Rams stadium needs 500 mill more .. hopefully portends well for our situation..

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

11 hours ago, Happy said:

 

Really they should be content with moving back to SD.  Hopefully there is enough of that bridge left that they can cross back over.

South Dakota?  Under the cover of night, ala the Baltimore Colts?  ?

[papazoid]

the whole concept of cost over runs being normal is strange.

 

imagine you get a quote do re-do a bathroom for $10,000 then later on, are told it will now cost $20,000

 

it's crazy....there is no incentive to get the bid right the first time around

[Back2Buff]

Humility should come with this pandemic and the NFL better act accordingly.  Sports can be gone tomorrow and there is no need for these expensive stadiums.  It's a stadium, not a hospital.

 

The good thing that could come out of this for the Bills is that if they are giving 900 million to LA to pay back in 30 years, you have to offer that to the Bills.  I'm not sure of the interest rate, but if they are using prime, its essentially zero % interest right now.  You could probably build a sufficient enough stadium in Buffalo for 1 billion.  Paying back 30 million a year is very doable.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

Why? In a nutshell, a palace stadium creates more revenue you don’t have to share.

The problem is that although a palace stadium will theoretically create more revenue it doesn't necessarily mean that the increased revenue is enough to make the exorbitant bond payments to pay for the glitzy palace. You can't fault people for not factoring in their costs the decline of revenue from an unexpected once in a century health cataclysm. The new reality is that the current and subsequent post virus repercussions have changed the economic landscape not only in the sports business but also in many different businesses. The belief that there was always going to be an exponential growth in revenues from the business of the NFL seemed reasonable less than six months ago. That premise no longer holds.   

[Mr. WEO]

16 hours ago, boater said:

Whether this "portends well" is debatable. But it is certainly meaningful in one way or another.

 

Buffalo is susceptible to price overruns on major construction (why would be a discussion for PPP).

 

But you know costs overruns must be clearly on the mind of major players (Pegula's, Poloncarz, Cuomo) when they are looking at all the alternatives.

 

 

I see no connection.  This was an insanely ambitious project unlike anything else ever.  Even Vegas is coming at under 2 billion finished.  LA isn't simply cost overruns, it's poor planning.

 

Anyway, there's zero tax money for a new Bills stadium, no matter what it would cost or not cost. If it wasn't clear before the pandemic, it is now. 

[MarkyMannn]

16 hours ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

We have schools and public services to fund.

 

Stadium is going to take a far back seat to C19 and its after effects

 

Schools funding?  I know a number of school people and not a single one got laid off after classes stopped.  All collected full pay.  They were not affected.  

 

Any one want to chime in with estimates of local, school, county and state tax increases for next year.  Start with around 20%

[Happy]

3 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

South Dakota?  Under the cover of night, ala the Baltimore Colts?  ?

San Diego, where they came from.  They're going back at some point, so why put off the inevitable.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

10 minutes ago, Happy said:

San Diego, where they came from.  They're going back at some point, so why put off the inevitable.

Understood.  I was stretching the limits of believability with my inane suggestion.  ?

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

The problem is that although a palace stadium will theoretically create more revenue it doesn't necessarily mean that the increased revenue is enough to make the exorbitant bond payments to pay for the glitzy palace. You can't fault people for not factoring in their costs the decline of revenue from an unexpected once in a century health cataclysm. The new reality is that the current and subsequent post virus repercussions have changed the economic landscape not only in the sports business but also in many different businesses. The belief that there was always going to be an exponential growth in revenues from the business of the NFL seemed reasonable less than six months ago. That premise no longer holds.   

 

In a way this is great for the Bills. As much as I would have liked a new downtown dome, staying at NewEra makes the most financial sense. The Bills are profitable thanks to a lack of debt service. My only concern are the upper decks. Will they remain standing. Ever feel them move when everyone is jumping up and down? 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

In a way this is great for the Bills. As much as I would have liked a new downtown dome, staying at NewEra makes the most financial sense. The Bills are profitable thanks to a lack of debt service. My only concern are the upper decks. Will they remain standing. Ever feel them move when everyone is jumping up and down? 

There is no doubt that the business climate because of the public health crisis has dramatically changed the situation. But that doesn't change the reality that this very aged stadium is crumbling. The issue is do you invest money in rehabbing the current stadium or do you build a new stadium that is more spartan than some of the newer facilities. If the cost of repeated renovations is comparable or more than the cost of a newer facility does it make sense to put money into a losing proposition?  My sense is that out of necessity the decision is going to be delayed because of the fiscal environment. But that doesn't mean that it can be avoided. 

[4_kidd_4]

1 hour ago, MarkyMannn said:

 

Schools funding?  I know a number of school people and not a single one got laid off after classes stopped.  All collected full pay.  They were not affected.  

 

Yeah bc the 2019-20 budget was already set. And also, hooray for unions!

 

It’s the 2020-21 budget that could be in trouble.

[YoloinOhio]

18 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

The Chargers aren't paying anything?

No. Well, they need to give kroenke the money from their PSL sales. But there is no amount they are required to sell as part of the deal. 

16 hours ago, Happy said:

 

Really they should be content with moving back to SD.  Hopefully there is enough of that bridge left that they can cross back over.

They are locked into the LA stadium lease until 2040

Edited May 15, 2020 by YoloinOhio

[YoloinOhio]

53 minutes ago, Happy said:

San Diego, where they came from.  They're going back at some point, so why put off the inevitable.

Not anytime in the next 20 years 

[Happy]

34 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Not anytime in the next 20 years 

 

Wow, this is a terrible deal.  I'll bet both sides are going to regret this.

[YoloinOhio]

3 minutes ago, Happy said:

 

Wow, this is a terrible deal.  I'll bet both sides are going to regret this.

The chargers also have two additional 10 year options after 2040 that they control - so it’s a 20-40 year lease agreement for them which they pay $1/year. The nfl strong armed kroenke into the deal and btw kroenke and spanos hate each other 

Edited May 15, 2020 by YoloinOhio

[K-9]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

The problem is that although a palace stadium will theoretically create more revenue it doesn't necessarily mean that the increased revenue is enough to make the exorbitant bond payments to pay for the glitzy palace. You can't fault people for not factoring in their costs the decline of revenue from an unexpected once in a century health cataclysm. The new reality is that the current and subsequent post virus repercussions have changed the economic landscape not only in the sports business but also in many different businesses. The belief that there was always going to be an exponential growth in revenues from the business of the NFL seemed reasonable less than six months ago. That premise no longer holds.   

That certainly answers the “why not” but I was strictly concentrating on the “why.” 
 

It will be interesting to see which and to what degree those revenue generating corporate sponsors at stadiums around the league have been hurt. 

[Don Otreply]

19 hours ago, Seasons1992 said:

Considering NYS is now in a $61B hole, there are two things that will happen with any new stadium:

 

1. Pegula's are paying for it 100%.

2. They retrofit New Era as-is. 

 

There's no way in the next 3-5 years they would consider building a brand new place.

As much as I have my own desire for a down town stadium, with the current economic situation that is unlikely to get better soon. New Era is where the Bills will be playing for the next two decades at minimum. Imo this stadium discussion is officially shelved for the foreseeable future. Unless Terry and Kim foot the total bill. 
 

Go Bills!!!

Edited May 15, 2020 by Don Otreply

[Punching Bag]

46 minutes ago, K-9 said:

That certainly answers the “why not” but I was strictly concentrating on the “why.” 
 

It will be interesting to see which and to what degree those revenue generating corporate sponsors at stadiums around the league have been hurt. 

 

See thread:

 

[CIrvine]

Paging Steve Ballmer.

[sullim4]

22 hours ago, matter2003 said:

How the hell can costs go from $2.2 Billion to $5-6 Billion?  Someone is bilking them...

 

This may not sit well with some on here... but contractors aren't exactly known for their ethics and wonderful customer service.  This is particularly true in massive projects like a stadium - you likely have layers of subcontractors in there that all want to fatten their profit margin and so everybody gets their take.  Flaws get exposed in designs, additional mitigation becomes required to get final approval on permits, etc.  All that costs money and contractors can take advantage of the fact that you really have no choice but to pay them more.

 

It's so hard to find good, ethical contractors.  You have to find people that enjoy what they do and make profits because of the quality of their people and their work -- in today's times this is increasingly difficult to find.

[Mike in Horseheads]

I heard theres a lot of of activity on the east side for a new stadium... Dunkirk Don

[SydneyBillsFan]

On 5/16/2020 at 5:41 AM, sullim4 said:

 

This may not sit well with some on here... but contractors aren't exactly known for their ethics and wonderful customer service.  This is particularly true in massive projects like a stadium - you likely have layers of subcontractors in there that all want to fatten their profit margin and so everybody gets their take.  Flaws get exposed in designs, additional mitigation becomes required to get final approval on permits, etc.  All that costs money and contractors can take advantage of the fact that you really have no choice but to pay them more.

 

It's so hard to find good, ethical contractors.  You have to find people that enjoy what they do and make profits because of the quality of their people and their work -- in today's times this is increasingly difficult to find.

 

As somebody who has worked in construction for over 30 years, I can tell you definitively that this synopsis is far too simplistic. You have not factored in a bunch of issues that regularly contribute to cost blowouts - many of them having little to do with the ethics of contractors or the lack thereof.

 

These include, but are not limited to:

 

- Changes to the scope of work / clients brief

- latent conditions

- rise and fall clauses

- liquidated damages clauses

- incompetent design, engineering or project management

- frustration of contract

- inclement weather

- complex legal arrangements and regulatory requirements 

 

Construction projects and the myriad of contracts associated with them are anything but simple.

Edited May 17, 2020 by SydneyBillsFan

[K-9]

6 hours ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

 

As somebody who has worked in construction for over 30 years, I can tell you definitively that this synopsis is far too simplistic. You have not factored in a bunch of issues that regularly contribute to cost blowouts - many of them having little to do with the ethics of contractors or the lack thereof.

 

These include, but are not limited to:

 

- Changes to the scope of work / clients brief

- latent conditions

- rise and fall clauses

- liquidated damages clauses

- incompetent design, engineering or project management

- frustration of contract

- inclement weather

- complex legal arrangements and regulatory requirements 

 

Construction projects and the myriad of contracts associated with them are anything but simple.

Great point about the weather. In 2017, construction was halted for two months to due the heavy rains and that delay pushed back the opening by an entire year. 

[Cripple Creek]

7 hours ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

 

As somebody who has worked in construction for over 30 years, I can tell you definitively that this synopsis is far too simplistic. You have not factored in a bunch of issues that regularly contribute to cost blowouts - many of them having little to do with the ethics of contractors or the lack thereof.

 

These include, but are not limited to:

 

- Changes to the scope of work / clients brief

- latent conditions

- rise and fall clauses

- liquidated damages clauses

- incompetent design, engineering or project management

- frustration of contract

- inclement weather

- complex legal arrangements and regulatory requirements 

 

Construction projects and the myriad of contracts associated with them are anything but simple.

You have your bases covered.  Good job.

 

Is that covered in GC101 or is it a 200 level course?

Edited May 17, 2020 by Cripple Creek

[Simon Says]

On 5/14/2020 at 4:27 PM, JoPoy88 said:

Lol they’re already several billions over budget. What’s an extra $500mil?

 

how in any way does the Rams’ stadium issues portend ‘well’ for us?

Perhaps someone assumes the Bills can count on a ton of financial help from the NFL. Keep in mind TWO teams will share that stadium,and presumably its cost.

[JoPoy88]

31 minutes ago, Georgie said:

Perhaps someone assumes the Bills can count on a ton of financial help from the NFL. Keep in mind TWO teams will share that stadium,and presumably its cost.

the NFL offers stadium loans to every team, this isn’t exactly news or hidden knowledge.

 

the chargers are lessees of the rams. So sure, they’ll support operating costs once the dump opens, in the form of their rent.

[Locomark]

Either way the Pegula’s can’t kick the can down the road on new stadiums forever. They probably extend the lease for a few years but the league is very demanding on new stadiums and will put pressure to build. Didn’t Jerry Jones build that great stadium for 1.5 billion? There’s is no way we need to spend over 1 billion. We aren’t building the perfect stadium. We won’t be hosting Super Bowls ever. I would guess the wild LA stadium overruns are also due to steel coming from overseas getting jacked up due to the trade wars and all the corona virus impacts to labor costs, delays, time crunches because of the work stoppage, having to restack contractor bids and timelines because the work of one contractor is dependent on others work being completed, etc. 

[SydneyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

You have your bases covered.  Good job.

 

Is that covered in GC101 or is it a 200 level course?

 

Not sure what the US equivalent is, but in Australia I completed both a Building Certificate IV (Trade College) and a Bachelor of Construction Project Management (University).

[sullim4]

13 hours ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

 

As somebody who has worked in construction for over 30 years, I can tell you definitively that this synopsis is far too simplistic. You have not factored in a bunch of issues that regularly contribute to cost blowouts - many of them having little to do with the ethics of contractors or the lack thereof.

 

These include, but are not limited to:

 

- Changes to the scope of work / clients brief

- latent conditions

- rise and fall clauses

- liquidated damages clauses

- incompetent design, engineering or project management

- frustration of contract

- inclement weather

- complex legal arrangements and regulatory requirements 

 

Construction projects and the myriad of contracts associated with them are anything but simple.

 

That's exactly my point.  Stuff like that always happens, and when it does, the client has little or no choice but to pay.  Some less-than-ethical contractors will pitch a lower price, even though they are aware of existing conditions on the site.  They then "discover" them and jack the price up.

 

Clients can't bid out this work because the contractor is already part way through the job.  This is a very common way that contractors bilk their clients for money and why so many people question the ethics of the industry.

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

So glad this team hasn’t caved in to “needing a new stadium”.

 

With all this “new normal” propaganda being put in our face 24/7, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a reduction in fans allowed inside stadiums for the foreseeable future. So much remains unknown going forward, a vaccine certainly is not a given to be developed, nor necessarily be all that effective (I.e. seasonal flu vaccines). 

I’m starting to wonder if the league will eventually move to a pay per view/subscription based model to make up for lost attendance revenue.

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

 

Not sure what the US equivalent is, but in Australia I completed both a Building Certificate IV (Trade College) and a Bachelor of Construction Project Management (University).

Hi Sydney, speaking as an experienced Architect on major public projects I find it hard to believe the LA Stadium would be running into cost issues this late in the construction schedule. They’re either suffering from ‘scope creep’ or these costs have been a source of contention between the contractor team for many months now and are only now reaching a point of impasse.

[SydneyBillsFan]

29 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Hi Sydney, speaking as an experienced Architect on major public projects I find it hard to believe the LA Stadium would be running into cost issues this late in the construction schedule. They’re either suffering from ‘scope creep’ or these costs have been a source of contention between the contractor team for many months now and are only now reaching a point of impasse.

 

Yes, scope creep is definitely the most likely issue and usually is the issue at that stage as you say.

 

But as I noted earlier, it could be a rise and fall issue....eg - one of the contractors submits a price for the supply and installation of 89,000 reclining plastic seats but with a valid supply date to say January 1, 2020. The seats are made in China but due to the Coronavirus there is a supply and distribution issue resulting in a price rise... subsequently, each additional seat now adds $50 to the project cost because a late handover could cost you over a million per day in liquidated damages. Add in a weaker greenback and your budget just blew out by another 5, 10 or 20 million bucks.

 

That is just one of many possibilities.

Edited May 17, 2020 by SydneyBillsFan

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

 

Yes, scope creep is definitely the most likely issue and usually is the issue at that stage as you say.

 

But as I noted earlier, it could be a rise and fall issue....eg - one of the contractors submits a price for the supply and installation of 89,000 reclining plastic seats but with a valid supply date to say January 1, 2020. The seats are made in China but due to the Coronavirus there is a supply and distribution issue... subsequently, each additional seat adds a $50 rise to the project cost.

 

That is just one of many possibilities.

Hard to imagine that the last two months would be responsible $500 million in material escalation. I haven’t seen that type of supply chain problem on any of my public works projects. Labor Costs which nowadays make up closer to two thirds of project costs have remained flat. 

[KD in CA]

On 5/14/2020 at 2:30 PM, scuba guy said:

Didn't the big dig put in mass years ago have a 20 times factor with the excess expenses

 

Of course, that project was the largest heist in human history.

[Mr. WEO]

Why didn’t the almost completed Vegas stadium have such wild overruns?

[SydneyBillsFan]

42 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Hard to imagine that the last two months would be responsible $500 million in material escalation. I haven’t seen that type of supply chain problem on any of my public works projects. Labor Costs which nowadays make up closer to two thirds of project costs have remained flat. 

 

Yeah, half a billion US is a head scratcher when the project is 80-90% complete.

 

Anyhow, it ain't coming out of my back pocket so I won't get too worked up about it. Your average California taxpayer on the other hand (unless this Kronke chap is absorbing the cost solo).

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

 

Yeah, half a billion US is a head scratcher when the project is 80-90% complete.

 

Anyhow, it ain't coming out of my back pocket so I won't get too worked up about it. Your average California taxpayer on the other hand (unless this Kronke chap is absorbing the cost solo).

It’s more likely that the headline doesn’t tell the entire story. The LA Stadium complex involves much more than a football stadium. The main structure shown in the photos also includes a fully separate concert theater venue (the end of the teardrop shape). The campus also includes a couple of large office buildings which I believe will house the NFL offices. So there’s no telling whether the reported cost increases don’t involve the scope expansion I mentioned earlier.

[HOUSE]

 

COWBOYS AT&T STADIUM

 

77

 

Originally estimated at $650 million, the stadium's actual construction cost rose to $1.15 billion,^[21] making it one of the most expensive sports venues ever built. To aid Cowboys owner and general manager, Jerry Jones, in paying the construction costs of the new stadium, Arlington voters approved the increase of the city's sales tax by 0.5%, the hotel occupancy tax by 2%, and car rental tax by 5%. The City of Arlington provided over $325 million (including interest) in bonds as funding,^[21][22] and Jones covered any cost overruns. Also, the NFL provided the Cowboys with an additional $150 million loan, following its policy for facilitating financing for the construction of new stadiums.^[23]

Edited May 18, 2020 by HOUSE

[Cripple Creek]

24 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

77

 

Originally estimated at $650 million, the stadium's actual construction cost rose to $1.15 billion,^[21] making it one of the most expensive sports venues ever built. To aid Cowboys owner and general manager, Jerry Jones, in paying the construction costs of the new stadium, Arlington voters approved the increase of the city's sales tax by 0.5%, the hotel occupancy tax by 2%, and car rental tax by 5%. The City of Arlington provided over $325 million (including interest) in bonds as funding,^[21][22] and Jones covered any cost overruns. Also, the NFL provided the Cowboys with an additional $150 million loan, following its policy for facilitating financing for the construction of new stadiums.^[23]

What’s yer point?

[HOUSE]

20 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

What’s yer point?

The entire stadium was built for 1.15 Billion and the Rams need 500 million just to finish the project.