Josh vs Tua collegewise

[78thealltimegreat]

Last night I was listening to one of the sports channels on Sirius. They where talking about Tua playing with like 8 first round picks on offense alone at Bama and should we be evaluating qbs also on who they where throwing to as part of the evaluation...

   Then they brought up Josh and imagine his numbers if he played for say Urban Meyer at Ohio State. Saying there’s no way he’s there at 7 if he played for the Buckeyes or even Baker playing at Wyoming instead of Oklahoma no way he’s no1...found it interesting if we should start evaluating qbs on who else is on their team  

Edited December 27, 2020 by 78thealltimegreat

[JoshAllenReceipts]

1 minute ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Last night I was listening to one of the sports channels on Sirius. They where talking about Tua playing with like 8 first round picks on offense alone at Bama and should we be evaluating qbs also on who they where throwing to as part of the evaluation...then they brought

up Josh and imagine his numbers if he played for say Urban Meyer at Ohio State. Saying there’s no way he’s there at 7 if he played for the Buckeyes or even Baker playing at Wyoming instead of Oklahoma no way he’s no1...found it interesting if we should start evaluating qbs on who else is on their team  

 

 

If Baker Mayfield played college football at Wyoming, he would have gone Undrafted. Literally.

 

Josh Allen was a one-man football team at Wyoming. Singlehandedly won 2/3rds of his starts there all on his own. When Josh was out, Wyoming got blown out by bad teams. 

[Heavy Kevi]

28 minutes ago, JoshAllenReceipts said:

 

 

If Baker Mayfield played college football at Wyoming, he would have gone Undrafted. Literally.

 

Josh Allen was a one-man football team at Wyoming. Singlehandedly won 2/3rds of his starts there all on his own. When Josh was out, Wyoming got blown out by bad teams. 

 

Agreed on Baker. Josh got drafted because his physical tools put him on the radar. Baker is too small to have been drafted early (if at all) from wyoming.

[Don Otreply]

Tua has showed very little considering his supposed greatness at bama, it’s earlier days still, but he appears to be a wuss of a QB so far. 

[CorkScrewHill]

49 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Last night I was listening to one of the sports channels on Sirius. They where talking about Tua playing with like 8 first round picks on offense alone at Bama and should we be evaluating qbs also on who they where throwing to as part of the evaluation...

   Then they brought up Josh and imagine his numbers if he played for say Urban Meyer at Ohio State. Saying there’s no way he’s there at 7 if he played for the Buckeyes or even Baker playing at Wyoming instead of Oklahoma no way he’s no1...found it interesting if we should start evaluating qbs on who else is on their team  

Way too early to judge Tua .. he might suck, he might be meh or he might become a superstar. We got annoyed when people trashed Josh based on his early output .. hopefully he does stink and the Dolphins remain average .. but too early to say

[Playoffs?]

44 minutes ago, CorkScrewHill said:

Way too early to judge Tua .. he might suck, he might be meh or he might become a superstar. We got annoyed when people trashed Josh based on his early output .. hopefully he does stink and the Dolphins remain average .. but too early to say

Yep, agree too early to say. 

Guess my concern if I were a Dolphins fan is that I haven’t seen any flashes of real promise yet. Josh was a rollercoaster ride.. still is sometimes!  His bad was bad, but his good was mind blowing. Tua has been consistently ok so far. Could be worse, but not seeing any magic either. We’ll see!

[streetkings01]

I’ve been banging the drum on this same argument when it comes to Tua. He played on an Bama offense that had Ruggs, Jeudey and Smith with 4* and 5* recruits on the offensive line. I’m an FSU fan and I watched Jacob Coker transfer from FSU to Bama and win a Natty. What QB can’t go to Bama and put up numbers?

[GunnerBill]

27 minutes ago, Playoffs? said:

Yep, agree too early to say. 

Guess my concern if I were a Dolphins fan is that I haven’t seen any flashes of real promise yet. Josh was a rollercoaster ride.. still is sometimes!  His bad was bad, but his good was mind blowing. Tua has been consistently ok so far. Could be worse, but not seeing any magic either. We’ll see!

 

He is definitely playing too safe. Scared of making a mistake. That is not the way to develop a rookie. They need to tell him to let it rip and they will stand by the consequences. That isn't helped by them benching him every 30 seconds. Strange coaching from  a coach I do like. 

[streetkings01]

Tua reminds me of Darnold.......a QB that never wows you but always gets the benefit of the doubt due to being a can’t miss prospect from the media and they refuse to be wrong.

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Tua has showed very little considering his supposed greatness at bama, it’s earlier days still, but he appears to be a wuss of a QB so far. 

Yep, there is a little bit of the post-shell shock Trent Edwards look there, but really: the Phins have either won or been very close in every game he's started so far. 6-2 record as a starter (with a huge assist to Fitzy yesterday). And remember that his best receivers - this year's version of DeVante Parker and Mike Geisicki - are probably Gabriel Davis and healthy Tyler Kroft quality. In other words, guys who wouldn't get a whole lot of looks on this year's Bills.

The key thing right now for a playoff team is "don't lose us games." And so far he's succeeded at that level.  We know he throws a pretty long ball ... whether "pretty" translates into "effective at the NFL level" is something we'll find out before too long.

Edited December 27, 2020 by The Frankish Reich

[Don Otreply]

6 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Yep, there is a little bit of the post-shell shock Trent Edwards look there, but really: the Phins have either won or been very close in every game he's started so far. 6-2 record as a starter (with a huge assist to Fitzy yesterday). And remember that his best receivers - this year's version of DeVante Parker and Mike Geisicki - are probably Gabriel Davis and healthy Tyler Kroft quality. In other words, guys who wouldn't get a whole lot of looks on this year's Bills.

The key thing right now for a playoff team is "don't lose us games." And so far he's succeeded at that level.  We know he throws a pretty long ball ... whether "pretty" translates into "effective at the NFL level" is something we'll find out before too long.

The Trent Edwards reference made me chuckle, you are right in that we shall see, but his inability to move the offense up the field is notable imo, Fitz with all his flaws makes Tua look somewhat incompetent, as said it is early days yet...

[fansince88]

I dont think Tua will ever be a great in the league! Nobody tanked for the right Josh and he is not only a head taller in stature but also miles ahead of him in quality.

[PonyBoy]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is definitely playing too safe. Scared of making a mistake. That is not the way to develop a rookie. They need to tell him to let it rip and they will stand by the consequences. That isn't helped by them benching him every 30 seconds. Strange coaching from  a coach I do like. 

I dont think they anticipated they would have such a good record and making the playoffs. D and ST has contributed a lot too. I think it stunts his development too, but when you have a shot to make playoffs, different decisions are made. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, PonyBoy said:

I dont think they anticipated they would have such a good record and making the playoffs. D and ST has contributed a lot too. I think it stunts his development too, but when you have a shot to make playoffs, different decisions are made. 

 

I just don't think the Dolphins should be in playoff or bust mode. Not this year 

[PonyBoy]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I just don't think the Dolphins should be in playoff or bust mode. Not this year 

Not long ago Buffalo fans would've killed for an opportunity to make it, Hell or highwater. Its not like the Dolphins havent had a drought either. Just not as long as the Bills. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, PonyBoy said:

Not long ago Buffalo fans would've killed for an opportunity to make it, Hell or highwater. Its not like the Dolphins havent had a drought either. Just not as long as the Bills. 

 

I get it. But the Bills were not risking their long term QB to do it. Tua's chances might not have been great anyway but they are hurt by this IMO. 

[NoSaint]

4 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Last night I was listening to one of the sports channels on Sirius. They where talking about Tua playing with like 8 first round picks on offense alone at Bama and should we be evaluating qbs also on who they where throwing to as part of the evaluation...

   Then they brought up Josh and imagine his numbers if he played for say Urban Meyer at Ohio State. Saying there’s no way he’s there at 7 if he played for the Buckeyes or even Baker playing at Wyoming instead of Oklahoma no way he’s no1...found it interesting if we should start evaluating qbs on who else is on their team  

of course we consider that. Who isn’t considering it?

 

unfortunately for josh, his college resume was also built playing AGAINST non nfl prospects- which was a consideration. 
 

do you think these factors aren’t weighed?

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I get it. But the Bills were not risking their long term QB to do it. Tua's chances might not have been great anyway but they are hurt by this IMO. 

If they are hurt it’s mostly in image- once benched it’s easier to pull the plug earlier later. I don’t think he’s a different caliber of player due to this move though 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

If they are hurt it’s mostly in image- once benched it’s easier to pull the plug earlier later. I don’t think he’s a different caliber of player due to this move though 

 

I just think it is bizarre management of his psyche. 

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, A Firm Tree Does Not Fear said:

totally disagree with this take.

 

he is no wuss.

Did you look at his passing in the raiders game? That’s pretty wussy, iirc he has several under performing (wussy) passing games, If they didn’t pull him Miami loses that game. I did say it’s early still, but he hasn’t wowed anyone thus far. 

[Don Otreply]

Just now, A Firm Tree Does Not Fear said:

nothing wussy about how the kid plays. funny though, how someone sitting on a couch watching can call a professional athlete a wuss.

 

anyhow, one thing I do agree with is it is still early to claim good bad or otherwise at this point. 6-2 as a rookie on a pretty much rebuilding team is not a bad start to a career.

Come on now, Tua is only a small part of why they have a winning record, and his passing game is not good, everyone sees this, 17 passes for 89 yards, that’s very wussy, regardless of the chair I sit in, 😁👍

[Jay_Fixit]

26 minutes ago, A Firm Tree Does Not Fear said:

nothing wussy about how the kid plays. funny though, how someone sitting on a couch watching can call a professional athlete a wuss.

 

anyhow, one thing I do agree with is it is still early to claim good bad or otherwise at this point. 6-2 as a rookie on a pretty much rebuilding team is not a bad start to a career though.

6-2 is a team stat. Not a QB stat. And Tua has been quite underwhelming no matter what you say.

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Last night I was listening to one of the sports channels on Sirius. They where talking about Tua playing with like 8 first round picks on offense alone at Bama and should we be evaluating qbs also on who they where throwing to as part of the evaluation...

   Then they brought up Josh and imagine his numbers if he played for say Urban Meyer at Ohio State. Saying there’s no way he’s there at 7 if he played for the Buckeyes or even Baker playing at Wyoming instead of Oklahoma no way he’s no1...found it interesting if we should start evaluating qbs on who else is on their team  

 

 

As an OSU alum QB in the NFL, Josh would be parking cars by now.

[stinky finger]

5 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Tua has showed very little considering his supposed greatness at bama, it’s earlier days still, but he appears to be a wuss of a QB so far. 

 

Agree

 

i just don’t see the tools. A low ceiling as my untrained eyes see it. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Tua has showed very little considering his supposed greatness at bama, it’s earlier days still, but he appears to be a wuss of a QB so far. 

 

I think it’s possible he’s not fully recovered or didn’t have enough time post recovery to get back into his game physically.  He’s had a couple of good games.

 

That said, I would argue if you need a vet journeyman to come in and take over for your franchise guy to give your team a “spark”....maybe you don’t have your franchise guy.

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, A Firm Tree Does Not Fear said:

 

do you puff your chest out when you call a professional athlete a wuss?

 

he may bust, he may shine. time will tell

 

Oh please, not puffing anything, it’s just an opinion, relax, like you haven’t critiqued a pro athlete ever... nuthin but luv.

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think it’s possible he’s not fully recovered or didn’t have enough time post recovery to get back into his game physically.  He’s had a couple of good games.

 

That said, I would argue if you need a vet journeyman to come in and take over for your franchise guy to give your team a “spark”....maybe you don’t have your franchise guy.

Well said, 

[stinky finger]

1 hour ago, A Firm Tree Does Not Fear said:

nothing wussy about how the kid plays. funny though, how someone sitting on a couch watching can call a professional athlete a wuss.

 

anyhow, one thing I do agree with is it is still early to claim good bad or otherwise at this point. 6-2 as a rookie on a pretty much rebuilding team is not a bad start to a career though.

 

I doubt he’s a wuss.

 

theres just nothing that wows me seeing him play. 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Tua is boring 

[TH3]

1 hour ago, inaugural balls said:

 

I doubt he’s a wuss.

 

theres just nothing that wows me seeing him play. 

As a person....prolly not a wuss....His qb game tho? ....I watched the whole game last nite....I can buy in on the wuss part...20 4 yard outs....makes Tyrod seem like a gunslinger

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think it’s possible he’s not fully recovered or didn’t have enough time post recovery to get back into his game physically.  He’s had a couple of good games.

 

That said, I would argue if you need a vet journeyman to come in and take over for your franchise guy to give your team a “spark”....maybe you don’t have your franchise guy.

 

And because your interpretation is one likely to be shared by many is yet another reason why Flores shouldn't do it.

[OrtonHearsaWho]

Watching Tua has made me appreciate Josh and his insane arm strength even more because sometimes it looks like it takes everything that Tua has to move the ball downfield.  I had to poke around a bit to find it but I remember seeing this before the draft and did a double take...keep in mind this is before this season & without Josh's improved mechanics...

 

[stinky finger]

1 hour ago, OrtonHearsaWho said:

Watching Tua has made me appreciate Josh and his insane arm strength even more because sometimes it looks like it takes everything that Tua has to move the ball downfield.  I had to poke around a bit to find it but I remember seeing this before the draft and did a double take...keep in mind this is before this season & without Josh's improved mechanics...

 

 

So Tua is the Phil Niekro of QBs?

[Mat68]

The problem with Alabama and other dominate programs through out history is 2 fold.  First, how much growth is left?  What makes those programs so good is their ability to maximize talent. 

 

Second, they dont play NFL qb except for minor occassions if at all.  Do they play from a sloppy/dirty pocket.  Do they make tight window money throws.  Those are the plays Tua rarely seen at Alabama.  The plays you could grade in those areas werent great.  Those were the areas that made Burrough a no question number 1.  

 

There is a reason only 2 heisman winners also won a Superbowl at qb. That happened in the 70's.  Rodgers, juco than Cal.  Brady was 5th string at Michigan.  Brees went to Purdue and hes from Texas. Manning went to Tennessee.  

 

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, Mat68 said:

The problem with Alabama and other dominate programs through out history is 2 fold.  First, how much growth is left?  What makes those programs so good is their ability to maximize talent. 

 

Second, they dont play NFL qb except for minor occassions if at all.  Do they play from a sloppy/dirty pocket.  Do they make tight window money throws.  Those are the plays Tua rarely seen at Alabama.  The plays you could grade in those areas werent great.  Those were the areas that made Burrough a no question number 1.  

 

There is a reason only 2 heisman winners also won a Superbowl at qb. That happened in the 70's.  Rodgers, juco than Cal.  Brady was 5th string at Michigan.  Brees went to Purdue and hes from Texas. Manning went to Tennessee.  

 

 

Tennessee were national championship contenders at the time Manning went there. They won 10 games the year before he arrived. They don't belong in the same category as those others. He played on talented teams in college. Not Alabama with Tua talent, granted, but talent nonetheless. 

[Chuck Wagon]

I don't mean to disparage Craig Bohl, the guy is very successful and he found Josh when he was way under the radar.  But Josh showed how much he was capable of improving with coaching.

 

If he had been in Baker's shoes at Oklahoma or at Bama / Clemson / Ohio St etc he would absolutely have been pick #1 and likely would have received significant hype about being an all time prospect.  I think a lot of "experts" barely watched him and parroted opinions.

[Billy Claude]

9 hours ago, Mat68 said:

The problem with Alabama and other dominate programs through out history is 2 fold.  First, how much growth is left?  What makes those programs so good is their ability to maximize talent. 

 

Second, they dont play NFL qb except for minor occassions if at all.  Do they play from a sloppy/dirty pocket.  Do they make tight window money throws.  Those are the plays Tua rarely seen at Alabama.  The plays you could grade in those areas werent great.  Those were the areas that made Burrough a no question number 1.  

 

There is a reason only 2 heisman winners also won a Superbowl at qb. That happened in the 70's.  Rodgers, juco than Cal.  Brady was 5th string at Michigan.  Brees went to Purdue and hes from Texas. Manning went to Tennessee.  

 

 

I don't know if Tom Brady doesn't belong on the list either.   He started every game his last two seasons at Michigan (though he did the weird platoon with Drew Henson) and led the big comeback win against Ohio State his last year.  I remember the UM fans complaining about the platooning when it seem pretty clear that the offense looked a  lot better with Brady than Henson.  Lloyd Carr was just in love with Henson's measurables.

 

 

 

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, A Firm Tree Does Not Fear said:

the point I was trying to make was it is pretty ignorant to call a professional athlete a wuss. a wuss wouldn't step on to the field of play. this kid not only stepped on the field of play he had his hip bone shattered in to pieces while playing the game. not only did he recover but he was drafted and now starts for a professional football team.

 

no wuss could manage to do that.

 

call him a bust, he sucks or whatever, but a wuss?

 

no, he's no wuss.

I’m quite sure Tua is a great guy/teammate and has a fighters attitude, but his arm strength can be described as wussy, 53.5 mph max launch velocity, again 17 completions for 89 yards over three plus quarters,  at this early point in his career his play is wussy, his attitude isn’t, but his play is certainly lacking panache, for lack of a better word,  that may change for the better, but at present it isn’t.

There is a difference between describing the individual vs describing the individuals play... Capisce? 

[Charles Romes]

Tua seems to have a ceiling of a top 12 quarterback. I am happy if any opponent has that kind of ceiling because it gives us a considerable advantage. Our QB has a ceiling of 1. 

[78thealltimegreat]

18 hours ago, NoSaint said:

of course we consider that. Who isn’t considering it?

 

unfortunately for josh, his college resume was also built playing AGAINST non nfl prospects- which was a consideration. 
 

do you think these factors aren’t weighed?

If they are hurt it’s mostly in image- once benched it’s easier to pull the plug earlier later. I don’t think he’s a different caliber of player due to this move though 

I think the helmet they played for stands out to alot of front offices 

16 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

As an OSU alum QB in the NFL, Josh would be parking cars by now.

So Josh Allen couldn’t start at OSU over Braxton Miller and JT Barrett? Last I checked those two guys really are parking cars 

[skibum]

You would also have to factor competition into that kind of argument. An SEC QB has a lot of weapons to throw to, but they also have to play against blue chip defensemen. Like LSU cornerbacks, for example. I think it all comes out in the wash. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I think the helmet they played for stands out to alot of front offices 

So Josh Allen couldn’t start at OSU over Braxton Miller and JT Barrett? Last I checked those two guys really are parking cars 

 

I think you missed the point there....