ROCKPILE REVIEW - Just Another Patriots Game

[Shaw66]

It was what Bills fans expected.  It was what Bills fans feared.  In the end, it was what Bills fans wanted. 

 

The Bills beat the Patriots 24-21 in Orchard Park on Sunday.  It wasn’t the dominant performance Bills fans would have liked, but it was the win the Bills needed.

 

Division games are tough.  It seems they’re always tough.  The Bills are 4-0 in the AFC East, and none of the wins was a cake walk.   They have return engagements with the Dolphins and Patriots on the schedule; they will be important games, and they won’t be easy.

 

The cold and the wind and the coaches dictated the style of play.  The Patriots can’t throw the ball all over the field, and it was predictable that they wouldn’t let the Bills do that, either.  It was ground and pound for the entire game.   Both offensive lines won enough of their battles to spring an array of running backs for nearly 400 total yards.  It didn’t hurt that both teams had running quarterbacks. 

 

Josh Allen and the guy many people compare him to, Cam Newton, had similar, limited outings.  Complete 60% of your throws for seven or eight yards per attempt, one turnover.  Allen had a turnover that led to a score, Newton had a turnover that cost the Pats a score. 

 

It was about as even as a game can be.  It was the kind of game that good teams win and bad teams lose, and that is exactly what happened.  After the Bills had taken the lead late in the fourth quarter, they needed one defensive stop.  But the Patriots had had long TD drives on each of their two previous possessions, and now they were marching down the field again.  The 2020 Bills just don’t seem to be able to get a stop when they need one, and they weren’t close to stopping Patriots. 

 

Then Justin Zimmer made the play that good teams make to win games.[MK1]  On second and ten at the Bills 19, Newton made a nice five-yard run. Zimmer trailed the play, tackled Newton. and drove the ball out of Newton’s grip.  Dean Marlowe was there to fall on it, and the game was over.   

 

The Bills are 6-2, the Patriots are 2-5, and the Dolphins are the team that threatens the Bills in the AFC East.  Even the Jets are celebrating. 

 

The Bills don’t look like an elite team, but they’re building.   The defensive line looked solid if not spectacular.  Edmunds showed up to play.  Zimmer, Phillips, Oliver, and Hughes all played like the game meant something.  Still, it wasn’t a championship defense, not close. 

 

Allen looked like a veteran.  He was cool, under control, managed the pocket well and threw well.  The sideline completion to Diggs was really pretty.   Allen found Diggs and Beasley open repeatedly. 

 

Allen deserved better stats.  Davis dropped a sure touchdown, which would have put the Bills up by 7 at the end.  (Still, it was another fourth-quarter game-winning drive for Allen.)   Based on Diggs’s reactions on the sideline, it looked like the interception was on him, not Allen.  If Davis catches the touchdown and Diggs makes the right cut, the Bills would have had a ten-point lead. 

 

Singletary and Moss showed, finally, what had been expected from them from opening day.  Pretty as it was to see them pop through holes and do their things in the open field, the biggest change in the offense seemed to be the presence of Jon Feliciano.  I can’t say I studied his play (at center, no less, with the Morse concussion), but everything seemed crisper along the offensive line with Feliciano out there.

 

Tyler Bass could have crumbled in the fourth quarter.  That was a pressure kick – not long, but into the wind.  Everyone knew this was a big game and this was the kick that could win it.  It looked like business as usual for him, routine, a stroll in the park.  Maybe he turned a corner last week against the Jets, and now we’re seeing Bass the pro.

 

Six wins at the halfway point of the season are nice, but not the schedule gets tough.  Four more wins should make the playoffs, but if the Bills are going to be a team to be reckoned with, they need to find a way to five or six wins in the second half.   That will be tough, but no one said it would be easy.  Seattle and Arizona both will be serious tests. 

 

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

The Rockpile Review is written to share the passion we have for the Buffalo Bills. That passion was born in the Rockpile; its parents were everyday people of western New York who translated their dedication to a full day’s hard work and simple pleasures into love for a pro football team.

 

 

---

 [MK1]

[GETTOTHE50]

6 n 2. ILL TAKE IT

[PUNT750]

I strongly disagree with your takes on "The Bills don’t look like an elite team, but they’re building.   The defensive line looked solid if not spectacular.  Edmunds showed up to play".  Building - - how long can that go on?  Edmunds was awful and the DL is a mess!

[RiotAct]

I agree on Edmunds. He only had a couple plays today that  made me go “wtf”... which is, you know, quite an improvement!

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, RiotAct said:

I agree on Edmunds. He only had a couple plays today that  made me go “wtf”... which is, you know, quite an improvement!

Plus he actually hit some people.  

 

There's more Edmunds hate around here than he deserves.  

[y2zipper]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Plus he actually hit some people.  

 

There's more Edmunds hate around here than he deserves.  

 

Yeah I couldn't agree more with this.

[Figster]

30 minutes ago, PUNT750 said:

I strongly disagree with your takes on "The Bills don’t look like an elite team, but they’re building.   The defensive line looked solid if not spectacular.  Edmunds showed up to play".  Building - - how long can that go on?  Edmunds was awful and the DL is a mess!

 

 

Myself personally, I agree with OP's overall assessment of where the Bills are now and where the Buffalo Bills are going.  Each game is a learning experience and a McD football team is going to make progress IMO. Take the good with the bad and get better in all 3 phases of the game. Its all we can do...

 

The run game looked very strong today ...

 

(To me it looks like Edmunds is playing at around 70% ) I'm not questioning the mans heart or talent. More his health...

Edited November 2, 2020 by Figster

[Heathcliff]

It was awesome to see the running game get on track with 8 or 9 Pats**** in the box. This bodes well for games we want to keep the opposition offense off the field. Also should greatly improve our play action plays. 

[ILBillsfan]

Allen managed the game beautifully with some key audibles....the sweep for Moss that got a first and the WR screen to Brown both key plays/  I'm sure there were others but those two stood out to me.

 

I thought he understood the moment and executed the plan well.

 

You hit on the two plays that put the Bills up by even more.  

 

It feels good to be 6-2 and just as important 4-0 in the division.

[Virgil]

Agree 100%

[hemma]

I wonder if anyone has revisited enough of the game to have a solid guess as to why Bates was pulled for Feliciano at Center + Feliciano replaced at LG with Boettger.

 

Can't argue with the end results, but curious given that all seemed 'ok' before the switch.

[letsgoteam]

14 minutes ago, hemma said:

I wonder if anyone has revisited enough of the game to have a solid guess as to why Bates was pulled for Feliciano at Center + Feliciano replaced at LG with Boettger.

 

Can't argue with the end results, but curious given that all seemed 'ok' before the switch.

I've thought about it some (IDK the answer). I cant remember, was Bates starting before the injury to Morse? 

 

If so, here is my best guess. With Feliciano just coming back from injury (and I think I heard somewhere during the postgame show that it was possible he was going to be on a pitch count before the game started), would it be possible that Bates then would have been the only other player who could play C? If that's the case, maybe they put him on the bench after that series to prevent some kind of weird nightmare scenario where if Bates gets hurt and Feliciano gets hurt/reinjuried/pitchcount then they would be without a C.

[BillsIsrael]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Plus he actually hit some people.  

 

There's more Edmunds hate around here than he deserves.  

He's not playing like last year, don't know if it's health or what - maybe it's the lack of supporting cast, Milano is not 100% and Klein is a missed tackle waiting to happen

[bmur66]

I like Feliciano at center. I thought he filled in there great last year when Morse was out and he stepped right in there again. Could he actually be an upgrade? I'm also guessing that Boettger may be a better run blocker than some of the other guards. 

[Bleedbuffaloblue]

Completely agree with your assessment Shaw. Hopefully improvements will continue to be seen as more players get healthy and adjustments are made.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

It was what Bills fans expected.  It was what Bills fans feared.  In the end, it was what Bills fans wanted. 

 

The Bills beat the Patriots 24-21 in Orchard Park on Sunday.  It wasn’t the dominant performance Bills fans would have liked, but it was the win the Bills needed.

 

Division games are tough.  It seems they’re always tough.  The Bills are 4-0 in the AFC East, and none of the wins was a cake walk.   They have return engagements with the Dolphins and Patriots on the schedule; they will be important games, and they won’t be easy.

 

The cold and the wind and the coaches dictated the style of play.  The Patriots can’t throw the ball all over the field, and it was predictable that they wouldn’t let the Bills do that, either.  It was ground and pound for the entire game.   Both offensive lines won enough of their battles to spring an array of running backs for nearly 400 total yards.  It didn’t hurt that both teams had running quarterbacks. 

 

Josh Allen and the guy many people compare him to, Cam Newton, had similar, limited outings.  Complete 60% of your throws for seven or eight yards per attempt, one turnover.  Allen had a turnover that led to a score, Newton had a turnover that cost the Pats a score. 

 

Allen deserved better stats.  Davis dropped a sure touchdown, which would have put the Bills up by 7 at the end.  (Still, it was another fourth-quarter game-winning drive for Allen.)   Based on Diggs’s reactions on the sideline, it looked like the interception was on him, not Allen.  If Davis catches the touchdown and Diggs makes the right cut, the Bills would have had a ten-point lead. 

 

 

(I read the rest, I'll just reiterate on the opening points)  

The Bills are 4-0 in the division. 

Division games are tough. 

Allen had a turnover that led to a score, and made it his 11th Game winning drive. 

 

 

The return engagements with the Dolphins is week 17.  Will there be something to play for? And Patriots in week 16 (Prime Time?)  Will probably have checked out. Yes, Un Belichick like) 

Edited November 2, 2020 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce

[Billsfan1972]

It's a fair review, but again this "building" crap needs to stop.  Will it stop only when they win the SB?

 

We saw tremendous growth in Allen weeks 1-4 and now again he appears neutered by the the offense.

 

Seems teams have again figured out Dabol, or he doesn't adapt.  

 

Always the same cliches trotted out about division games.  This was a wounded NE team, the weather actually much better then forecast and took a TO in the last 30 seconds to win.  This was a game I wanted to see the Bills win by 2 TDs.

 

Yes we are Bills fans, but I do not see growth yet again this year.  The Offense has regressed after being near the top and the Defense still is not very good.

 

Oh & Tennessee lost to Cincy, the Jets who too had the ball with a chance to tie the game in the last two minutes lost by 26, Rams (the Bills best win dominated by the resurgent Phins)......   

 

But I'll take 6-2.... 

[Kwai San]

8 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Plus he actually hit some people.  

 

There's more Edmunds hate around here than he deserves.  

 

Agree on the undeserved Edmunds hate.  He wasn't and never will be the second coming of Dick Butkus....

6 hours ago, BillsIsrael said:

He's not playing like last year, don't know if it's health or what - maybe it's the lack of supporting cast, Milano is not 100% and Klein is a missed tackle waiting to happen

 

THIS......I would rather folks beat up Klein than Edmunds......Klein is stealing money out there.....needs to be dropped asap.

[Kwai San]

2 hours ago, bmur66 said:

I like Feliciano at center. I thought he filled in there great last year when Morse was out and he stepped right in there again. Could he actually be an upgrade? I'm also guessing that Boettger may be a better run blocker than some of the other guards. 

 

Me too - I worry that Morse might have used up his 9 concussion lives if that is what he truly left the field for.  We may be seeing Mongo at C more than we bargained for.

[Taro T]

8 hours ago, RiotAct said:

I agree on Edmunds. He only had a couple plays today that  made me go “wtf”... which is, you know, quite an improvement!

 

He did have a better game though still did have more WTF's than the stud trade up to draft in the 1st MLB should have in his 3rd season.  Still hoping it's the shoulder that's the reason.

 

Either way, he's better than Klein.  Now, if THAT guy could tackle ...

[clearwater cadet]

Klein is terrible

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

Victory Monday! 

 

One thing I love to watch is anything postgame locker room speech related.  I like to see the vibe of the room and wow were those Guys excited! (Oliver was jumpy! Mcd was going Hulkster for Zimmer)

 

I had an opportunity here in Ontario to walk with Rory Mcllroy during a Saturday round at the Canadian  Open two years ago in which he shot a 64 to take to the lead. I was a walking scorer. It was my first time and pretty much all other golfers who came to the tee would shake your hand off the bat and  introduce themselves. Yet Rory surrounded by Thousands, no intros, gestures, just up to the tee and go. All business, dominated for 18 holes.  But after the round when the camera's were off, and it was him, Myself and maybe 5 other people. He came out and couldn't have been more nicer. You could see his guard was down for at least the time he was around me, he looked relaxed, the weight of his competition that day was over. Mission accomplished.

 

I think we have faced some real adversity since week 4. What happened to the team that could play with anyone? 2 tough losses followed with 2 AFC Divisoin matchups became must wins. Spain being released started to ask some questions of internal bickering going on within the team.. I give MCD credit. The pulse of this team looks more than fine to me. I don't think anyone in that locker room will give up on each other. 

 

This was a huge hurdle to cross, mentally. Getting the best of Bill Belichick who has been a thorn in our sides for so many years..Mission Accomplished. 

 

My post game reaction was "not a fun win". It wasn't meant to take anything away from the win. I love being 6-2. I am about as optimistic as anyone with this Team. I  aspire for this team to be great. I want a Superbowl. I think week 1-4 Bills showed we can be a great team. 

 

  And to be To be honest, I still didn't go to bed feeling like this was a great win. Part of me looked at the opposing team, it wasn't Brady, Gronk, Edleman, Gilmore out there. Just Belichick-and as good as he is with his defensive schemes, his roster is just not the same. That probably had a lot to do with my thinking..

 

 But it was a divisional win, one we had to win and in the past the old Bills would lose these games. More often now than not in the MCD regime we find a way to pull these out which is the mark of a good team. 

 

Someone else mentioned on here, the execution has been a bit disappointing since Week 1-4. I agree 100 percent..We keep self inflicting little things that just frustrate the hell out of me. 3rd and 18, Oliver needs to know the down and situation and that you can't take a hands to the face penalty. Gabriel making that catch in the end zone probably deflates the Pats and puts this game out of reach. Cleaning these things up over the next 8 weeks might just mean the difference between moving on from one round to the next come playoff time .The little things take teams from being good to Great. -8 weeks to go,  LETS GO!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

8 hours ago, hemma said:

I wonder if anyone has revisited enough of the game to have a solid guess as to why Bates was pulled for Feliciano at Center + Feliciano replaced at LG with Boettger.

 

Can't argue with the end results, but curious given that all seemed 'ok' before the switch.

 

Methinks they wanted a vet making line calls against the patriots.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, letsgoteam said:

I've thought about it some (IDK the answer). I cant remember, was Bates starting before the injury to Morse? 

 

If so, here is my best guess. With Feliciano just coming back from injury (and I think I heard somewhere during the postgame show that it was possible he was going to be on a pitch count before the game started), would it be possible that Bates then would have been the only other player who could play C? If that's the case, maybe they put him on the bench after that series to prevent some kind of weird nightmare scenario where if Bates gets hurt and Feliciano gets hurt/reinjuried/pitchcount then they would be without a C.

 

Bates was on the bench before Morse was injured

 

I think it's this simple: Feliciano is a better center than Bates, and it's not close. 

 

Mongo was the backup center last year.  He won out over the guy who was supposed to get the job, Bates, and it wasn't close.   He said in his postgame interview that he loves to play center, that he relishes the pressure, he was the backup center in Oakland and he still prepares every week (in terms of film and game plan study, not practice snaps) as though he's the center.

 

During that drive, it made sense to just make one substitution on the line instead of two.  But afterwards, it made sense to put the best guys on the field.  Possibly on the sidelines they each got a pop quiz on the protection calls and the game plan and Mongo >> Bates.  They were planning to have Feliciano on a snap count, so they were planning to put Boettger in anyway.  Maybe the trainers checked Mongo out a bit and said "yeah, he's doing OK, you can keep him out there" but truthfully - you would probably have needed the help of half our DL to pull him and keep him on the bench. 

 

27 minutes ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

Victory Monday! 

 

One thing I love to watch is anything postgame locker room speech related.  I like to see the vibe of the room and wow were those Guys excited! (Oliver was jumpy! Mcd was going Hulkster for Zimmer)

 

(....)

 

Someone else mentioned on here, the execution has been a bit disappointing since Week 1-4. I agree 100 percent..We keep self inflicting little things that just frustrate the hell out of me. 3rd and 18, Oliver needs to know the down and situation and that you can't take a hands to the face penalty. Gabriel making that catch in the end zone probably deflates the Pats and puts this game out of reach. Cleaning these things up over the next 8 weeks might just mean the difference between moving on from one round to the next come playoff time .The little things take teams from being good to Great. -8 weeks to go,  LETS GO!!

 

I think one thing to remember is that we were still making a lot of mistakes, self-inflicted wounds, weeks 1-4 and the defense was porous.  We gave up 410 yds to Miami, 478 to the Rams, and 383 yds to the Raiders.  7 penalties for 79 yards against the Jets; 5 for 81 yards against LA.  -1 on TO vs MIA, -2 vs Rams.

 

We were just explosive enough on offense to cover it.  IMO, a lot of that explosiveness was offenses looking at Allen's film from last year and saying "yeah, OK, make him throw it deep, he can't".  For the Rams, it was "yeah, he did it Game 1 and 2 but those were the Jets and Miami".  After 4 weeks of that stuff it was "Well Then, Next Plan!" for Tennessee.  After Tennessee, KC said "OK, this works - take away the deep stuff, play the soft zone and they can't run on it".

 

What I'm anxious to see is whether we sold out our passing game in some sense to be able to run like that (analogous to how we sell out our passing game to stifle the run). Or was it just that Daboll naturally has a "low interest rate" when it comes to designing run plays and this week McDermott "Hulked" him and basically said, "We will Run the Ball, or You're going over the Falls - No Barrel."  I get it that the weather made passing problematic - but are we going to be able to pull off a more balanced attack going forward?

 

Speaking of balanced attack, we've got a real two-headed monster coming our way next week.  So far we can stifle the passing game, but get run all over; or, we can stifle the run, and "bombs away!".  Can we pull off a more balanced defense?

[Lagoon Blues]

8 hours ago, hemma said:

I wonder if anyone has revisited enough of the game to have a solid guess as to why Bates was pulled for Feliciano at Center + Feliciano replaced at LG with Boettger.

 

Can't argue with the end results, but curious given that all seemed 'ok' before the switch.

Pure speculation on my part, but I had wondered if they didn't want the only other center on the field at all as a just in case kind of thing if Feliciano happened to go down also.

26 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Methinks they wanted a vet making line calls against the patriots.  

Good call....seems more logical than what I had been thinking.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 minutes ago, Lagoon Blues said:

Pure speculation on my part, but I had wondered if they didn't want the only other center on the field at all as a just in case kind of thing if Feliciano happened to go down also.

Good call....seems more logical than what I had been thinking.

 

And they definitely messed with Feliciano.  They ran several plays with no down linemen to disguise things.  Not sure how the younger player handles that.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

And they definitely messed with Feliciano.  They ran several plays with no down linemen to disguise things.  Not sure how the younger player handles that.  

 

I need to see the all-22 but Feliciano's response seemed to be "Crunchy!  And Good with Ketsup!"

[Shaw66]

8 hours ago, BillsIsrael said:

He's not playing like last year, don't know if it's health or what - maybe it's the lack of supporting cast, Milano is not 100% and Klein is a missed tackle waiting to happen

I think it has to be his health.  He got dinged again yesterday.  He may not be back to full strength until next season.  Milano, to.  It would be nice to have the bye this week. 

 

As for Klein, I couldn't agree more.   He doesn't look like he can tackle in the open field.  He may be a straight-on run stuffer, but not a guy who can play in space.  

[Shaw66]

56 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Bates was on the bench before Morse was injured

 

I think it's this simple: Feliciano is a better center than Bates, and it's not close. 

 

Mongo was the backup center last year.  He won out over the guy who was supposed to get the job, Bates, and it wasn't close.   He said in his postgame interview that he loves to play center, that he relishes the pressure, he was the backup center in Oakland and he still prepares every week (in terms of film and game plan study, not practice snaps) as though he's the center.

 

During that drive, it made sense to just make one substitution on the line instead of two.  But afterwards, it made sense to put the best guys on the field.  Possibly on the sidelines they each got a pop quiz on the protection calls and the game plan and Mongo >> Bates.  They were planning to have Feliciano on a snap count, so they were planning to put Boettger in anyway.  Maybe the trainers checked Mongo out a bit and said "yeah, he's doing OK, you can keep him out there" but truthfully - you would probably have needed the help of half our DL to pull him and keep him on the bench. 

 

 

I think one thing to remember is that we were still making a lot of mistakes, self-inflicted wounds, weeks 1-4 and the defense was porous.  We gave up 410 yds to Miami, 478 to the Rams, and 383 yds to the Raiders.  7 penalties for 79 yards against the Jets; 5 for 81 yards against LA.  -1 on TO vs MIA, -2 vs Rams.

 

We were just explosive enough on offense to cover it.  IMO, a lot of that explosiveness was offenses looking at Allen's film from last year and saying "yeah, OK, make him throw it deep, he can't".  For the Rams, it was "yeah, he did it Game 1 and 2 but those were the Jets and Miami".  After 4 weeks of that stuff it was "Well Then, Next Plan!" for Tennessee.  After Tennessee, KC said "OK, this works - take away the deep stuff, play the soft zone and they can't run on it".

 

What I'm anxious to see is whether we sold out our passing game in some sense to be able to run like that (analogous to how we sell out our passing game to stifle the run). Or was it just that Daboll naturally has a "low interest rate" when it comes to designing run plays and this week McDermott "Hulked" him and basically said, "We will Run the Ball, or You're going over the Falls - No Barrel."  I get it that the weather made passing problematic - but are we going to be able to pull off a more balanced attack going forward?

 

Speaking of balanced attack, we've got a real two-headed monster coming our way next week.  So far we can stifle the passing game, but get run all over; or, we can stifle the run, and "bombs away!".  Can we pull off a more balanced defense?

Hap -

 

There's a lot of good stuff in here.   What you say about Feliciano sounds exactly right.  He probably was the backup center all along, but when Morse went down in the middle of the drive it was simply "next man up."  When the drive ended and they went to sideline, the coaches switched up to what they would have done if they had started the game without Morse.  

 

I don't think at all it's about selling out the passing game.  I think what we're seeing around the league is that everyone has recognized that the defense has to sell out to stop the mid- and deep-passing threats.  The Bills did it against KC.   Everyone is doing it.   The message around the league is that you MUST be able to play the run-and-possession passing game.   Belichick watched the film, and he knew his offense.   He knew that he was cooked if he got into a shootout with the Bills.   It was, in a sense, Super Bowl XXV all over again.   Same game plan.  Stop the explosive passing and force the Bills to run the ball.  On offense, run the hell out of the ball and try to run the clock.  Reduce the number of possessions the Bills have to go off on you.   Same plan.   In both games, you keep the score close and try to steal the win in the end.   It was wide right many years ago; it was a Newton fumble yesterday.  You win some and lose some, but at least you're in the game at the end.  

 

McDermott's system is to build his team over the season.  As I've said several times, that's especially true this year, with the shortened off-season and pre-season workouts.   The Bills are learning how to play different  styles.  Every team is, but McDermott is good at building like this.  It's what Belichick does, too.  That's why we get these ugly games.   But as others have said, his teams always have grit and determination.  They stay in the game and they keep fighting.   Zimmer's game-saving play is the kind of play that McDermott's system produces.   His teams are full of guys who don't quit on the game.  McDermott's season-plan is to win early-season games one way or another while the team is growing into an actually good team.   He's succeeded this year, going 6-2 in the first half while trying to get his team up to a high level of play.   Whether his team will get to that level is an open question - I certainly have my doubts.   But after watching McD for a few seasons, I know not to give up on him.  

 

Finally, back to the passing game.  One measure of Allen's growth as a field general is that he is not throwing deep against coverages designed to stop the deep ball.  He won't.   He understands his  job and he executes.   I watch other games, and these less mature QBs are bombing the ball out there against double coverage or even tight single coverage.  It works sometimes, but sometimes it's a disaster.   Allen doesn't do that any more.   Allen's throwing the ball to guys who are open, who will catch, and who will have a chance to make a play after the catch.  He looked at those seven defensive backs Belichick apparently had on the field often, and he knew to avoid the low-probability throws.   Not that it's exactly and example, but I thought the pass that Davis dropped in the end zone was evidence of Allen's maturity.  I don't know if he knew at the snap that that was where he had a shot at the TD, but he figured it out sometime.   You could see him thinking and deciding to make that throw.   It was a  big-time QB play in crunch time.  My only question is whether there was too much pace on it.   It looked like Davis just couldn't handle the fastball, and a fastball might not have been necessary.  Davis should be used to by now, but getting just the right touch on balls is a fine point that Allen will continue to work on.  

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Finally, back to the passing game.  One measure of Allen's growth as a field general is that he is not throwing deep against coverages designed to stop the deep ball.  He won't.   He understands his  job and he executes.   I watch other games, and these less mature QBs are bombing the ball out there against double coverage or even tight single coverage.  It works sometimes, but sometimes it's a disaster.   Allen doesn't do that any more.   Allen's throwing the ball to guys who are open, who will catch, and who will have a chance to make a play after the catch.  He looked at those seven defensive backs Belichick apparently had on the field often, and he knew to avoid the low-probability throws.   Not that it's exactly and example, but I thought the pass that Davis dropped in the end zone was evidence of Allen's maturity.  I don't know if he knew at the snap that that was where he had a shot at the TD, but he figured it out sometime.   You could see him thinking and deciding to make that throw.   It was a  big-time QB play in crunch time.  My only question is whether there was too much pace on it.   It looked like Davis just couldn't handle the fastball, and a fastball might not have been necessary.  Davis should be used to by now, but getting just the right touch on balls is a fine point that Allen will continue to work on. 

 

Exactly.  More to the point - in the first half of the Tenn game and parts of the KC game and even a few throws of the Jets game - Allen DID try to force the ball out there, even into triple coverage on Diggs at least once that I saw.  Then the light bulb turned on and he started to get it.

 

You can kind of "read the tea leaves" of the expectations Daboll has for Josh from listening to his Monday pressers.  He was pleased that Josh "got it" the second half against the Titans and overall not too worried about the KC game.  He was somewhat frustrated with Josh in the Jets game because there were times when a safe throw to an open guy was there and Josh didn't pull the trigger, or where Josh should have checked to a different play and didn't.  I think Daboll and Josh had a little bit of a "come to Jesus" meeting this week and Josh "Got It". 

 

I hadn't considered the impact of the balls Josh is throwing on Davis, and it's a good point.  In the first 4 games, Josh generally had more time behind our OL and was able to throw with some touch.  Since Tennessee, he's been under more pressure and it shows - he's throwing harder and with less touch, and a bit less accurately.  Davis may need to work with the WR coaches and with the other WR to pick up his game on catching balls with more "mustard", and Josh needs to work on maintaining those touch throws when he has defenders in his face and at his feet.

[Figster]

14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Plus he actually hit some people.  

 

There's more Edmunds hate around here than he deserves.  

 

12 hours ago, BillsIsrael said:

He's not playing like last year, don't know if it's health or what - maybe it's the lack of supporting cast, Milano is not 100% and Klein is a missed tackle waiting to happen

I think theres an important distinction to be made about hating a player vs critique on how a player is playing. After going back and removing some of my posts last night on this thread then the Edmunds thread. I thought to myself, I was looking for feedback. So I tried to ask a couple of our TBD on board game analysts. (I like to call them) When a player becomes a Bill they are like family to me. Even after their gone I never stop rooting for them. When a player has played below his capabilities for a long length of time then it begs to ask the question why. Or how much this players play changes the dynamics around him.

 

So just to be clear a critique on a player doesn't always equate to hate.

 

I'm sure others feel the same...

Edited November 2, 2020 by Figster

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, Figster said:

 

So just to be clear a critique on a player doesn't always equate to hate.

 

I'm sure others feel the same...

You're being too literal.  When people use "hate" as I did, it doesn't mean hate in the sense of hatred.   I agree, there are very few people here who actually hate Edmunds.   

 

When someone says there's hate on this message board, that means to me that there is a negative reaction to that player's contribution to the team that usually is more negative that is warranted.  There was a lot of hate here last season for Star,.   Fair amount of hate here this year for Barkley as a backup.  

 

In that sense, there's been a lot of hate for Edmunds this season.   He isn't performing as well as people hoped/expected, and you see people posting that if he doesn't do this or that, he should be cut or traded or something.  

 

There's plenty to critique in his play, for sure, and I've been doing that pretty regularly for most of the season.  

Edited November 3, 2020 by Shaw66

[Figster]

50 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You're being too literal.  When people use "hate" as I did, it doesn't mean hate in the sense of hatred.   I agree, there are very few people here who actually hate Edmunds.   

 

When someone says there's hate on this message board, that means to me that there is a negative reaction to that player's contribution to the team that usually is more negative that is warranted.  There was a lot of hate here last season for Star, hate here last season for Star.   Fair amount of hate here this year for Barkley as a backup.  

 

In that sense, there's been a lot of hate for Edmunds this season.   He isn't performing as well as people hoped/expected, and you see people posting that if he doesn't do this or that, he should be cut or traded or something.  

 

There's plenty to critique in his play, for sure, and I've been doing that pretty regularly for most of the season.  

Thanks for the explanation.

 

Unfortunately I feel like its become somewhat of a convenient and lazy way for some people to lump everyone who critiques up into one category. Haters are going to hate for lack of a better way of putting it. Instead of discussing the elephant in the room.

 

With all due respect Shaw,

 

Thanks again for explaining yourself,

 

I understand...

Edited November 2, 2020 by Figster

[Shaw66]

6 hours ago, Figster said:

Thanks for the explanation.

 

Unfortunately I feel like its become somewhat of a convenient and lazy way for some people to lump everyone who critiques up into one category. Haters are going to hate for lack of a better way of putting it. Instead of discussing the elephant in the room.

 

With all due respect Shaw,

 

Thanks again for explaining yourself,

 

I understand...

Gotta say I don't use "haters" much.   When I used it here, I certainly wasn't intending to include anyone who criticizes Tremaine.  It was more of an "if the shoe fits, wear it" kind of comment.  

[Figster]

38 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Gotta say I don't use "haters" much.   When I used it here, I certainly wasn't intending to include anyone who criticizes Tremaine.  It was more of an "if the shoe fits, wear it" kind of comment.  

We definitely have enough Edmunds critique going on around here.

 

I was happy to remove some of mine. 

 

 

[Stroke 17]

i am happy with the win, check that I am really f***ing happy with the win over the Pats and I dont care who is or is not on the team. Now, to my concern. the first three games of the season the offense seemed it couldn't be stopped. Receivers always seemed to be open and Josh seemed to find the the guy that was the most open. Josh seemed to be care free and playing like he was having fun slinging it around. Then when the team went to Tennessee it seemed to change. I sensed Josh had changed, he seemed hesitant, measured, and looked really serious unlike the happy go lucky guy of the early season. 

  Just curious as to what others think? The offense and the passing game is not the same. Is it the play calling, the QB, the receivers or have defenses figured out the scheme. Something has changed. i want my early season offense back, where did it go?

[Punching Bag]

16 hours ago, Kwai San said:

THIS......I would rather folks beat up Klein than Edmunds......Klein is stealing money out there.....needs to be dropped asap.

 

If you let him go during year he gets paid anyways.   $11,300,000 is guaranteed.  Have him play on special teams if needed but no sense throwing away money.

[Kwai San]

6 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

If you let him go during year he gets paid anyways.   $11,300,000 is guaranteed.  Have him play on special teams if needed but no sense throwing away money.

 

Ouch - I was unaware it for that much - UGH!  Good work to stand around and get pushed around.....

[Billsfan1972]

8 hours ago, Stroke 17 said:

i am happy with the win, check that I am really f***ing happy with the win over the Pats and I dont care who is or is not on the team. Now, to my concern. the first three games of the season the offense seemed it couldn't be stopped. Receivers always seemed to be open and Josh seemed to find the the guy that was the most open. Josh seemed to be care free and playing like he was having fun slinging it around. Then when the team went to Tennessee it seemed to change. I sensed Josh had changed, he seemed hesitant, measured, and looked really serious unlike the happy go lucky guy of the early season. 

  Just curious as to what others think? The offense and the passing game is not the same. Is it the play calling, the QB, the receivers or have defenses figured out the scheme. Something has changed. i want my early season offense back, where did it go?

I am an Allen fan & thus unequivocally blame it on McD and a change in philosophy.  When things go well this team is fun to watch, but then they too go into a shell and it seemd the first four weeks they had figured it out.

 

Tennessee the int on the first possession tahnks to a drop and the team mentally didn't recover.  

 

Three & out vs. KC when Brown drops a third down pass right between his #'s and then the O stalls.

 

I see this too often from McD.  He thinks his Defense will create turnovers, bail them out, come up with stops and has regressed to playing the game between the 20's.  

 

Sure the run was working vs. NE, but only 18 passes in a tight game????  Could you imagine  Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers or any great QB and only 18 passes in a game where you never led by more then 7?  That is McD. 

 

Sure windy so maybe no long passes, but they haven't thrown long much at all since week 4. 

 

And we've seen plenty of drops too.   

[Stroke 17]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I am an Allen fan & thus unequivocally blame it on McD and a change in philosophy.  When things go well this team is fun to watch, but then they too go into a shell and it seemd the first four weeks they had figured it out.

 

Tennessee the int on the first possession tahnks to a drop and the team mentally didn't recover.  

 

Three & out vs. KC when Brown drops a third down pass right between his #'s and then the O stalls.

 

I see this too often from McD.  He thinks his Defense will create turnovers, bail them out, come up with stops and has regressed to playing the game between the 20's.  

 

Sure the run was working vs. NE, but only 18 passes in a tight game????  Could you imagine  Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers or any great QB and only 18 passes in a game where you never led by more then 7?  That is McD. 

 

Sure windy so maybe no long passes, but they haven't thrown long much at all since week 4. 

 

And we've seen plenty of drops too.   

I seem to agree, the coaching staff seem to get a bit spooked when things aren't perfect. I need/ want the offense and Josh to get it up and passing again. If defenses have figured out the Bills offense then it is up to the coaching staff to figure out ways to get it done. With this QB and the receivers he now has he should be put into a position to be like other young QB and offenses in the league,

On a final note, I want the Bills coaches to have a mentality that its never enough, always try to get more, kick em when they're down. I remember back in the 90's there was an older mild mannered grandmother who sat behind me, ( Sec H, Row 2, Aisle 2) no matter how many points the Bills were up, no matter how much time left in the game she would stand up and scream at the top of her  lungs, "MORE POINTS< DAMIT< MORE POINTS"