Allen's commitment to be the best and work ethic on display again

[Buffalo Boy]

11 hours ago, Warcodered said:

If there is a big difference between them I'd say it's that Josh coming up through college and into the NFL was told he'd fail that he wasn't good enough he's been working to prove himself right the whole time.

   I heard Darnold do his first interview with the local guys in Charlotte and he sounded exactly like Rob Johnson. 
   Zero energy, zero leadership, terrible. Darnold doesn’t have “ IT”. 

[Buffalo Boy]

10 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

That Athletic article is pretty awesome. It's one of those worthy of subscription.

 

I must say, though... it leaves me with one worry:

 

Palmer is stressing the importance of "All 16 go into the ground" as an emphasis on using the ground as a way to take the load of your arm. 

 

Is it possible that this creates a higher likelihood of severe leg injuries? When you're on your toes, you're more nimble and loose. When your feet are planted flat and basically dug in, basic physics tell me bad things are a comin if someone attacks those legs...

Kinetic chain.

All energy comes up from the ground.

Try throwing on your tip toes or falling backwards.

Josh has relied on his Arm Talent which will wear out if used improperly. 
Instead of throwing with his arm he is being taught to load his whole body optimally.

Leg injuries are always a fear but I’d say that the designed runs are a heck of a side more dangerous than proper throwing mechanics.

[thenorthremembers]

23 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

There's a new article in The Athletic that details the high tech equipment Palmer is using to help his QB clients improve their biomechanics.  The Athletic is a subscription service that I highly recommend.  As an out of towner the only subscriptions I pay for are the Buffalo News and The Athletic.  

 

"Josh Allen is firing one perfect pass after another to a trio of receivers some 25 yards downfield. As the Bills star hones his mechanics, a few feet away private QB coach Jordan Palmer observes every little maneuver while two other young NFL quarterbacks loosen up. On the sideline there is almost a quarter-million dollars’ worth of high-tech equipment that is another part of Palmer’s unique quarterback ecosystem."

 

https://theathletic.com/2719015/2021/07/23/this-technology-could-give-bills-qb-josh-allen-and-bengals-qb-joe-burrow-a-big-boost-in-their-nfl-careers/?source=freedailyemail

 

As a Bills fan it's gratifying to see Josh continue to work hard to improve. How many QBs who finish second in the league MVP voting spend a portion of their next off season continuing to work with a private QB coach? It's this commitment to be the best and the work ethic to make it happen that gives me hope for the Buffalo Bills going forward.

Contrast this with Baker Mayfields' attitude. Remember the end of season press conference in 2019 when asked by the press if he was going to hire a private QB tutor after his lackluster sophomore season, he answered that he wouldn't;

“I do not need somebody to teach me how to do a three-step drop,” Mayfield said. “I can look at film and be critical of myself."

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/12/27/baker-mayfield-says-hell-be-working-hard-this-offseason-but-not-with-a-qb-tutor/

Baker has real talent and played great last year in his new system, but I think his ceiling is limited by his hubris. I think we've seen Mayfields' best ball already. I don't think that's the case with Josh Allen.

 

 

Baker's ceiling isnt limitrled by hubris, its limited by his limited physical traits.  Given the same work ethic Baker can never be Josh Allen.   We cant pretend to know what Baker does during the offseason.  We see Josh because his QB coach is all over the media.  

[Frat-Train]

Just now, thenorthremembers said:

Baker's ceiling isnt limitrled by hubris, its limited by his limited physical traits.  Given the same work ethic Baker can never be Josh Allen.   We cant pretend to know what Baker does during the offseason.  We see Josh because his QB coach is all over the media.  

Baker’s ego seems to write checks his talent can’t cash.  It kinda fires me up how much he’s gushed over, since he’s never had less than a stellar arsenal of talent around him, yet hasn’t (in my mind at least) lived up to expectations.  He’s already being gushed over for the upcoming season, as well.  Josh has generational talent, to your point.  But that aside, his answer of “I don’t need to work on my craft” (I know, I generalized), really shows something about who he is.  Josh is just the total package.  So glad Beane ignored me when I screamed “Rosen”, at my TV.  

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Oh I remember, because I absolutely hated Rosen and had him ranked last of the top 5 projected first rounders.  People were losing their minds around d here defending Rosen.  Living in LA, it was pretty well known what douche he was on and off the field, lack of passion for the game, and  poor leadership skills.  I had several friends who personally vouched for that having known him in some capacity.

 

I had my rankings on draft night Baker, Allen, Darnold, Lamar……….and way down the list Rosen.  And even though I had Darnold over Lamar, I preferred drafting Lamar over Darnold because I felt his ceiling was higher even though his floor was lower in terms of risk on how he would project to NFL.  Even started a thread titled “My case for Lamar” if Baker and Allen were gone and we could stay put and not trade up and take Lamar.

 

But once the news was clear Browns were gonna draft Baker, I was all in on the do anything to get Josh Allen train.  And now he is already my favorite Bills player to watch play of all time.  Him and Barry Sanders are my two favorites to watch play of all time because on any given play they can do something seemingly impossible or mind blowing like no other.

Oddly, I actually remember that thread. That was a good call. Lamar gets a LOT of hate. Kind of reminds me of Mike Vick in a lot of ways, but with a much better team around him + less of a dirt bag. Anyways, when Vick went to Philly I feel he reached his full potential. The Ravens are at a crossroad. They need to open the offense up more and let Lamar do his thing even if it leads to some stupid decisions once in awhile. Running QB shelf lives are much shorter than your classic pocket guys. He needs to do what Josh Allen and Russell Wilson do and use his legs when necessary simultaneously keeping the defense honest. 
 

I liked Baker Mayfield because of his accuracy, the fact that he was a walk on, and his DGAF attitude. He seemed like a good fit for a small market team like the Bills or Browns. I didn’t (and still don’t) think he will ever become elite, but possibly a borderline top 10 guy that could bring stability to a team that lacked a good passer for a long time. 
 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

15 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

I do not get your point.  How does an individual's quest to be great track with how an organization manages its business in a two decade run of excellence?  Josh's back story is part of what makes him who he is.  As he has often said "You bloom where you are planted."  Family, Firebaugh, coaches at every level, Reedley, Wyoming, the Bill and his unique situation with Palmer.  Surround yourself with people that believe in you wherever you can find them and bust your butt to give them the satisfaction of being right.

 

 

There is not ONE way for football players or teams to become great.    

 

Many come from very rough circumstances and turn those adverse "non-nurturing" situations into the fuel for their greatness.   

 

The most significant player the Bills developed in the drought era was Jason Peters..........a future HOF'er and greatly respected teammate..........that dude didn't give his best at Arkansas..........got sabotaged by his college coaches in the draft process...........went undrafted to a terrible organization.........and still became an All Pro LT in almost no time after only being a TE in college.

 

Your corporate/self-help strategy sounds great........works for some...........but you can get nurtured by a figurative pair of grass-fed DDD teets and it ain't gonna' keep you from being dominated on the field by a guy like Peters.    

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

18 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Oddly, I actually remember that thread. That was a good call. Lamar gets a LOT of hate. Kind of reminds me of Mike Vick in a lot of ways, but with a much better team around him + less of a dirt bag. Anyways, when Vick went to Philly I feel he reached his full potential. The Ravens are at a crossroad. They need to open the offense up more and let Lamar do his thing even if it leads to some stupid decisions once in awhile. Running QB shelf lives are much shorter than your classic pocket guys. He needs to do what Josh Allen and Russell Wilson do and use his legs when necessary simultaneously keeping the defense honest. 
 

I liked Baker Mayfield because of his accuracy, the fact that he was a walk on, and his DGAF attitude. He seemed like a good fit for a small market team like the Bills or Browns. I didn’t (and still don’t) think he will ever become elite, but possibly a borderline top 10 guy that could bring stability to a team that lacked a good passer for a long time. 
 

 

 

Good stuff all around in your reply here

 

Baker coming out for me was the safest pick to be a quality QB in the NFL.  I too felt his history fit well with a team like Bills or Browns.  I was on the Baker train early in the CFB season and even pegged him as the Bills QB in the draft because back then he was more considered later first or second round by most, but kept moving up the boards during the season.

 

Once the season was over, I was sure we couldn't get Baker without a big trade up.  Allen was not one I was high on at all until the offseason, didnt see him play much.  But I was intrigued by his buzz...then he won me over with his massive improvements in short work leading up to the draft and his insane combine.  By the time the draft was approaching, he had over taken everyone but Baker who just felt more ready to play and had a lower floor even though Josh by far had the highest ceiling.  

 

Feel the same about Lamar...he took the league by storm with his unmatched athletic ability as a QB in the NFL right now, but at some point he needs to make the next big progression as a passer in order to have sustained success.  Like you pointed out, the best version we saw of Vick as a more complete QB when he was in Philly and was much improved as a passer to go with his ability with his legs.  

 

Like I said during and after Lamars MVP season, the offense was too gimmicky to sustain that level of effectiveness.  Once defenses caught up to it and figured out a better way to defend it, the offense and Lamar were going to be inconsistent.  He needs to now take that step as a pocket passer, and if he does, he will be amongst the best in the league for the rest of his career.

 

But that also is a function of the talent around him, so this will be an interesting year for Lamar as a passer given this is the best cast he has had yet in terms of targets to throw to.  Wonder if Baltimore still runs the same style of offense or opens it up more to see what he can handle

[Boxcar]

3 hours ago, Frat-Train said:

Baker’s ego seems to write checks his talent can’t cash.  It kinda fires me up how much he’s gushed over, since he’s never had less than a stellar arsenal of talent around him, yet hasn’t (in my mind at least) lived up to expectations.  He’s already being gushed over for the upcoming season, as well.  Josh has generational talent, to your point.  But that aside, his answer of “I don’t need to work on my craft” (I know, I generalized), really shows something about who he is.  Josh is just the total package.  So glad Beane ignored me when I screamed “Rosen”, at my TV.  

A large part of this thread should be a cautionary tale to NEVER attach yourself to any college prospect. If the paid pundits hardly ever get it right, why do fans go apepoop whenever the guy they want is passed on? I've experienced it on two boards in two completely different sports and I'll never really understand it. Even something like the Leatherwood pick, the worst you could say is that the Raiders should have traded down, but you can never know for sure. If a guy is your guy, you take him when the chance is there. Fan insight into the players is extremely limited.

5 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

My analysis in 2018 was not on the mark.  It was something like this:

 

Allen - A most likely losing lottery ticket who can’t throw. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off 

This wasn't off. You said he was a lottery ticket that was most likely to lose. This is correct, as it is with all raw prospects. Just happens that we hit the jackpot, a possibility you allowed in your assessment.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Kinetic chain.

All energy comes up from the ground.

Try throwing on your tip toes or falling backwards.

Josh has relied on his Arm Talent which will wear out if used improperly. 
Instead of throwing with his arm he is being taught to load his whole body optimally.

Leg injuries are always a fear but I’d say that the designed runs are a heck of a side more dangerous than proper throwing mechanics.

 

I don't know if he'll change anything this year, but last year Josh was actually adding a little hop in his throwing motion after Aaron Rodgers:

https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2020/12/bills-josh-allen-details-why-he-took-something-from-aaron-rodgers-throwing-mechanics.html

 

And at times he'd actually jump and throw

[Buffalo Boy]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't know if he'll change anything this year, but last year Josh was actually adding a little hop in his throwing motion after Aaron Rodgers:

https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2020/12/bills-josh-allen-details-why-he-took-something-from-aaron-rodgers-throwing-mechanics.html

 

And at times he'd actually jump and throw

You sure he didn’t get it from Flutie😜

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Buffalo Boy said:

You sure he didn’t get it from Flutie😜

 

I'm going by who he said he studied, in the linked article

[BigAl2526]

On 7/23/2021 at 3:53 PM, Utah John said:

I am so glad to hear about this.  Allen worked with Palmer the previous two offseasons and the results were as amazing as we could have hoped for.  I wondered a little whether Allen would continue to bear down, working to maintain what he got right previously and to improve where possible.  I'm delighted to hear that Allen is back at it.

 

Allen's good friend is Sam Darnold, and Darnold also worked with Palmer in previous offseasons.  But Darnold didn't put in the same effort.  When Palmer corrected Allen about something, he'd work on that point over and over to make sure he got it right.  Darnold would do it once and call it good.  Darnold never really had a chance in New Jersey with their clown car coach, but he didn't do himself any favors either.

Sam Darnold also had the handicap of having an idiot head coach.  I don't think Darnold has had the same benefit of continuity as Josh Allen .  Josh has had Brian Daboll's offense for 3 years.  I'm not sure who Darnold's offensive coordinators have been, but he's had more than one.  In comparison to Josh Allen, I do think Sam Darnold is more laid back while Josh Allen is driven.  That may in part because Darnold was something of a "golden child" at USC and didn't to work as hard to have college success, while Josh Allen had to claw his way from high school to junior college to Wyoming.

[just1hugheser]

Nice post, totally agree

 

Arent you glad I added something so profound to the thread?

[JESSEFEFFER]

18 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

There is not ONE way for football players or teams to become great.    

 

Many come from very rough circumstances and turn those adverse "non-nurturing" situations into the fuel for their greatness.   

 

The most significant player the Bills developed in the drought era was Jason Peters..........a future HOF'er and greatly respected teammate..........that dude didn't give his best at Arkansas..........got sabotaged by his college coaches in the draft process...........went undrafted to a terrible organization.........and still became an All Pro LT in almost no time after only being a TE in college.

 

Your corporate/self-help strategy sounds great........works for some...........but you can get nurtured by a figurative pair of grass-fed DDD teets and it ain't gonna' keep you from being dominated on the field by a guy like Peters.    

 

 

 

I respond with this.

 

Mouse McNally and Jason Peters

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

22 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Baker's ceiling isnt limitrled by hubris, its limited by his limited physical traits.  Given the same work ethic Baker can never be Josh Allen.   We cant pretend to know what Baker does during the offseason.  We see Josh because his QB coach is all over the media.  

Brady is also pretty limited physically. Incredibly slow, GOOD (not elite) arm, derpy looking frame, etc. None of that matters. Baker could never emulate Allen’s playing style or running ability, but I don’t agree w/ the whole “ceiling” thing w/ QBs. I’ve seen too many Brady’s and Montanas in my lifetime. Do I think Baker will ever become as good as Allen? Heck no. Just don’t write him off bc of his smaller frame & arm. What he lacks in those areas, he makes up for in accuracy which is THE most important thing along w/ leadership. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Feel the same about Lamar...he took the league by storm with his unmatched athletic ability as a QB in the NFL right now, but at some point he needs to make the next big progression as a passer in order to have sustained success.  Like you pointed out, the best version we saw of Vick as a more complete QB when he was in Philly and was much improved as a passer to go with his ability with his legs.  

 

Like I said during and after Lamars MVP season, the offense was too gimmicky to sustain that level of effectiveness.  Once defenses caught up to it and figured out a better way to defend it, the offense and Lamar were going to be inconsistent.  He needs to now take that step as a pocket passer, and if he does, he will be amongst the best in the league for the rest of his career.

 

But that also is a function of the talent around him, so this will be an interesting year for Lamar as a passer given this is the best cast he has had yet in terms of targets to throw to.  Wonder if Baltimore still runs the same style of offense or opens it up more to see what he can handle

 

There's a meta-question there, which is "can Baltimore, with Greg Roman as OC, run a more effective passing game?"

Without the talent level of Lamar....these are the questions raised when Greg Roman was OC in Buffalo, "can they sustain that level of effectiveness without a better passing game?"  Several of the more football-steeped commentators and several of the more football knowledgeable here critiqued the fundamental design of the passing game, saying what was happening downfield was out-of-sync with what was happening behind the LOS.

With David Culley being marketed successfully to the Texans, the Ravens made the interesting move of giving their long time secondary coach, Chris Hewitt, the title of passing game coordinator.  Leaving aside the question "if you give one guy the job two guys have been putting in full time hours doing, how does that work?", it's a good question what his passing game concepts will be like.  He clearly oughtta know something about what elements of a passing game make it hard to defend. 

 

I'm not saying it's a bad move, I'm just saying from the coaching perspective, it's hard to predict the impact - is he gonna be kind of an apprentice, while Greg Roman takes on the real heavy lifting?  And if so, has Roman developed since his days in Buffalo (people do grow and learn)?

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

I respond with this.

 

Mouse McNally and Jason Peters

 

 

Funny that the rest of the Bills OL under McNally kinda' sucked.    Everyone has coaches........McNally was always a good OL coach but he also had one foot out the door when he was here.

 

Calling the 2000-2010 era Bills a "nurturing environment" is hilariously wrong.

 

As long as there has been football there have been people who become great despite not having your ideal conditions to do so.

 

Suggesting otherwise is nutty.

 

Josh Allen is and isn't an exception..........he is taking advantage of everything that he can to get better........that's awesome.........but he didn't have good instruction at the HS/JUCO/NCAA level........and that set his progress back............what he was able to do now is not possible for every NFL player that wants to rise to a great level.

[RobbRiddick]

On 7/24/2021 at 4:14 PM, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

As Allen will most likely get a contract soon, I took a stroll down memory lane in the Archives folder looking at the perceptions of Allen leading up to the draft.   Let's just say he was treated like he had lepresy because most people didn't take the time to watch his film, learn his history, current environment, etc.  They just took what the pundits said and ran with it.  However to give credit, there were several posters who started to catch on and realize he was worth being drafted by the Bills.  Now three years later these same fans are defending Allen tooth and nail using the same argument they neglected to see before.  It's great to see and all part of being a Bills fan.  

 

I'm not sure about the pre-draft stuff because I don't follow college ball so I had no idea who would be good and who wouldn't. I do think that Bills fans caught on to Allen's potential pretty soon into his rookie year.

 

Most of the 'experts' and fans of other teams say he was garbage his first two years and that even Bills fans wanted him gone, which is one of those lies that's just become an accepted truth now. I think most Bills fans fell in love with Allen when his ass went over Barr's head during the Vikings game. And you could see from the eye test that he had the It Factor.

 

I do remember being worried about him during his rookie season before his injury, because he didn't seem to be improving at all, and in a lot of ways had regressed. Then he came back against the Jags and looked so much better. That elbow injury turned out to be a blessing in disguise. But it does make me laugh when I hear the whole 'Allen sucked his first two years' because it shows most fans of other teams only watch the highlights and box scores, then just base their opinions on what the deadbeats at ESPN think. 

[Alphadawg7]

40 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

 

I'm not sure about the pre-draft stuff because I don't follow college ball so I had no idea who would be good and who wouldn't. I do think that Bills fans caught on to Allen's potential pretty soon into his rookie year.

 

Most of the 'experts' and fans of other teams say he was garbage his first two years and that even Bills fans wanted him gone, which is one of those lies that's just become an accepted truth now. I think most Bills fans fell in love with Allen when his ass went over Barr's head during the Vikings game. And you could see from the eye test that he had the It Factor.

 

I do remember being worried about him during his rookie season before his injury, because he didn't seem to be improving at all, and in a lot of ways had regressed. Then he came back against the Jags and looked so much better. That elbow injury turned out to be a blessing in disguise. But it does make me laugh when I hear the whole 'Allen sucked his first two years' because it shows most fans of other teams only watch the highlights and box scores, then just base their opinions on what the deadbeats at ESPN think. 

Oh totally agree.  The big “wrong Josh” crowd here became believers once the games begun, especially the Vikings game and the final 6 weeks of the season.  
 

The vast majority of the melt down happened from draft night until camp.  But once both Allen and Rosen hit the field, the wrong josh crowd started realizing they were wrong and converted to the Allen train pretty quickly with the bulk of the holdouts really coming around in the Vikings game.  Few held on to the wrong Josh narrative a little longer, but by the end of the Vikings game most the people here were either ecstatic about Josh or at least cautiously optimistic.  

[Don Otreply]

40 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

 

I'm not sure about the pre-draft stuff because I don't follow college ball so I had no idea who would be good and who wouldn't. I do think that Bills fans caught on to Allen's potential pretty soon into his rookie year.

 

Most of the 'experts' and fans of other teams say he was garbage his first two years and that even Bills fans wanted him gone, which is one of those lies that's just become an accepted truth now. I think most Bills fans fell in love with Allen when his ass went over Barr's head during the Vikings game. And you could see from the eye test that he had the It Factor.

 

I do remember being worried about him during his rookie season before his injury, because he didn't seem to be improving at all, and in a lot of ways had regressed. Then he came back against the Jags and looked so much better. That elbow injury turned out to be a blessing in disguise. But it does make me laugh when I hear the whole 'Allen sucked his first two years' because it shows most fans of other teams only watch the highlights and box scores, then just base their opinions on what the deadbeats at ESPN think. 

When it comes to people actually paying attention, it is a very small percentage, if you don’t believe me, look at the politicians that keep getting re-elected, by those same people 😂, it’s easier to parrot what ya heard versus doing the research yourself, most folk choose the parrot 🦜 …., 

 

We Bills fans are damn lucky to find ourselves in the position we are in right now…, I of course was way into these guys long before everyone else, 😆🤣😂

 

Go Bills!!!

[Victory Formation]

It’s kind of amazing how far Allen has come under the guidance of Jordan Palmer, who seemingly has a stellar reputation in the NFL as a top end QB coach. It’s kind of perplexing to me cause Palmer sucked as a player but is apparently a really great coach. I wonder why he didn’t do much as a player in the NFL? Regardless, his track record as a coach speaks for itself.

[Mat68]

1 hour ago, Victory Formation said:

It’s kind of amazing how far Allen has come under the guidance of Jordan Palmer, who seemingly has a stellar reputation in the NFL as a top end QB coach. It’s kind of perplexing to me cause Palmer sucked as a player but is apparently a really great coach. I wonder why he didn’t do much as a player in the NFL? Regardless, his track record as a coach speaks for itself.

Also, look at who else is at those camps.  Imo Jordan Palmer owes more to Allen than Allen owes Palmer.  Palmer has been a good fit for sure with him.  I feel like everyone besides Allen gets the credit for becoming what he has.  He is a physical freak ar Wyoming as a Sophmore.  Add in the under recruited and constant judging of his play he has an insanse work ethic.  

[snowbelt_subie]

On 7/24/2021 at 10:07 PM, BigAl2526 said:

Sam Darnold also had the handicap of having an idiot head coach.  I don't think Darnold has had the same benefit of continuity as Josh Allen .  Josh has had Brian Daboll's offense for 3 years.  I'm not sure who Darnold's offensive coordinators have been, but he's had more than one.  In comparison to Josh Allen, I do think Sam Darnold is more laid back while Josh Allen is driven.  That may in part because Darnold was something of a "golden child" at USC and didn't to work as hard to have college success, while Josh Allen had to claw his way from high school to junior college to Wyoming.

 

if josh allen, lamar, or baker went to the Jets it would be the same result as what happened.  Lamar got a stable franchise and HC,  Baker had a clown show and finally got a grown up in stefanski and turned it around, Allen has had MR stability Mcd.

 

as much as people dont want to hear it . these Qb's are a product of their environment more than anything.

[BigAl2526]

4 hours ago, snowbelt_subie said:

 

if josh allen, lamar, or baker went to the Jets it would be the same result as what happened.  Lamar got a stable franchise and HC,  Baker had a clown show and finally got a grown up in stefanski and turned it around, Allen has had MR stability Mcd.

 

as much as people dont want to hear it . these Qb's are a product of their environment more than anything.

I agree that environment is hugely important.  I do think that Josh Allen has a higher ceiling than either Darnold or Lamar Jackson, but that is impossible to prove.  Jackson absolutely needed to be drafted by the Ravens.  John Harbaugh understood that the Ravens needed to taylor their offense, and even their offensive coaching staff to his specialized skill set.  It's hard to really judge where Darnold's ceiling might be since the Jets screwed him over with their organization's ineptitude.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

5 hours ago, snowbelt_subie said:

 

if josh allen, lamar, or baker went to the Jets it would be the same result as what happened.  Lamar got a stable franchise and HC,  Baker had a clown show and finally got a grown up in stefanski and turned it around, Allen has had MR stability Mcd.

 

as much as people dont want to hear it . these Qb's are a product of their environment more than anything.

 

You're wrong on Josh Allen!   If you haven't figured that out by now, don't know what to tell you.

[snowbelt_subie]

10 hours ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

You're wrong on Josh Allen!   If you haven't figured that out by now, don't know what to tell you.

 

so you think josh allen would be a superstar with the crap weapons and adam gase?  

[Punching Bag]

23 hours ago, snowbelt_subie said:

 

if josh allen, lamar, or baker went to the Jets it would be the same result as what happened.  Lamar got a stable franchise and HC,  Baker had a clown show and finally got a grown up in stefanski and turned it around, Allen has had MR stability Mcd.

 

as much as people dont want to hear it . these Qb's are a product of their environment more than anything.

 

Alex Van Pelt should get as much credit as Stefanski.  Van Pelt was hired to help Baker transition to NFL QB.  There is a reason why Aaron Rodgers was mad when he lost him as his QB and a new OC was brought in rather than Van Pelt being promoted.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/baker-mayfield-ready-to-keep-the-chains-moving-with-alex-van-pelt

Quote

 

"Much like my relationship with Kevin, (the relationship with Van Pelt) has been growing a lot as we have gone through these weeks with everything starting virtually and just getting to be around him more," Mayfield said. "He is not that far removed from his playing days. Just a real relatable guy. Very understanding. The open communication is pretty essential to what has been our success so far. AVP is just like that. He wants to talk through it and hear our thoughts as well."

 

Besides maybe a slight change in tone from what he normally hears through his helmet Sunday, Mayfield doesn't expect to hear anything unexpected or different with Van Pelt on the headset. The two have worked closely since the spring on technique, play designs and understanding the playbook. 

 

Stefanski has always been with them in the discussions, too, and after four months and 16 games of showing off their work, Van Pelt and Mayfield feel more than comfortable with operating through a game together. The preparation leading up to the game will stay similar as it would for any other game — Stefanski can still coach from a virtual setting until kickoff Sunday — and the offense won't have to change anything even though their coach won't be on the sidelines.

 

"That line of communication has always been open between the three of us," Mayfield said. "Obviously, there are going to be a few little different nuances with AVP calling it, but Kevin and him are still talking and we are all still having those conversations throughout the week, just like a normal game plan week would go."

 

 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

9 hours ago, snowbelt_subie said:

 

so you think josh allen would be a superstar with the crap weapons and adam gase?  

 

Not necessarily; but I don't think he would have flamed out like Darnold as you seem to insinuate because of his natural talent, desire, etc that we all love about him. 

[Punching Bag]

50 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Not necessarily; but I don't think he would have flamed out like Darnold as you seem to insinuate because of his natural talent, desire, etc that we all love about him. 

 

Darnold doesn't have ability to make plays out of broken ones like Allen.  Some QBs are actually BETTER on broken plays like Allen and like Flutie ws.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Limeaid
typo

[snowbelt_subie]

On 7/23/2021 at 12:26 PM, Inigo Montoya said:

Contrast this with Baker Mayfields' attitude. Remember the end of season press conference in 2019 when asked by the press if he was going to hire a private QB tutor after his lackluster sophomore season, he answered that he wouldn't;

“I do not need somebody to teach me how to do a three-step drop,” Mayfield said. “I can look at film and be critical of myself."

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/12/27/baker-mayfield-says-hell-be-working-hard-this-offseason-but-not-with-a-qb-tutor/

Baker has real talent and played great last year in his new system, but I think his ceiling is limited by his hubris. I think we've seen Mayfields' best ball already. I don't think that's the case with Josh Allen.

 

 

 

Well last season Baker changed his footwork and mechanics under Alex Van Pelt who molded Aaron Rodgers.  He also worked on his hard count is up there with the best in the league at doing it now.

 

so saying baker isnt working to get better is simply not true.

 

 

 

[FilthyBeast]

Even if Allen has reached his ceiling as an NFL QB he's right up there as a franchise type of player and top 10 at the position.

 

If he continues to get even better look out....

[Inigo Montoya]

38 minutes ago, snowbelt_subie said:

 

Well last season Baker changed his footwork and mechanics under Alex Van Pelt who molded Aaron Rodgers.  He also worked on his hard count is up there with the best in the league at doing it now.

 

so saying baker isnt working to get better is simply not true.

 

 

 

 

 

Alex Van Pelt was a fantastic hire for the Browns, no argument there.  I think he does deserve a lot of credit for the improved play of Baker last year.   The fact remains that Van Pelt is someone the team brought in to help Baker.  Baker didn't spend a month of his off season working with his own QB coach doing everything he could to get better like Allen did again this off season.  There's an article in the Buffalo News today that said Allen spent the last 28 days before the start of training camp in California working with Jordan Palmer on his game.  I'd be curious to know what Baker Mayfield was doing during that time.

 

Josh Allen has an internal drive to constantly get better.  Baker Mayfield showed up as a rookie and thought he had already arrived, as evidenced by the quote I cited in the OP.   It's just a different mindset that the two QBs have, and I think that mindset helps Allen and hurts Mayfield.  

 

🍻

[Blainorama5]

1 minute ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Josh Allen has an internal drive to constantly get better.  Baker Mayfield showed up as a rookie and thought he had already arrived, as evidenced by the quote I cited in the OP.   It's just a different mindset that the two QBs have, and I think that mindset helps Allen and hurts Mayfield.  

Agreed.  I think that's the difference between a young guy who feels entitled as a No. 1 pick and a guy who got mostly overlooked before Buffalo took him at 7.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Alex Van Pelt was a fantastic hire for the Browns, no argument there.  I think he does deserve a lot of credit for the improved play of Baker last year.   The fact remains that Van Pelt is someone the team brought in to help Baker.  Baker didn't spend a month of his off season working with his own QB coach doing everything he could to get better like Allen did again this off season. 

 

I mean, do you know this? 

There are a couple of hints to that regard - one is Mayfield's quotes (which are IMO a bit of a barb aimed at Allen, Darnold, and the rest of Jordan Palmer's S. Cali QB Summit crew) “It’s not about going somewhere on a beach for a beach workout. " (May 2018) and "I would not say that I will go on the beach and swim through the ocean and try and learn how to play quarterback by doing that." (December 2019)

 

Alex Van Pelt was also quoted after his hire in early 2020 as saying he preferred to be the one working with Mayfield, which Covid kinda put a crimp into.

 

But I don't really know what Mayfield was or was not doing this off season, do you?

 

1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said:

There's an article in the Buffalo News today that said Allen spent the last 28 days before the start of training camp in California working with Jordan Palmer on his game.  I'd be curious to know what Baker Mayfield was doing during that time.

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/how-did-josh-allen-spend-most-of-his-summer-break-working/article_b7f5b3b6-efe2-11eb-adcf-0bbd5bc505fb.html

 

Article you're talking about?

 

Quote

How did the Buffalo Bills’ quarterback spend most of his summer vacation? Working, that’s how.

The Bills’ final spring minicamp practice was June 16. Allen said he was in Southern California training with quarterback guru Jordan Palmer for the better part of 28 days, from June 27 right up until Saturday. The Bills’ players reported to training camp Tuesday.

 

Quote

“I feel like I figured out some more things. It’s awesome when you go into an offseason and you’ve got goals in your mind. ... I feel good where I feel very confident in the things that I worked on. And it’s fun to go out here and try to apply those to game-like situations.”

 

Quote

Allen said maintaining proper throwing mechanics is a never-ending process. “It’s a constant grind,” Allen said. “You take time off and it’s just like anything, you’re going to lose it. So you have to constantly be working on it, finding something to be better at. I think we did a good job of that this offseason – of attacking areas that I wanted to work on and again, not neglecting things I’d been working on and letting those go back to old habits. I think it was a very successful offseason. Ultimately time will tell.”

 

 

[Punching Bag]

On 7/27/2021 at 5:04 PM, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Not necessarily; but I don't think he would have flamed out like Darnold as you seem to insinuate because of his natural talent, desire, etc that we all love about him. 

 

He probably would not have gotten mononucleosis like Darnold.

[snowbelt_subie]

2 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

 

Alex Van Pelt was a fantastic hire for the Browns, no argument there.  I think he does deserve a lot of credit for the improved play of Baker last year.   The fact remains that Van Pelt is someone the team brought in to help Baker.  Baker didn't spend a month of his off season working with his own QB coach doing everything he could to get better like Allen did again this off season.  There's an article in the Buffalo News today that said Allen spent the last 28 days before the start of training camp in California working with Jordan Palmer on his game.  I'd be curious to know what Baker Mayfield was doing during that time.

 

Josh Allen has an internal drive to constantly get better.  Baker Mayfield showed up as a rookie and thought he had already arrived, as evidenced by the quote I cited in the OP.   It's just a different mindset that the two QBs have, and I think that mindset helps Allen and hurts Mayfield.  

 

🍻

 

 

i somewhat agree ... the browns staff is very organized and thorough.  Some teams like the browns i believe don't want there QB working with outside "Gurus" because they want the Qb's mechanics and footwork the way that the TEAM wants it not a 3rd party.

 

 

overall i think its much to do about nothing.  The Browns, Bills Ravens, Chiefs  are going to be good with young QB's for the foreseeable future. its going to come down to head to head matchups in the playoffs much like Big ben, Brady, Manning.

 

Allen beat jackson and no one has beat Mahomes yet... its going to be fun moving forward.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 7/25/2021 at 1:00 PM, Mat68 said:

Also, look at who else is at those camps.  Imo Jordan Palmer owes more to Allen than Allen owes Palmer.  Palmer has been a good fit for sure with him.  I feel like everyone besides Allen gets the credit for becoming what he has.  He is a physical freak ar Wyoming as a Sophmore.  Add in the under recruited and constant judging of his play he has an insanse work ethic.  

 

At this point I certainly don't think Allen is having to pay Palmer anything. If anything, Palmer will do whatever he has to do to keep Allen showing up in the off-season as i am sure there is no better spent advertising money then having Allen at one of his training events. 

[Albany,n.y.]

On 7/26/2021 at 4:37 PM, snowbelt_subie said:

 

if josh allen, lamar, or baker went to the Jets it would be the same result as what happened.  Lamar got a stable franchise and HC,  Baker had a clown show and finally got a grown up in stefanski and turned it around, Allen has had MR stability Mcd.

 

as much as people dont want to hear it . these Qb's are a product of their environment more than anything.

Nonsense!  Josh Allen had the worst offense in his rookie year than any of the QBs.  No OL, no WR, basically he was a one man show his rookie year miraculously winning 5 games in 11 starts & probably would have won a 6th if Peterman hadn't messed things up in Houston. Josh Allen overcame that offense.  That offense brought his stats down where the people who don't watch him play questioned his NFL viability.  The Bills who saw him every day never questioned his ability because they understood they gave him nothing to work with as a rookie.  If he was a product of his rookie environment, when he also had a QB coach who never coached QBs before, he would have sunk like Josh Rosen.  Rosen is now on his 4th team, because like every other QB in the NFL who busted, the NFL game was too big for him, no matter what the environment around him was.  Great QBs change the enviroment themselves, bust QBs will fail everywhere.  

 

Using your premise, if environment was the most important thing, all those mid round QBs drafted in NE would all be superstars.  Tom Brady would uplift any team & if the Bills, during their drought years had drafted Brady, they would have won a ton of games and possibly multiple Super Bowls, no matter how bad the coaching staff was.

 

Nowadays, most QBs have their own QB coach or some kind of mentor who isn't part of the NFL.  If the team he's on isn't providing a proper environment, the player will lean more heavily on his private coach.  The good & great ones make their own environment & the bad ones flame out no matter how good the environment around them is on their team.     

 

QBs make coaches, not the other way around.  Year after year there are coaches who never have won anything before become geniuses with a franchise QB.  Just look at what Jim Kelly did for Marv Levy; Brady did for Belichick, who is below 500 without Brady; Roethlisberger has done for Tomlin; Peyton Manning did for just about all his coaches; and Russell Wilson has done for 2 time NFL loser Pete Carroll.   

 

Most HOF coaches get there on the back of a HOF QB.  

[snowbelt_subie]

11 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Nonsense!  Josh Allen had the worst offense in his rookie year than any of the QBs.  No OL, no WR, basically he was a one man show his rookie year miraculously winning 5 games in 11 starts & probably would have won a 6th if Peterman hadn't messed things up in Houston. Josh Allen overcame that offense.  That offense brought his stats down where the people who don't watch him play questioned his NFL viability.  The Bills who saw him every day never questioned his ability because they understood they gave him nothing to work with as a rookie.  If he was a product of his rookie environment, when he also had a QB coach who never coached QBs before, he would have sunk like Josh Rosen.  Rosen is now on his 4th team, because like every other QB in the NFL who busted, the NFL game was too big for him, no matter what the environment around him was.  Great QBs change the enviroment themselves, bust QBs will fail everywhere.  

 

Using your premise, if environment was the most important thing, all those mid round QBs drafted in NE would all be superstars.  Tom Brady would uplift any team & if the Bills, during their drought years had drafted Brady, they would have won a ton of games and possibly multiple Super Bowls, no matter how bad the coaching staff was.

 

Nowadays, most QBs have their own QB coach or some kind of mentor who isn't part of the NFL.  If the team he's on isn't providing a proper environment, the player will lean more heavily on his private coach.  The good & great ones make their own environment & the bad ones flame out no matter how good the environment around them is on their team.     

 

QBs make coaches, not the other way around.  Year after year there are coaches who never have won anything before become geniuses with a franchise QB.  Just look at what Jim Kelly did for Marv Levy; Brady did for Belichick, who is below 500 without Brady; Roethlisberger has done for Tomlin; Peyton Manning did for just about all his coaches; and Russell Wilson has done for 2 time NFL loser Pete Carroll.   

 

Most HOF coaches get there on the back of a HOF QB.  

 

i guess we will agree to disagree.  i think you need both to succeed. if you think josh allen would be a star on the Jets the last couple of years idk what to tell ya. no one  not even tom brady would have done well.

 

think its a coincidence that Ryan Tannehill  has been really good now that he got away from Gase or Baker mayfield was really bad under freddie kitchens and now was really good under Stefanski? 

 

[Albany,n.y.]

3 hours ago, snowbelt_subie said:

 

i guess we will agree to disagree.  i think you need both to succeed. if you think josh allen would be a star on the Jets the last couple of years idk what to tell ya. no one  not even tom brady would have done well.

 

think its a coincidence that Ryan Tannehill  has been really good now that he got away from Gase or Baker mayfield was really bad under freddie kitchens and now was really good under Stefanski? 

 

If Josh was on the Jets they never would have fired Bowles or the GM & they wouldn't have been the no-talent disaster they were under Gase.  They would have given Josh the weapons needed instead of letting his best receiver go like the Jets did to Darnold.  If the GM totally screws up his job like Joe Douglas did last year in a failed tank to get Trevor Lawrence (I have always thought that all tanks are done by the GM messing up the roster so that the coaching staff has an insufficient amount of players to win because all players & coaches play to win every game-except playoff spot locked up teams in season finales) then he can make a QB look bad, but you can't ruin a good player.   

 

Tannehill's biggest problem in Miami was he kept getting hurt.  Bad coaches can make a player look bad, but that's pretty short term for guys destined to be stars.  Look at when Jim Kelly came here.  He had a horrible 1st coach with the Bills & the team knew the sooner they got rid of Bullough, the better. 

 

You don't have to have a great organization to develop a QB, but you can't have a joke of a coaching staff either because the play calling can make a QB look bad even when the talent is still evident in spite of some bad stats.