Josh Allen’s drop vs Mahomes

[billvernsays]

Josh Allen likes to set pretty shallow in the pocket where Mahomes likes to sit extremely deep. Given Josh Allen’s athletic ability and his arm strength it would make sense for him to take a deeper drop to allow his feet to help him if he needs it. 

[MJS]

Just now, billvernsays said:

Josh Allen likes to set pretty shallow in the pocket where Mahomes likes to sit extremely deep. Given Josh Allen’s athletic ability and his arm strength it would make sense for him to take a deeper drop to allow his feet to help him if he needs it. 

Aren't drops predefined by the play call? 3 step vs 5 step, etc.?

[billvernsays]

I’m sure it is. So I’m saying get rid of all the 3 step drops because Allen rarely gets the ball out on time. I’m saying shouldn’t we start trying to play to his strengths?

Edited February 4, 2020 by billvernsays

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Dawkins and Ford can't hold their blocks up in a 7 step drop.   As MJS said, the play defines the drop.  The NFL has evolved to reads that are  mainly pre-snap, and often limited to a single portion of the field.   So many throws that are predetermined based on play design.  Add shotgun and pistol formations and the length of the drop is less and less important that making the correct read pre-snap

Best thing Daboll can do is more play action, fix the screen game, allow Knox to develop and get better at RT (either Ford plays better which I think is what will happen or upgrade and move Ford to LG)

[machine gun kelly]

Ford at guard is a good idea, but where as Spain and Feliciano are solid.  If healthy, I like Nseke at RT.  The problem is he doesn’t stay healthy.  If we take a tackle maybe not high in the draft, that would make sense.

[298Woody]

We need another RT free agent, rookies take too long and the OL is critical to success.

 

[Chaos]

5 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Dawkins and Ford can't hold their blocks up in a 7 step drop.   As MJS said, the play defines the drop.  The NFL has evolved to reads that are  mainly pre-snap, and often limited to a single portion of the field.   So many throws that are predetermined based on play design.  Add shotgun and pistol formations and the length of the drop is less and less important that making the correct read pre-snap

Best thing Daboll can do is more play action, fix the screen game, allow Knox to develop and get better at RT (either Ford plays better which I think is what will happen or upgrade and move Ford to LG)

Bold part needs to be fixed.

[mjt328]

I've thought the same thing when watching Patrick Mahomes, and wondered if it could work for our offense.

His distance from the line of scrimmage often gives him 10-15 yards of space before the pass rush can get close to him, and gives the receivers more time to get deep.

 

Josh Allen is one of the few players (besides Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers, etc.) with enough arm strength to make this work.  

 

To the person that said our O-Line can't hold on a 7-step drop.... watch how Kansas City executes these plays.  Mahomes doesn't do this from under center.  He takes very deep shotgun snaps, then continues moving backwards or laterally as the play happens, instead of stepping up into the pocket.  The O-Line isn't forced to hold blocks longer than on normal pass plays.  

[H2o]

7 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Dawkins and Ford can't hold their blocks up in a 7 step drop.   As MJS said, the play defines the drop.  The NFL has evolved to reads that are  mainly pre-snap, and often limited to a single portion of the field.   So many throws that are predetermined based on play design.  Add shotgun and pistol formations and the length of the drop is less and less important that making the correct read pre-snap

Best thing Daboll can do is more play action, fix the screen game, allow Knox to develop and get better at RT (either Ford plays better which I think is what will happen or upgrade and move Ford to LG)

This ^^^

 

If we had tackles that weren't as susceptible to speed rushers then Allen would be able to take a deeper drop. As it stands right now Daboll seemingly calls pass plays that take into account the offense's deficiencies as a whole. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by H2o

[Zerovoltz]

Mahomes doesn't prefer to drop that far back.  he can....but he's at his best....like most QB, when he has a pocket or can step up in the pocket instead of backward.  You see Mahomes fade back often, because KC has pure garbage for G-C-G. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, billvernsays said:

Josh Allen likes to set pretty shallow in the pocket where Mahomes likes to sit extremely deep. Given Josh Allen’s athletic ability and his arm strength it would make sense for him to take a deeper drop to allow his feet to help him if he needs it. 

 

The QB's drop isn't just a matter of where he "likes to set", it's a matter of play design and route timing.

 

Also it doesn't necessarily help the protections if the QB drops deeper.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

Mahomes doesn't prefer to drop that far back.  he can....but he's at his best....like most QB, when he has a pocket or can step up in the pocket instead of backward.  You see Mahomes fade back often, because KC has pure garbage for G-C-G. 

 

Sounds like baloney to me - a QB doesn't have as much time as Mahomes normally does in the pocket (or a pocket at all) if the center of his line is "pure garbage".

 

KC let Morse walk in FA 'cuz they thought Reiter could do the job at least as well - you sayin' their player personnel e v a l is garbage or something?

 

I see Mahomes with a nice pocket and plenty of time most games.

 

8 hours ago, MJS said:

Aren't drops predefined by the play call? 3 step vs 5 step, etc.?

 

Yes

[Zerovoltz]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The QB's drop isn't just a matter of where he "likes to set", it's a matter of play design and route timing.

 

Also it doesn't necessarily help the protections if the QB drops deeper.

 

 

 

Sounds like baloney to me - a QB doesn't have as much time as Mahomes normally does in the pocket (or a pocket at all) if the center of his line is "pure garbage".

 

KC let Morse walk in FA 'cuz they thought Reiter could do the job at least as well - you sayin' their player personnel e v a l is garbage or something?

 

I see Mahomes with a nice pocket and plenty of time most games.

 

 

Yes

 

Without posting "all 22" footage of multiple plays, I'll have a hard time proving it....and that did get better once Stefan Wisneiski took over at LG this year.. You can live with him if your Guards are good.  Most of the year both G were bad and even after LG was shored up, RG the DR. wasn't good. 

 

Mahomes legs are good enough to negate a lot of that...but it's been an issue all year......

 

I tried to attach some videos demonstrating my point, but they are too large.....so here is a link to an article on "the athletic" that explains it well.  Not sure your a subscriber, ufortnuately is a paywall.

 

https://theathletic.com/1432331/2019/12/04/chiefs-film-review-whats-wrong-with-o-line-plus-mahomes-happy-feet-solid-secondary-more/?redirected=1

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

The magic of Mahomes is his feet can being doing anything While he is still delivering accurate passes.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

Without posting "all 22" footage of multiple plays, I'll have a hard time proving it....and that did get better once Stefan Wisneiski took over at LG this year.. You can live with him if your Guards are good.  Most of the year both G were bad and even after LG was shored up, RG the DR. wasn't good. 

 

Mahomes legs are good enough to negate a lot of that...but it's been an issue all year......

 

I tried to attach some videos demonstrating my point, but they are too large.....so here is a link to an article on "the athletic" that explains it well.  Not sure your a subscriber, ufortnuately is a paywall.

 

https://theathletic.com/1432331/2019/12/04/chiefs-film-review-whats-wrong-with-o-line-plus-mahomes-happy-feet-solid-secondary-more/?redirected=1

 

Sorry, but when your team has just won the Superbowl against one of the best DLs in football and you come on another team's board to whinge about how "total garbage" the center of your team's OL is, that's just pathetic.

 

The 49ers gave up the fewest passing yards in the league this year for a reason, and it wasn't because their secondary is truly elite or they blitz a lot - only 20.9%, yet they're 5th in the league in sacks and 2nd in pressures.  Hmmmmm.

 

The Chiefs gave Mahomes the 3rd longest pocket time (time between snap and pocket collapse) in the league.  That's a "legs" independent metric.  It says the center of their line is actually quite good.  You don't do that with "total garbage"

 

Mahomes was struggling to complete accurate throws early in the SB game because the 49ers DL is legit elite, not because the center of KC OL is "total garbage".  He did better in the 2nd half because they made adjustments, including some of those deeper drops implemented because they realized that Hill would completely undress the SF DBs given a bit more time.  And he did.

 

Kudos to him, kudos to the coaches, kudos to the team.  Now take that "total garbage" thing to a Chiefs board where it's prolly equally unwelcome right now.

[RoyBatty is alive]

8 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Dawkins and Ford can't hold their blocks up in a 7 step drop.   As MJS said, the play defines the drop.  The NFL has evolved to reads that are  mainly pre-snap, and often limited to a single portion of the field.   So many throws that are predetermined based on play design.  Add shotgun and pistol formations and the length of the drop is less and less important that making the correct read pre-snap

Best thing Daboll can do is more play action, fix the screen game, allow Knox to develop and get better at RT (either Ford plays better which I think is what will happen or upgrade and move Ford to LG)

 

Yep, exactly how Brady has been around for so long, gets the bal lout quickly and knows where the ball is going proabaly 75% of the time before he gets the snap.

 

Giving Allena a lot of 5 or 7 step drops with our tackles and his inexperince would be terrible right now for his development.

 

I am not so sure on Knox, i am not certain his drops can be "fixed".

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

Ford at guard is a good idea, but where as Spain and Feliciano are solid.  If healthy, I like Nseke at RT.  The problem is he doesn’t stay healthy.  If we take a tackle maybe not high in the draft, that would make sense.

 

Spain is a FA and while he has said he'd like to be back and would like to get 'er done before FA, he also wants a payday and I'm not sure his run blocking is elite.

We definitely seemed to have a problem with run blocking and I'm not sure where it stood.

[Zerovoltz]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Sorry, but when your team has just won the Superbowl against one of the best DLs in football and you come on another team's board to whinge about how "total garbage" the center of your team's OL is, that's just pathetic.

 

The 49ers gave up the fewest passing yards in the league this year for a reason, and it wasn't because their secondary is truly elite or they blitz a lot - only 20.9%, yet they're 5th in the league in sacks and 2nd in pressures.  Hmmmmm.

 

The Chiefs gave Mahomes the 3rd longest pocket time (time between snap and pocket collapse) in the league.  That's a "legs" independent metric.  It says the center of their line is actually quite good.  You don't do that with "total garbage"

 

Mahomes was struggling to complete accurate throws early in the SB game because the 49ers DL is legit elite, not because the center of KC OL is "total garbage".  He did better in the 2nd half because they made adjustments, including some of those deeper drops implemented because they realized that Hill would completely undress the SF DBs given a bit more time.  And he did.

 

Kudos to him, kudos to the coaches, kudos to the team.  Now take that "total garbage" thing to a Chiefs board where it's prolly equally unwelcome right now.

 

Clearly they won the SB....so whatever they had across the board was good enough.  I'm not complaining, but that doesn't mean there aren't flaws on the team.  There are.  It doesn't change that KC had bad/below average interior o line (the tackles are good)  It was a weakness on the team.  I'll stand by it.....they overcame it. 

 

The metric you post, in bold is interesting.  I'd like to know the criteria....as KC does have good tackles, so I can see a scenario where in cases that the interior line did hold up, the tackles almost certainly did as well and the aggregate would show a high rating like this.  I wish I could get video to post....there is ALOT of it showing the G-C-G just completely being outmatched throughout the year.  Again, they got around it and won the SB. 

 

Part of why they didn't sign Morse to a long term deal wasn't his ability....he was a far superior player at C....but his injury history made them leary to commit long term on guy who might have been another concussion or 2 away from being done.  Morse is a great player and truly was a big reason why Mahomes was able to go 50/5000 in 2018 but not so much in 2019.  I suppose we'll just have to disagree here.  Also, the take isn't THAT unpopular in KC....it's been an issue all year. 

[The Jokeman]

Mahomes played a lot of hero ball in that Super Bowl, Tareek Hill bailed him out on that 44 yard pass that turned the game around. Toss in that Jimmy G fell a part at the worst possible time. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by The Jokeman

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

I've thought the same thing when watching Patrick Mahomes, and wondered if it could work for our offense.

His distance from the line of scrimmage often gives him 10-15 yards of space before the pass rush can get close to him, and gives the receivers more time to get deep.

 

Josh Allen is one of the few players (besides Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers, etc.) with enough arm strength to make this work.  

 

To the person that said our O-Line can't hold on a 7-step drop.... watch how Kansas City executes these plays.  Mahomes doesn't do this from under center.  He takes very deep shotgun snaps, then continues moving backwards or laterally as the play happens, instead of stepping up into the pocket.  The O-Line isn't forced to hold blocks longer than on normal pass plays.  

 

It helps when they don't call holding on you... KC was holding all game and still getting beat.  GB holds almost all the time.  

[ngbills]

Any QB not just Allen can make throws out of a 7 step drop. Yes, Allen has a stronger arm that a lot of guys. But people on this board think its some miraculous thing that no one else can do. All NFL QB's can make the throws.

 

The drop is all about the timing of the play and if your OL can protect the QB that long as well as your QB being comfortable in the pocket and making reads. That is not the Bills or Josh Allen at this time. 

[RyanC883]

4 hours ago, 298Woody said:

We need another RT free agent, rookies take too long and the OL is critical to success.

 

 

totally agree.  Conklin!!!

[iccrewman112]

4 hours ago, 298Woody said:

We need another RT free agent, rookies take too long and the OL is critical to success.

 

Jack Conklin from Tennessee. They will spend most of their money to retain Henry and Tannehill.

[Chandler#81]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Sorry, but when your team has just won the Superbowl against one of the best DLs in football and you come on another team's board to whinge about how "total garbage" the center of your team's OL is, that's just pathetic.

 

The 49ers gave up the fewest passing yards in the league this year for a reason, and it wasn't because their secondary is truly elite or they blitz a lot - only 20.9%, yet they're 5th in the league in sacks and 2nd in pressures.  Hmmmmm.

 

The Chiefs gave Mahomes the 3rd longest pocket time (time between snap and pocket collapse) in the league.  That's a "legs" independent metric.  It says the center of their line is actually quite good.  You don't do that with "total garbage"

 

Mahomes was struggling to complete accurate throws early in the SB game because the 49ers DL is legit elite, not because the center of KC OL is "total garbage".  He did better in the 2nd half because they made adjustments, including some of those deeper drops implemented because they realized that Hill would completely undress the SF DBs given a bit more time.  And he did.

 

Kudos to him, kudos to the coaches, kudos to the team.  Now take that "total garbage" thing to a Chiefs board where it's prolly equally unwelcome right now.

Respectfully disagree with the bolded. It means they DO suck and a deeper drop with an accurate canon arm can beat it.

3 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Mahomes played a lot of hero ball in that Super Bowl, Tareek Hill bailed him out on that 44 yard pass that turned the game around. Toss in that Jimmy G fell a part at the worst possible time. 

This IS Josh Allen and we should take a page from their playbook. It’s the fastest way to move Allen UP from Average QB status.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Respectfully disagree with the bolded. It means they DO suck and a deeper drop with an accurate canon arm can beat it.

 

I appreciate the respect, but the conclusion doesn't seem to follow for me.

 

The measure of pocket time, is how long there's a pocket from which the QB to stand in and throw from, not the QB's time to throw.  How can the fact that Mahomes' OL gave him the 3rd longest pocket time in the league be proof that the OL sucks?

 

 

[Aussie Joe]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Spain is a FA and while he has said he'd like to be back and would like to get 'er done before FA, he also wants a payday and I'm not sure his run blocking is elite.

We definitely seemed to have a problem with run blocking and I'm not sure where it stood.

So what will be your solution to replacing Spain?

 

 

[Chandler#81]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I appreciate the respect, but the conclusion doesn't seem to follow for me.

 

The measure of pocket time, is how long there's a pocket from which the QB to stand in and throw from, not the QB's time to throw.  How can the fact that Mahomes' OL gave him the 3rd longest pocket time in the league be proof that the OL sucks?

 

 

It’s a tough challenge, but it has a lot to do with their enviable speed at skill positions. These are guys are open when they’re not and a couple extra seconds backpedaling allows Mahomes to see them separate and launch howitzers. It’s unconventional, to be sure, but it is what they’re doing. Josh has the same makeup as Mahomes but nowhere near the talent around him. I think it’s the clearest reason the Chiefs won all 3 playoff games AFTER surrendering double digit leads. That’s never been done and nothing short of phenomenal.

 

[Zerovoltz]

37 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I appreciate the respect, but the conclusion doesn't seem to follow for me.

 

The measure of pocket time, is how long there's a pocket from which the QB to stand in and throw from, not the QB's time to throw.  How can the fact that Mahomes' OL gave him the 3rd longest pocket time in the league be proof that the OL sucks?

 

 

 

Not the whole line.....the tackles are good....so is it possible the metric might be something like this?

 

10 passing play snaps.

 

3 of those, the G-C-G has a fail or more than one fail.  The pocket collapses quickly. 

2 of those the G-C-G has a fail, but Mahomes steps up or into a safer spot in the pocket....maybe counts because he escaped and the pocket integrity was reestablished because of where he moved to.

4 of those, the G-C-G holds up, and so the tackles....as the Chiefs throw deep more than most teams..Mahomes hangs in the pocket for a good while....somewhat inflating the stat and diminishing the bad pocket time by pushing the high end time up on successful pockets.

1 snap where the OT fails and pressure comes from the edge.

 

I'm not saying this is how they came up with that rating.....but if you'd be open to some film review, it's not a case where you have to nit pick at it to see the problem on the interior line...it's obvious to even the most untrained eye.

 

Lastly.....even at that....they overcame the defficiency one way or another...so not complaining....just pointing out...this area was a weak spot on a good team.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

So what will be your solution to replacing Spain?

Too many pathways and some info I don’t have.  Has Ford played LG?  How does Mongo compare at LG vs RG?  Do they like Waddle & want to keep him?

 

One path would be to slide Mongo to LG (if he’s good there, I know he’s played it), move Ford inside to RG, and go after a RT in FA (Conklin).

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

I don't think it's just Mahomes.

 

Watching Lamar Jackson when he passes he seems to really drop back a lot.  I don't know if this is for the sake of helping with field vision or what, but Allen certainly has the arm strength where dropping back farther wouldn't really hinder him.

[billsherd]

8 hours ago, mjt328 said:

I've thought the same thing when watching Patrick Mahomes, and wondered if it could work for our offense.

His distance from the line of scrimmage often gives him 10-15 yards of space before the pass rush can get close to him, and gives the receivers more time to get deep.

 

Josh Allen is one of the few players (besides Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers, etc.) with enough arm strength to make this work.  

 

To the person that said our O-Line can't hold on a 7-step drop.... watch how Kansas City executes these plays.  Mahomes doesn't do this from under center.  He takes very deep shotgun snaps, then continues moving backwards or laterally as the play happens, instead of stepping up into the pocket.  The O-Line isn't forced to hold blocks longer than on normal pass plays.  

^^^^Bills need to look at how KC uses Mahomes. It gives you the impression that KC's oline is very good.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I would like PFF to do a run down on top 10 QB’s and how much more the O-Line gets away with holding.

[transplantbillsfan]

There's a Kubiak article actually discussing this very topic in the Buffalo News... anyone with a subscription like @Hapless Bills Fan who might be willing to post some highlights for those of us without???

[LABILLBACKER]

On 2/3/2020 at 10:36 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

Dawkins and Ford can't hold their blocks up in a 7 step drop.   As MJS said, the play defines the drop.  The NFL has evolved to reads that are  mainly pre-snap, and often limited to a single portion of the field.   So many throws that are predetermined based on play design.  Add shotgun and pistol formations and the length of the drop is less and less important that making the correct read pre-snap

Best thing Daboll can do is more play action, fix the screen game, allow Knox to develop and get better at RT (either Ford plays better which I think is what will happen or upgrade and move Ford to LG)

I want to see much more play action. Josh's QB rating is like 110 in play action.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

There's a Kubiak article actually discussing this very topic in the Buffalo News... anyone with a subscription like @Hapless Bills Fan who might be willing to post some highlights for those of us without???

 

Absolutely!  I was intending to put up a thread for it tomorrow, but I'll start in here

https://buffalonews.com/2020/02/05/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-quarterback-dropbacks/

 

First of all, let me say it's a bit of a departure for Jim and for Bills Blitz - it's a much more in depth technical look at pass protection and QB drops.  It may be a "trial balloon" to see how well this stuff plays for them.  It is, in my opinion, WELL worth a read if you're interested in the meat-and-potatoes of football but you're not a professional coach or scout.

I would recommend starting a Bills Blitz trial (you have to register, but you can cancel) just to get at the full text. 

 

I can not possibly do it justice.

 

Fundamentally, Kubiak's conclusion (and he spends a lot of time backing this up with quotes from an OL coach) is that the depth of the drop the QB takes is relatively insignificant, relative to the amount of time the QB holds the ball, the rush scheme, and the protection scheme (with time holding the ball being the principle factor)  If a deeper drop impacts pass protection, it would largely be via increasing the time taken by the drop (thus lengthening the time the QB holds the ball). 

 

I have some questions/caveats about this, but whatever you think, there's a lot of good stuff in that article - especially if you like your x's and o's and technical discussion.