Seahawks trade for Jamal Adams

[stuvian]

Seattle is all in on winning now. 2 first rounders is steep

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

No one is struggling with that, but you are, as usual, pretending to miss the point.  I documented all of Adams's public whining chronologically to ask you why, if Gase was the problem all along, forcing him to seek a trade, did he mention Gase last in his list of grievances and not first?

 

Players are far more likely to complain about things on social media (see their recent wailing about NFL upcoming preparedness for camp...while their union were finishing up the details of the agreement they just voted for!).  Yet we have heard no one else pop off about how horrible Gase is--even anonymously.  And as I showed you---even ADAMS couldn't pinpoint Gase as the real problem until a month into his "get me out of here campaign".  A month!

 

Obviously he pivoted to Gase this late because his other efforts in his public campaign had failed. So he finally unwrapped "oh, and our HC sucks, man".

 

Yet.....a month ago, when Gase was asked about his relationship with Adams, he said this:

 

“My relationship with Jamal has been good since the time I’ve gotten here. We had a lot of discussions throughout the season trying to figure out ways to win. To me, we’ve always gotten along well. There’s been a lot of dialogue between us, especially about on- and off-the-field type topics.”

 

 

 

And did Adams, already making some noise on social media about his displeasure with not being signed to a new deal, dispute Gase's assessment?  Did he even comment on it? 

 

No, he did not.  Why is that?  Obviously because his beef was not with Gase or his coaching style at that time.  

 

This was the issue, doc: 

 

According to Adams, he was told by general manager Joe Douglas that they would discuss his contract in the offseason. As months went by and the team began to sign more rookies, Adams said the conversation turned.

 

 

“If they would have just simply said, ‘You know what, Jamal, we’re not going to look to pay you this year, we want to keep adding players' – I would have respected that more,” he said. “I would say, ‘You know what? I respect it. As a man, I get it. I understand it’s a business.’ But for them to tell me that they’re going to pay me and then not send over a proposal after they said that’s what they were going to, that’s where we go wrong. And then for you to ignore me, that’s why I have a problem.”

 

 

But no, you're right.  Adams woke up a few days ago, weeks into this and suddenly it dawned on him that Gase is the reason for his displeasure.  It is overwhelmingly obvious that, had the Jets gave him the deal he wanted (or at least did some sort of negotiation), he would still be a Jet and we would hear NOTHING about how bad his HC is.

 

You know this has nothing to do with Gase, and every player on that team knows this as well, so they are not going to say anything either way.

 

But yeah doc, despite all evidence to the contrary, this was all about how bad a coach Gase is.  

 

Solid.

 

Obviously contract has something to do with it as he'd have been willing to play for a bad HC and a team going nowhere if they make it worth his while.  But again it's not like he's saying anything everyone else (including Jets players) doesn't already know about Gase, and he could have gone about it without slamming Gase.  He could have, say, slammed Douglas, who refused to give him the new deal.  Which again makes the decision to hire Gase the mistake that we all knew it would be from the beginning.  This isn't hard.

 

Again all I care is he's off the Jets.  And it worked for him because he's in a much better situation now. 

 

 

[NoSaint]

11 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This is the exact point!!

 

Put it a different way to bring it around to the Bills. I think most of us would agree that an offensive tackle is the biggest need on the Bills right now. Maybe some people would say TE. If the Bills could trade 2 1sts right now for George Kittle should they do it? Ronnie Stanley? Lane Johnson? It just isn’t a position that we are accustomed to being in so we overrate draft picks. If your super bowl window is open, and you have a chance to get a superstar to plug your biggest need, you don‘t worry about draft picks in the 20’s.

hopefully even in the 30s

 

which is also why it takes 2 in many cases. This isn’t Jacksonville trading a probable top ten

[T master]

Well looks as if they have found their replacement for Richard Sherman (in all aspects) hasn't even finished his rookie contract and already made enough noise to get traded .

[Kwai San]

Wow to be the Jests.....2 first rounders!  Wonder how they will manage to screw the pooch with those picks.......actually in 4 -5 years with all the first rounders they will be picking they are gonna have a Salary Cap nightmare....  

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, T master said:

Well looks as if they have found their replacement for Richard Sherman (in all aspects) hasn't even finished his rookie contract and already made enough noise to get traded .

Guys often get traded on their rookie contracts. The teams deal them BEFORE having to make the financial commitment. If they’ve already paid them they carry a bunch of dead money as well. This is very common.

6 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

hopefully even in the 30s

 

which is also why it takes 2 in many cases. This isn’t Jacksonville trading a probable top ten

If you use 27 as the example (where Seattle picked this year) the value of all of the picks combined is the 8th pick.

[Mr. WEO]

15 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

No one said you’re paying your CB like your QB. You are paying him as a better version of Darius Slay, Byron Jones and Xavier Howard. Those are the 3 highest paid CBs and 2 of them signed this year. If you’re Tre’s agent do you think it’s reasonable to take less than Byron Jones? Put them side-by-side and it’s not all that close. That’s the way that it works in the NFL. You get paid based on comparable players at your position and the timing of your deal. Tre will certainly not take less than $17m a year.

The Honey Badger certainly elevates KC from “really good team” to Super Bowl champ. Their entire defense was better once they added him. 

 

 

They also added Frank Clark, Okafur, Damian Wilson.   Made ward a starter and the  and rookie Thornhill had 3 ints.

 

Honey Badger was a great pickup, but there were a bunch of new players that made that Defense better.  

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, Kwai San said:

Wow to be the Jests.....2 first rounders!  Wonder how they will manage to screw the pooch with those picks.......actually in 4 -5 years with all the first rounders they will be picking they are gonna have a Salary Cap nightmare....  

 

some of you are real silly with these salary cap concerns. 

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Guys often get traded on their rookie contracts. The teams deal them BEFORE having to make the financial commitment. If they’ve already paid them they carry a bunch of dead money as well. This is very common.

If you use 27 as the example (where Seattle picked this year) the value of all of the picks combined is the 8th pick.

Exactly. A pair of top ten picks is a huge gap from what’s likely dealt here. But we naturally jump to if it’d be a good deal in the lens of our last 20 years. I wouldn’t trade an 8 and 11 for him but a 27 and 30 is much more palatable. 

[Mr. WEO]

9 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Obviously contract has something to do with it as he'd have been willing to play for a bad HC and a team going nowhere if they make it worth his while.  But again it's not like he's saying anything everyone else (including Jets players) doesn't already know about Gase, and he could have gone about it without slamming Gase.  He could have, say, slammed Douglas, who refused to give him the new deal.  Which again makes the decision to hire Gase the mistake that we all knew it would be from the beginning.  This isn't hard.

 

Again all I care is he's off the Jets.  And it worked for him because he's in a much better situation now. 

 

 

 

He did slam Douglas (above).  

 

See?   This wasn't about Gase being a very bad coach at all.  You always come around, doc.

[T master]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Guys often get traded on their rookie contracts. The teams deal them BEFORE having to make the financial commitment. If they’ve already paid them they carry a bunch of dead money as well. This is very common.

 

Or in this case they look into their crystal ball and see that given the amount that he opens his mouth that he could be a malcontent to others around him until he is given what he wants to shut him up so when given a out they jump on it because his skill set doesn't out perform his mouth.

  

 

[Doc]

19 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

If you use 27 as the example (where Seattle picked this year) the value of all of the picks combined is the 8th pick.

 

Not quite.  A pick in later year's is worth a round later.  For example, if the Jets try to trade Seattle's 2021 pick which, for this example, is at 27th (680 points), and packaged it with the Seahawks' 2022 1st rounder, which we'll also consider to be 27, that pick is worth 310 points, not 680.  Which puts it at 15th overall.  And that doesn't take into account that these are starting off as next year's (and the year after's) picks, which could put them even lower.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Doc

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, stuvian said:

Seattle is all in on winning now. 2 first rounders is steep

Two first rounders is steep, but I think we (and Jets fans) have a warped view of first rounders.  
 

When you’re typically drafting in the top half of the draft with some top ten picks mixed in, you start thinking of first rounders as franchise changers....

 

When you get to the late first round, you start getting into the pool of starter level players that are around 45-60 deep.  
 

Brandon Aiyuk went Pick 25 this last year.  Good player, but I don’t think we should be worried if the Jets take a Brandon Aiyuk type WR next year with Seattle’s draft pick.  
 

Nevermind the fact they don’t have Jamal Adams anymore, and that secondary may now be one of the worst in the NFL, as the cost of getting those two late 1sts. 
 

Still, I like the move for them, but it also need to be put in some perspective. 

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

some of you are real silly with these salary cap concerns. 

Exactly. A pair of top ten picks is a huge gap from what’s likely dealt here. But we naturally jump to if it’d be a good deal in the lens of our last 20 years. I wouldn’t trade an 8 and 11 for him but a 27 and 30 is much more palatable. 

 

 

I think combining the 2  1st round picks into a #8 equivalent may be beside the point.  They are getting 2 extra first round players out of the trade. Even "late" round picks have value over later rounds.  

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

He did slam Douglas (above).  

 

See?   This wasn't about Gase being a very bad coach at all.  You always come around, doc.

 

Nowhere did I say this was all about Gase.  You made that up.  But if that's all you got, go with it.  I stick by my assertion that hiring Gase was a mistake because he's a bad HC and that the 2 late first rounders won't help them as much as Adams did.

[Kirby Jackson]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

They also added Frank Clark, Okafur, Damian Wilson.   Made ward a starter and the  and rookie Thornhill had 3 ints.

 

Honey Badger was a great pickup, but there were a bunch of new players that made that Defense better.  

Certainly but he is the leader of that group. He’s as important to them for his leadership as his player. He’s the most important defensive player on that team.
 

They had Ford prior to Clark. they had pass rush. Alex Okafor is a decent role player. He only played 1/2 of the year. Thornhill certainly was a surprise. The point being the defense went from below average to good and Mathieu’s presence is the biggest reason why. There have already been rumblings if extending him after just a year there.

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

Certainly but he is the leader of that group. He’s as important to them for his leadership as his player. He’s the most important defensive player on that team.
 

They had Ford prior to Clark. they had pass rush. Alex Okafor is a decent role player. He only played 1/2 of the year. Thornhill certainly was a surprise. The point being the defense went from below average to good and Mathieu’s presence is the biggest reason why. There have already been rumblings if extending him after just a year there.

 

 

He's a leader for sure--great pickup..  But they made moves that also improved that D.  

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, T master said:

 

Or in this case they look into their crystal ball and see that given the amount that he opens his mouth that he could be a malcontent to others around him until he is given what he wants to shut him up so when given a out they jump on it because his skill set doesn't out perform his mouth.

  

 

...and from Seattle’s perspective, “we were 11-5 last year and have a chance to get a top 5 defensive player in all of football at a position If need.” It’s a win-win

[Coach Tuesday]

Again, he is just average against the pass.  He will help them defend the Niners’ running game but will struggle against passing teams like the Rams.  And it’s a passing league.  Maybe Schneider and Carroll are going all in for one more run this year or next (and maybe the prediction that Russell Wilson gets traded in a year or two comes to pass).

[Kirby Jackson]

34 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Not quite.  A pick in later year's is worth a round later.  For example, if the Jets try to trade Seattle's 2021 pick which, for this example, is at 27th (680 points), and packaged it with the Seahawks' 2022 1st rounder, which we'll also consider to be 27, that pick is worth 310 points, not 680.  Which puts it at 15th overall.  And that doesn't take into account that these are starting off and next year's (and the year after's) picks.

Fair enough, I used 680 in this case because they aren’t being forced to wait they are doubling up. Usually you value the following year down a round because you are making the decision to wait on the asset (ie this year’s 2nd for next year’s first). In this case the Jets are getting both.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[Chicken Boo]

17 hours ago, SCBills said:

Surprised at the haul sent back for Adams.. Not because of his talent, dude is a fantastic chess piece on defense, but 2-1sts for a Safety... yeesh. 
 

Glad to see him out of the division, but if the Jets GM can draft, that’s a great return. 

 

I agree, but from Seattle's perspective, they're expecting to be picking very late in the 1st round and Adams might be the final piece for that defense.  

 

If they somehow manage to re-sign Clowney, look out!

[Mr. WEO]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Nowhere did I say this was all about Gase.  You made that up.  But if that's all you got, go with it.  I stick by my assertion that hiring Gase was a mistake because he's a bad HC and that the 2 late first rounders won't help them as much as Adams did.

 

Start a thread about that then.

 

 

"Nowhere"?  You said "they had to trade him...because they hired Gase".   Sure sounds like you are saying this is all about Gase right there--in fact you are saying that it was inevitable, because of Gase.

 

Now you say it's not just because they hired Gase, and that Adams would certainly play for Gase if he got his new contract (which confirms it was not about Gase at all).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Fair enough, I used 680 in this case because they aren’t being forced to wait they are doubling up. Usually you value the following year down a round because you are making the decision to wait on the asset (is this year’s 2nd for next year’s first). In this case the Jets are getting both.

 

I like at it like this: if the Jets had traded Adams prior to the 2020 draft and traded all the picks they got for trading him at once, the value would be 310+136+49-39.5=455.5, which is the 45th overall pick.

[NoSaint]

25 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I think combining the 2  1st round picks into a #8 equivalent may be beside the point.  They are getting 2 extra first round players out of the trade. Even "late" round picks have value over later rounds.  

They do. But in comparing hundred, twenty and ten dollar bills (or loose change) it’s worth noting these are maybe more like 20s or 50s when a lot of folks are thinking 100s

Edited July 26, 2020 by NoSaint

[JerseyBills]

Hate to say it . Jets made out very well

[Kirby Jackson]

7 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

They do. But in comparing hundred, twenty and ten dollar bills (or loose change) it’s worth noting these are maybe more like 20s or 50s when a lot of folks are thinking 100s

I think that the expectation of late 1st round picks are “quality starter” types. You can hit on a guy like Tre but could also end up with Penny. The likely scenario at the back of the 1st round are core type of starters (especially on a team lacking talent like the Jets). The Jets probably get a couple of starters with those picks but it’s unlikely they get a player the caliber of Adams. 

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, NoSaint said:

They do. But in comparing hundred, twenty and ten dollar bills (or loose change) it’s worth noting these are maybe more like 20s or 50s

 

If the best player on your team is a Safety and you need more talent then you trade your defender for assets (picks).  

 

Raiders did this with Mack (who is far more valuable to any D than any Safety) and I think it was a smart move for a new coach looking to remake the roster.  The Bears got nowhere with that trade--9th in points allowed in '17, 4th last year and now settling in as an 8-8 team with no offense.  

 

The Jets won't be much worse without Adams as far as wins/losses.  Their fortunes are riding Dalton, not on an Adams-led D that was 16th in points given up last year.

[Doc]

23 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Start a thread about that then.

 

 

"Nowhere"?  You said "they had to trade him...because they hired Gase".   Sure sounds like you are saying this is all about Gase right there--in fact you are saying that it was inevitable, because of Gase.

 

Now you say it's not just because they hired Gase, and that Adams would certainly play for Gase if he got his new contract (which confirms it was not about Gase at all).

 

Like I said, nowhere did I say this was "all" because of Gase.  Situations rarely deteriotrate over just one thing.  Do I need to mention every reason why he had to be traded?  If it will make it easier for you and prevent your incessant posts, I will.

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Doc said:

 

Like I said, nowhere did I say this was "all" because of Gase.  Situations rarely deteriotrate over just one thing.  Do I need to mention every reason why he had to be traded?  If it will make it easier for you and prevent your incessant posts, I will.

 

 

"they had to trade him...because they hired Gase"

 

You listed no other "things"...no other reasons,  even after I questioned your claim.  Now that I have posted Adam's and Gase's own comments disproving that....you say that's not what you really meant.

 

Of course!

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

I recall when the Bills drafted Willis McGahee, comment was made by some writer(s) that using a 1st round pick on a guy that won't play for a year mean Greg Williams will be gone as their record won't improve much so he'll be fired and it did happen.

 

See a similar thing here, these 1st round picks they just got will be a big help for the Jets next HC. In this case a little different as Gase maybe wanted him gone or at the least helped create a very bad situation with the team so he's part to blame.

[BillsFan4]

17 hours ago, NewEra said:

Glad he’s out of the division.  
 

Mad that the jets got such a great haul for a safety.  

This about sums up how I feel. Though Let’s see what they do with the picks before we start worrying about it. Joe Douglas might end up being a great GM or he might end up being just another crappy Jets GM in a long line of crappy Jets GMs... ?

[McBean]

The Jets hit a grand slam with this one.

 

Wow.

[Doc]

23 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Gase blows. But he’s a goner at seasons end if he even makes it that far. I’d bet a whole lot of money on that.... so the draft picks have nothing to do with Gase.

 

Yup.  The countdown started when they hired him.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

4 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

The Seahawks are usually pretty intelligent. I’m surprised they were the team that made this mistake.

 

Maybe they are trying to get back to the LOB? But that defense was stacked all over. Not just at safety. And the best player in the secondary was probably Sherman. They don't have anyone on Sherman's level. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

The Jets got a good deal, but it’s funny how many people think this will be good for the Jets. They aren’t going anywhere with Gase in charge. The guy isn’t a leader, and he alienates everyone. Additionally, I’m not even convinced about the QB guru stuff with this guy. 

Isn't it good for the Jets by definition if it is a good deal for them?

 

I'm with you on Gase but non of that really matters in just grading the trade.

[mykidsdad]

That is too much compensation for a safety. Wow. The Jets really fell into something good for a change. But the good news is they're still the Jets, and they'll waste these picks, too. If the Pat's just got two first round picks for a safety I'd be worried, but the Jets not so much. 

[Locomark]

This is a win for the Jets long term and further pushes the Pats down to the cellar in the next 2 years. This draft capital makes this look like it could be a very tough division in a few years. We better go get some divisions NOW while the getting is easier. 

[DCofNC]

Damn, that’s outstanding for the Jets.  I’d make that deal without him yapping.

[Thurman#1]

20 hours ago, patzen said:

The Jets grossly mismanaged Adams but they really did get about as much as you possibly could get in return for him. They got worse in the short term but should be better long term for it.

 

 

Yeah, they did really well to get that much. The 2021 draft picks may be a bit devalued, but the higher the pick the better you can ferret out guys who you think you've seen enough of.

Nice deal by the Jets.

[HappyDays]

People still overrate draft picks. If you had 2 picks in the late 1st round and one of them turned into Jamal Adams you would be thrilled. The Seahawks traded a guess for a sure thing. That is what you do when you're a contender. It's the same reason the Bills traded for Diggs. The Jets now have no building blocks in their secondary and they have to hit on both picks as starters for the trade to be worth it. Great players > draft picks, every time.

[Thurman#1]

20 hours ago, patzen said:

The Jets grossly mismanaged Adams but they really did get about as much as you possibly could get in return for him. They got worse in the short term but should be better long term for it.

 

 

Yeah, they did really well to get that much. The 2021 draft picks may be a bit devalued, but the higher the pick the better you can ferret out guys who you think you've seen enough of.

Nice deal by the Jets.

20 hours ago, patzen said:

The Jets grossly mismanaged Adams but they really did get about as much as you possibly could get in return for him. They got worse in the short term but should be better long term for it.

 

 

Yeah, they did really well to get that much. The 2021 draft picks may be a bit devalued, but the higher the pick the better you can ferret out guys who you think you've seen enough of.

Nice deal by the Jets.