I don’t get the hate that Josh Allen gets around here.

[thebandit27]

10 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

Huh?   Bro..Watkins has nothing on Diggs.   The dude can nearly be considered a bust.   He had one 1k yard season in his whole career, can not stay healthy, and is very inconsistent. 

 

Woods can be considered equal at best to Beasley.  Both great route runners with possession skills.

 

Harvin to Brown is laughable.   Harvin barely had 1k yards receiving in his final 4 years as a pro, and a whopping 200+ as a Bill. 

 

Shady is over the hill and Motor is the younger prime version of him. 

 

Clay?   Lol  A waste of money. 

 

This team is about to field two 1,000+ yard Wrs from the previous year, a slot reciever with nearly 800 yards receiving from the previous year, a 2nd year back with explosive play making abilities who averaged over 5 yards a carry last season, and you are trying to tell me these arent the best weapons on the field in 20 years?   Lol

So you’re going to ignore all of the numbers.

 

Do yourself a favor: compare Diggs to Woods. Then do Smoke to Watkins. Then do Harvin to Woods. Then consider that both Hogan and Goodwin were on that team and compare them to McKenzie and Robert Foster. And I mean actually look at the numbers; don’t just go all “bro dude man” analysis.

 

Then compare Clay’s worst season as a Bill to the production of the entire 2019 Bills TE group.

 

Then compare Shady as a Bill to Devin.

 

Or don’t and continue to just make things upz

 

Either way is cool, but only one of them will result in making statements that make sense.

Edited April 10, 2020 by thebandit27

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

 

15 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

I like Diggs/Smoke/Beasley/Motor, but you’re joking if you say that the current group of skill players is better than Watkins, Woods, Harvin,

Hogan, Shady, Clay, and rookie Karlos.

 

Harvin is probably worse than McKenzie if you count ability to play more than 3 games per season as a skill.  

 

I'd give the nod to Beasley over Hogan.  Clay and Knox both dropped passes.  So lets give it a push.  Rookie Karlos was an upgrade over Gore for sure - Motors fumbling was a bit of a concern too.  Woods is younger and probably better than brown.  I'd give the nod to diggs over watkins simply because in the 2 years under rex with this group together, watkins missed time in both seasons.  

 

Diggs>Watkins

Brown<Woods

Beasley>Hogan,Goodwin

McKenzie>Harvin

 

Prime Shady>Motor

Karlos>Gore/Yeldon

 

It feels so much better than what buffalo trotted out in 2017/2018 - but i suppose its on par with what whaley put together.  Only issue with whaley was the cap.  We lost woods, hogan, gilmore, goodwin... And had built a team around Tyrod, Glenn, Dareus, Clay, and 2 1st Watkins.  That core was and is not enough to do anything in the league.  

[TwistofFate]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

So you’re going to ignore all of the numbers.

 

Do yourself a favor: compare Diggs to Woods. Then do Smoke to Watkins. Then do Harvin to Woods. Then consider that both Hogan and Goodwin were on that team and compare them to McKenzie and Robert Foster.

 

Then compare Clay’s worst season as a Bill to the production of the entire 2019 Bills TE group.

 

Then compare Shady as a Bill to Devin.

 

Or don’t and continue to just make things upz

 

Either way is cool, but only one of them will result in making statements that make sense.

Yea bro, im done. 

 

This roster is being considered by many in the sports world as a Super Bowl talented roster yet you're going to sit here and try to tell me that this is not the best roster this team has had in 20 years it's laughable.

 

Robert Woods is not in Diggs League. Watkins is not in Diggs as League.

 

You can attempt to match this guy with that guy and this guy with that guy all day long the bottom line is the guys who were taking the field for Buffalo this year are proven from last year. We have the most Talent with the most production to ever field a field in the same season in 20 years.

 

I find it humorous that this is even debatable. Buffalo Bills 2020 roster this far is considered a top 10 in the NFL and according to some sites a top-five.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

So you’re going to ignore all of the numbers.

 

Do yourself a favor: compare Diggs to Woods. Then do Smoke to Watkins. Then do Harvin to Woods. Then consider that both Hogan and Goodwin were on that team and compare them to McKenzie and Robert Foster.

 

Then compare Clay’s worst season as a Bill to the production of the entire 2019 Bills TE group.

 

Then compare Shady as a Bill to Devin.

 

Or don’t and continue to just make things upz

 

Either way is cool, but only one of them will result in making statements that make sense.

 

Yea. I would take Diggs over Watkins as the #1. After that Harvin - Beas as #3 might be a tie (I was never a Harvin fan) and after that every single other comparison is advantage 2015 at this point - including the oline too. And to be honest after those two I reference and maybe Wood v Morse it isn't close in any position. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

7 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

So you’re going to ignore all of the numbers.

 

Do yourself a favor: compare Diggs to Woods. Then do Smoke to Watkins. Then do Harvin to Woods. Then consider that both Hogan and Goodwin were on that team and compare them to McKenzie and Robert Foster. And I mean actually look at the numbers; don’t just go all “bro dude man” analysis.

 

Then compare Clay’s worst season as a Bill to the production of the entire 2019 Bills TE group.

 

Then compare Shady as a Bill to Devin.

 

Or don’t and continue to just make things upz

 

Either way is cool, but only one of them will result in making statements that make sense.

 

Harvin probably had like 100 snaps for buffalo in 2 seasons.  Don't compare him to anyone.  He's actually a net loss since he's a locker room nightmare.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

Harvin probably had like 100 snaps for buffalo in 2 seasons.  Don't compare him to anyone.  He's actually a net loss since he's a locker room nightmare.

 

Yea Harvin is a first class arse. 

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

 

Harvin is probably worse than McKenzie if you count ability to play more than 3 games per season as a skill.  

 

I'd give the nod to Beasley over Hogan.  Clay and Knox both dropped passes.  So lets give it a push.  Rookie Karlos was an upgrade over Gore for sure - Motors fumbling was a bit of a concern too.  Woods is younger and probably better than brown.  I'd give the nod to diggs over watkins simply because in the 2 years under rex with this group together, watkins missed time in both seasons.  

 

Diggs>Watkins

Brown<Woods

Beasley>Hogan,Goodwin

McKenzie>Harvin

 

Prime Shady>Motor

Karlos>Gore/Yeldon

 

It feels so much better than what buffalo trotted out in 2017/2018 - but i suppose its on par with what whaley put together.  Only issue with whaley was the cap.  We lost woods, hogan, gilmore, goodwin... And had built a team around Tyrod, Glenn, Dareus, Clay, and 2 1st Watkins.  That core was and is not enough to do anything in the league.  

Just based on performance alone, I’d go:

Woods over Diggs

Watkins = Brown

Harvin over Beasley (assuming both are healthy)

Shady over Devin (again, when Shady was in his prime in 15/16

And Clay as a Bill has more receptions every season than our entire TE group in 2019.

 

After that I can see making an argument. 
 

But yes, I do like the current group. Just some sanity from the dude that proclaimed how much better Allen’s weapons are than anything in the last 20 years would be nice.

3 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

Yea bro, im done. 

 

This roster is being considered by many in the sports world as a Super Bowl talented roster yet you're going to sit here and try to tell me that this is not the best roster this team has had in 20 years it's laughable.

 

Robert Woods is not in Diggs League. Watkins is not in Diggs as League.

 

You can attempt to match this guy with that guy and this guy with that guy all day long the bottom line is the guys who were taking the field for Buffalo this year are proven from last year. We have the most Talent with the most production to ever field a field in the same season in 20 years.

 

I find it humorous that this is even debatable. Buffalo Bills 2020 roster this far is considered a top 10 in the NFL and according to some sites a top-five.

So you’re not going to look at the numbers and stick with “bro dude man” analysis?

 

Yes, we’re done 

[Jauronimo]

On 4/4/2020 at 6:02 AM, BuffaloBills1998 said:

I get it he’s not perfect, but neither was Kemp, or Ferguson or even Kelly for that matter. First it’s finally we have a franchise QB now all of a sudden it’s let’s go get Watson and let Allen go so we don’t have to pay him 30 million. Like some of you guys need to make up your minds. Either your with Allen or your not. Again while Bills mafia is the best fan base in the NFL, we are also the most spoiled. Appreciate what we have and root for the guy to succeed. Things could be worse, we could still have Tyrod( I can’t throw the football) Taylor or Nathan( I cant stop throwing to the other team) Peterman. Or how about EJ Manuel or Kyle Orton or even better Jeff Tuel or Thad Lewis. I can’t imagine if Kelly’s first year in Buffalo happened in today’s game, there would probably be a million threads about running him out of town and demanding that we draft someone else. I understand being critical and even being concerned, but some of you guys need to stop being negative and back off a bit and watch and see how it all unfolds. Be patient as the kids still young and is only going into his third year in the NFL. I don’t see Cleveland or New Jersey fans coming down on their QBS as much as I see here. And in my opinion Allen is way better than Darnold and Mayfield. 

Do you get the hate that Josh Allen gets on facebook?  

[TwistofFate]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Just based on performance alone, I’d go:

Woods over Diggs

Watkins = Brown

Harvin over Beasley (assuming both are healthy)

Shady over Devin (again, when Shady was in his prime in 15/16

And Clay as a Bill has more receptions every season than our entire TE group in 2019.

 

After that I can see making an argument. 
 

But yes, I do like the current group. Just some sanity from the dude that proclaimed how much better Allen’s weapons are than anything in the last 20 years would be nice.

Because you are attempting to cherry-pick players best seasons I am not.

 

I'm talking about what's going to field the Buffalo Bills in 2020 and what those people who are going to take the field did in 2019.

 

Of all the players you mentioned only one of them had a thousand yards season for Buffalo and that was Watkins one time.

 

The conglomerate of talent with a proven track record from the year before is about to take the field together again to build on what they already did last year.

[Hampton Josh fan]

Thank you for the inspirational message. I sense  a pent up animosity towards anyone questioning your superior talent evaluation skills. Especially after 2 years featuring a playoff berth, dismissing a high 1st round draft choice as not being able to win a championship. Finally, I made the assumption, (ignorantly)that your assessment about JA17 was out of the defeatist attitude that you might have developed over the last 20 years of watching incompetence dominate the organization Please, if I insulted you, my apologies. Happy holidays. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

Just based on performance alone, I’d go:

Woods over Diggs

Watkins = Brown

Harvin over Beasley (assuming both are healthy)

Shady over Devin (again, when Shady was in his prime in 15/16

And Clay as a Bill has more receptions every season than our entire TE group in 2019.

 

After that I can see making an argument. 
 

But yes, I do like the current group. Just some sanity from the dude that proclaimed how much better Allen’s weapons are than anything in the last 20 years would be nice.

So you’re not going to look at the numbers and stick with “bro dude man” analysis?

 

Yes, we’re done 

 

Harvin over Beasley?? The guy was healthy for like A year in 2011 - he's not better than anyone when he's costing 6 million to get 25 catches.  He cost a million in 2017 and played in what... one game?  

 

I can't say at his best harvin because we didn't get him at his best.  We got him after he flamed out everywhere with migraines, weed, and attitude problems.  AND paid him 6 mil.  

[TwistofFate]

Just now, dneveu said:

 

Harvin over Beasley?? The guy was healthy for like A year in 2011 - he's not better than anyone when he's costing 6 million to get 25 catches.  He cost a million in 2017 and played in what... one game?  

 

I can't say at his best harvin because we didn't get him at his best.  We got him after he flamed out everywhere with migraines, weed, and attitude problems.  AND paid him 6 mil.  

Oh don't worry about it they'll just cherry-pick his one best season ever and say oh he's better than Beasley he had a thousand yards.

[Rico]

9 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

Because you are attempting to cherry-pick players best seasons I am not.

 

I'm talking about what's going to field the Buffalo Bills in 2020 and what those people who are going to take the field did in 2019.

 

Of all the players you mentioned only one of them had a thousand yards season for Buffalo and that was Watkins one time.

 

The conglomerate of talent with a proven track record from the year before is about to take the field together again to build on what they already did last year.

Yeah, if you're going to compare with what they did in Buffalo, I agree with you 100%. Take Woods for example: he's really blossomed into a very nice player with the Rams, but I was never too impressed with him on the Bills.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, TwistofFate said:

Oh don't worry about it they'll just cherry-pick his one best season ever and say oh he's better than Beasley he had a thousand yards.

 

Right?  If we're getting the 2015-2016 versions of these players - we're getting

 

Migraine Harvin 6 games in 2 seasons - 7 million well spent.

Watkins with foot problems - Is the screw in?  Are they taking it out?  Whats next with this guys friggin foot?! Not to mention complaining in the media about targets...

Woods who falls over all the time, am i the only one who remembers this? (Not the rams woods - we get 2015 woods)

Goodwin whos probably hurt training for the olympics

Shady with hamstring problems

Hell Clay didn't even play a full season here.  

Hogan?  Guys a mediocre slot receiver who could play special teams.

[thebandit27]

28 minutes ago, Rico said:

Yeah, if you're going to compare with what they did in Buffalo, I agree with you 100%. Take Woods for example: he's really blossomed into a very nice player with the Rams, but I was never too impressed with him on the Bills.

Never throwing the ball can do that 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

56 minutes ago, dneveu said:

Diggs>Watkins

Brown<Woods

Beasley>Hogan,Goodwin

McKenzie>Harvin

 

Prime Shady>Motor

Karlos>Gore/Yeldon

 

Watkins is in a perfect spot. He's not a #1 because he doesn't have the talent edge at the NFL level, he's not consistent enough to be a #2, so he is a mismatch #3/#4 in Kansas City (Hardman overtakes him this year) that occasionally comes up big, but is never relied on for real production. 

 

Diggs > Watkins - Agree

Brown < Woods - Agree, Woods is younger and has turned into a stable NFL WR. 

Beasley > Hogan/Goodwin - Agree, Beasley has carved a niche role in the NFL that is defined. Hogan was always a fringe NFL player and Goodwin's peak was short lived, think Jacoby Ford. 

McKenzie > Harvin - Agree, Harvin was a name, but no real production past his Vikings days. 

 

Prime Shady < Motor - We never saw peak McCoy. He was on the decline when Philadelphia traded him. 

Karlos > Gore/Yeldon - The Bills should have never signed Frank Gore. TJ Yeldon was an established running back, who can run and catch the ball out of the backfield. Gore is a 36 year old plodder at 3.5 ypc. But Karlos for one year was a phenom in Buffalo. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Rico]

5 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Never throwing the ball can do that 

No doubt that certainly didn't help him develop. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

Never throwing the ball can do that 

 

You're not wrong - Roman isn't much for passing beyond verticals and safe outs/hitches.  

 

But i seem to remember Woods also being a total JAG when he was here.  I liked him, but he had like 2 good games in 4 years.  

[Rico]

3 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

You're not wrong - Roman isn't much for passing beyond verticals and safe outs/hitches.  

 

But i seem to remember Woods also being a total JAG when he was here.  I liked him, but he had like 2 good games in 4 years.  

My take as well. Very good blocker for a WR, but that's about it. Then again, I was never too impressed with Lil Antoine on the Bills either until he went to the Vikings.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

2 hours ago, MOVALLEYRANDY said:

LOL. New most non-sensical post of the off season. It's not worth discussing with you. Blessings to you !

 

Because you don't have a rebuttal.  You like to question the motives of others, but don't like it when someone questions yours.  Good day to you to Sir.

[billsbackto81]

On 4/4/2020 at 7:02 AM, BuffaloBills1998 said:

I get it he’s not perfect, but neither was Kemp, or Ferguson or even Kelly for that matter. First it’s finally we have a franchise QB now all of a sudden it’s let’s go get Watson and let Allen go so we don’t have to pay him 30 million. Like some of you guys need to make up your minds. Either your with Allen or your not. Again while Bills mafia is the best fan base in the NFL, we are also the most spoiled. Appreciate what we have and root for the guy to succeed. Things could be worse, we could still have Tyrod( I can’t throw the football) Taylor or Nathan( I cant stop throwing to the other team) Peterman. Or how about EJ Manuel or Kyle Orton or even better Jeff Tuel or Thad Lewis. I can’t imagine if Kelly’s first year in Buffalo happened in today’s game, there would probably be a million threads about running him out of town and demanding that we draft someone else. I understand being critical and even being concerned, but some of you guys need to stop being negative and back off a bit and watch and see how it all unfolds. Be patient as the kids still young and is only going into his third year in the NFL. I don’t see Cleveland or New Jersey fans coming down on their QBS as much as I see here. And in my opinion Allen is way better than Darnold and Mayfield. 

It's not all hate.

 

2020 MVP,  ...  Josh Allen?

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/kyler-murray-the-early-popular-2020-mvp-bet-with-tom-brady-and-a-surprise-quarterback-behind-him/

 

T2. Josh Allen, Buffalo Bills, 50/1 odds, (8 percent of tickets)

This has to be the most surprising name in the top three. Allen threw for 3,089 yards, 20 touchdowns, and nine interceptions as he led the Bills to a 10-6 record and their second playoff berth in the last three years. They did choke in the AFC wild-card game against the Texans, but that's not a fair representation of how Buffalo's season actually went. The Bills had the No. 3 defense in the league last year when it came to yards allowed per game, and they rode that unit all the way to the playoffs. Allen's nine rushing touchdowns didn't hurt Buffalo either. You can say he was more of a game manager in 2019, but with the cannon-like arm Allen has and the mobility he possesses, many figure he will take a big step forward in year three.

Another reason to be high on Allen is that he finally has a true No. 1 wideout for the first time in his career. The Bills made a big trade for former Minnesota Vikings star wideout Stefon Diggs, who has recorded two straight 1,000-yard receiving seasons. Don't sleep on the Bills in 2020. With Tom Brady now in the NFC South, they might be the favorites to win the division. 

Interestingly enough, Allen has also racked up the highest percent of dollars wagered in Vegas so far (22 percent), following by Dak Prescott (25/1 odds, 18 percent) and Murray (20/1 odds, 14 percent). 

[Mango]

11 hours ago, Tim Tindale said:

Reich v Kelly QB controversy:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-01-21-sp-1899-story.html%3f_amp=true

My favorite part of the article:

 

Yet, there was a public clamor for Reich. Two newspapers from nearby Rochester took a telephone poll that revealed a preference for Reich by a vote of 1,267 to 237.

 

There is definitely a “grass is greener” mentality that football fans have around their QB.  That will never change. 

It’s a totally different scenario. Bills were coming off of two super bowl losses. One of which Kelly got cocking and stopped handing off the ball, and Reich was at the helm for the greatest comeback in NFL history. 
 

I wouldn’t treat it as evidence of a pattern or fault a fan base for voting to keep playing the hot hand. 

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

It’s a totally different scenario. Bills were coming off of two super bowl losses. One of which Kelly got cocking and stopped handing off the ball, and Reich was at the helm for the greatest comeback in NFL history. 
 

I wouldn’t treat it as evidence of a pattern or fault a fan base for voting to keep playing the hot hand. 

True.  My point above in discussing that some actually wanted Reich was to point out the irrational feelings Bills fans have had over their QBs since day 1.  From Johnny Greene to Allen's fans have beeyatched about the QB for 60 years.  I wonder how many other franchises do the same.

[longtimebillsfan]

7 hours ago, Rico said:

My take as well. Very good blocker for a WR, but that's about it. Then again, I was never too impressed with Lil Antoine on the Bills either until he went to the Vikings.

Was it that Woods didn't want to be in Buffalo or did we not use him correctly?  I really don't know the answer to that.

[Rico]

5 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Was it that Woods didn't want to be in Buffalo or did we not use him correctly?  I really don't know the answer to that.

To be fair, I have to put an asterisk next to every one of those players who were in Buffalo during the drought, especially the 2nd half of it. Ralph and the rest of his stooges like Brandon, Littman, Whaley, et all were just such stone cold losers that anyone who got sucked into that environment couldn't help but be set up for failure.

[SoTier]

17 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

By the way, did you actually take a look at the numbers of the 3 guys you mentioned in year 2 as I suggested?

 

Numbers don't tell the full story.  The QBs I mentioned, except for Lamar Jackson, all were/are considered top NFL QBs over their careers.  They all had significant accomplishments either personally or team-wise as rookies/sophomores.   While Josh Allen made significant improvement as a sophomore, neither his personal performance nor the team's performance qualify him to join the group I listed.  More than anything else, I think he needs to improve his decision making.   Great QBs consistently make the right decision, especially when the game is on the line.

 

17 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Allen has not proven himself to be a franchise guy at all. 

 

This is his make it or break it season. 

 

There is zero excuses.  Same system for multiple years, he's a veteran, and he has weapons everywhere, more than any Qb has had in Buffalo in 20 years. 

 

Call me skeptical, but I think his accuracy will be his down fall.  I don't think he has the accuracy to be a franchise guy at this level.  He needs to put up this year or buffalo really needs to re-evaluate the Qb position next off-season. 

 

I think that Allen has proven himself to be a competent NFL QB, but he needs to step up significantly in order to be considered a "franchise QB".  I think that Allen's ability to understand and process what he sees quickly and accurately is the real key to his success.

 

16 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

 

Harvin is probably worse than McKenzie if you count ability to play more than 3 games per season as a skill.  

 

I'd give the nod to Beasley over Hogan.  Clay and Knox both dropped passes.  So lets give it a push.  Rookie Karlos was an upgrade over Gore for sure - Motors fumbling was a bit of a concern too.  Woods is younger and probably better than brown.  I'd give the nod to diggs over watkins simply because in the 2 years under rex with this group together, watkins missed time in both seasons.  

 

Diggs>Watkins

Brown<Woods

Beasley>Hogan,Goodwin

McKenzie>Harvin

 

Prime Shady>Motor

Karlos>Gore/Yeldon

 

It feels so much better than what buffalo trotted out in 2017/2018 - but i suppose its on par with what whaley put together.  Only issue with whaley was the cap.  We lost woods, hogan, gilmore, goodwin... And had built a team around Tyrod, Glenn, Dareus, Clay, and 2 1st Watkins.  That core was and is not enough to do anything in the league.  

 

I generally agree with this but it's simply untrue that the Bills "lost" Woods, Hogan, Gilmore, and Goodwin.  "Lost" implies that the Bills were constrained by something -- like the salary cap -- that prevented them from re-signing these players.  The Bills chose to not re-sign these players after their rookie contracts, primarily because not re-signing top DBs, WRs, and RBs and replacing them with cheaper rookie contract players was a Bills policy under Ralph Wilson and Russ Brandon.  It's why the Bills frequently drafted these same positions high in the draft so frequently, and it was a big reason why the Bills simply spun their wheels for almost two decades.

 

13 hours ago, Mango said:

It’s a totally different scenario. Bills were coming off of two super bowl losses. One of which Kelly got cocking and stopped handing off the ball, and Reich was at the helm for the greatest comeback in NFL history. 
 

I wouldn’t treat it as evidence of a pattern or fault a fan base for voting to keep playing the hot hand. 

 

Pushing for the backup QB to replace the starter is a universal response of any fan base to crappy QB play on the part of the starter.   If Bills fans seem more prone to it than other fan bases, it's because the Bills have had pretty crappy QB play for most of their history -- and especially since Jim Kelly retired.

 

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I’ve read the last page of comments.

 

The middle ground is the Bills offense needs to score more points. 
 

You have statements like:

- Bills fans are spoiled

- Bills fans would complain if Allen threw for 299 yards and not 300.

- He was a project QB from the beginning

- What about Eli and Rivers and Brees

 

Those kind of statements are exaggerated/embellished red herrings to the real crux of the problem: the Bills offense, like many Bills teams of years gone by, does not score enough points to really win by NFL standards, and we’ve seen nearly 30 games of Allen.

 

So the realistic point is this: Beane and McDermott chose the skills over production, and they learned from their lack of investment into the skill positions in 2018, so they have continued responsibility to get as much talent on both sides of the ball as possible, and I’ve been satisfied in their roster building in 2019/2020.

 

As for Allen, some Bills fans need to stop comparing Allen against his raw rookie self, and start judging by the current NFL standard. It’s not 2001 (Brees) or 2004 (Rivers, Manning). It’s 2020 and the Bills need more points than 19 a game to break the Playoff win drought. So who cares about those other QBs. 

 

Allen has the height, arm, intelligence and work ethic. He needs to cut down the fumbling which plagued him in the second half of 2019 and make more plays, period. Less three and outs, less dead 3rd Quarters. Too often the Bills offense goes dead in the water for chunks of the game.

 

We need more points. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[C.Biscuit97]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I’ve read the last page of comments.

 

The middle ground is the Bills offense needs to score more points. 
 

You have statements like:

- Bills fans are spoiled

- Bills fans would complain if Allen threw for 299 yards and not 300.

- He was a project QB from the beginning

- What about Eli and Rivers and Brees

 

Those kind of statements are exaggerated/embellished red herrings to the real crux of the problem: the Bills offense, like many Bills teams of years gone by, does not score enough points to really win by NFL standards, and we’ve seen nearly 30 games of Allen.

 

So the realistic point is this: Beane and McDermott chose the skills over production, and they learned from their lack of investment into the skill positions in 2018, so they have continued responsibility to get as much talent on both sides of the ball as possible, and I’ve been satisfied in their roster building in 2019/2020.

 

As for Allen, some Bills fans need to stop comparing Allen against his raw rookie self, and start judging by the current NFL standard. It’s not 2001 (Brees) or 2004 (Rivers, Manning). It’s 2020 and the Bills need more points than 19 a game to break the Playoff win drought. So who cares about those other QBs. 

 

Allen has the height, arm, intelligence and work ethic. He needs to cut down the fumbling which plagued him in the second half of 2019 and make more plays, period. Less three and outs, less dead 3rd Quarters. Too often the Bills offense goes dead in the water for chunks of the game.

 

We need more points. 

Great post.

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I’ve read the last page of comments.

 

The middle ground is the Bills offense needs to score more points. 
 

You have statements like:

- Bills fans are spoiled

- Bills fans would complain if Allen threw for 299 yards and not 300.

- He was a project QB from the beginning

- What about Eli and Rivers and Brees

 

Those kind of statements are exaggerated/embellished red herrings to the real crux of the problem: the Bills offense, like many Bills teams of years gone by, does not score enough points to really win by NFL standards, and we’ve seen nearly 30 games of Allen.

 

So the realistic point is this: Beane and McDermott chose the skills over production, and they learned from their lack of investment into the skill positions in 2018, so they have continued responsibility to get as much talent on both sides of the ball as possible, and I’ve been satisfied in their roster building in 2019/2020.

 

As for Allen, some Bills fans need to stop comparing Allen against his raw rookie self, and start judging by the current NFL standard. It’s not 2001 (Brees) or 2004 (Rivers, Manning). It’s 2020 and the Bills need more points than 19 a game to break the Playoff win drought. So who cares about those other QBs. 

 

Allen has the height, arm, intelligence and work ethic. He needs to cut down the fumbling which plagued him in the second half of 2019 and make more plays, period. Less three and outs, less dead 3rd Quarters. Too often the Bills offense goes dead in the water for chunks of the game.

 

We need more points. 

 

I'll echo CBiscuit ... great post. 

 

It's not "hate" to to compare Allen to the QBs who should be his peers -- the QBs acknowledged to currently be "franchise QBs" -- and find him not on their level yet.  He needs to play significantly better this season if he's going to lay claim to being a "franchise QB" -- and his cheerleaders need to stop making excuses for him if he doesn't.  No Bills fan is wishing failure on Josh Allen. It's just that for some of us, wearing Bills-colored glasses and drinking Kool-Aid isn't part of our fandom, especially  given the teams that the Bills have fielded for most of the past quarter century.

[Billl]

20 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Watkins is in a perfect spot. He's not a #1 because he doesn't have the talent edge at the NFL level, he's not consistent enough to be a #2, so he is a mismatch #3/#4 in Kansas City (Hardman overtakes him this year) that occasionally comes up big, but is never relied on for real production.

Watkins is in a perfect spot, but it’s not for the reasons you say.  He absolutely has a talent edge.  He’s just incapable of staying healthy for a full season.  Andy Reid gave him a light workload in order to keep him healthy for the playoffs when he was really needed.  Healthy Sammy dominated in the postseason because he was able to go 100%.  Kansas City had the luxury of protecting him in the regular season because they have so many other weapons, but he was absolutely a difference maker in the playoffs where the Chiefs gained 16 yards per target (not per catch).  When he’s able to go 100%, he’s absolutely a #1 WR, but that’s a pretty big qualifier that may never materialize over the course of a full season.

[RochesterLifer]

I think SI hits it right on the head. I'm a huge fan of Josh Allen, liking everything I see, both physically and his intangibles. However, the fact is, until he takes control of the game, he hasn't yet taken control of a game. I'm hoping this is his breakthrough year. But it will be difficult for me to forget about that lateral attempt in the playoffs.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/04/10/ranking-ever-team-quarterback-situation

Depth chart: Josh Allen, Matt Barkley, Davis Webb

"Josh Allen grew immensely last year and has the tools to make another leap in Year 3; the question is whether or not it will happen. I think some of the statistics behind Allen’s breakout season are concerning, though an upgraded weapon set and another year of experience for his offensive line may prove me wrong."

[rayray808]

I’m just gonna say it...

 

Haters: Josh Allen keeps progressing and to assume he will plateau or regress has literally no statistical data behind it. You are just transferring past Bills trauma to him, and convincing yourself that we will never have a successful QB.

 

Lovers: Josh Allen has SO MUCH more he needs to do to even enter the MVP conversation and also just be able to score more than 19 a game. Stop picking and choosing stats that make him God while ignoring the ones that make him a Bust. 
 

Play nicely dammit! (In a lockdown COVID19 Dad voice)

[mjd1001]

Here is where I stand with Allen, and what I have said on these forums many times.

 

I like Josh Allen. I think there is a chance he can be a top 5 or 10 qb in the league.  I think he got better from his first season to the second season. I think there is a chance he can be the franchise QB to lead the team to the playoffs multiple times.

While saying that, I think last season he was still a LONG way form a top 5-10 qb in the league. I think there is a chance he won't get much better and the Bills will be looking for a new QB in a few years.  He needs to be better, a pretty good amount better, going forward than he was in the past.

 

When i have said those things in the past on this forum, I have been accused of hating on Allen...that is what I don't get.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

McDermott and Beane have responsibility in this. They have partly moved away from the early mentality of guys like Joe Webb, Mike Tolbert, Chris Ivory, Kaelin Clay, Kelvin Benjamin, Jordan Matthews, Jeremy Kerley.

 

But depending on Frank Gore at the expense of TJ Yeldon was a mistake, giving him 8 carries in the Wild Card game, keeping Yeldon benched, hampered the Bills play making ability. 

 

I’m glad we lost out on Greg Olsen. He would be the coaches pick to start, leaving Dawson Knox’s snaps to dwindle.

Those kind of decisions about personnel and playing time hurt Allen’s ability to lead the offense, make plays and score points. 
 

Less and less in sports is there room for the lunch pail worker who gets by on instincts. You need athletes. 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[DuckyBoys]

Think as long as we dont speak in terms of absolutes than you can be impartial on Josh Allen.  Nobody can say for sure either way. I applaud the Bills for turning a corner and putting the tools in place for a qb to succeed and hopefully it is Josh.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

4 hours ago, Billl said:

Watkins is in a perfect spot, but it’s not for the reasons you say.  He absolutely has a talent edge.  He’s just incapable of staying healthy for a full season.  Andy Reid gave him a light workload in order to keep him healthy for the playoffs when he was really needed.  Healthy Sammy dominated in the postseason because he was able to go 100%.  Kansas City had the luxury of protecting him in the regular season because they have so many other weapons, but he was absolutely a difference maker in the playoffs where the Chiefs gained 16 yards per target (not per catch).  When he’s able to go 100%, he’s absolutely a #1 WR, but that’s a pretty big qualifier that may never materialize over the course of a full season.

But Watkins has played 81% of games since being traded and hasn’t topped 675 yards in any season, and two times hasn’t topped 600 yards despite being in pass friendly offenses.Thats why the Rams gave up on him after a year and KC reworked his deal.

 

We keep waiting for this Sammy explosion and it’s never going to come. He’s a depth player.

[Dr. Who]

18 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said:

Think as long as we dont speak in terms of absolutes than you can be impartial on Josh Allen.  Nobody can say for sure either way. I applaud the Bills for turning a corner and putting the tools in place for a qb to succeed and hopefully it is Josh.

Yep, though impartial is probably asking for a lot on a fan board. How about relatively rational? I am a hopeful optimist with regards to Allen. His rookie year was badly mismanaged. Second year, talent was at least NFL average at o-line and skill positions. TE is still below average, though Knox could make a leap and change that. He has the potential to be very good. O-line needs some maulers. I think you need to add another stud rb to the mix. Still have some worries about Daboll as a playcaller. All this contributes to how Josh Allen will develop as a qb. I'm fine with skeptics so long as they can admit Allen so far has progressed and that his eventual plateau is still unknown. What I object to is the notion that those of us who perceive "haters" on this board are delusional. There are a few and whether they are obvious or more subtle, they already want to move on from Allen because they "know" he is a bad qb.

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Yep, though impartial is probably asking for a lot on a fan board. How about relatively rational? I am a hopeful optimist with regards to Allen. His rookie year was badly mismanaged. Second year, talent was at least NFL average at o-line and skill positions. TE is still below average, though Knox could make a leap and change that. He has the potential to be very good. O-line needs some maulers. I think you need to add another stud rb to the mix. Still have some worries about Daboll as a playcaller. All this contributes to how Josh Allen will develop as a qb. I'm fine with skeptics so long as they can admit Allen so far has progressed and that his eventual plateau is still unknown. What I object to is the notion that those of us who perceive "haters" on this board are delusional. There are a few and whether they are obvious or more subtle, they already want to move on from Allen because they "know" he is a bad qb.

 

Meh. I maybe can think of two haters. No more than that. 

[first_and_ten]

In Jim Kelly's second year his completion percentage was 59.7. Josh Allen's was 58.8 his second year. I see similarities in the leadership column. Jim Kelly had already played two years in the USFL. I think Josh Allen could very well be a franchise quarterback. This year he has to show us the goods.

Edited April 11, 2020 by first_and_ten

[Billl]

11 minutes ago, first_and_ten said:

In Jim Kelly's second year his completion percentage was 59.7. Josh Allen's was 58.8 his second year. I see similarities in the leadership column. Jim Kelly had already played two years in the USFL. I think Josh Allen could very well be a franchise quarterback. This year he has to show us the goods.

In Jim Kelly’s second season, Joe Montana led the league at 61.3%.  Last year, Brees completed 73.4%.