Why not keep Kumerow

[SCBills]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But what does “all things equal” mean to you in this context?

If all 3 impress and it’s a tough decision for 1 spot… I’d give the speed guy the edge, simply because a burner is the one element we don’t have on the outside. 

[krf139]

Trade him to the Packers for a first 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

All things equal, I’d take Stevenson over Kumerow and Hodgins.  
 

We have a QB with the most electric arm in the NFL, and we’ve still barely seen him with a speed threat - outside of Hobbly Brown. 

 

 

In a world where the more highly regarded college "prospect" is always the better player........yep, Stevenson should be the guy.

 

Unfortunately,   Stevenson wastes motion that most of the veterans in camp do not at this point.........which negates some of his speed/quickness.

 

If you take a good long look around the league there is no shortage of guys on roster bubbles with similar raw tools to Stevenson.     The NFL has been absolutely bombarded with WR talent in the past few drafts.    

 

The right play at this point is to take the guy who is best for them THIS season.

[without a drought]

Should they finish camp and the preseason or just make all their roster moves now.

[SCBills]

7 minutes ago, without a drought said:

Should they finish camp and the preseason or just make all their roster moves now.

Now.. and I’d prefer they get this stadium situation sorted out by the weekend as well. 

[ganesh]

On 8/2/2021 at 4:08 AM, JerseyBills said:

They are taking a serious look.. 

 

My question is - Is Hodgins safe on the practice squad in year 2? I forget the eligibility requirements.

I feel like he's going to be a very good WR and can replace Sanders next year as a long term option.

He is a 7th round draft pick who missed his rookie season.  I am really surprised that people are making them look like 1st round draft picks.   Most of the teams practice squad players remain PS players for their own team.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

If all 3 impress and it’s a tough decision for 1 spot… I’d give the speed guy the edge, simply because a burner is the one element we don’t have on the outside. 

 

OK, I’m going to sound like I’m nitpicking you but that’s not the intent.....what do you mean by “all 3 impress”?

 

As WR?  For what aspects of WR play?  Can they all block being the LOS?  Downfield?  Can they all run a complete route tree?

Do they all play ST?  What role on ST?

 

A lot of folks here were absolutely thrilled with Foster and his burner speed.  But in games, it turned out he couldn’t get a clean release and would get bumped or held, throwing off his timing...and he struggled to track the ball in the air AND run full tilt.  Plus, he couldn’t run other routes well and was not so hot at blocking, so it was kind of “OK, Foster’s in, they’re gonna try a deep shot”.

 

I understand what I think you’re getting at...you can’t coach speed, so if you can take a speed guy and coach him up to play up to his speed and run crisp, fluid routes and release well off the line, you have a rare, valuable asset.

 

The problem is on our roster, to win this year, we only have so many spots for guys who may be rare,valuable assets next year or in 2 years

[Turk71]

I know Rodgers was pissed when Green Bay cut him. He had just praised Kumerow to reporters and said he was a lock 2 days before they cut him. Rodgers said that drove him nuts and demanded in on personnel decisions. It definitely added to the rift. This was all according to Rappaport I think.

  So if the Bills don't want him it sounds like Rodgers might.

  His great grandpa was a Chicago mob boss Tony Accardo who came up through the ranks from street hoodlum to run the  Chicago Outfit after Capone for 25 years. 'Big Tuna' 

 Not relevant I realize, but interesting nonetheless.

[Coach Tuesday]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

In a world where the more highly regarded college "prospect" is always the better player........yep, Stevenson should be the guy.

 

Unfortunately,   Stevenson wastes motion that most of the veterans in camp do not at this point.........which negates some of his speed/quickness.

 

If you take a good long look around the league there is no shortage of guys on roster bubbles with similar raw tools to Stevenson.     The NFL has been absolutely bombarded with WR talent in the past few drafts.    

 

The right play at this point is to take the guy who is best for them THIS season.

And don’t forget, last year’s scouting process was abridged - many of these teams never got to study him live.  He’s a safer PS stash this year, anyhow.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Turk71 said:

I know Rodgers was pissed when Green Bay cut him. He had just praised Kumerow to reporters and said he was a lock 2 days before they cut him. Rodgers said that drove him nuts and demanded in on personnel decisions. It definitely added to the rift. This was all according to Rappaport I think.

  So if the Bills don't want him it sounds like Rodgers might.

  His great grandpa was a Chicago mob boss Tony Accardo who came up through the ranks from street hoodlum to run the  Chicago Outfit after Capone for 25 years. 'Big Tuna' 

 Not relevant I realize, but interesting nonetheless.

 

That part of the story is interesting but the fact that John Bosa married Eric Kumerow's sister.........both players having been ineffective 16th overall first round selections in successive drafts(87', 88') for the Dolphins.......is quite a story in itself.    Those guys not panning out for Shula had a very positive impact on the Bills SB years.    

[JerseyBills]

14 hours ago, ganesh said:

He is a 7th round draft pick who missed his rookie season.  I am really surprised that people are making them look like 1st round draft picks.   Most of the teams practice squad players remain PS players for their own team.

Ya true but he strikes me as someone a WR needy team would take a chance on. 

I just have hope that he can be a guy that can produce a bit if we get injuries. 

Davis was late 4th rounder and looks like a stud and Hodgins has something most our WR lack- size. 

Either way we are spoiled at the WR position.  This O with a full training camp will only be better than last year imo

[Rochesterfan]

On 8/1/2021 at 10:39 PM, BigAl2526 said:

Kumerow is making a strong case for himself.  At the bottom end of your depth chart, you may be looking a bit toward the future.  I would expect if Isaiah Hodgins or Marquez Stevenson can grade out similarly to Kumerow through training camp and preseason, their youth would be seen as a plus.  Kumerow has to be enough better than those two younger players that the Bills have to opt for the advantage Kumerow gives them this season.

 

Kumerow does not need to be better to make the squad - he needs to provide something different than the other two and he has been doing that on special teams.

 

If Stevenson wants to win out and make the roster - it is going to come from kick returning duty.  That is his standout point and where he can differentiate himself.

 

Kumerow is already showing out as gunner and as a potential special teams player - so unless Stevenson really picks it up - I think Kumerow has an advantage.

 

Hodgkins - I have not heard much on special teams - so my guess is he is potentially drawing a short straw right now.  
 

None of the 3 make the roster as a WR strictly - they already have 4 guys in that role.  If McKenzie wins both Kick and punt return - then I think Stevenson and Hodgkins are practice squad bound.

[BillsFanForever19]

 

Maybe they are trying him out at Tight End after all.

[Turk71]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

That part of the story is interesting but the fact that John Bosa married Eric Kumerow's sister.........both players having been ineffective 16th overall first round selections in successive drafts(87', 88') for the Dolphins.......is quite a story in itself.    Those guys not panning out for Shula had a very positive impact on the Bills SB years.    

I skipped over the Bosa 1st cousin connection assuming people were well aware. I didn't realize the elder Bosa and Kumerow were successive, identical first round picks for Miami though.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, Turk71 said:

I skipped over the Bosa 1st cousin connection assuming people were well aware. I didn't realize the elder Bosa and Kumerow were successive, identical first round picks for Miami though.

 

Yeah everybody has heard about the Bosa brothers grandpa being a mob boss........they get a lot of attention because they are star players.........but that's the Kumerow side.   John Bosa was from New Hampshire.    Eric Kumerow came out of HS in Chicago and he and his sister both attended Ohio State.    That's how the Bosa boys ended up at Ohio State despite living in SFLA.    If Jake Kumerow turns into a key contributor we can thank them for him..........but we can always thank the two former 1st rounders for all of those beatings that the Bills gave Tom Olivadotti defenses.

[ColoradoBills]

On 8/2/2021 at 12:23 AM, BillsFanForever19 said:

We're talking about a guy who has been cut 4 times in the past year (once by GB, once by us, twice by NO). He's had some reported good practices. But so has Stevenson.

 

That is all true but there is some points that need to be made.

1.  GB cut him but we all know how Rodgers felt about that.

2.  The Bills did cut him but that was situational.  First they protected him 2 times during the season.  Then they activated for gameday twice.

The rules were a PS player could only be called up 2 times.  After they used that up the only way he could play again for the Bills was to

put him permanently on the 53 roster for what would have amounted to the rest of the season.  Not much of a choice but to cut him.

3.  NO picked him up as insurance if their starters couldn't go in the playoffs.  That wasn't necessary so he was released.

 

I'm not saying he will or should be kept on the Bills.  I'm just showing that players on the bubble get cut for different reasons.

I wish him luck and hope he has a great camp and preseason.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

That is all true but there is some points that need to be made.

1.  GB cut him but we all know how Rodgers felt about that.

2.  The Bills did cut him but that was situational.  First they protected him 2 times during the season.  Then they activated for gameday twice.

The rules were a PS player could only be called up 2 times.  After they used that up the only way he could play again for the Bills was to

put him permanently on the 53 roster for what would have amounted to the rest of the season.  Not much of a choice but to cut him.

 

I’m not sure what you mean by “put him permanently on the 53 man roster” but the fact is Kumerow did spend 6 weeks on the Bills 53 man roster last season, active for game day, while John Brown was on IR then the Covid list.  When his 2 call ups ran out, they kept him on the roster for 3 games.

 

When Brown was activated for the final regular season game, that’s when the Bills cut him and NO claimed him.

 

 

 

[ColoradoBills]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

When Brown was activated for the final regular season game, that’s when the Bills cut him and NO claimed him.

 

 

He had used up his call ups.  I doubt seriously they waived him because of his poor play.

 

[transplantbillsfan]

On 8/2/2021 at 5:08 PM, ganesh said:

He is a 7th round draft pick who missed his rookie season.  I am really surprised that people are making them look like 1st round draft picks.   Most of the teams practice squad players remain PS players for their own team.

 

Hodgins was a 6th round pick who was viewed as more of a "value" pick than our actual rookie impact WR Gabe Davis by many of the talking heads.

 

All that said, I think Kumerow is pretty well solidifying his roster spot simply because of his ST ability. Unless GB offers a fairly high draft pick (3rd or 4th round at least) I think he's our ST ace with the ability to play WR with injuries.

 

And since McKenzie sounds like he's absolutely tearing up camp, the only question remaining is whether we keep 6 or 7 WRs... and if we keep 7, which WR makes the team...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Duke Williams or Tanner Gentry...?

[Turk71]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yeah everybody has heard about the Bosa brothers grandpa being a mob boss........they get a lot of attention because they are star players.........but that's the Kumerow side.   John Bosa was from New Hampshire.    Eric Kumerow came out of HS in Chicago and he and his sister both attended Ohio State.    That's how the Bosa boys ended up at Ohio State despite living in SFLA.    If Jake Kumerow turns into a key contributor we can thank them for him..........but we can always thank the two former 1st rounders for all of those beatings that the Bills gave Tom Olivadotti defenses.

Eric Kumerow's dad is Palmer Pyle, a former guard for the Colts, Vikings, and Raiders. Makes Jake 3rd gen NFLer.

[machine gun kelly]

On 8/2/2021 at 9:00 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Last year we had Diggs/Brown/Beasley/Davis/McKenzie/Roberts

 

This year we have Diggs/Sanders/Beasley/Davis.  It all depends upon how things shake out - if McKenzie wins the KR/PR job and also gets time on the gadget plays and as the backup to Beasley in the slot, then the door opens for another WR to be on the roster.  Kumerow, as a big target with veteran savvy who can contribute on ST, would be a very reasonable choice.  To beat him out, I think Stevenson or Hodgins have to be ready to contribute more as WR AND contribute on teams (again, this is assuming that McKenzie wins the KR/PR job)

 

I commented that I'd seen some good blocking in the backfield by Kumerow in another thread and said I'd look for some clips.

Here's one of Kumerow (#16) on the blindside handling Jadaveon Clowney:

 

Here's another one of Kumerow in the backfield just erasing Panthers safety Eric Reid to spring a nice run play.  Wipes him all the way across and takes him out of the play (about :50 in if you wanna skip the GB hype). 

 

Bonus: nice ST tackle at 1:40

 

 

If McKenzie doesn't claim the KR/PR spot - if, for example, Stefenson or Powell claim one or the other or both - then of course the situation changes.

It just seems to me you’re 5th and 6th WR’s have to be ST players who can due to injury play of absolutely necessary as a WR.  So who are the best two to play ST?  McKenzie (history of fumbling punts but maybe he has improved it not), Stephenson, Hodgins, or Kunerow.

 

We’ll see in camp, but Duke is all but gone.  I trust McD will figure it out.  If I had to guess it would be Stephenson and McKenzie and others might be offered PS.

[Simon Says]

On 7/31/2021 at 6:50 PM, BillsFanForever19 said:

Why not? Because you generally only keep 5-6 WR's at a time. I've seen us carry 7 once or twice, but it's not very common. Plus, this season everyone wants us to keep a 6th Defensive End and a 6th Cornerback as well. And you can't keep an extra guy at all these positions without severely hindering the 53 at depth in a number of places to make it happen. 

 

So long story short, which two players do you cut at WR when your roster looks like this?

 

Stefon Diggs

Cole Beasley

Emmanuel Sanders

Gabe Davis

Isaiah McKenzie

Marquez Stevenson (2021 Draft Pick)

Isaiah Hodgins (2020 Draft Pick)

Jake Kumerow

 

I'm a Kumerow fan. But we're so deep, it's really uphill sledding for him.

Special teams is a consideration.  McKenzie  Stevenson and the rarely-mentioned Brandon Powell are competing for KO/ PR duties. 

On 7/31/2021 at 10:17 PM, TPS said:

I think the early buzz was about Hodgins, so Kumerow was overlooked or forgotten to some extent, despite the fact that Hodgins hasn't played an NFL game. One of the two will make the 53, and Kumerow is the odds on favorite because of his experience and ST ability.  I don't think it will be all that difficult to get Hodgins on the PS since he's a 7th round draft pick that hasn't played an NFL game, and he needs that experience.

 

I think the WRs will be Diggs, Sanders, Beasley, Davis, McKenzie, and Kumerow, with Hodgins and Stevenson on the PS.

Who do you think returns punts and kickoffs? McKenzie might be the PR but isn't handling both. Could Breida or Taiwan Jones be the kickoff returner?

[TPS]

1 hour ago, Georgie said:

Special teams is a consideration.  McKenzie  Stevenson and the rarely-mentioned Brandon Powell are competing for KO/ PR duties. 

Who do you think returns punts and kickoffs? McKenzie might be the PR but isn't handling both. Could Breida or Taiwan Jones be the kickoff returner?

Why can't McKenzie handle both? 

[stevewin]

17 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

Kumerow is already showing out as gunner and as a potential special teams player - so unless Stevenson really picks it up - I think Kumerow has an advantage.

Wouldn't mind if Kumerow took Taiwan's spot on ST - I hate reserving a spot for a ST-only player if you can get someone who will also contribute on off/def to do it at least competently.  Replace Jones and you can keep another position player.

 

I think the reports that Kumerow has been lining up at other positions, his ST contribution, McD's glue comment, and the fact that he's standing out at WR in camp make his chances look pretty good at this point 

[Rochesterfan]

1 minute ago, stevewin said:

Wouldn't mind if Kumerow took Taiwan's spot on ST - I hate reserving a spot for a ST-only player if you can get someone who will also contribute on off/def to do it at least competently.  Replace Jones and you can keep another position player.

 

I think the reports that Kumerow has been lining up at other positions, his ST contribution, McD's glue comment, and the fact that he's standing out at WR in camp make his chances look pretty good at this point 

 

I think a lot of people feel this way, but when you replace a “ST only” player with someone that you think will contribute - most often you are going to be disappointed in the fact that the contributor will essentially become a new “ST only” player not both a ST players and a contributor.  
 

I only do it if the players are super close on special teams.  For example - if the Bills feel Kumerow is just as good of a gunner or at least very close because the added benefit of Kumerow as a #7 WR versus Jones as a #4 RB are minimal - neither are going to see much live game action outside of Special teams.

 

Even McKenzie winning the kick and punt returns will most likely put a dent in his offense play numbers.

 

It does help in cases of injury during a game, but for example Jones when given a chance at RB has shown himself to be competent and actually has proven to be very good at receiving out of the backfield, but like Tasker years ago - his ability on special teams means you rarely get to see that side.  
 

The same thing will happen if Jones is replaced by Kumerow - suddenly Kumerow becomes Andre Roberts - a Special teams guy that would struggle in the offensive flow because of the time needed to master special teams.

 

Every team has a core group of guys that become basically special teams mavens and we rarely see them do anything else - most are capable of playing on offense or defense if given the opportunity and allowed to prepare like other players, but you give that up to a degree to study and prepare for the role on special teams.

[warrior9]

On 8/4/2021 at 7:54 AM, Rochesterfan said:

 

I think a lot of people feel this way, but when you replace a “ST only” player with someone that you think will contribute - most often you are going to be disappointed in the fact that the contributor will essentially become a new “ST only” player not both a ST players and a contributor.  
 

I only do it if the players are super close on special teams.  For example - if the Bills feel Kumerow is just as good of a gunner or at least very close because the added benefit of Kumerow as a #7 WR versus Jones as a #4 RB are minimal - neither are going to see much live game action outside of Special teams.

 

Even McKenzie winning the kick and punt returns will most likely put a dent in his offense play numbers.

 

It does help in cases of injury during a game, but for example Jones when given a chance at RB has shown himself to be competent and actually has proven to be very good at receiving out of the backfield, but like Tasker years ago - his ability on special teams means you rarely get to see that side.  
 

The same thing will happen if Jones is replaced by Kumerow - suddenly Kumerow becomes Andre Roberts - a Special teams guy that would struggle in the offensive flow because of the time needed to master special teams.

 

Every team has a core group of guys that become basically special teams mavens and we rarely see them do anything else - most are capable of playing on offense or defense if given the opportunity and allowed to prepare like other players, but you give that up to a degree to study and prepare for the role on special teams.

 

This is where I'm struggling. Admittedly, I haven't seen Kumerow in practice so I can't say either way. What I will say is.. if they keep Kumerow over Jones, he will be WAY more impactful than Roberts was on offense. He's better in almost every facet of being a WR.

 

I'm struggling because Kumerow is 29. Do we want him taking potential snaps(or a roster spot) from Stevenson/ Hodgins if they are of equal ability? I don't think either will last on practice squad (Stevenson definitely wouldn't). If Kumerow making the team doesn't affect that.... why not? 

[foreboding]

Well at least there will be some Pre-season fun! 

 

Will Jesus make the team?

Is UK Wade ready to breakout?

Can Fromm hit the broadside of a barn?

[ctk232]

On 7/31/2021 at 6:50 PM, BillsFanForever19 said:

Why not? Because you generally only keep 5-6 WR's at a time. I've seen us carry 7 once or twice, but it's not very common. Plus, this season everyone wants us to keep a 6th Defensive End and a 6th Cornerback as well. And you can't keep an extra guy at all these positions without severely hindering the 53 at depth in a number of places to make it happen. 

 

So long story short, which two players do you cut at WR when your roster looks like this?

 

Stefon Diggs

Cole Beasley

Emmanuel Sanders

Gabe Davis

Isaiah McKenzie

Marquez Stevenson (2021 Draft Pick)

Isaiah Hodgins (2020 Draft Pick)

Jake Kumerow

 

I'm a Kumerow fan. But we're so deep, it's really uphill sledding for him.

Don’t forget Gentry, Powell, and Williams. But even so, how is it uphill? PS for Stevenson and likely Hodgins (pending eligibility). Kumerow into that 6th and rest are cut.
 

Outside your top 5 there the argument would be not only is Kumerow’s receiving skill comparable with Stevenson and Hodgins, he adds size over both. At times he plays like a versatile, coordinated TE in how he runs routes and competes for catches. Furthermore, what will likely be more of the deciding factor in Kumerow making the roster over others is his ability to play ST at a competitive level in addition to his receiving ability. He outplayed Taiwan Jones for the stretch he was out at gunner last year, even when Jones was cleared to return. 
 

All this to say I wouldn’t be surprised in the least to see Kumerow at the 6th spot due to his greater utility as an actual roster player versus just a position player. Depending on how we line up at KR/PR it sounds like McKenzie might be the guy given Powell’s performance in camp thus far, and Stevenson might be called up from PS if needed, but otherwise haven’t heard/seen much to indicate otherwise.

[skibum]

If Kumerow is really as good as everyone wants him to be, would having him and McKenzie (and everyone else) allow the Bills to trade Beasley and his Twitter account for a stud player? Beasley's a great player, no doubt; but is he really on the Untouchables list?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 8/4/2021 at 6:54 AM, Rochesterfan said:

I think a lot of people feel this way, but when you replace a “ST only” player with someone that you think will contribute - most often you are going to be disappointed in the fact that the contributor will essentially become a new “ST only” player not both a ST players and a contributor.  
 

I only do it if the players are super close on special teams.  For example - if the Bills feel Kumerow is just as good of a gunner or at least very close because the added benefit of Kumerow as a #7 WR versus Jones as a #4 RB are minimal - neither are going to see much live game action outside of Special teams.

 

Even McKenzie winning the kick and punt returns will most likely put a dent in his offense play numbers.

 

It does help in cases of injury during a game, but for example Jones when given a chance at RB has shown himself to be competent and actually has proven to be very good at receiving out of the backfield, but like Tasker years ago - his ability on special teams means you rarely get to see that side.

 

I agree with the first part.  A backup offensive or defensive player doesn't usually become an offensive or defensive contributor - unless someone is hurt. 

 

This last is the part where I think a lot of people would disagree.  I don't think Jones has shown himself to be that competent as an RB and he was 0 for 2 catching passes last season. 

 

I think part of people's concern with Jones isn't so much that we don't see him contribute on offense too often, but that he's 33, and if Beane is going to talk about hitting on younger, cheaper talent - sooner or later the coaches have to fall in line with that and actually give a roster spot to a young, developmental player instead of an older ST specialist who has had his cameos on offense and hasn't made good. 

 

Yes, the younger guys may not be as good on ST but at some point we have to prioritize developing talent.

 

McDermott said something at one point last season, to the effect that coaches don't like to play rookies because it's a lot more work preparing them for the game, but "we have to get through that".  (This was just before Epenesa started to get more snaps)

 

19 minutes ago, skibum said:

If Kumerow is really as good as everyone wants him to be, would having him and McKenzie (and everyone else) allow the Bills to trade Beasley and his Twitter account for a stud player? Beasley's a great player, no doubt; but is he really on the Untouchables list?

 

Yes, I think he is, and no reports out of camp have made anyone think differently.