The fair catch, that wasn't.

[B-Large]

Where the ruleS are more like guidelines, and subjective common sense prevails...

 

no wonder the NFL is losing viewership. 

2 minutes ago, Chandemonium said:

BS call. Certainly everyone knows that his intent was to give himself up, but he never actually did it. It was a mental mistake that the Bills recognized and capitalized on, only to have points taken off the board because apparently now the game is selectively officiated based on subjective interpretations of what players meant to do, rather than what actually happens on the field. As bad as I would have felt for the guy for making such a costly and boneheaded mistake, that shouldn’t mean you can just ignore the rules and rob the other team in the process.

it’s a call that goes against the Bills, of that i have zero doubt.  It’s like PI reviews being a judgement call now.... it’s either an infraction or it’s not... there really isn’t any inferring, it is what it is... 

[mannc]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Again, if you go exactly by the rulebook, there's holding every play and pass interference on most if not all pass plays. The rulebook is applied with discretion.

 

IMO this has happened a dozen times this year, minimum, and each time was treated as giving it up, and nobody said a word. I'm not willing to go looking through the whole year for it, about a minor argument. And this is a minor argument. And you'd have to look because when it's happened before, the ref simply grabbed the ball, blew the whistle and marched the ball to the 25 and nobody said a damn thing. I could be wrong, but I know that early in the year several times I thought, "Isn't that a live ball?" And it never was. And so I got it that the refs weren't enforcing that rule very strictly. The thing that made this play different is that the ref dodged the ball. The Bills saw that and kept running. That's what they're taught, I think is if you're not sure keep running till you hear whistles.

 

If the refs are going to make this call, do it early in the year so everyone knows you're serious. The last thing you do is not apply it during the season and then during the playoff suddenly break the trend and apply it.

 

He tossed the ball to the ref and walked away. No way this could have been a fake. If a fake happened, yeah, I suspect at that point the refs would call it by the book and if no whistle was blown at any point, the defenses would keep running. But the play would've been called based on whether the whistle was blown.

I can’t ever remember seeing the KO return man catch the ball and casually flip it to the ref without downing it.  If you’re right though, then why did this particular ref decide, on this play,  to treat the flip from the return man like a live ball and refuse to catch it, notwithstanding that return men “do it all the time” without consequence?   Did he just decide on the spot to screw the Texans?

 

To me—and under the rules—it’s no different than if a punt returner fielded a punt without signaling a fair catch and then flipped the ball to the ref without attempting to advance it.  Clear fumble and a bonehead play by the return man.

Edited January 5, 2020 by mannc

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

50 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You don’t make a call like that in a playoff game when it hasn’t been made all year.  Just like the crackback call; haven’t seen that either

You’d think one of the three or four calls that went against us, that were borderline, might have gone our way. Just one.  Kickoff f-up.  3rd and 18.  Hopkins first down that was short.  3rd and 18 delay of game.  Crack back.  All of them can happen in any game, but to happen in 38 minutes of football and be on the wrong side each time....what are the odds?

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

You’d think one of the three or four calls that went against us, that were borderline, might have gone our way. Just one.  Kickoff f-up.  3rd and 18.  Hopkins first down that was short.  3rd and 18 delay of game.  Crack back.  All of them can happen in any game, but to happen in 38 minutes of football and be on the wrong side each time....what are the odds?

Most egregious one to me was the delay of game that should have been called on Watson's big play.  I know folks say what you see on TV isn't necessarily the time on the field, but it was clearly a late snap.

 

Regardless of the penalties called or not or not, we had opportunities.  Josh's fumble hurt, Brown forgetting how to use his feet, the defense folding when we really needed it, play calling that left Singletary running out of the game the second half and OT.  Lot of reasons.

Edited January 5, 2020 by oldmanfan

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Again, if you go exactly by the rulebook, there's holding every play and pass interference on most if not all pass plays. The rulebook is applied with discretion.

 

IMO this has happened a dozen times this year, minimum, and each time was treated as giving it up, and nobody said a word. I'm not willing to go looking through the whole year for it, about a minor argument. And this is a minor argument. And you'd have to look because when it's happened before, the ref simply grabbed the ball, blew the whistle and marched the ball to the 25 and nobody said a damn thing. I could be wrong, but I know that early in the year several times I thought, "Isn't that a live ball?" And it never was. And so I got it that the refs weren't enforcing that rule very strictly. The thing that made this play different is that the ref dodged the ball. The Bills saw that and kept running. That's what they're taught, I think is if you're not sure keep running till you hear whistles.

 

If the refs are going to make this call, do it early in the year so everyone knows you're serious. The last thing you do is not apply it during the season and then during the playoff suddenly break the trend and apply it.

 

He tossed the ball to the ref and walked away. No way this could have been a fake. If a fake happened, yeah, I suspect at that point the refs would call it by the book and if no whistle was blown at any point, the defenses would keep running. But the play would've been called based on whether the whistle was blown.

does it give you pause that an official working his 21st(?) game of the season thought this was unique behavior for a returner in games he’s called?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Most egregious one to me was the delay of game that should have been called on Watson's big play.  I know folks say what you see on TV isn't necessarily the time on the field, but it was clearly a late snap.

 

Regardless of the penalties called or not or not, we had opportunities.  Josh's fumble hurt, Brown forgetting how to use his feet, the defense folding when we really needed it, play calling that left Singletary running out of the game the second half and OT.  Lot of reasons.

Agreed. Add to that the “top 5” defense that surrendered 19 points after a lights out 3 quarter effort. 16 points beats NE yesterday, and Tennessee absent the pick six with 20 seconds to go (and NE lost 2 of its last 3 games, the only win coming during Brady’s surprise resurrection as a pinpoint passer with incredible accuracy).  
 

The offensive plays that I woke up thinking about today were the Qb sweep where the blocking broke down, and that fumble where JA was about to gallop for about 15 yards. Ugh. 

[Dirtyd415]

7 hours ago, DCOrange said:

An intentional forward moving fumble is an illegal forward pass and is dead the second it hits the ground so no TD. 

Only in the field of play, not in the end zones 

[Kmart128]

4 minutes ago, Dirtyd415 said:

Only in the field of play, not in the end zones 

 

No it would have been ruled dead but since infraction occured in endzone it would have been ruled a safety

[SoCal Deek]

Didn’t the Bills do the exact same thing a couple of years ago, or was it last year, when they let the kickoff sit there in the end zone against the Jets? We didn’t get any love from the NFL! They let it stand.

[Dirtyd415]

2 minutes ago, Kmart128 said:

 

No it would have been ruled dead but since infraction occured in endzone it would have been ruled a safety

Not true...let’s say running back received a handoff 5 yards deep in the end zone, proceeds to fumble the ball forward towards the goal line.  Defender picks it up, it’s a touchdown, not a dead ball/safety.

[Orlando Tim]

I am actually curious if anyone had any video of another team doing this during season? I do believe his intentions were to give himself up but I think literally every time I have seen it before player actually knelt or not played ball.

[Kmart128]

4 minutes ago, Dirtyd415 said:

Not true...let’s say running back received a handoff 5 yards deep in the end zone, proceeds to fumble the ball forward towards the goal line.  Defender picks it up, it’s a touchdown, not a dead ball/safety.

 

But he didnt fumble it forward. There is a difference between that because the RB never had complete control and a RB wouldnt be motioning his hand forward. The returner tossed the ball forward to an official... so hand was moving forward. Would have been treated the same as a forward lateral or a like one of those pitch the ball forward plays that teams do now to prevent fumbles. Thats why at why at one point head ref threw his flag on the ground and i heard him talking to other refs live that said "I have an illegal forward pass"

 

The big difference is that his hand was noving forward intentionally so by rule its a forward lateral and a penalty

2 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I am actually curious if anyone had any video of another team doing this during season? I do believe his intentions were to give himself up but I think literally every time I have seen it before player actually knelt or not played ball.

 

Only time i see this happen is when they catch the ball but there feet were out of bounds. Other than that they kneel it or just let it go

[SoCal Deek]

The appropriate analogy is the player who intentionally drops the ball before crossing the goal line. Everyone knows he wasn’t trying to fumble but the rule book shows no mercy....ever! This should’ve been a Bills touchdown. Players are not spared by boneheaded decisions....ever!

[DCOrange]

17 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Didn’t the Bills do the exact same thing a couple of years ago, or was it last year, when they let the kickoff sit there in the end zone against the Jets? We didn’t get any love from the NFL! They let it stand.

Yes. And ironically, they changed the rule after the fact so if we made that mistake again today, it would be a touchback. 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, DCOrange said:

Yes. And ironically, they changed the rule after the fact so if we made that mistake again today, it would be a touchback. 

Is that true? I didn’t actually know that. Interesting. I remember watching that game and screaming at the TV! One of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

The more I think about this play the more I believe it should have been a bills touchdown

 

How many times a season does a returner take a few slow/walking steps and then take off out of the end zone?

 

It was a mental mistake and in the playoffs keeping calm and not making mental mistakes is huge

 

Edit: other plays that this in my opinion puts into an even greyer zone - fake kneels(saw this against the ravens) fake spikes, as someone mentioned earlier dropping the ball before crossing the goal line(watkins, demean Jackson)

Edited January 5, 2020 by Cheektowaga Chad

[DCOrange]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Is that true? I didn’t actually know that. Interesting. I remember watching that game and screaming at the TV! One of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen. 

Yes, if the ball hits the end zone now, it’s a touchback just like it is on punts. That’s why the Texans kick returner stopped catching the kicks after his mistake. If you don’t intend to return the kick, there’s no reason to even catch the ball anymore. Only bad things can come from it. 

[Kmart128]

5 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

Yes. And ironically, they changed the rule after the fact so if we made that mistake again today, it would be a touchback. 

This is incorrect. You are thinking of the Jets and Bills kick off. That wouldnt be a touchback today. On kickoffs if the ball lands in the field of play and rolls into endzone its still considered a live ball. Its like an onside kick. However if ball travels the entire way into the air and land into the endzone then its a automatic touchback. In that Bills and Jets play the ball landed in play and rolled into the endzone. Mile Gillislee tracked it down but didnt recover it. Had he... he would have been tackled and gotten a safety but since he let it go the Jets got a TD instead.

[Turk71]

15 minutes ago, Kmart128 said:

 

But he didnt fumble it forward. There is a difference between that because the RB never had complete control and a RB wouldnt be motioning his hand forward. The returner tossed the ball forward to an official... so hand was moving forward. Would have been treated the same as a forward lateral or a like one of those pitch the ball forward plays that teams do now to prevent fumbles. Thats why at why at one point head ref threw his flag on the ground and i heard him talking to other refs live that said "I have an illegal forward pass"

 

The big difference is that his hand was noving forward intentionally so by rule its a forward lateral and a penalty

 

Only time i see this happen is when they catch the ball but there feet were out of bounds. Other than that they kneel it or just let it go

Garbage. Fumbles go forward backward or sideways, a live ball is a live ball. Forward lateral is to a teammate.

[jlgarsh]

Serious question:  can the Bills file a protest/Grievance?  It might not get reversed but it was a disgusting display of the head referee getting overturned 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Kmart128 said:

This is incorrect. You are thinking of the Jets and Bills kick off. That wouldnt be a touchback today. On kickoffs if the ball lands in the field of play and rolls into endzone its still considered a live ball. Its like an onside kick. However if ball travels the entire way into the air and land into the endzone then its a automatic touchback. In that Bills and Jets play the ball landed in play and rolled into the endzone. Mile Gillislee tracked it down but didnt recover it. Had he... he would have been tackled and gotten a safety but since he let it go the Jets got a TD instead.

There you go. That’s how I remember it. Still an incredibly dumb play at the time. And I still say this odd guys in the black jackets had no business coming into the field of play and overturning the Referee. Who are those guys?

[Kmart128]

2 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

Garbage. Fumbles go forward backward or sideways, a live ball is a live ball. Forward lateral is to a teammate.

Not necessarily... on end of plays games players accidentally  pitch ball forward to no one in particular a lot and refs still throw the flag in those situations. Hand was going forward. If he had just dropped the ball and it went forward its a TD. But his hand motion was moving forward making it a forward pass instead of a fumble.

[Turk71]

14 minutes ago, Kmart128 said:

Not necessarily... on end of plays games players accidentally  pitch ball forward to no one in particular a lot and refs still throw the flag in those situations. Hand was going forward. If he had just dropped the ball and it went forward its a TD. But his hand motion was moving forward making it a forward pass instead of a fumble.

Only if their teammate gets the ball, if the other team does its just a fumble. You can't throw forward passes on kickoffs. Get a clue.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Turk71

[Kmart128]

1 minute ago, Turk71 said:

Only if their teammate gets the ball, if the other team does its just a fumble.

 

Sometimes a ref would let that go just to have game end but its incorrect 

[DCOrange]

26 minutes ago, Kmart128 said:

This is incorrect. You are thinking of the Jets and Bills kick off. That wouldnt be a touchback today. On kickoffs if the ball lands in the field of play and rolls into endzone its still considered a live ball. Its like an onside kick. However if ball travels the entire way into the air and land into the endzone then its a automatic touchback. In that Bills and Jets play the ball landed in play and rolled into the endzone. Mile Gillislee tracked it down but didnt recover it. Had he... he would have been tackled and gotten a safety but since he let it go the Jets got a TD instead.

I’m still not sure I am. The rule book says if the ball touches the ground in the end zone at all, it’s a touchback. It doesn’t say it needs to initially land in the end zone. Maybe that’s the way it’s enforced but it’s not the way it’s written in the rule book. 

25 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

There you go. That’s how I remember it. Still an incredibly dumb play at the time. And I still say this odd guys in the black jackets had no business coming into the field of play and overturning the Referee. Who are those guys?

Those are the alternate refs. He almost certainly was talking to the league office and they sent him out there to make sure the refs didn’t actually go through with enforcing the rule. 

[Southern Bills Fan]

Tim Hasslebeck just said on espn that it should have been an illegal forward pass in the end zone. Safety for the Bills and Houston should have then been kicking off to the Bills. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Southern Bills Fan

[Shaw66]

7 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Best post ever and absolutely correct.

But I think people are correct that it was an illegal forward pass,  in which case it probably was a dead ball, so no TD.  It's either a touchback with a half the distance to the goal line penalty or a safety.  

 

Whatever, it wasn't a touchback. 

 

It's the give-every-kid-a-trophy culture.  We don't want to punish him for making an innocent mistake, he might feel bad. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

13 hours ago, MJS said:

He gave himself up. Remember the Tee White INT where he ran back into the end zone? They rules that Tre White gave himself up too. Can't have it both ways.

There’s a big difference between laying on the ground and walking forward on a kickoff return. Kick returners will stand and read the blocking at times before taking the ball out.  
 

Did he intend to give himself up? Yes. But intent doesn’t matter. Josh intended to get the ball past the line of scrimmage on his intentional grounding but the ball didn’t get there so it was a penalty.  Returner should have taken a knee or let the ball go. 

55 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

The more I think about this play the more I believe it should have been a bills touchdown

 

How many times a season does a returner take a few slow/walking steps and then take off out of the end zone?

 

It was a mental mistake and in the playoffs keeping calm and not making mental mistakes is huge

 

Edit: other plays that this in my opinion puts into an even greyer zone - fake kneels(saw this against the ravens) fake spikes, as someone mentioned earlier dropping the ball before crossing the goal line(watkins, demean Jackson)

A lot. This is my point as well. He walked forward and never gave himself up. This is like when Plaxico Burress caught the ball and fell to the ground with nobody touching him then got up and spiked or spun the ball. It was an idiotic mistake that had consequences. The returner should have taken a knee or let the ball go out of the endzone. 

[skibum]

 

My question is, if instead of throwing the ball on the ground, he ran it out - would they have blown the play dead as a touchback? 

 

If the answer is no, it should have been Touchdown Bills. It's either a live ball or it's not. You either signal Fair Catch or you don't. You either take a knee or you don't. Throwing a ball on the ground has never been a legitimate means of surrendering a play - just ask Josh Allen. 

 

I also think that in a parallel universe, if Andre Roberts had done the same thing and the Texans were granted a touchdown, we would all be sitting here talking about what an idiot Andre Roberts is. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by skibum

[SCBills]

I don’t care too much about this, but I do care that this was called this way, yet they didn’t feel the need to let Ford’s less-than-mild “crackback block” go or call the delay of game on 3rd and 18.  

[Big Turk]

13 hours ago, peterpan said:

I've never seen that signal before.  Since when does double fists, arms spread, signal a fair catch/give up???  I'm wondering when that became a legal signal and/or why the call was overturned?!?!?

 

Its a "safe" sign for the kickoff team signalling he will not be returning the ball and they don't need to block.

 

That being said what possible reason does a player have for even touching a ball that makes it to the endzone if they aren't returning it? Just let it bounce and walk away. Only bad things can happen if they try to catch it.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by matter2003

[peterpan]

8 hours ago, DCOrange said:

An intentional forward moving fumble is an illegal forward pass and is dead the second it hits the ground so no TD. 

I get what you are saying, but I don't believe that would be the correct call.  I've only seen illegal forward pass called when the player is very clearly passing the ball.  Not just an underhand toss.  There's no historical argument to call that a pass.  

 

For example, the plaxico burress spike, was called a fumble.  Even tho he intentionally threw the ball and it moved forward.  

https://youtu.be/rNOvBSTqLoc

 

[DCOrange]

4 minutes ago, peterpan said:

I get what you are saying, but I don't believe that would be the correct call.  I've only seen illegal forward pass called when the player is very clearly passing the ball.  Not just an underhand toss.  There's no historical argument to call that a pass.  

 

For example, the plaxico burress spike, was called a fumble.  Even tho he intentionally threw the ball and it moved forward.  

https://youtu.be/rNOvBSTqLoc

 

Understood it isn’t always called that way, but there have definitely been forward laterals that we’re called. This is no different. The rule book clearly states that an intentional forward fumble is considered to be a forward pass. And in this case, it would be an illegal forward pass.

 

I also don’t think the refs knew if Plaxico threw it forwards or not since it was very close to being a downward spike. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by DCOrange

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

The more I think about this play the more I believe it should have been a bills touchdown

 

How many times a season does a returner take a few slow/walking steps and then take off out of the end zone?

 

It was a mental mistake and in the playoffs keeping calm and not making mental mistakes is huge

 

Edit: other plays that this in my opinion puts into an even greyer zone - fake kneels(saw this against the ravens) fake spikes, as someone mentioned earlier dropping the ball before crossing the goal line(watkins, demean Jackson)

It actually happens all of the time. That is the new way to signal “I’m not returning”, and I’ve seen it numerous times throughout the league. More to the point, this is a disaster of a thread and basically moon landing stuff for the nuttiest of Bills fans.

[plenzmd1]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It actually happens all of the time. That is the new way to signal “I’m not returning”, and I’ve seen it numerous times throughout the league. More to the point, this is a disaster of a thread and basically moon landing stuff for the nuttiest of Bills fans.

Not quite sure what you are saying Dave. Are you saying the “ safe”

signal is now accepted by the refs as you are giving your self up?

 

i don’t believe anyone in here is saying Bills lost because of this call or there is some grand conspiracy, but “ common sense” is not part of the rule book. 
 

under the rules this was a missed call, intent means nothing. 

[dave mcbride]

4 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Not quite sure what you are saying Dave. Are you saying the “ safe”

signal is now accepted by the refs as you are giving your self up?

 

i don’t believe anyone in here is saying Bills lost because of this call or there is some grand conspiracy, but “ common sense” is not part of the rule book. 
 

under the rules this was a missed call, intent means nothing. 

I am telling you - I have seen this multiple times throughout the league, and gene steratore said this too. It’s always treated as a touch back.

[plenzmd1]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

I am telling you - I have seen this multiple times throughout the league, and gene steratore said this too. It’s always treated as a touch back.

Simple question... is the safe signal noted in the rule book as a player giving himself up?

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, plenzmd1 said:

Simple question... is the safe signal noted in the rule book as a player giving himself up?

It’s ambiguous, but a rule-of-reason interpretation would find that that amounted to a touchback. Kneeling isn’t required, as far as I can tell.

 

If a ball gets to the end zone and touches the ground, it’s an automatic touchback. There’s no need for a player to pick it up and kneel, or even catch a ball if it’s headed for the end zone and they don’t intend to return it.

This is a small time saver, but the goal is to blow a play dead earlier so that unnecessary collisions don’t happen. Under the previous rules, a player could take their time gathering a ball and kneeling while the coverage team and return team blockers still careened toward each other for no reason.

[Jaywrizzo]

14 hours ago, suorangefan4 said:

 

Yet if a Houston player picked that up and ran it back for a TD it probably would've counted and not been overturned. And people everywhere would think it was a legit TD and mocking us.

 

 

 

Have U not watched a game all season...This is the 1st time U have seen this? This is what we're complaining about Today.....haha.....UNREAL

[4merper4mer]

21 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It actually happens all of the time. That is the new way to signal “I’m not returning”, and I’ve seen it numerous times throughout the league. More to the point, this is a disaster of a thread and basically moon landing stuff for the nuttiest of Bills fans.

Completely wrong.  You shouldn't talk down to people, especially when you're wrong.