Why I believe Jordan Phillips wasn't retained

[TheBeaneBandit]

1 hour ago, Cal said:

Phillips was a beast. Should of kept him

Nice take.

[MyDogLuvsPB]

7 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 For comparison’s sake, everyone’s favorite whipping boy—Star Lotuleilei—missed 3 tackles in 482 snaps.

 

 

Go  back and watch a few games there buddy. 

 

Star was overpaid and brought here to stop the run!  He cannot do this---if ever.  Double teams are one thing but I can assure you that he can't beat 1 on 1's consistently.  I have Game Pass and know what I'm talking about. 

[Cruiserplayer]

JP 6-7 mill ? 8-9 meh; 10+ ? 

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, Virgil said:

From my understanding, he was offered 8 mil and took 10 elsewhere.  We were willing to bring him back at our price, and were fine if he wanted more elsewhere. 
 

I don’t think there was more to it than that 

 

 

 

Yeah, it seemed like a money thing to me.

 

A good player with some weaknesses. I didn't see evidence of a free-lancing problem, but some problems with run defense.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Thurman#1

[MyDogLuvsPB]

4 hours ago, Dopey said:

Star didn’t beat his man men enough to get enough tackle opportunities to miss.

 

Even though this is a Jordan Phillips thread, I thought I'd fix that for you.

Spot on!!!

 

To the OP:  Jordan had only 1 very good year and he wanted the moon for it!  Forget that. 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, MyDogLuvsPB said:

Spot on!!!

 

To the OP:  Jordan had only 1 very good year and he wanted the moon for it!  Forget that. 

I don't think I ever complained that he wasn't re signed

 

The point was that he is a product of McDermott and also freelanced too much

[Thurman#1]

9 minutes ago, MyDogLuvsPB said:

Go  back and watch a few games there buddy. 

 

Star was overpaid and brought here to stop the run!  He cannot do this---if ever.  Double teams are one thing but I can assure you that he can't beat 1 on 1's consistently.  I have Game Pass and know what I'm talking about. 

 

 

Watching games has nothing to do with it, and anyone - you or anyone - assuring us he can't beat 1 on 1s consistently is talking nonsense.

 

I have Game Pass too. And I don't doubt that you know what you're talking about a huge majority of the time, but Star does his job against 1 on 1s with extreme regularity and against double-teams very consistently. He eats blocks and frees LBs. No, he's not wildly athletic and no he isn't as good at getting off blocks as some but he is a very very good space eater. That is what he does to stop the run, he eats blocks and by doing so frees other guys to run to the ball. That's why he's still here and will be for his third year and very possibly his fourth as well. McDermott likes him.

[thebandit27]

5 hours ago, MyDogLuvsPB said:

Go  back and watch a few games there buddy. 

 

Star was overpaid and brought here to stop the run!  He cannot do this---if ever.  Double teams are one thing but I can assure you that he can't beat 1 on 1's consistently.  I have Game Pass and know what I'm talking about. 

Oh, you have game pass? Wow! I’m definitely impressed!

 

See me over here, I just shoot from the hip and don’t really watch at all. 
 

Maybe it’d be worth re-reading the post for context instead of getting indignant and spouting nonsense?

 

Or not. Either way is fine.

[maryland-bills-fan]

10 hours ago, stuvian said:

I presume Phillips leaving will net us a compensatory pick. The fact that we were able to coach him up to what was likely his best year as a pro speaks volumes about how well Beane and McDermott compliment each other. To get compensation for a player who before getting here was marginal is to create value from next to nothing. I'm sure Phillips worked hard for his new contract and I wish him well. I also have no doubt that Beane and McDermott know that he was the beneficiary of his teammates play rather than the sole reason for his increased sack numbers. 

Probably not.  We pick up too many veteran free agents to win in the comp pick game.

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Watching games has nothing to do with it, and anyone - you or anyone - assuring us he can't beat 1 on 1s consistently is talking nonsense.

 

I have Game Pass too. And I don't doubt that you know what you're talking about a huge majority of the time, but Star does his job against 1 on 1s with extreme regularity and against double-teams very consistently. He eats blocks and frees LBs. No, he's not wildly athletic and no he isn't as good at getting off blocks as some but he is a very very good space eater. That is what he does to stop the run, he eats blocks and by doing so frees other guys to run to the ball. That's why he's still here and will be for his third year and very possibly his fourth as well. McDermott likes him.

 

I know this is a Phillips thread but I think this is an exaggeration of Star's play. I think he is a decent space eater. He is above average. I don't think he is among the best nose tackles in the league.

[Rochesterfan]

10 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Don't overthink it.  They drafted Oliver the year before.  They were not going to invest that much for a back-up.  Like others have said, Phillips and Lawson were a by-product of the secondary providing great coverage.  It was pretty rare to see clean 1:1 wins by the DL that affected the QB early in the play.  Both hustled and played to the whistle which earned them their money.  They will be fine without Lawson and Williams.  I would have kept Lawson and cut Murphy but once McD and Beane make up their mind they rarely change it - see Peterman, Gore, KB, Sammy, and Dareus. 

Biggest weakness last yer was lack of pass rush and it hasn't gotten any better.  RT is probably better even if Ford doesn't get better.  That leaves back-up RB and P as the other libilities.  I'd be fine if the first two picks were OLB.  Better yet I'd move Edmunds to OLB as I'm still not convinced he is the answer at MLB.  

 

I agree with you first part, but I just do not get the bolder at all. 
I don’t get it - they moved on from all of those guys with little investment.  Gore was a 1 year deal to help get Singletary ready and help him get through the year.  That worked.  KB - they recognized the issue - did not extend his contract - even though many talked about what that extension would look like.  Then when he showed it couldn’t do it - they cut him.  Sammy and Dareus showed they were me first players and Sammy has since admitted that many times - they tried to make changes and moved on as soon as they could.  
 

McDermott and Beane tend to bring in a lot of guys, but they have done a good job of recognizing pay versus results versus value and moved on.

 

I understand you thought on Shaq versus Murphy, but Shaq was much better from the other side with Hughes as a player - so it really would not have made sense to sign him to a bigger contract than Murphy, plus absorb Murphy’s dead money, plus still need another DE, and finally get less out of Shaq on the wrong side.  
 

 

[CBennett]

Here was my thoughts on why he was let go......$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I know this is a Phillips thread but I think this is an exaggeration of Star's play. I think he is a decent space eater. He is above average. I don't think he is among the best nose tackles in the league.

Agree. He’s good at taking up space, and occasionally makes a play.

 

Not a Snax Harrison type, which is how he was paid, but it is what it is.

[Paup 1995MVP]

Phillips' enthusiasm was certainly contagious.  I loved his passion and energy.  But for a big man he was not stout against the run.  He got pushed back quite a bit.  (see Eagles, 1st Miami game, 2nd NE game)  He had a good season from a sack perspective.  But the Bills brass obviously did not see him as a $10 mill type of player.  Good player to have on your team.  But everyone doesn't get the big bucks.  Panthers did not keep Butler and Addison.  And the Seahawks did not keep Jefferson.  GM's always are looking for that right mix of guys combining salary skill set and team culture.  Fascinating when you think about how you try to build a championship team.  I think Beane gets it pretty darn well.

[Dablitzkrieg]

15 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Yes Phillips is a talented player. At his size, with his athleticism he is a freak and he ended up in the right spot in Buffalo

 

And McDermott put him in the best spot to succeed because he's a great defensive coach

 

What Phillips wasn't great at was playing his 1-11. Which is the most important part of McDermott's defense

 

All 11 players doing their job to make the defense successful. While Phillips certainly bought into the culture and team he still liked to free-lance

 

He didn't like to take 2 gaps when asked and would rather shoot the game hurting our run defense at times. In a front 4 scheme where gap integrity is key, Phillips lacked that detail

 

Yes a talented player but McDermott will get that out of guys who play his way 100% of the time , not 75%

 

So, how did you calculate 75%

[chris heff]

14 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

They weren't impressed.  Could run his mouth but couldn't stop the run.

I kind of liked the mouth running part, but he couldn’t stop the run. That could well be a result of him free lancing. 

[ganesh]

16 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

I don’t know this for a fact, but I can surmise from their offseason that they felt missed tackles were a problem in 2019.

 

Phillips missed 11 tackles last year; that’s an absurd amount for a guy that played 543 snaps. For comparison’s sake, everyone’s favorite whipping boy—Star Lotuleilei—missed 3 tackles in 482 snaps.

 

The guy that will most likely replace Jordan, Vernon Butler, missed only 2 tackles in 440 snaps in 2019.

And in a game decided by a TD or less, those missed tackles could be the difference between a win and a loss.

[billsfan89]

I think they viewed Phillips as a prime third rotational DT. He was a liability in the rush defense but he was a dam fine disrupter and good pass rusher up the middle. I think the they thought of him more as a high end rotational player and valued him at their price (Which was reported to be 8 million aav) and they got outbid on the open market. They then basically took that 8 million and gave it to Jefferson who in my opinion is a better more complete and versatile player. So I think it worked out better for everyone, the Bills spent the money they were willing to spend on Phillips on a better player while Phillips got paid by a team that needed him badly. 

 

Overall it was more of less just name your price and they stuck to what they thought was reasonable. 

[bbb]

I have to admit, one of my biggest character flaws in life is that I have no gap integrity 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

7 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I agree with you first part, but I just do not get the bolder at all. 
I don’t get it - they moved on from all of those guys with little investment.  Gore was a 1 year deal to help get Singletary ready and help him get through the year.  That worked.  KB - they recognized the issue - did not extend his contract - even though many talked about what that extension would look like.  Then when he showed it couldn’t do it - they cut him.  Sammy and Dareus showed they were me first players and Sammy has since admitted that many times - they tried to make changes and moved on as soon as they could.  
 

McDermott and Beane tend to bring in a lot of guys, but they have done a good job of recognizing pay versus results versus value and moved on.

 

I understand you thought on Shaq versus Murphy, but Shaq was much better from the other side with Hughes as a player - so it really would not have made sense to sign him to a bigger contract than Murphy, plus absorb Murphy’s dead money, plus still need another DE, and finally get less out of Shaq on the wrong side.  
 

 

I hated the PED Murphy contract from day 1. And I think Beane screwed up not using the 5th year guarantee.  Lawson has outplayed Murphy and if I had to choose between the two I cut Murphy and try to bring Lawson back. But Lawson was never coming back was my guess. I was not articulate in my post. I think the guys Beane signed will be able to replace Lawson and Phillips reasonably well. 

[C.Biscuit97]

I’m guessing money was the major reason but what do I know. 

23 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

I hated the PED Murphy contract from day 1. And I think Beane screwed up not using the 5th year guarantee.  Lawson has outplayed Murphy and if I had to choose between the two I cut Murphy and try to bring Lawson back. But Lawson was never coming back was my guess. I was not articulate in my post. I think the guys Beane signed will be able to replace Lawson and Phillips reasonably well. 

I can’t fully hate on not extending Shaq because he really hadn’t prove anything.  But I don’t care. Murphy sucks.  I wish we could have never signed him and kept Shaq, an ascending player.  Oh well.  Besides Star and Murphy, I can’t question their defensive acquisitions.

[Rochesterfan]

12 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

I hated the PED Murphy contract from day 1. And I think Beane screwed up not using the 5th year guarantee.  Lawson has outplayed Murphy and if I had to choose between the two I cut Murphy and try to bring Lawson back. But Lawson was never coming back was my guess. I was not articulate in my post. I think the guys Beane signed will be able to replace Lawson and Phillips reasonably well. 

 

I get that you hate Murphy, but I do not understand the Lawson versus Shaq.  First the 5th year option would have been 10 million plus for Shaq - a good size overpay for just the one year - plus that would have set his baseline meaning if they wanted to sign him further - you are looking at 12+ million going forward.  The Bills saw him as about an 6/8 million dollar max guy before last year - so the 5th year option was already an overpay.

 

2nd - Shaq produced next to nothing when platooning with Murphy because he was not as good on the left side of the line.  He was not quick enough to beat the RT and lacked strength and leverage to hold up.  He was significantly better platooning with Hughes the last 2 years on the Right side - he did not get pressure against LTs, but strength wise - he seemed to hold up better.  Based on what they did - Shaq and Murphy where not really equal the last 2 years - they essentially played different positions with very different responsibilities and if you replaced Murphy with Shaq - I think it would be a pretty big downgrade.

 

I like what they brought in as replacements and like the price tags even more.  I think in the short term they are just as good for less money and hungrier players.  Shaq to me is a good role player and edge contain, but provides nothing in pass rush.  Phillips provided a nice push a few times a game, but was never consistent enough or stout enough even with his size and both guys had 2nd tier price tags from the Bills.  I won’t say Murphy is any better because he has flaws to, but I would not get rid of him unless you have an improvement.  Right now there is no improvement - so Murphy should be here until they see where everything shakes out.

[djp14150]

22 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

I don’t know this for a fact, but I can surmise from their offseason that they felt missed tackles were a problem in 2019.

 

Phillips missed 11 tackles last year; that’s an absurd amount for a guy that played 543 snaps. For comparison’s sake, everyone’s favorite whipping boy—Star Lotuleilei—missed 3 tackles in 482 snaps.

 

The guy that will most likely replace Jordan, Vernon Butler, missed only 2 tackles in 440 snaps in 2019.

 

 

I do not like those stats unless you factor in other stats.  It’s like errors in baseball. You got to a ball 95% of the rest  of the league wouldn’t have gotten to yet you get an error.

 

what is actually defined as a missed tackle...you being in the wrong place vs assignment?  You just getting one arm on him vs two?

[Ethan in Cleveland]

40 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I get that you hate Murphy, but I do not understand the Lawson versus Shaq.  First the 5th year option would have been 10 million plus for Shaq - a good size overpay for just the one year - plus that would have set his baseline meaning if they wanted to sign him further - you are looking at 12+ million going forward.  The Bills saw him as about an 6/8 million dollar max guy before last year - so the 5th year option was already an overpay.

 

2nd - Shaq produced next to nothing when platooning with Murphy because he was not as good on the left side of the line.  He was not quick enough to beat the RT and lacked strength and leverage to hold up.  He was significantly better platooning with Hughes the last 2 years on the Right side - he did not get pressure against LTs, but strength wise - he seemed to hold up better.  Based on what they did - Shaq and Murphy where not really equal the last 2 years - they essentially played different positions with very different responsibilities and if you replaced Murphy with Shaq - I think it would be a pretty big downgrade.

 

I like what they brought in as replacements and like the price tags even more.  I think in the short term they are just as good for less money and hungrier players.  Shaq to me is a good role player and edge contain, but provides nothing in pass rush.  Phillips provided a nice push a few times a game, but was never consistent enough or stout enough even with his size and both guys had 2nd tier price tags from the Bills.  I won’t say Murphy is any better because he has flaws to, but I would not get rid of him unless you have an improvement.  Right now there is no improvement - so Murphy should be here until they see where everything shakes out.

I only disagree with your assessment of Lawson on the right vs the left. I think he outplayed Murphy and by year's end Lawson was starting opposite Hughes.

The fifth year option and the tags are not about the money. It is about controlling the situation and not losing a bunch of guys and retooling through the draft. They had enough cap space to overspend last year and this year. Also flying in the face of what Beane says about drafting well and retiring your own guys. But its water under the bridge. Beane rolled the dice and he found replacements that in some cases may be upgraded for Lawson, Phillips, and Zo.  Kudos to him. 

Now I would argue they still need two edge players in this draft. They are old on the edges.

[Lurker]

This take from Sports Illustrated had me rolling on the floor.    It just goes to show how few national guys pay attention to the Bills...

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/03/28/nfl-draft-team-needs-all-32-teams

 

"...GM Brandon Beane and head coach Sean McDermott can shift their focus to their defense, which last season played like the single best-coached unit in football. That unit, however, lost arguably its best defensive lineman (certainly best interior lineman, at least) when free agent defensive tackle Jordan Phillips signed with Arizona."  

[Buffalo Barbarian]

On 3/29/2020 at 5:21 PM, Azucho98 said:

ED OLIVER.  Its as simple as that.

 

then they wouldn't have signed Vernon Butler.

 

 

[FireChans]

14 hours ago, Lurker said:

This take from Sports Illustrated had me rolling on the floor.    It just goes to show how few national guys pay attention to the Bills...

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/03/28/nfl-draft-team-needs-all-32-teams

 

"...GM Brandon Beane and head coach Sean McDermott can shift their focus to their defense, which last season played like the single best-coached unit in football. That unit, however, lost arguably its best defensive lineman (certainly best interior lineman, at least) when free agent defensive tackle Jordan Phillips signed with Arizona."  

I mean, hard to debate with “arguably best defensive lineman.” You could argue Oliver was better but not more productive. 

 

Phillips was #1 in sacks, 2nd in QB hits, tied for first in TFL, and #1 in solo tackles on our DL last year. I was encouraged by Oliver’s play last year, but JP stuffed the stat sheet last year. There’s a reason he went from a prove it deal to $10M AAV.

[The Firebaugh Kid]

He and Shaq were mocking the Cowboys after the game too. Have to wonder if stuff like that didnt sit well with mgmt. 

[Lurker]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

I mean, hard to debate with “arguably best defensive lineman.” You could argue Oliver was better but not more productive. 

 

Phillips was #1 in sacks, 2nd in QB hits, tied for first in TFL, and #1 in solo tackles on our DL last year. I was encouraged by Oliver’s play last year, but JP stuffed the stat sheet last year. There’s a reason he went from a prove it deal to $10M AAV.

 

He was nowhere near the most productive or "best" DL last year.    Anybody who says so should make a cash offer for the Brooklyn Bridge, ASAP.

 

IMO, Phillips is like so many free agents who underwhelm after getting big contracts.   Stats alone don't tell the story, but time after time, supposed "football people" get locked in on them and think they tell you who the player is...  

[FireChans]

42 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

He was nowhere near the most productive or "best" DL last year.    Anybody who says so should make a cash offer for the Brooklyn Bridge, ASAP.

 

IMO, Phillips is like so many free agents who underwhelm after getting big contracts.   Stats alone don't tell the story, but time after time, supposed "football people" get locked in on them and think they tell you who the player is...  

How was he not the most productive? 

 

I guess you think McBeane are also shopping for Bridges seeing as they offered $8M AAV for an future “underwhelming” player.

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

How was he not the most productive? 

 

I guess you think McBeane are also shopping for Bridges seeing as they offered $8M AAV for an future “underwhelming” player.

[thebandit27]

55 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

He and Shaq were mocking the Cowboys after the game too. Have to wonder if stuff like that didnt sit well with mgmt. 

 

Nah. Jordan Poyer is among the biggest sassers in the game when the Bills win. He waves goodbye to fans and will often taunt the opposing sideline. And he just got a new contract.

[Don Otreply]

19 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

I hated the PED Murphy contract from day 1. And I think Beane screwed up not using the 5th year guarantee.  Lawson has outplayed Murphy and if I had to choose between the two I cut Murphy and try to bring Lawson back. But Lawson was never coming back was my guess. I was not articulate in my post. I think the guys Beane signed will be able to replace Lawson and Phillips reasonably well. 

I see your view, but the Ped thing makes me chuckle, being their use is rampant throughout the league. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[FireChans]

54 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Nice response. Back in your hole you go.

[The Firebaugh Kid]

4 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Nah. Jordan Poyer is among the biggest sassers in the game when the Bills win. He waves goodbye to fans and will often taunt the opposing sideline. And he just got a new contract.

Right on. Quarantine has my brain doing weird stuff bro. 

[GoBills808]

5 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

He was nowhere near the most productive or "best" DL last year.    Anybody who says so should make a cash offer for the Brooklyn Bridge, ASAP.

 

IMO, Phillips is like so many free agents who underwhelm after getting big contracts.   Stats alone don't tell the story, but time after time, supposed "football people" get locked in on them and think they tell you who the player is...  

Exactly correct. He was arguably one of the least productive members of the DL due to both his physical limitations and willingness to buy into the scheme.

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Exactly correct. He was arguably one of the least productive members of the DL due to both his physical limitations and willingness to buy into the scheme.

Why did McBeane offer him $8M a season then?

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Why did McBeane offer him $8M a season then?

Because that's what they value that spot at DT

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Because that's what they value that spot at DT

Yeah but I mean this dude didn’t buy in, had bad gap integrity and was the least productive guy on the DL. How’d he get offered the same money as Shaq? Why offer him any money at all?

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Yeah but I mean this dude didn’t buy in, had bad gap integrity and was the least productive guy on the DL. How’d he get offered the same money as Shaq? Why offer him any money at all?

It was pretty apparent they were going to let him sign elsewhere without matching but you don't just not make an offer to a guy coming off a productive year for your team, that's a bad look