Joshs development has been amazing

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's been fun and it's impressive how much work Allen has put in........ but we shouldn't be astonished by a QB who was picked 7th overall playing at a high level in year 3.

What is astonishing is the Bills front office bucked conventional wisdom and traded up to pick a prospect who many projected to be statistically unviable as an nfl qb. That narrative continued for two seasons.
 

What is astonishing is how many were wrong and that for a change, the bills were actually right. 

[Mark Vader]

5 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

 

Last I saw he's leading the NFL in passing yards again.  

 

Like the announcer said a 10 point jump in completion % is astounding.  of course a good WR corp helps.  

 

I've liked Stafford.  Incompetent coaches and lack of talent at times hasn't helped him.  

 

Now that he's up in age a young 32, he'll be ignored like Matt Ryan as a good QB  

 

That is so unfortunate for both of those QB's. Both are very good, and will not be remembered as well as other QB's.

[Success]

I think it's pretty clear:  not only did we get the "right Josh" from that draft, but he is emerging as the clear best QB from that group overall.

 

Last year, that was not really considered because of the year Jackson had.  I suppose it's a bit hot-takey to make that determination so soon after last season - but who here would take Jackson over Allen right now?  I mean, no way.

 

Allen has all of the skills, and more importantly, all of the intangibles that you could want in a franchise QB.  And by all accounts, he's obsessive about correcting his mistakes & his work ethic in general. That's something he shares w/ a lot of the greats.

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Success

[Chicken Boo]

11 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

Not that there's anything wrong with Stafford. Not his fault that he plays for the Lions.

 

Actually, it is.  He chose to re-up with the franchise.

[The Jokeman]

I'll admit going into this season I envisioned Allen at best a top 10-15 QB and said that he'd likely never be a top 5 guy as didn't expect he'd ever be a better than 62-64% completion guy and maybe get 300 yards ever 3 games or so. Yet he really has improved his play significantly from last year. Though I do think he tried a little too much on Sunday which lead to his interceptions. He does need help in the running game and to me a better TE as to me Knox/Kroft are at best #2 TEs. I'd love for us to draft a kid like Kyle Pitts in the 1st round in 2021 and our offense be even more deadly.  Yet the defense needs to middle out aka be middle of the road if we are truly going to make a run at the title the next year or two as giving up 25 plus points a game isn't good enough. Also the offense needs to wake up in the 3rd quarter or at the very least running game keep us moving the chains to get more points on the board. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

51 minutes ago, Success said:

I think it's pretty clear:  not only did we get the "right Josh" from that draft, but he is emerging as the clear best QB from that group overall.

 

Last year, that was not really considered because of the year Jackson had.  I suppose it's a bit hot-takey to make that determination so soon after last season - but who here would take Jackson over Allen right now?  I mean, no way.

 

Allen has all of the skills, and more importantly, all of the intangibles that you could want in a franchise QB.  And by all accounts, he's obsessive about correcting his mistakes & his work ethic in general. That's something he shares w/ a lot of the greats.

 

 

Not I. and I can safely say not Shaw66 

[RichRiderBills]

I'd take Josh over Kyler or Lamar...guys like Lamar and Kyler are hot for 3 years or less, then someone puts a helmet on the knee, they tear the ACL and, even if they stick around, they are never the same. 

 

Im especially concerned about Kyler's longevity with that height, and the fact the offenses these guys run almost demand the QB be a runner. That's not the same as Vick or Steve Young. 

 

Josh has that pocket ability, the learning, and film study, the work ethic that will make him great. Plus Bills are running a pro system that has more universal application and ability to adjust to QBs.

Edited November 17, 2020 by RichRiderBills

[Putin]

17 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

I'd take Josh over Kyler or Lamar...guys like Lamar and Kyler are hot for 3 years or less, then someone puts a helmet on the knee, they tear the ACL and, even if they stick around, they are never the same. 

 

Im especially concerned about Kyler's longevity with that height, and the fact the offenses these guys run almost demand the QB be a runner. That's not the same as Vick or Steve Young. 

 

Josh has that pocket ability, the learning, and film study, the work ethic that will make him great. Plus Bills are running a pro system that has more universal application and ability to adjust to QBs.

I think Kyler is much better passer then Lamar and as far as injuries goes could happen to anyone look what happened to Brees , but I agree with you on Josh I wouldn’t trade him for ANY QB in the league NOT even Mahomes 

[MarlinTheMagician]

I agree with the poster on page 1; that out pattern to Diggs is ridiculous arm strength, and a "throw him open" read from 35 yards out, and kinda off the back foot.  An absolute laser, no one can make that throw except maybe Mahomes in my mind.  Rogers and Stafford - maybe at their peak.  He threw it so hard, the camera lost track of it.  It had a speed and trajectory that NFL camera men did not anticipate.  And what a tough son of a gun, and what a teammate.  Just wow. 

 

Maybe the topper for me in that game, as bad as our offense was in the third quarter, and despite all the momentum for the Cardinals, I believed it likely Josh would bring them back in the fourth.  Have not had that feeling since Kelly, who could stink as bad as you can imagine in the first half and come out throwing daggers in the second.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 minutes ago, Putin said:

I think Kyler is much better passer then Lamar and as far as injuries goes could happen to anyone look what happened to Brees , but I agree with you on Josh I wouldn’t trade him for ANY QB in the league NOT even Mahomes 

 

Kyler is >>>>>  Lamar 

 

[Real McClappy]

12 hours ago, HankBulloughMellencamp said:

 

a rubber armed Foles could never get that ball out there on time, it would be fair caught as a pick 😆

It had a lot of mustard on it. Watch the replay, and if you think that 35 yard OUT is just a stock NFL throw, I assure you you're wrong!

 

https://twitter.com/ErikJTurner/status/1328458986740396033?s=20

Cole's reaction on that TD is awesome!

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

What is astonishing is the Bills front office bucked conventional wisdom and traded up to pick a prospect who many projected to be statistically unviable as an nfl qb. That narrative continued for two seasons.
 

What is astonishing is how many were wrong and that for a change, the bills were actually right. 

 

 

I feel like we had a full year to prepare for the QB pick though..........the organization wasn't hiding their intention to draft one.........and by mid-college-season we knew that Josh Allen could be one of them.........so that part didn't catch anyone off guard.   

 

I think the feeling that best describes seeing your early draft pick seeming to live up to expectations is "satisfying" or "gratifying"...........when you pick a QB early you expect big things.........if you are actually astonished when he does well then you probably were very skeptical.     

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

9 hours ago, MJS said:

I am happy to have Allen.

Yes, there are QB's who could not make that throw. But I assure you there are a lot of QB's in the NFL who could.

 

The impressive thing about it is how clutch it was, not that is was some superhuman throw that nobody else could make. I think a coach would be concerned if his NFL QB could NOT make that throw.

 

I assure you that you are wrong, and there's no point going round and round again.

An NFL QB could perhaps make that throw versus air. No interception to worry about.

 

An NFL QB doesn't automatically have the ability to make that same 35 yard out toss in a game...

with Patrick Peterson in tight coverage, and complete it.

Few could. Josh did.

Elite arm talent.

 

[JohnNord]

21 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's been fun and it's impressive how much work Allen has put in........ but we shouldn't be astonished by a QB who was picked 7th overall playing at a high level in year 3.

Yes, considering so much of the media told us thst Allen destined to be failure due to advanced analytics.  
 

Sam Monson, Mena Kimes, Cian Fahey, A-Ron Schatz et al

[JohnNord]

9 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

What is astonishing is the Bills front office bucked conventional wisdom and traded up to pick a prospect who many projected to be statistically unviable as an nfl qb. That narrative continued for two seasons.
 

What is astonishing is how many were wrong and that for a change, the bills were actually right. 

No doubt and there’s a few lessons you can learn here:

 

- Data is important but not the ultimate decision maker 

- “NFL people” might know a little more than than the analytics crew - most who have never played or worked in the NFL

- Don’t underestimate a team’s long-term plan to develop a player vs perceived natural ability/performance...especially a QB.  
- Writing off a player on draft day and routining against them, makes you look like a jackass

[BobbyC81]

21 hours ago, JimKellyTryouts said:

Daboll being there for him the entire way can't be emphasized enough either - and it's only a matter of time when he's offered HC interviews. Selfishly, it'd be nice the local guy turns them down until accomplishing some "unfinished business" - a Lombardi

Exactly.  Alex Smith may have never been more of a Captain Checkdown but the Niners were going thru OCs almost yearly at the start of his career.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I feel like we had a full year to prepare for the QB pick though..........the organization wasn't hiding their intention to draft one.........and by mid-college-season we knew that Josh Allen could be one of them.........so that part didn't catch anyone off guard.   

 

I think the feeling that best describes seeing your early draft pick seeming to live up to expectations is "satisfying" or "gratifying"...........when you pick a QB early you expect big things.........if you are actually astonished when he does well then you probably were very skeptical.     

You aren’t seeing “many projected to be unviable” as skeptical?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

32 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

No doubt and there’s a few lessons you can learn here:

 

- Data is important but not the ultimate decision maker 

- “NFL people” might know a little more than than the analytics crew - most who have never played or worked in the NFL

- Don’t underestimate a team’s long-term plan to develop a player vs perceived natural ability/performance...especially a QB.  
- Writing off a player on draft day and routining against them, makes you look like a jackass

Yeah ... right now who would rather have Baker or Darnold? 

[Doc]

I'm waiting to see Josh with a running game and a good defense.  As impressed as I've been with Josh's jump this year from the past 2 years, I'm as disappointed with the defense's decline. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

22 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

QB's are a bit more of a risk.........I think @Kirby Jackson had a data set once that said you could expect about 15% of first round QB's to become franchise QB's........but the reward is so much higher than that of drafting any other position so what was amazing  was how few shots the Bills had taken at QB's in round 1 in the prior 58 drafts.

 

For years I always said I'd be willing to make a bet that "QB "X" will be a failure" and I'll bet the starting QB for all 32 teams as more fail than succeed so will end up ahead on the bet.

 

Admittedly in recent years no so sure I'd take that bet anymore as there seems to be a resurgence in their overall play. My theory has always been that overall players have got too big, and too fast and with all the computer analysis the game to complicated for almost any QB to process everything fast enough to make the right decision.  10 years back there was maybe a handful who could; Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers.

 

Now there seems to be more good young QB's why?  Not sure, but maybe the limited practice time reduces the ability for defenses to get as complicated as they use to??  So makes the QB's look good??

[Solomon Grundy]

8 hours ago, Putin said:

I think Kyler is much better passer then Lamar and as far as injuries goes could happen to anyone look what happened to Brees , but I agree with you on Josh I wouldn’t trade him for ANY QB in the league NOT even Mahomes 

Never thought I'd ever say I agree with Putin

[Putin]

21 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Never thought I'd ever say I agree with Putin

That’s goot I put poison awey now 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Yes, considering so much of the media told us thst Allen destined to be failure due to advanced analytics.  
 

Sam Monson, Mena Kimes, Cian Fahey, A-Ron Schatz et al

 

 

So you are saying that we shouldn't be surprised that a bunch of fringe analysts of no import might have had it wrong about Josh Allen?

 

Agreed.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

For years I always said I'd be willing to make a bet that "QB "X" will be a failure" and I'll bet the starting QB for all 32 teams as more fail than succeed so will end up ahead on the bet.

 

Admittedly in recent years no so sure I'd take that bet anymore as there seems to be a resurgence in their overall play. My theory has always been that overall players have got too big, and too fast and with all the computer analysis the game to complicated for almost any QB to process everything fast enough to make the right decision.  10 years back there was maybe a handful who could; Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers.

 

Now there seems to be more good young QB's why?  Not sure, but maybe the limited practice time reduces the ability for defenses to get as complicated as they use to??  So makes the QB's look good??

 

 

It's a bunch of factors making more young QB's more productive............it really started 10 years ago with Goodell making it very hard to be violent with QB's and WR's.........the fear of being hit while prone was always the biggest limiting factor.

 

Then......after the spike in passing production......... you had the big money going the QB and WR positions.    That draws young talent to those positions and it helps the NFL get players that used to go to other sports(see Kyler Murray most recently).    And the training these young guys get is very advanced now..........it's easier to access information and the money involved has created a whole QB development industry.

 

Then the implementation of more college style offense.......like RPO's.......have made the reads and throws easier for young QB's.

 

I also think that teams are finding it too expensive to throw tons of money at defense.........and you almost need to be outstanding at every position to be outstanding at defense with the offense having so many advantages........and that is just much harder to sustain than offense is.

 

It's a lot of factors that have favored the expansion of the passing game/QB play.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

You aren’t seeing “many projected to be unviable” as skeptical?

 

 

So Bills fans should be amazed for the skeptics?

 

What some of you guys responding to me are talking about aren't the odds that a top of the first round QB would become very good.....those are decent.

 

It's you wanting a bunch of analysts to be astonished.

 

In a league where the guys like Tom Brady and Drew Brees and Russell Wilson have dominated at a HOF level for about 50 combined years without any of them even being 1st round picks...........good luck getting people to fall over dead at Josh Allen playing well for a season.

 

Just enjoy having a good QB........the journey is the reward.      

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

 

 

 

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Gene1973 said:

The Allen selection was was a throw down between the analytics crowd and the old school football measurables crowd.

 

It seemed like a no brainer the analytics crowd would eventually win this "argument", but they have lost. Allen could definitely change how future QB prospects are evaluated. It could lead to mamy busts though, as a lot of the "tools" prospects are usually fools gold.

IMO it was more of a throw down between people that studied him intently and people that box score scouted.

[JMF2006]

I think if the Browns Giants and Jets had a redo Josh would be their guy

 

I am so happy Beane went up to 7 to get him  

 

What a perfect fit.

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

So Bills fans should be amazed for the skeptics?

 

What some of you guys responding to me are talking about aren't the odds that a top of the first round QB would become very good.....those are decent.

 

It's you wanting a bunch of analysts to be astonished.

 

In a league where the guys like Tom Brady and Drew Brees and Russell Wilson have dominated at a HOF level for about 50 combined years without any of them even being 1st round picks...........good luck getting people to fall over dead at Josh Allen playing well for a season.

 

Just enjoy having a good QB........the journey is the reward.      

 

 

Just because you're not impressed doesn’t mean everyone else can’t be that a prospect universally acclaimed as having an uncorrectable inaccuracy trait, is now one of the most accurate passers in the NFL, and drastically outperforming the QBs drafted ahead of him. It’s astonishing to most that understand what they saw in the first year versus now. 

[thebandit27]

7 minutes ago, Gene1973 said:

There will always be many more Kyle Bollers than Josh Allens.

No offense: that’s a total and complete non-sequitur

[thebandit27]

8 minutes ago, Gene1973 said:

Beane and McDermott touting the big arm, big hands throwing in cold weather stuff says otherwise IMO.

1) what does that have to do with Kyle Boller?

2) you think his arm and hand size are the reasons that he was drafted?

 

I really don’t see your point here.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even the majority of the Power Rankings are praising Josh for his final drive and mentioning a "lucky" Hail Mary play. 

 

[JohnNord]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

So you are saying that we shouldn't be surprised that a bunch of fringe analysts of no import might have had it wrong about Josh Allen?

 

Agreed.

 

 

Ha ha yes!  It’s actually surprising how many fans (myself included) as well as other analysts and media members allowed this crew to completely shape their opinion that Allen was going to bust and that Rosen was THE choice at pick 7.  

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Just because you're not impressed doesn’t mean everyone else can’t be that a prospect universally acclaimed as having an uncorrectable inaccuracy trait, is now one of the most accurate passers in the NFL, and drastically outperforming the QBs drafted ahead of him. It’s astonishing to most that understand what they saw in the first year versus now. 

 

 

I never said I wasn't impressed.........just not filled with astonishment by it.

 

And you are wrong about his accuracy issues being "universally" believed to be uncorrectable.

 

That's hyperbole.

 

When Allen was having accuracy issues in year 1 there were a number of analysts who pointed out that most of them were correctable thru better mechanics and it was often emphasized how inexperienced he was at the position compared to other prospects etc..

 

He then made huge strides on some throws last year,  becoming one of the most accurate short passers in the league.

 

He's taken more strides and the game has clearly slowed for him and he's gotten more help in the receiving corps this year.

 

A switch didn't just come on overnight.........it wasn't a bestowed miracle........this has been a relatively linear advancement..........which isn't always the case with QB play...........but it's not "beyond shocking".  

 

He still has to resolve some deep ball/touch issues but at the current rate one would think that he will get there in the near future.

 

We had a thread recently about fan confidence in McBeane..........and it said that a poll of Bills fans said that 89% were very confident in the direction they had the Bills going............and just a couple posts into it someone posted that there was "endless negativity" from Bills fans.    

 

Some people just can't contain their need to exaggerate.......

[SCBills]

Top 10 in every single category listed 

 

(swipe through if you have ig)

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CHtg0_2DcP1/?igshid=c4v5c1d1c4mq

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I never said I wasn't impressed.........just not filled with astonishment by it.

 

And you are wrong about his accuracy issues being "universally" believed to be uncorrectable.

 

That's hyperbole.

 

When Allen was having accuracy issues in year 1 there were a number of analysts who pointed out that most of them were correctable thru better mechanics and it was often emphasized how inexperienced he was at the position compared to other prospects etc..

 

He then made huge strides on some throws last year,  becoming one of the most accurate short passers in the league.

 

He's taken more strides and the game has clearly slowed for him and he's gotten more help in the receiving corps this year.

 

A switch didn't just come on overnight.........it wasn't a bestowed miracle........this has been a relatively linear advancement..........which isn't always the case with QB play...........but it's not "beyond shocking".  

 

He still has to resolve some deep ball/touch issues but at the current rate one would think that he will get there in the near future.

 

We had a thread recently about fan confidence in McBeane..........and it said that a poll of Bills fans said that 89% were very confident in the direction they had the Bills going............and just a couple posts into it someone posted that there was "endless negativity" from Bills fans.    

 

Some people just can't contain their need to exaggerate.......

so you were impressed? Ok then in other words according to a thesaurus, you might have even been synonymously somewhat .... wait for it.... astonished. 
 

what you call hyperbole I call a legitimate belief routinely stated by numerous football experts. Not agreeing with them but the list of objective football people who believe college completion percentage correlates to NFL performance is long. 

 

some people can’t contain their need to split hairs for the sake of an boredom arguing for no real apparent cause whatsoever 😂 
 

basically we’re both Violently agreeing we’re impressed by how much he has improved... but I’m overstating things because I’m Just little more impressed than you. 

[BADOLBILZ]

19 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

so you were impressed? Ok then in other words according to a thesaurus, you might have even been synonymously somewhat .... wait for it.... astonished. 
 

what you call hyperbole I call a legitimate belief routinely stated by numerous football experts. Not agreeing with them but the list of objective football people who believe college completion percentage correlates to NFL performance is long. 

 

some people can’t contain their need to split hairs for the sake of an boredom arguing for no real apparent cause whatsoever 😂 
 

basically we’re both Violently agreeing we’re impressed by how much he has improved... but I’m overstating things because I’m Just little more impressed than you. 

 

 

Impress and astonish are not synonyms..............that's like saying good and great are exactly the same.

 

I expected and still expect Allen to become great......he's getting there..........that was the point of making him the highest selected QB in franchise history.

 

You and some others are astonished......apparently because *some* people whose opinions you chose to give weight to said that Allen wouldn't be good.....and now he is.

 

I think the theoretical difference is that I expect results and some others want results but are often afraid to even hope for them.

 

I understand that a lot of that is due to Bills ownership/management letting you down.

 

But you gotta' have perspective......the NFL is a business centered around a violent,  ultra-competitive game........you shouldn't feel like you as a fan are less worthy or likely to benefit from the NFL's intention to create parity.   

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Impress and astonish are not synonyms..............that's like saying good and great are exactly the same.

 

 

They are similar words, but with varying magnitudes... just like based on the last few seasons, we expected Josh should be hopefully good this year but the leading passer in the nfl nearly 70% 10 games in, 100+ passer rating, gaudy YPA??? That’s great. Who jumps ten points in completion percentage YoY? 
 

so I guess to your point since Josh has been great this season not just good. It’s more than impressive.. I wish there were a word to convey that. I’ll go with astonishing 

 

You go with whatever suits you.
 

I tend to firm up my expectations around things I have a deep and up close understanding of or are actively influencing.  
 

Absent one of those two things expectation is just a naive version of expectation called  hope. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[FeelingOnYouboty]

From bottom 5 in nearly all statistical categories to Top 5. Unreal!

 

i think he’s going to make another jump from Year 3 to Year 4.

[BruceVilanch]

I'm just here to see the breakdown between "astonished" and "Impressed"