Saints and Panthers violated draft rules

[stuvian]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/05/02/tommy-stevens-tug-of-war-exposes-nfls-dirty-little-draft-secret/

[FireChans]

Lol, imagine costing your org $100k because you appeared on a podcast.

[StHustle]

I gotta assume they didn't know of this rule. But I'm not sure what's worse...them not knowing about a rule that was just emphasized in a memo LAST WEEK, or, them knowing about the rule but being foolish enough to tell on themselves while bragging about how they stuck it to the Panthers.

[stuvian]

sounds like a rule where the crime is getting caught

[Rochesterfan]

3 minutes ago, StHustle said:

I gotta assume they didn't know of this rule. But I'm not sure what's worse...them not knowing about a rule that was just emphasized in a memo LAST WEEK, or, them knowing about the rule but being foolish enough to tell on themselves while bragging about how they stuck it to the Panthers.

 

oh they all know the rule - just very hard to get caught unless you are stupid enough to blab trying to show how smart you are.

 

[Don Otreply]

The league will throw the book at them, but won’t touch the patsies...

[Needle]

Sean Payton rubs me the wrong way. I hate his smug look and stupid visors.

 

Go ahead Roger......drop the hammer 

[MAJBobby]

So Moral of the story. 
 

Keep doing what ever team does. Just don’t brag about it. 

[Augie]

45 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

The league will throw the book at them, but won’t touch the patsies...

 

The only impact might be if they get another comp pick, I’m guessing.....

[machine gun kelly]

With the sensitivity of the climate with the pandemic and the concerns from the NFL on the economic impact, they will want to keep this low key. Those involved will get a fine and done.  It will probably come down on a weekend to minimize the news cycle.  

[GunnerBill]

What strikes me about this is the kid isn't making the roster anyway. It will be Drew, Jameis and Taysom Hill. So in September if the Panthers like him that much they can just take him off waivers. 

[Buddo]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

What strikes me about this is the kid isn't making the roster anyway. It will be Drew, Jameis and Taysom Hill. So in September if the Panthers like him that much they can just take him off waivers. 

 

I immediately thought that when this stuff became known.

 

The one significant difference being, that it will tie up a roster spot.

 

At this current time, I think anything much in the way of a penalty, will amount to little more than a slap on the wrist.

 

As the Saints drafted the kid, I don't think they are in the frame anyway, it would just be the Panthers, unless the NFL cry shenanigens about how the Saints came by the info.

 

The reality is that even in a 'normal' draft, teams are preparing the ground with agents and possible UDFAs, well before the end of the draft. Numbers will also get mentioned, although whether or not that constitutes a 'deal', is a moot point.

 

Beane talked some about the UDFA 'process' the other day, either on PFT or in his conference call, and alluded to the fact that they might have a couple of offers out there for different guys at the same position, and if one takes the offer, they end up having to pull the other offer, due to only having so much money to spend on UDFAs. (He didn't say this was happening when the draft was still occurring though;) )

 

About the only thing fundamentally 'wrong', would be the timing of how things went down, and the fact it got talked about.

[MJS]

Seems like a dumb rule. What's the point?

 

But if it's a rule and you break it, you deserve to be punished. You deserve to be double punished for it for being stupid enough not to just get caught, but to get caught by bragging about it publicly.

 

And I don't accept the idea that if these two teams broke the rule, all the teams must be doing the same thing. That's a fallacy. It's the same fallacy used by Patriots fans when the Pats got caught cheating. "Everyone cheats and everyone does the same thing as the pats." It's a way of justifying and deescalating bad behavior. People who regularly steal things believe that everyone else is stealing things too. It's how they live with themselves.

[Rochesterfan]

9 minutes ago, Buddo said:

 

I immediately thought that when this stuff became known.

 

The one significant difference being, that it will tie up a roster spot.

 

At this current time, I think anything much in the way of a penalty, will amount to little more than a slap on the wrist.

 

As the Saints drafted the kid, I don't think they are in the frame anyway, it would just be the Panthers, unless the NFL cry shenanigens about how the Saints came by the info.

 

The reality is that even in a 'normal' draft, teams are preparing the ground with agents and possible UDFAs, well before the end of the draft. Numbers will also get mentioned, although whether or not that constitutes a 'deal', is a moot point.

 

Beane talked some about the UDFA 'process' the other day, either on PFT or in his conference call, and alluded to the fact that they might have a couple of offers out there for different guys at the same position, and if one takes the offer, they end up having to pull the other offer, due to only having so much money to spend on UDFAs. (He didn't say this was happening when the draft was still occurring though;) )

 

About the only thing fundamentally 'wrong', would be the timing of how things went down, and the fact it got talked about.

 

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

What strikes me about this is the kid isn't making the roster anyway. It will be Drew, Jameis and Taysom Hill. So in September if the Panthers like him that much they can just take him off waivers. 

 

 

Nope - Sean admitted they and the Panthers were in a bidding war for the player.  Both were offering money compensation- which is against the rules.  The difference is it sounded like the agent and the player preferred Carolina - so the Saints made a trade back into the 7th round to get him and keep him away from the Panthers.

 

The Rule as clearly stated is teams can talk to players/agents before the draft is complete, but they are not allowed to discuss any compensation until the draft is complete.  This has been the case for years - and I am sure it happens all of the time where teams break or at least sidestep the rule - the difference is one coach this time decided to brag about screwing over a division rival and in doing so entrapped both teams.

 

@GunnerBill you summed it up perfectly - I just do not get the Saints obsession on this.  I can not see them keeping 3 QBs and Hill as a gadget guy on the roster.  If they waive him for the practice squad - Carolina can pick him up for nothing and probably at a lower cost as many 7th round picks get paid less than the more coveted UDFAs.

 

This was just stupid and petty on the Saints part and I hope the fine and perhaps loss of a pick was worth it for a guy they did not need.  The Ego is just unreal with Sean.

[MJS]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

What strikes me about this is the kid isn't making the roster anyway. It will be Drew, Jameis and Taysom Hill. So in September if the Panthers like him that much they can just take him off waivers. 

The player had nothing to do with it. It was a pissing contest / power trip. They could cut him tomorrow and still be proud of themselves.

[Rochesterfan]

5 minutes ago, MJS said:

Seems like a dumb rule. What's the point?

 

But if it's a rule and you break it, you deserve to be punished. You deserve to be double punished for it for being stupid enough not to just get caught, but to get caught by bragging about it publicly.

 

And I don't accept the idea that if these two teams broke the rule, all the teams must be doing the same thing. That's a fallacy. It's the same fallacy used by Patriots fans when the Pats got caught cheating. "Everyone cheats and everyone does the same thing as the pats." It's a way of justifying and deescalating bad behavior. People who regularly steal things believe that everyone else is stealing things too. It's how they live with themselves.

 

I get the point - as top UDFAs might get more money than a 7th round pick because of the bidding - you do not want these players pissed they were drafted.  It is also supposed to keep the competitive advantage limited as teams that are still drafting would have to focus on picks giving advantages to teams that are done.

 

I am sure it happens all of the time - even if it is stupid things like you would be a top priority- there by insinuating you would get top money, but to be open about bidding and the Panthers coming to an agreement is just wrong.  I totally agree some teams just assume everyone cheats and justifies their actions and that is the wrong way to do this.  Both teams should get hammered for this - just as they should of hammered the Pats.

[stuvian]

Payton has exposed himself as an arrogant dummy. Starting to see where Bountygate came from

[Doc]

A non-issue. The Panthers shouldn’t have agreed on a free agent contract with the guy before the draft was over, which allowed the Saints to get wind of what was going on and swoop in and take him.

[apuszczalowski]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

 

Nope - Sean admitted they and the Panthers were in a bidding war for the player.  Both were offering money compensation- which is against the rules.  The difference is it sounded like the agent and the player preferred Carolina - so the Saints made a trade back into the 7th round to get him and keep him away from the Panthers.

 

The Rule as clearly stated is teams can talk to players/agents before the draft is complete, but they are not allowed to discuss any compensation until the draft is complete.  This has been the case for years - and I am sure it happens all of the time where teams break or at least sidestep the rule - the difference is one coach this time decided to brag about screwing over a division rival and in doing so entrapped both teams.

 

@GunnerBill you summed it up perfectly - I just do not get the Saints obsession on this.  I can not see them keeping 3 QBs and Hill as a gadget guy on the roster.  If they waive him for the practice squad - Carolina can pick him up for nothing and probably at a lower cost as many 7th round picks get paid less than the more coveted UDFAs.

 

This was just stupid and petty on the Saints part and I hope the fine and perhaps loss of a pick was worth it for a guy they did not need.  The Ego is just unreal with Sean.

Ok, this makes a little more sense as to why the Saints were also punished. I was wondering why they were getting fined for drafting a player the Panthers wanted and were negotiating with. Makes sense that they were both making offers and it sounded like the Saints wanted him and since they were losing the bidding war they decided to get a pick to take him in the 7th instead.

 

It doesn't make sense however why they wanted him so badly to have 4 QBs on the roster. I think they say he is a similar QB to Hill, but it wasn't long after the draft they also took Winston. Either there's a chance that Brees may not make it past Training Camp and retires, they plan on using/keeping Hill on the roster less as a QB and more as a gadget player WR/RB, or they are cocky/Dumb enough to think they can sneak him onto their PS. Or they think that Brees and their staff can turn around Winston during training camp and make him a good trade chip before the season starts......

[Rochesterfan]

46 minutes ago, Doc said:

A non-issue. The Panthers shouldn’t have agreed on a free agent contract with the guy before the draft was over, which allowed the Saints to get wind of what was going on and swoop in and take him.

 

Except it is not a non-issue.  Sean stated that both the Saints and the Panthers were discussing compensation with the agent and a bidding war erupted.  They maxed out compensation and the player and agent both felt Carolina was a better fit.  The Saints were well within their rights to then trade and draft him, but both teams were illegally offering compensation.

 

Both teams should be punished for breaking the rules.  The stupidest part is the Saints already had multiple QBs on the roster and were working out Winston- so why go that far and risk your reputation on an UDFA?  Especially one that now has almost no chance to make your roster.  

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

Except it is not a non-issue.  Sean stated that both the Saints and the Panthers were discussing compensation with the agent and a bidding war erupted.  They maxed out compensation and the player and agent both felt Carolina was a better fit.  The Saints were well within their rights to then trade and draft him, but both teams were illegally offering compensation.

 

Both teams should be punished for breaking the rules.  The stupidest part is the Saints already had multiple QBs on the roster and were working out Winston- so why go that far and risk your reputation on an UDFA?  Especially one that now has almost no chance to make your roster.  

 

The agent is the one who should be taken to task for getting the teams into a bidding war and ultimately he cost his client money because he would have made more as an UDFA than a 7th round pick.  And as the article suggests, and the NFL knows since they sent a memo, this happens all the time and every team is probably involved in doing it.  Payton was just dumb to admit to it and I guess deserves to be fined for stupidity more than anything.

 

[Mr. WEO]

LOL teams scrapping over 7th rounders.  Let them have their fun.

[Punching Bag]

11 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

@GunnerBill you summed it up perfectly - I just do not get the Saints obsession on this.  I can not see them keeping 3 QBs and Hill as a gadget guy on the roster.  If they waive him for the practice squad - Carolina can pick him up for nothing and probably at a lower cost as many 7th round picks get paid less than the more coveted UDFAs.

 

 

It may be the Saints just did not want the Panthers, a NFC South rival, to get him.  Agent may have been using a team too to try to get more money (commission) and reported it when Saints decided to stop and he decided to tattle.  Agents should be punished on this as well.

 

I could see an AFC East front office doing same thing.

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, Limeaid said:

 

It may be the Saints just did not want the Panthers, a NFC South rival, to get him.  Agent may have been using a team too to try to get more money (commission) and reported it when Saints decided to stop and he decided to tattle.  Agents should be punished on this as well.

 

I could see an AFC East front office doing same thing.

Except it was Sean that told the story on a pod cast.  He was being smug about how they screwed the Panthers.  He is the one that stated both the Saints and the Panthers were in a bidding war.  He is the one that stated the agent stopped fielding the Saints calls.  
 

Once they could no longer get the agent to talk more money - the Saints then traded back into the round to screw the Panthers.

 

This is all on Sean trying to show how smart they are and in doing so he admitted they broke the rules.  They should be punished.

[apuszczalowski]

Is there a maximum that a team can give an UDFA in an offer? There isn't one for draft picks so they could always work out a better deal as a draft pick with the Saints then as a UDFA

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, apuszczalowski said:

Is there a maximum that a team can give an UDFA in an offer? There isn't one for draft picks so they could always work out a better deal as a draft pick with the Saints then as a UDFA

 

The draft picks are slotted into a salary that covers 4 years (with a 5th year option for the 1st round.  There is very little flexibility or guaranteed money for the later draft picks.

 

The UDFAs typically get a smaller GTD “signing bonus” offer to come to camp and that comes out of a pool each team has.  Each team has a specified amount of Signing Bonus money for the UDFAs.  The teams do have some options of guaranteeing a larger portion of the UDFAs contract meaning they theoretically could get more upfront as an UDFA than a draft pick - especially if both go to the PS.

 

The UDFA contract is also only 3 years - meaning they can renegotiate after 2 years as an RFA and if they outperformed their contract - they can get their second contract sooner and have more guarantees.

 

Finally as an UDFA - you can choose the best fit for your talent versus being drafted by a team that depth wise is worse.

 

In most cases a draft pick will make more than an UDFA if both make the squad and play about 2 years in the league.  After that talent and timing on contract will decide which makes more money.  Many times the top UDFA will have higher guaranteed money in the initial contract and will make more if both are cut or end up on the PS.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Rochesterfan

[BuffaloBills1998]

On 5/2/2020 at 7:00 PM, Don Otreply said:

The league will throw the book at them, but won’t touch the patsies...

That’s because Robert Kraft has deep pockets and probably gives the big honchos free access into his massage parlor/whorehouses. A disgusting cheating organization with no morales. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by BuffaloBills1998

[Billl]

5 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

It may be the Saints just did not want the Panthers, a NFC South rival, to get him.  Agent may have been using a team too to try to get more money (commission) and reported it when Saints decided to stop and he decided to tattle.  Agents should be punished on this as well.

 

I could see an AFC East front office doing same thing.

What authority does the league have to punish agents?

[djp14150]

This is known..you aren’t supposed to negotiate with UDFAs until the draft I’d done nor can you make arrangements pre draft.

 

in theory a UDFA could get paid more than a player slotted spot in the 6th. So a player could make an arrangement with a team saying if I’m not drafted on day 1 or day 2 I will avoid all calls with teams on day 3 to sign with you after the draft.

 

i don’t see what the saints did thst is illegal.  lol it appears to me is his agent told them they had a deal with Carolina in place. So he traded into 7th to pick him.

 

in this talking there is no direct contract negotiation but in hypotheticals.  All teams do this.  It hard to prove. It’s limein politics you donate to a candidate and then you expect a legislative kick back.

[Don Otreply]

25 minutes ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

That’s because Robert Kraft has deep pockets and probably gives the big honchos free access into his massage parlor/whorehouses. A disgusting cheating organization with no morales. 

Don’t hold back tell us what you really think ?

 

I agree, they cheat at all aspects of life not just sports, it’s an institutional point of pride for the Kraft empire to lie and cheat wherever and whenever they can. We have all witnessed it repeatedly. 

[KD in CA]

On 5/2/2020 at 7:27 PM, MAJBobby said:

So Moral of the story. 
 

Keep doing what ever team does. Just don’t brag about it. 

The first rule of fight club is.....

[Punching Bag]

20 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

The first rule of fight club is.....

 

Kick the other fighter in the balls so he is not able to fight effectively.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I'm sure the Patriots did too, they just have not been caught yet.

[MAJBobby]

19 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I'm sure the Patriots did too, they just have not been caught yet.

they all do it. They just don’t go on a Zoom meeting and talk about it. 

[Matt_In_NH]

There is also no negotiating until the "legal tampering" window in FA.  All the teams stick to that one.

[BarleyNY]

8 hours ago, Billl said:

What authority does the league have to punish agents?

I don’t think any.  The NFLPA could fine them or revoke their license, but I doubt they’re interested in doing that over something like this.  The NFL could fine or take picks away from the teams involved.

[Doc]

Simple solution: extend the number of rounds in the draft.

[Punching Bag]

44 minutes ago, Doc said:

Simple solution: extend the number of rounds in the draft.

 

That is what Beane suggested but doubt NFLPA will support that without compensation (higher % of cut, reducing number of offenses players can be fined with, etc).

[Happy]

7 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Kick the other fighter in the balls so he is not able to fight effectively.

 

[NoSaint]

On 5/3/2020 at 8:17 AM, Rochesterfan said:

 

Except it is not a non-issue.  Sean stated that both the Saints and the Panthers were discussing compensation with the agent and a bidding war erupted.  They maxed out compensation and the player and agent both felt Carolina was a better fit.  The Saints were well within their rights to then trade and draft him, but both teams were illegally offering compensation.

 

Both teams should be punished for breaking the rules.  The stupidest part is the Saints already had multiple QBs on the roster and were working out Winston- so why go that far and risk your reputation on an UDFA?  Especially one that now has almost no chance to make your roster.  

i suspect he makes the roster. If in the taysom roll he can be a special teamer instead of carrying a guy like that, and you develop him elsewhere in the process.