Lorax discusses Tremaine Edmunds

[Mr. WEO]

13 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Playing downhill?....he lost me on that comment.  

 

Yeah he looks slow.  Not sure how shoulder would impact speed.

[JustWinPlease]

4 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Prime is not necessarily chronological age, it's experience too. This is year 3, if his age is holding him back, maybe don't draft someone that young who won't be in his prime by the time his first contract is up.

I get that, but it's not at 22 years old either...and it's not like he's getting any help from his teammates either.

But you draft a kid that young for that reason, you get several more years out of him than you would someone else.

[Royale with Cheese]

19 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

He's definitely playing downhill. The problem is he has no brakes and is coming down that hill at a bad angle, so one stutter step and the ball carrier goes right past him.

 

The angles on him missed tackles are infuriating.

 

I won't say he's out of position, or misdiagnosing plays, since we truly have no clue what his actual assignments are.

 

My main criticism, and what I will ding him for, is his lack of instincts on chasing down runners and making open field tackles. Dude should be a huge, fast beast swallowing up runners. Instead he looks like a baby giraffe learning how to run.

 

There goes Tremaine Edmunds chasing down the ball carrier after biting on play action.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Part of the defensive gameplan seemed to be just that: Sell out for the run and dare Tannehill to beat us.

 

I tend to feel that what killed us was

1) putting the D in crap field positions 3x with a turnover on pass deflection (INT), a 40 yd punt return, and an INT.

2) 10 accepted penalties, 9 of them presnap.  Can't win easily when you gift the opponent 1st and 5, 3rd and 2 etc.

3) a couple of bad, busted plays on D analogous to INT.  Can't win easily when you let them convert 3rd and 10 or worse, 3rd and 20 or totally lose contain on a mobile QB

 

 

Agree totally with 1 and 2. I think the inability to stop play action was more significant than 3).

[SirAndrew]

3 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I don't know what film the Loarx is looking at but all I see is a LB'er getter pushed backwards and out of position on way too many plays. He had one or two good plays in coverage but besides that he looked like paper mâché. Lorax doing a review of Edmunds performance feels like Nepotism

Agree, what’s Lorax going to say ? If he calls out Edmunds for looking bad, everyone’s going to criticize Lorax for throwing a former teammate under the bus. 

[MJS]

13 hours ago, gobills404 said:

 

Well that sucks. So it's a scheme issue and the Bills defense is being too predictable. That seems tough to fix.

 

Unfortunately teams seem to have this McDermott defense figured out. I guess they need to do some self scouting and mix things up, but that's hard to do at a fundamental level.

[Not at the table Karlos]

11 hours ago, Penfield45 said:

Edmunds just needs to switch positions, he will never make it as a MLB. 

 

he is the prototypical 3-4 edge rusher. 

He’s too weak at the point of attack for the edge and blitzing. If he’s anything it would be a 34 inside backer. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, MJS said:

Well that sucks. So it's a scheme issue and the Bills defense is being too predictable. That seems tough to fix.

 

Unfortunately teams seem to have this McDermott defense figured out. I guess they need to do some self scouting and mix things up, but that's hard to do at a fundamental level.

 

@Buffalo716 was responding when I asked that same question and the conclusion seemed to be that it's probably fixable without too much horror.

 

The Bills like other teams should have a combination of in house QC people and purchased external analytics that show down, distance, the opponent's personnel package, how we lined up, and what our coverage actually was. 

 

So in theory, it should be a pretty straightforward task to answer "are we consistently running the same plays in the same game situations - showing the same look then switching to the same coverage?

 

If so, it's a question of are there other coverages that would also work in those situations, and/or are there other pre-snap 'looks' we could show to disguise that coverage?

 

Then utilize that information when calling plays.

 

The first step would be to recognize the problem of having become too predictable and prioritize coming up with solutions.  The mass of the grunt work should be something one can assign low level people or use purchased data to achieve.

[MJS]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

@Buffalo716 was responding when I asked that same question and the conclusion seemed to be that it's probably fixable without too much horror.

 

The Bills like other teams should have a combination of in house QC people and purchased external analytics that show down, distance, the opponent's personnel package, how we lined up, and what our coverage actually was. 

 

So in theory, it should be a pretty straightforward task to answer "are we consistently running the same plays in the same game situations - showing the same look then switching to the same coverage?

 

If so, it's a question of are there other coverages that would also work in those situations, and/or are there other pre-snap 'looks' we could show to disguise that coverage?

 

Then utilize that information when calling plays.

 

The first step would be to recognize the problem of having become too predictable and prioritize coming up with solutions.  The mass of the grunt work should be something one can assign low level people or use purchased data to achieve.

That's what I hope. I hope it isn't that the scheme has been figured out at a fundamental level. Let's hope they get it figured out.

[appoo]

We seem to run a lot of gap assignment on defense. At least that's my thoughts when I'm watching the D.  It's not a defense where backers are necessarily reading the olineman and RB. They diagnose run, they diagnose a side, and they fill a gap, trusting the DTs to fill gaps as well, and for the DEs and corners to contain. 

 

If you're watching Edmunds in the wrong gap, it might be that's actually an assignment thing. 

 

This actually might be in response to the Rams gashing the Bills D. The Rams I think use a lot of zone blocking scheme, and if you have linebackers, who read, react, fill - it's easy to open up cut backs in the middle for a RB to find. A way to counter that is with gap assignment football.  The Raiders also use such a zone blocking system with Jacobs, who's a one cut and go player, and they held Jacobs to 3.2 YPC,  on 48 yards.  The Titans are also a heavy Zone blocking team, and again the Bills stifled the run.

 

I don't have the film to breakdown, but my first guess is after the Rams game, the adjustment was to goto a intentional gap assignment defense - I mean I saw Tremaine a few times go straight into a gap on the snap, after seeing run. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by appoo

[Nextmanup]

Everyone on the field is playing a bit "hurt" but they shouldn't be out there if they are "injured." 

 

I think Edmunds is enough on the injured side of things that maybe he shouldn't be out there.

 

Not sure.

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

This thread is hilarious...  two different individuals With expertise and who understand the game with no reason to say anything on the topic one with breakdowns and video evidence... “Tremaine is doing his job, flashing great plays, scheme and run fits are getting foiled, impact players are hurt or missing”
 

Whiners on the board; “My fingers are in my ears and I’m yelling  and Tremaine can’t play MLB, sucks at everything, it’s all his fault”

[Nextmanup]

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

This thread is hilarious...  two different individuals With expertise and who understand the game with no reason to say anything on the topic one with breakdowns and video evidence... “Tremaine is doing his job, flashing great plays, scheme and run fits are getting foiled, impact players are hurt or missing”
 

Whiners on the board; “My fingers are in my ears and I’m yelling  and Tremaine can’t play MLB, sucks at everything, it’s all his fault”

Why devote your time to such a frivolous thread, then?

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

9 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Everyone on the field is playing a bit "hurt" but they shouldn't be out there if they are "injured." 

 

I think Edmunds is enough on the injured side of things that maybe he shouldn't be out there.

 

Not sure.

 

 

Looked a lot like he did what josh did to his shoulder when he landed wired in jets game. 

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Everyone on the field is playing a bit "hurt" but they shouldn't be out there if they are "injured." 

 

I think Edmunds is enough on the injured side of things that maybe he shouldn't be out there.

 

Not sure.

 

 

Here he is stacking Lewan...maybe the nastiest LT in the game

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

22 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Amazing.... only two people have any idea what they are talking about and fans are just fans who don't have a clue. 

 

One of those two people used to play for the Bills and had a relationship with everyone on the team and is good friends with the guy being criticized. No biased there at all. 😅

it’s the same “fans”, that think Sammy and Dareus should still be here, Allen stinks and always Will, Sean and Beane are idiots, Frazier should be fired, along with Daboll, Dodson or Milano should be MLB, Phillips is the missing link for Run D, Star stinks, White faked his back injury and who generally only speak up around here after losses..  yeah clueless, curmudgeons, different Jerry Sullivan burner accounts...  I won’t pretend to understand why it happens 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

it’s the same “fans”, that think Sammy and Dareus should still be here, Allen stinks and always Will, Sean and Beane are idiots, Frazier should be fired, along with Daboll, Dodson or Milano should be MLB, Cam Phillips is the missing link for Run D, Star stinks, White faked his back injury and who generally only speak up around here after losses..  yeah clueless, curmudgeons, different Jerry Sullivan burner accounts...  I won’t pretend to understand why it happens 

Majority of fans don't understand what they're watching on Sundays

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

29 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Here he is stacking Lewan...maybe the nastiest LT in the game

 

 

 

On both of these it looks like he made a decent play no?

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

On both of these it looks like he made a decent play no?

correct

[BuffaloRebound]

I hope those 2 plays aren’t the best arguments in support of Edmunds having a good game.  One play I vividly remember was a short yardage play where it almost appeared Edmunds thought #75 on the Titans had the ball and the RB who actually had the ball was nowhere near and easily got the 1st down.  We all want him to play well, not sure how anybody could say he played well on Tuesday, but that was pretty much the case for the whole team.  To my untrained eye, Hughes was the worst player on the field.  

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

I hope those 2 plays aren’t the best arguments in support of Edmunds having a good game.  One play I vividly remember was a short yardage play where it almost appeared Edmunds thought #75 on the Titans had the ball and the RB who actually had the ball was nowhere near and easily got the 1st down.  We all want him to play well, not sure how anybody could say he played well on Tuesday, but that was pretty much the case for the whole team.  To my untrained eye, Hughes was the worst player on the field.  

Go ahead and show the clip

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

I hope those 2 plays aren’t the best arguments in support of Edmunds having a good game.  One play I vividly remember was a short yardage play where it almost appeared Edmunds thought #75 on the Titans had the ball and the RB who actually had the ball was nowhere near and easily got the 1st down.  We all want him to play well, not sure how anybody could say he played well on Tuesday, but that was pretty much the case for the whole team.  To my untrained eye, Hughes was the worst player on the field.  

 

I'd say taron johnson was the worst player on the field.  3rd and 20 in man coverage with kalif raymond.  

 

D-line play is hard to diagnose to me.  If a player loses the edge it may be by design, you never really know.

[Royale with Cheese]

27 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

it’s the same “fans”, that think Sammy and Dareus should still be here, Allen stinks and always Will, Sean and Beane are idiots, Frazier should be fired, along with Daboll, Dodson or Milano should be MLB, Phillips is the missing link for Run D, Star stinks, White faked his back injury and who generally only speak up around here after losses..  yeah clueless, curmudgeons, different Jerry Sullivan burner accounts...  I won’t pretend to understand why it happens 

 

Just a few more:

Dion Dawkins should be moved to guard.

Jordan Poyer sucked in Cleveland and will suck here too.

Cole Beasley kinda sucks.

 

We got the wrong Josh.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I'd say taron johnson was the worst player on the field.  3rd and 20 in man coverage with kalif raymond.  

 

D-line play is hard to diagnose to me.  If a player loses the edge it may be by design, you never really know.

99 is the weak link right now

 

I expect a significant dline adjustment over the next couple games

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

That's what I hope. I hope it isn't that the scheme has been figured out at a fundamental level. Let's hope they get it figured out.

The scheme itself is fine

 

Their play calling within it has become very predictable.  They've had a lot of success the last 3 years, so they really haven't had to change much

 

Other coaches have looked at their film and have finally figured out how to attack its play calling. because the bills are very predictable on first and third Downs now

 

They just need to switch up the play calling a bit and become less predictable and things should smooth out

[BuffaloRebound]

14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Go ahead and show the clip

Ask and you shall receive.

Henry’s 1yd TD run.  Edmunds unblocked in the hole inexplicably goes after #75 and Henry runs right past him. https://www.tennesseetitans.com/video/derrick-henry-rushes-for-1-yard-touchdown-vs-buffalo-bills

[GoBills808]

Just now, BuffaloRebound said:

Ask and you shall receive.

Henry’s 1yd TD run.  Edmunds unblocked in the hole inexplicably goes after #75 and Henry runs right past him. https://www.tennesseetitans.com/video/derrick-henry-rushes-for-1-yard-touchdown-vs-buffalo-bills

yeah that's on Klein

[YoloinOhio]

21 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I'd say taron johnson was the worst player on the field.  3rd and 20 in man coverage with kalif raymond.  

 

D-line play is hard to diagnose to me.  If a player loses the edge it may be by design, you never really know.

Taron J has been bad since about week 2. I would play cam lewis in the slot . Taron isn’t bad vs the run but he cannot cover 

Edited October 16, 2020 by YoloinOhio

[BuffaloRebound]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

yeah that's on Klein

Huh?  That’s on Edmunds side.  He’s unblocked, is the first guy with a chance to hit Henry and inexplicably peels off towards the O-Lineman.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Taron J has been bad since about week 2. I would play cam lewis in the slot . Taron isn’t bad vs the run but he cannot cover 

 

And he was getting blasted in the run game against LA too.

[Penfield45]

if Edmunds is hurt then why the hell is he playing and why hasn't the front office made a trade for a suitable replacement? 

 

seems like very poor planning from them with the depth at the LB position. he clearly isn't healthy enough to be playing out there if he has to avoid tackling a certain way 

[formerlyofCtown]

16 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Playing downhill?....he lost me on that comment.  

Yes.  Because your opinion carries more weight than Lorax.

2 minutes ago, Penfield45 said:

if Edmunds is hurt then why the hell is he playing and why hasn't the front office made a trade for a suitable replacement? 

 

seems like very poor planning from them with the depth at the LB position. he clearly isn't healthy enough to be playing out there if he has to avoid tackling a certain way 

LBs for this scheme are not easy to find.

[Wayne Cubed]

24 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Just a few more:

Dion Dawkins should be moved to guard.

Jordan Poyer sucked in Cleveland and will suck here too.

Cole Beasley kinda sucks.

 

We got the wrong Josh.

And another...

 

Oliver does nothing on defense 

 

😂

[formerlyofCtown]

20 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

The scheme itself is fine

 

Their play calling within it has become very predictable.  They've had a lot of success the last 3 years, so they really haven't had to change much

 

Other coaches have looked at their film and have finally figured out how to attack its play calling. because the bills are very predictable on first and third Downs now

 

They just need to switch up the play calling a bit and become less predictable and things should smooth out

Yes because they couldn't figure it out when he was in Carolina but somehow in Buffalo they have finally figured it out.😉

6 minutes ago, Penfield45 said:

if Edmunds is hurt then why the hell is he playing and why hasn't the front office made a trade for a suitable replacement? 

 

seems like very poor planning from them with the depth at the LB position. he clearly isn't healthy enough to be playing out there if he has to avoid tackling a certain way 

Really???

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Huh?  That’s on Edmunds side.  He’s unblocked, is the first guy with a chance to hit Henry and inexplicably peels off towards the O-Lineman.  

Your analysis is wrong

 

 

[appoo]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Here he is stacking Lewan...maybe the nastiest LT in the game

 

 

 

In that first play, you immediately see Poyer fly to spot, and Edmunds doesn't even take a scrape step, meaning he's not looking for the last defenders hip, as a target. 

 

So that's gap assignment for Edmunds, and contain responsibility for the safety. He deserves credit here for avoiding the block and making the play with force, but you give just as much credit to the scheme in this instance. It's why you play it. Edmunds isn't wasting time trying to figure out which gap to fill. 

18 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Taron J has been bad since about week 2. I would play cam lewis in the slot . Taron isn’t bad vs the run but he cannot cover 

Not a great way to describe a corner back

Edited October 16, 2020 by appoo

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, appoo said:

 

In that first play, you immediately see Poyer fly to spot, and Edmunds doesn't even take a scrape step, meaning he's not looking for the last defenders hip, as a target. 

 

So that's gap assignment for Edmunds, and contain responsibility for the safety. He deserves credit here for avoiding the block and making the play with force, but you give just as much credit to the scheme in this instance. It's why you play it. Edmunds isn't wasting time trying to figure out which gap to fill. 

Then consider that without DTs who can win 1v1 offenses are immediately getting a guard or tackle into second level on Edmunds

[appoo]

Btw the 2nd play in that clip is a reflection of why play action is such a weapon. Edmunds didn't trust that was going to be a run until he saw the RB with the ball, rather he was probably thinking play action pass, and by then Lewan was already on him. And if Edmunds doesn't shed Lewan, that's probably a 10-15 yard run, even more if he makes Poyer miss

[ctk232]

Didn't check the Frasier thread, so apologies if this has been mentioned there - but since there's still a cohort with their Edmunds pitchforks still sharpened, Joe B put a segment of the  Athletic's All22 in about Edmunds today:

 

Quote

On a night full of defensive shortcomings, the performances of linebackers Tremaine Edmunds and Tyrel Dodson were promising. I was wrong in my initial observations of Edmunds’ play Tuesday, though some of the criticisms do hold up. The film, as it often does, told a different story. Edmunds looked the most confident and decisive that he has since his return from the injury. He wasn’t missing tackles as he was before. He became more of a force in coverage and was getting away from blocks more effectively than he was in the previous two games. The block shedding has been a problem for much of Edmunds’ career, but it’s been worse since his injury. Thankfully, the shoulder injury seems to be healing. If Edmunds can return to form and Matt Milano can get back on the field, the Bills will be trending in the right direction at linebacker.

 

Dodson was also a pleasant surprise Tuesday. He continued to struggle in some pass coverage areas, but it was quite an improvement from his performance against the Dolphins. The second-year player must have self-scouted over the past few weeks because he slowed his game down and didn’t go for nearly as many play-action fakes as he did in Week 2. He also showed he’s a more dependable option than A.J. Klein to fill in for Edmunds or Milano at linebacker. Klein will continue to be an option in base defense as a strongside linebacker because of his strengths against the run, but it’s not surprising Dodson passed Klein by in the Bills’ nickel formations with just two linebackers.

 

1 hour ago, dneveu said:

 

I'd say taron johnson was the worst player on the field.  3rd and 20 in man coverage with kalif raymond.  

 

D-line play is hard to diagnose to me.  If a player loses the edge it may be by design, you never really know.

For what it's worth in relation to the above, he and the DL (specifically anyone who isn't Hughes) got the most flack - honestly need to watch myself to see, but from Tuesday most of what's said here seems to line up:

Quote

An early-season trend has become an outright disappointment for the Bills. Opposing offenses have found someone to pick on in nickel cornerback Taron Johnson, the Bills’ fourth-round pick in 2018. In man-to-man coverage, which the Bills play sometimes when blitzing, he is a liability. He hesitates at the beginning of the route, immediately loses ground and doesn’t have the pure athleticism to catch up to the receiver before the ball gets delivered. He also tends to grab when he feels like the opponent has beaten him and has gotten away with some penalties this season. Even in contested catch situations, Johnson doesn’t break up passes nearly often enough. Johnson’s vulnerabilities in coverage, along with the poor play of Josh Norman, led to many easy opportunities for Tannehill to get the ball out of his hand quickly. The pass rush deserves a lot of the blame, but the secondary was also part of the problem.

 

And Johnson has not improved as the Bills hoped he would. The Bills have seen slot receivers routinely win their routes against him, and he remains one of the biggest reasons why the Bills’ defense hasn’t been able to get off the field quickly enough. The Bills must do something to salvage their struggling secondary. They should consider one of two options. First, see if Cam Lewis can provide better coverage at nickel. That’s where Lewis fits best in their defense and they’ve liked the progress he’s made. If not that, the Bills should consider trading for a nickel cornerback. The position usually doesn’t command a high cost due to its value.

The player who stands out above the rest is Desmond King of the Los Angeles Chargers. King is a proven performer and is on the last year of his rookie contract, which would make a trade more palatable for Bills GM Brandon Beane. Even if the answer isn’t Lewis or King, the Bills should take the pressure off Johnson and let him focus on special teams for a bit.

 

Not claiming Joe B to be the definitive voice on this of course, but seems relevant to these ongoing discussions. It's clear the defense has some issues this year, I think far more variables affected them Tuesday than prior, but everyone notices it including the coaches. The difference is we don't have near the collective knowledge or inside info they do, and it seems the majority of us here think we know better. Lorax isn't some Edmunds sympathizer - he understands that our defense does not actually have an MLB and Edmunds and Milano very much have similar roles. He isn't going to outright criticize him either, but what he is saying isn't baseless - a lot of the criticisms that focus on this aspect are however.

 

I do agree with the criticisms in coverage playcalls, and hiding coverages - but I have to wonder how much of the playcall coverages are due to the personnel we have left to play. Without Milano and White Tuesday (again have to check) we ran a lot of the same base coverage to relieve our replacements, and our DL yet again did nothing to help us outside of Jerry. I'm more interested to see how they play the Chiefs this week if healthy, and more so the Pats in three weeks. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by ctk232

[appoo]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Then consider that without DTs who can win 1v1 offenses are immediately getting a guard or tackle into second level on Edmunds

That was the center who got to Edmunds in this play, and that's just something Edmunds has to win in this defense (I mean he's faster so that's a match up you like if you're McDermot/Frazier), but they're not going to be happy with Quenton Jefferson for the reason you point out. He took the path of least resistance, in such a manner that it gave him no shot at getting to the RB, but also easily freed up the RG to ALMOST reach Edmunds in the 2nd level as well. He needs to go under the guard, take the hit, rather then slide in behind, and basically out of the play.