Singletary finishes with EIGHT rushing attempts

[starrymessenger]

Just now, ganesh said:

The stats presented by the OP Disproves that theory. Every time Singletary touched the ball, he got positive yards....

 

Yeah, and like everybody else he wasn't doing much in the passing game. 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

80% of my posts this season on game day has been to give Singletary the ball. We did it 1 game and the guy was unstoppable. The Bills lose because of the Bills more often then because of the opponent. Very upsetting 

[John from Riverside]

4 minutes ago, NewEra said:

So basically, Josh Allen was pretty bad as he couldn’t do jack vs a stacked box.  

When teams stack the box it makes it easier to hit home runs.  Yet we haven’t hit a home run all season.  That lies the true problem IMO.

 

i love JA and I’m all in on him, but if we can’t pass vs a stacked box ALL GAME long, that’s a serious problem.  Mostly a QB play problem 

I think that sometimes just moving the chains and keeping your defense fresh is fine......let Mayfield sit on the bench and stew for a bit and watch him try to do to much and get picked.

 

To me not everything needs to be a home run play......just grind it out and be selective on your deep shots.....for instance on a 3d and 4......why do we need to go for a bomb when we can either run it for a first or let Josh get the first down?   I like deep shots on FIRST down

[mjohns85]

33 minutes ago, Logic said:

On Sunday, during and after the game, I was absolutely furious that Singletary didn't get more carries.

HOWEVER...reading through Daboll's presser comments and watching All-22 footage that seems to back them up, what he says rings true: The Browns basically packed the box all game long and dared the Bills to beat them through the air. You can make the argument that the Bills should have just run the ball anyway and tried to impose their will on the Browns, but I'm not sure how much success they would have had against all the 8 and 9 man boxes the Browns were presenting. What the Bills did instead was to try to force the Browns to back off by beating them through the air. The only problem was that the Bills couldn't/didn't beat them through the air, so the boxes kept getting stacked and the pressure kept coming. You'd like to think in these types of situations that the QB you selected in the 1st round would have the ability to make the opposing defense pay for over-committing to the run by punishing them through the air -- he could not. He did not. 

Less of my irritation and concern is directed toward Brian Daboll now, and more of it is directed at Josh Allen. He NEEDS to be able to make defenses pay when they do this, and he couldn't. He needs to step up. He needs to get better. If he doesn't, teams will just keep on doing this.

That frustration should be directed towards the front office, not Josh. Josh is far from perfect, but he needs legitimate weapons on offense to succeed.
 

Beasley and Brown are way better than last year WR corps; however he lacks a true #1 WR or an above average TE. 
 

Again Josh is far from perfect, but our lack of talent on offense is undeniable. 

[TH3]

48 minutes ago, Logic said:

 directed at Josh Allen. He NEEDS to be able to make defenses pay when they do this, and he couldn't. He needs to step up. He needs to get better. If he doesn't, teams will just keep on doing this.

I don't think JA is the primary issue....our wideouts are pedestrian....at best. Brown is nice....but after that we got nothing...Kroft is invisible....we don't even have a #2....Beasely is nice - but he is a scavenger...not a stretcher....

 

FFS....Baker has Landry and OBJ....

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think that sometimes just moving the chains and keeping your defense fresh is fine......let Mayfield sit on the bench and stew for a bit and watch him try to do to much and get picked.

 

To me not everything needs to be a home run play......just grind it out and be selective on your deep shots.....for instance on a 3d and 4......why do we need to go for a bomb when we can either run it for a first or let Josh get the first down?   I like deep shots on FIRST down

I’m just saying, when the opposing defense stacks the box all game long, like they said the browns did sunday, than the passing game needs to make more than a couple big plays.  It was pathetic to watch.

 

I hated that deep shot on 3rd and 4 too.

really wish every 3rd down play gave allen a solid option to run.  Seems like that’s our best option to get the first down at the moment 

[dorquemada]

58 minutes ago, ngbills said:

I know this has been talked about in general terms. But wanted to look at Devin Singletary vs Browns in closer detail. I find it absurd that he was not used more. I find it more absurd given how he performed the week prior. It is maddening to hear the logic and excuses from this coaching staff as to why he was not used more. I am losing any trust in them more each day.

 

All of his runs below.

 

He had 1 carry the entire 1st quarter and it went for 4 yards. Granted Bills only had two drives and both short ones. Maybe he is given rock that is different.

 

He had 2 carries in the second quarter. One went for 9 and the other for 8. Not able to run the ball? 

 

He had 5 carries in the 3rd quarter. This included a 10, 6 and 4 yd plus two for 1 and 0. Again, not bad for not being able to run. But 5 carries over 3 drives in a close game in the 3rd quarter and this was his heaviest workload? 

 

Zero carries in the 4th quarter. Bills have 3 possessions and he gets zero carries with Bills down 3 in all of these drives and plenty of clock. Even the last drive you have almost two minutes in prevent defense mode. 

 

Then we get the lame excuses. The box was stacked. We need to continue to evaluate. Blah blah blah. 

 

1	11:19	2	8	CLE 43	Devin Singletary right guard for 4 yards (tackle by Morgan Burnett and Damarious Randall)
2	14:48	1	10	BUF 24	Devin Singletary right guard for 9 yards (tackle by Damarious Randall)
2	12:58	2	10	BUF 48	Devin Singletary left tackle for 8 yards (tackle by Greedy Williams)
3	14:54	1	10	BUF 23	Devin Singletary right tackle for 1 yard (tackle by Larry Ogunjobi)
3	13:32	2	10	BUF 40	Devin Singletary right tackle for 10 yards (tackle by T.J. Carrie)
3	12:58	1	10	BUF 50	Devin Singletary right guard for 4 yards (tackle by Chad Thomas)
3	10:22	1	25	BUF 16	Devin Singletary right guard for 6 yards (tackle by Larry Ogunjobi and Damarious Randall)
3	1:35	2	4	CLE 36	Devin Singletary left guard for no gain (tackle by Sheldon Richardson)

 

No, you don't understand.  Daboll is saving Singletary for NEXT time they play the Browns.  He's playing 12th dimensional chess and you're stuck at checkers

 

[LABILLBACKER]

48 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So McDermott, before the game, called Browns DC Steve Wilks (who used to work for him) a "Damn good coach"

 

Wilks basically wagered that the Bills wouldn't figure out a way to run against 8 or 9 in the box.  And he was right.

But of course, globally one can, even with a line that is not great power-rushing. 

Daboll actually did some clever things to help us run last year with a worse OL.

 

The thing is, it's a bit of a Zebra and I don't mean a ref.  The straightforward way to beat that is with passing, and the point to remember is, while "almost only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades", we were only a couple of offensive and ST plays away from making the Browns fall on that thing.  And while sure, we all want Allen to be better because, Bottom Line, that's the job of the Franchise Man, there were other places those "couple of plays" could have come from:

-better play choice in some key situations playing to our strengths

-some drops or failures to haul in a contested ball

-some uncalled penalties

 

Stop babysitting your TE's and have them run short routes in the middle of the field.  Get Dabolls ass back up in the booth where he can see a stacked box live. Run play action more. This isn't rocket science and the Browns tipped their hand early.

Edited November 12, 2019 by LABILLBACKER

[Nextmanup]

54 minutes ago, Logic said:

On Sunday, during and after the game, I was absolutely furious that Singletary didn't get more carries.

HOWEVER...reading through Daboll's presser comments and watching All-22 footage that seems to back them up, what he says rings true: The Browns basically packed the box all game long and dared the Bills to beat them through the air. You can make the argument that the Bills should have just run the ball anyway and tried to impose their will on the Browns, but I'm not sure how much success they would have had against all the 8 and 9 man boxes the Browns were presenting. What the Bills did instead was to try to force the Browns to back off by beating them through the air. The only problem was that the Bills couldn't/didn't beat them through the air, so the boxes kept getting stacked and the pressure kept coming. You'd like to think in these types of situations that the QB you selected in the 1st round would have the ability to make the opposing defense pay for over-committing to the run by punishing them through the air -- he could not. He did not. 

Less of my irritation and concern is directed toward Brian Daboll now, and more of it is directed at Josh Allen. He NEEDS to be able to make defenses pay when they do this, and he couldn't. He needs to step up. He needs to get better. If he doesn't, teams will just keep on doing this.

I would imagine everyone is going to copy Belichick's blue print for shutting down our offense.

As BB said, make Josh Allen be a QB.  

 

 

[colin]

2 minutes ago, TH3 said:

I don't think JA is the primary issue....our wideouts are pedestrian....at best. Brown is nice....but after that we got nothing...Kroft is invisible....we don't even have a #2....Beasely is nice - but he is a scavenger...not a stretcher....

 

FFS....Baker has Landry and OBJ....

 

 

honestly, i sometimes marvel at how cheeks are skill position talent is.  our best play maker is a tie between brown and singletary (nod to brown, since we actually use him).  brown was a cast off from baltimore, and clevland's 4th best skill position player (i'd say that's hunt) is better than anyone baltimore has.

 

our pass d still did a very good job vs the browns, but they were able to run well and of course our O and special teams are horrid.

[Gray Beard]

Gore had a few runs that went nowhere. I wonder if Singletary was being under utilized because Daboll saw Gore consistently putting them in bad down and distance situations. 

[Logic]

26 minutes ago, mjohns85 said:

That frustration should be directed towards the front office, not Josh. Josh is far from perfect, but he needs legitimate weapons on offense to succeed.
 

Beasley and Brown are way better than last year WR corps; however he lacks a true #1 WR or an above average TE. 
 

Again Josh is far from perfect, but our lack of talent on offense is undeniable. 

I agree only to an extent. The fact is that the All-22 footage from yesterday reveals that there were numerous instances where receivers were open and Josh didn't find them. Just with the exact personnel that they already have in-house right now, they would have gotten the job done on Sunday if Allen had played better. The loss isn't all on him, obviously, but his play was a huge factor. I like Allen, for the record. Just look at my avatar. I want him to succeed and I'm nowhere near wanting to bench him or call him a bust or anything like that. Better weapons will help him, sure, but they won't fix everything. It's time for his play to take another step forward, or else defenses will keep beating the Bills the same exact way they did on Sunday.

15 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I would imagine everyone is going to copy Belichick's blue print for shutting down our offense.

As BB said, make Josh Allen be a QB.  

 

 

Nailed it. 

 

[Nihilarian]

35 minutes ago, ganesh said:

The stats presented by the OP Disproves that theory. Every time Singletary touched the ball, he got positive yards....

This is exactly right and instead of looking at the entire game lets look at the first half. 

 

Going back to the play by play in the Bills first series Singletary had one carry off RG for 4 yards. The Bills second series it was DeMarco off RG for 2 yards, Gore off RG for 4 yards. 

 

Third series, Singletary off RG for 9 yards, next play Gore off RG for 3 yards first down. Allen run first down, Allen pass. Singletary off left tackle for 8 yards, Gore RT for 2 yards. This series resulted in a rush TD by Allen. 

 

Fourth series it was all Allen with 10 passes and one run, no RB runs at all. FG no good near end of first half.

 

I think Daboll is full of crap. 19 passes vs 7 rushes in the first half. Singletary 3 rushes for 21 yards. 7.0 YPC doesn't look like a stacked box was effective against Singletary. The OC simply went pass happy while neglecting the run.  No excuse for this!

 

When you look at the actual runs by the running backs it was Singletary 8 carries, Gore 5 carries, DeMarco 1 carry. 14 called rushes by the Bills RBs vs 41 passes!

 

 

To me, it just makes no sense at all to make that young, inexperienced QB carry the offense all game by throwing it 40+ times. Its what losing teams with top QBs do all the time. 

 

After watching Singletary against the Redskins he looks to be a special RB that can be the star player on offense, so why not make him the focal point instead? 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Nihilarian

[starrymessenger]

1 minute ago, Nihilarian said:

This is exactly right and instead of looking at the entire game lets look at the first half. 

 

Going back to the play by play in the Bills first series Singletary had one carry off RG for 4 yards. The Bills second series it was DeMarco off RG for 2 yards, Gore off RG for 4 yards. 

 

Third series, Singletary off RG for 9 yards, next play Gore off RG for 3 yards first down. Allen run first down, Allen pass. Singletary off left tackle for 8 yards, Gore RT for 2 yards. This series resulted in a rush TD by Allen. 

 

Fourth series it was all Allen with 10 passes and one run, no RB runs at all. FG no good near end of first half.

 

I think Daboll is full of crap. 19 passes vs 7 rushes in the first half. Singletary 3 rushes for 21 yards. 

 

When you look at the actual runs by the running backs it was Singletary 8 carries, Gore 5 carries, DeMarco 1 carry. 14 called rushes by the Bills RBs vs 41 passes!

 

 

To me, it just makes no sense at all to make that young, inexperienced QB carry the offense all game by throwing it 40+ times. Its what losing teams with top QBs do all the time. 

 

After watching Singletary against the Redskins he looks to be a special RB that can be the star player on offense, so why not make him the focal point instead? 

 

 

They don't call him motor for nothin.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

The stats presented by the OP Disproves that theory. Every time Singletary touched the ball, he got positive yards....

Singletary did about as well as any back in his situation, but the success he had was in getting tough yards after contact.  I guess we could continue to run our 5’7” 200# RB into a stacked box all day rather than ask our 7th overall pick QB to beat man coverage, but I do see some problems there as well.  One is that I’m pretty sure Singletary won’t last all that long doing that.  I’d have done things like run some draws to him when the Browns finally backed off, but I’d have limited running him into 8+ defenders.  Notably no other back had any success running the ball.

 

The other, much bigger, issue is this:  It means the Bills have given up on Allen.  After the Washington game I really thought that was the case and the offense had been tailored to protect him, but I was wrong and the Cleveland game shows it.  What’s more, the whole team will know it if their plan is to run into stacked boxes rather than put the ball in his hands - and that’s really the problem.  They’d be better off making it official and starting Barkley.
 

I was never a believer in Allen, but I’ve tried to give him a chance.  Turns out that he’s the guy I (most people) thought he was coming out of college and he’s going to have to prove he’s more to get me to change my mind.  I was done giving him a pass after game 8 this season.

[starrymessenger]

I don't think making greater use of Singletary means you've given up on Josh. A good back is a young QBs best friend.  I don't think that at 5'7" and 200 lbs there is any risk of shortening his career if he gets 20+ touches per in the Brown's game. He was the centrepiece, or motor, of his offence in college. Helping to carry an offence is what he does. So far I've seen nothing that suggests he is unable to transition in this role as a pro. Let one of the leagues worst run Ds prove that they can shut him down before you abandon the run entirely. Brown's didn't do that (they didn't have to). More likely the Patriots could. Browns are not the Pats. Situational awareness. 

[reddogblitz]

23 hours ago, Nitro said:

The coach and the WGR apologists say they had eight men in the box. So?  Attack them.  Make them try to stop the run.  This fear that they show is a trait Danilo has shown in other stops.  This is not modern NFL offensive mindset.  Be aggressive or you will be left behind.  Bottom third offense is not acceptable either is being timid.

 

Totally.  The Clowns stink at defending the run. Does putting another guy in there turn them into the 85 Bears.

 

Even with the stacked box Singletary was able to get 5.3 per carry over all 8 carries.

 

 Lame excuse IMHO

[BananaB]

We move the ball better as a team when Singletary is getting handed the ball. It’s just that simple. It’s weird Daboll can’t figure this out. Gore is not a threat and right now neither is Josh Allens arm. 

[Mr. WEO]

What's everyone crying about?  That's Singletary's second highest number of carries in a game this season.

[ngbills]

Please please please. Stop with the you cant run when the defense stacks the box. That is such a horrible excuse. SO many ways to attack this. Its ridiculous. Lucky for Adrian Peterson nobody thought of stacking the box or he would never even sniffed a 2K yard season. 

 

You can run it at them at anyway.

You can use formations that remove guys from the box.

You can use motion.

You can add more blockers to the box.

You can design runs away from the extra defender.

You can call the correct pass plays.

On and on and on.

[BarleyNY]

53 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

I don't think making greater use of Singletary means you've given up on Josh. A good back is a young QBs best friend.  I don't think that at 5'7" and 200 lbs there is any risk of shortening his career if he gets 20+ touches per in the Brown's game. He was the centrepiece, or motor, of his offence in college. Helping to carry an offence is what he does. So far I've seen nothing that suggests he is unable to transition in this role as a pro. Let one of the leagues worst run Ds prove that they can shut him down before you abandon the run entirely. Brown's didn't do that (they didn't have to). More likely the Patriots could. Browns are not the Pats. Situational awareness. 

Browns are below average against both the pass and run.  DVOA for passing defense ranks them 19th and their DVOA for rushing defense ranks them 22nd.  Hardly a big difference.  They were also stacking the box against the run.  It’s good to know the real situation.  I’d love my main point addressed.  Why are people advocating running Singletary into a stacked box as the solution while leaving unaddressed Allen’s issues throwing against man coverage or man with a single high safety?  Why is the former the issue and not the latter?

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Browns are below average against both the pass and run.  DVOA for passing defense ranks them 19th and their DVOA for rushing defense ranks them 22nd.  Hardly a big difference.  They were also stacking the box against the run.  It’s good to know the real situation.  I’d love my main point addressed.  Why are people advocating running Singletary into a stacked box as the solution while leaving unaddressed Allen’s issues throwing against man coverage or man with a single high safety?  Why is the former the issue and not the latter?

So as the Bills OC, how would you scheme plays to minimize those issues while Allen develops ? 

[reddogblitz]

Since Clowns stacked the box and rendered our best RB out of the game and make Josh beat them with the pass (good luck) I suspect the Fish to do the same and the Broncos the following week and the Cowboys on Thanksgiving. 

[Nihilarian]

6 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Please please please. Stop with the you cant run when the defense stacks the box. That is such a horrible excuse. SO many ways to attack this. Its ridiculous. Lucky for Adrian Peterson nobody thought of stacking the box or he would never even sniffed a 2K yard season. 

 

You can run it at them at anyway.

You can use formations that remove guys from the box.

You can use motion.

You can add more blockers to the box.

You can design runs away from the extra defender.

You can call the correct pass plays.

On and on and on.

What my earlier post pointed out was that Singletary was getting 7.0 yards per carry on his three rushes in the first half! So if the Browns were stacking the box it wasn't effective against "Motor"! 

 

19 passes vs 7 rushes in that first half. This against the #2 sack leader in the NFL with the Browns being #7 defense in passing yards allowed.  

 

Brian Daboll ran his offense "his way" without any consideration to what he was facing. So who is the failure in this game? The 2nd year QB with 19 games under his belt or the 6 year OC who is acting like a rookie who doesn't know how to set up an offense against a specific opponent. 

 

Its really kinda sad that first year HC who is one year removed from the Browns RB coach out foxed Brian Deboll. The 2-6 Browns beat the 6-2 Buffalo Bills because a moron is running the Bills offense. Its like Nathaniel Hackett never left! 

[BarleyNY]

15 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

So as the Bills OC, how would you scheme plays to minimize those issues while Allen develops ? 

If I’m the Bills OC I’m begging the FO to get me a competent starting NFL QB next season.  I’m not sure that Barkley can be any better than Allen, but I give him a shot if I do.  If not, then I am calling a more conservative passing game, I’m running RPOs and hoping Allen can hang onto the ball and I’m running more even if it’s into stacked boxes.  But that’s because I would’ve given up on Allen as a passer and as our QB beyond the very near term.

 

But if you haven’t given up on him and you think he can be the guy for the Bills, then you have to let him take his lumps and try to work out how to be an NFL QB.  That’s what the team is doing.  As much as I don’t believe in Allen I understand that they haven’t given up on him and, therefore, that is what they’re doing.  Allen hasn’t come around (yet?) and the team is tailing off from their encouraging start.  That’s getting fans upset and a bunch of them are looking to blame everyone but they guy whose fault it is.  But maybe, just maybe, he does come around and maybe there isn’t really a lot to lose by finding out.

 

Let’s face it - if Allen doesn’t get more accurate and if he can’t beat man coverage, then he’s never going to be a starting caliber NFL QB.  (This isn’t the toughest thing a QB will have to do.)  If the Bills want to see if he can be “the guy” then they need to give him the chance like in Cleveland.  If and when they’re done with him, then they can take the ball out of his hand and try to find a way to get through the season.

[Boatdrinks]

35 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

If I’m the Bills OC I’m begging the FO to get me a competent starting NFL QB next season.  I’m not sure that Barkley can be any better than Allen, but I give him a shot if I do.  If not, then I am calling a more conservative passing game, I’m running RPOs and hoping Allen can hang onto the ball and I’m running more even if it’s into stacked boxes.  But that’s because I would’ve given up on Allen as a passer and as our QB beyond the very near term.

 

But if you haven’t given up on him and you think he can be the guy for the Bills, then you have to let him take his lumps and try to work out how to be an NFL QB.  That’s what the team is doing.  As much as I don’t believe in Allen I understand that they haven’t given up on him and, therefore, that is what they’re doing.  Allen hasn’t come around (yet?) and the team is tailing off from their encouraging start.  That’s getting fans upset and a bunch of them are looking to blame everyone but they guy whose fault it is.  But maybe, just maybe, he does come around and maybe there isn’t really a lot to lose by finding out.

 

Let’s face it - if Allen doesn’t get more accurate and if he can’t beat man coverage, then he’s never going to be a starting caliber NFL QB.  (This isn’t the toughest thing a QB will have to do.)  If the Bills want to see if he can be “the guy” then they need to give him the chance like in Cleveland.  If and when they’re done with him, then they can take the ball out of his hand and try to find a way to get through the season.

So you would just draft a QB in the first round every year, give them each about 20 games before moving on to the next guy. Hopefully, you’d get a winning lottery ticket that can do it all out of the gate before being fired. It hasn’t happened yet with Allen and maybe never will, but I’d guess they stick with him until the end of 2020 season. After that, probably big changes again and maybe Beane gets one more shot to find QB gold or it’s a new GM. 

[Nihilarian]

Should the Bills OC continue to go pass happy when the Bills are down by any amount of points as he did most of last season and against the Browns this past Sunday. I have my doubts that the 2019 Bills will win another game. Anything less then the playoffs at this point (6-3) this OC needs to go! Should the Bills lose the next two I hope they fire Daboll and promote Ken Dorsey before Dallas. 

 

Against Washington, 39 rushes 20 passes, WIN!

 

Against Cleveland, 20 rushes, 41 passes, LOSS! 

 

Browns HC Freddie Kitchens realized that if the Browns got the lead it would cause Daboll to go pass happy into the teeth of his defense...and Daboll did exactly that.  

 

I think the overall consensus from Bills fans is that the Bills should run more and pass less! 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

 

They don't call him motor for nothin.

 

...so we have a potential "8 Cylinder Star" lead by a "Two Stroke Briggs & Stratton OC"....we should go REAL far..............

[Meatloaf63]

1 hour ago, ngbills said:

Please please please. Stop with the you cant run when the defense stacks the box. That is such a horrible excuse. SO many ways to attack this. Its ridiculous. Lucky for Adrian Peterson nobody thought of stacking the box or he would never even sniffed a 2K yard season. 

 

You can run it at them at anyway.

You can use formations that remove guys from the box.

You can use motion.

You can add more blockers to the box.

You can design runs away from the extra defender.

You can call the correct pass plays.

On and on and on.

This would mean you would actually have to be able to make in game adjustments, have a plan to use your players to their best abilities, you know play to their strengths,  think you might be asking for a little to much here.

[ndirish1978]

I'm over Daboll. He's clearly screwed us several times.

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

Since Clowns stacked the box and rendered our best RB out of the game and make Josh beat them with the pass (good luck) I suspect the Fish to do the same and the Broncos the following week and the Cowboys on Thanksgiving. 

And every team in the league against any team with a QB worse than Allen.

 

Now what does that say? Either Allen is awful or every team should be able to shut down nearly every other team in the league. 

 

No. Allen is not playing great but also not the worst QB in the league. However our OC is awful and has no idea how to adjust or use his players skillsets. 

[Teddy KGB]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

If I’m the Bills OC I’m begging the FO to get me a competent starting NFL QB next season.    

 

 

[starrymessenger]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

Browns are below average against both the pass and run.  DVOA for passing defense ranks them 19th and their DVOA for rushing defense ranks them 22nd.  Hardly a big difference.  They were also stacking the box against the run.  It’s good to know the real situation.  I’d love my main point addressed.  Why are people advocating running Singletary into a stacked box as the solution while leaving unaddressed Allen’s issues throwing against man coverage or man with a single high safety?  Why is the former the issue and not the latter?

 

The fact that Cleveland's pass D can be vulnerable  (given the injuries in their secondary) doesn't alter the fact that all other things being equal opposing teams have chosen primarily to exploit their run D. There is a reason for this. They are ranked 7th in pass D and 27th against the run. And to assume that there is no alternative but to pass against a stacked box is of course incorrect. If eight in the box was enuf to undo a run heavy offence Roman would be out of a job and Lamar would be selling insurance. Bill B stacked the box against the Ravens. He even went to a nine man front on occasion. Lamar ran for about 70 yards. Ingram ran for a buck and a half. And  stacking the box exposes the D to big plays in the run game if the ball carrier gets to the second level. Typically there is only one safety left upfield. We see Lamar exploit this occasionally on long runs. Without getting into detail suffice it to say that are a number of strategies and techniques available to run heavy teams to beat a loaded front. So although stacking the box also gives an offence the possibility of using eg play action and other strategies in the passing game it does not in every case require it, and especially not exclusively. So running a back like Singletary into a stacked box can be a solution, or at least a partial solution.

But I suspect you know this and in any case that's not your point. Your point is that because the Bills tried to pass and Josh didn't do to the Browns what  Garropolo or Rodgers with their supporting cast would have done we need to move on from him. Well Josh played reasonably well. He made some truly big boy throws. He made some pre-snap misreads as well no doubt. He remains a talented prospect who has shown some progression in areas of his game that needed to improve. 

Sam Darnold was publicly humiliated by Bill B. He was completely mystified by the Pats blitz packages. Belichick would never have employed this strategy against say Rodgers or Brees. Should the Jets move on from Darnold?

[BarleyNY]

16 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

So you would just draft a QB in the first round every year, give them each about 20 games before moving on to the next guy. Hopefully, you’d get a winning lottery ticket that can do it all out of the gate before being fired. It hasn’t happened yet with Allen and maybe never will, but I’d guess they stick with him until the end of 2020 season. After that, probably big changes again and maybe Beane gets one more shot to find QB gold or it’s a new GM. 

Don’t put words in my mouth.  It really depends on the QB and the situation.  It is fair to say that if, after two full seasons in the NFL and 20+ starts, a QB can’t effectively do rudimentary parts of his job and sits comfortably among back ups in his overall performance, I would look to replace him as starter.  Do you disagree?  That would hold true for any starter by the way. 

 

It’s better to move on from mistakes sooner rather than later.  If Allen doesn’t improve this year, do you really think the light will go on in this offseason?  Do you want to bet 2020 on that possibility?  I sure don’t. 

[colin]

16 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

 

The fact that Cleveland's pass D can be vulnerable  (given the injuries in their secondary) doesn't alter the fact that all other things being equal opposing teams have chosen primarily to exploit their run D. There is a reason for this. They are ranked 7th in pass D and 27th against the run. And to assume that there is no alternative but to pass against a stacked box is of course incorrect. If eight in the box was enuf to undo a run heavy offence Roman would be out of a job and Lamar would be selling insurance. Bill B stacked the box against the Ravens. He even went to a nine man front on occasion. Lamar ran for about 70 yards. Ingram ran for a buck and a half. And  stacking the box exposes the D to big plays in the run game if the ball carrier gets to the second level. Typically there is only one safety left upfield. We see Lamar exploit this occasionally on long runs. Without getting into detail suffice it to say that are a number of strategies and techniques available to run heavy teams to beat a loaded front. So although stacking the box also gives an offence the possibility of using eg play action and other strategies in the passing game it does not in every case require it, and especially not exclusively. So running a back like Singletary into a stacked box can be a solution, or at least a partial solution.

But I suspect you know this and in any case that's not your point. Your point is that because the Bills tried to pass and Josh didn't do to the Browns what  Garropolo or Rodgers with their supporting cast would have done we need to move on from him. Well Josh played reasonably well. He made some truly big boy throws. He made some pre-snap misreads as well no doubt. He remains a talented prospect who has shown some progression in areas of his game that needed to improve. 

Sam Darnold was publicly humiliated by Bill B. He was completely mystified by the Pats blitz packages. Belichick would never have employed this strategy against say Rodgers or Brees. Should the Jets move on from Darnold?

 

 

looool.

 

they put 8 in the box, we have to throw deep timing routes to beasley vs an over load blitz, IT'S WHAT ANALYTICS TELLS US TO DO!

 

some of the ***** around these dorky takes are just insane.  

[Boatdrinks]

20 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Don’t put words in my mouth.  It really depends on the QB and the situation.  It is fair to say that if, after two full seasons in the NFL and 20+ starts, a QB can’t effectively do rudimentary parts of his job and sits comfortably among back ups in his overall performance, I would look to replace him as starter.  Do you disagree?  That would hold true for any starter by the way. 

 

It’s better to move on from mistakes sooner rather than later.  If Allen doesn’t improve this year, do you really think the light will go on in this offseason?  Do you want to bet 2020 on that possibility?  I sure don’t. 

I think he can continue to improve, but it depends on the overall picture at season’s end. If I had to conjure a guess, the Bills ( and most NFL teams) wouldn’t move on until after year 3 for a high draft pick QB. Barring a major decline, he’s here for 2020 season. Short of signing a proven NFL QB, they will go with that possibility over a rookie .They have a lot of cap room and another draft to add to the currently incomplete offense. A top WR, OT and possibly even TE should be added. If Allen flounders with a solid group of weapons around him, they will move on. I could be wrong of course. They could draft a QB in the next draft or even sign a FA. Just my best guess about what they will do. 

[BarleyNY]

16 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

 

The fact that Cleveland's pass D can be vulnerable  (given the injuries in their secondary) doesn't alter the fact that all other things being equal opposing teams have chosen primarily to exploit their run D. There is a reason for this. They are ranked 7th in pass D and 27th against the run. And to assume that there is no alternative but to pass against a stacked box is of course incorrect. If eight in the box was enuf to undo a run heavy offence Roman would be out of a job and Lamar would be selling insurance. Bill B stacked the box against the Ravens. He even went to a nine man front on occasion. Lamar ran for about 70 yards. Ingram ran for a buck and a half. And  stacking the box exposes the D to big plays in the run game if the ball carrier gets to the second level. Typically there is only one safety left upfield. We see Lamar exploit this occasionally on long runs. Without getting into detail suffice it to say that are a number of strategies and techniques available to run heavy teams to beat a loaded front. So although stacking the box also gives an offence the possibility of using eg play action and other strategies in the passing game it does not in every case require it, and especially not exclusively. So running a back like Singletary into a stacked box can be a solution, or at least a partial solution.

But I suspect you know this and in any case that's not your point. Your point is that because the Bills tried to pass and Josh didn't do to the Browns what  Garropolo or Rodgers with their supporting cast would have done we need to move on from him. Well Josh played reasonably well. He made some truly big boy throws. He made some pre-snap misreads as well no doubt. He remains a talented prospect who has shown some progression in areas of his game that needed to improve. 

Sam Darnold was publicly humiliated by Bill B. He was completely mystified by the Pats blitz packages. Belichick would never have employed this strategy against say Rodgers or Brees. Should the Jets move on from Darnold?

Just going to hit some points here:

 

- DVOA is a much better gauge of performance than yards or points for offense and defense. You seem knowledgeable enough to know this but have chosen to pretend otherwise to try to make your point. 

 

- Whether or not it would’ve been a viable strategy to run Singletary a lot more against Cleveland’s stacked box is pretty irrelevant to the main point here.  We can debate whether that would’ve worked all day, but thats not the issue.  
 

- The real issue is that doing so should not have been necessary.  It’s that Allen could not beat simple, undisguised man coverage.  This wasn’t Allen getting beaten by Belichick, it was him being beaten by a bad DC running a basic scheme that he’s seen since high school.  And if it had been some bad reads here and there against a tougher scheme I wouldn’t have an issue.  But he just couldn’t make the throws.  I don’t see how that improves and I don’t want to waste another season watching it happen again. 
 

- Lastly, people keep saying he’s improving.  I see a few areas where he has, but overall he is still poor and it’s about exactly as poor as last season. I’d guess that a big reason for that is that teams have learned how to play him.  Let’s take a look.  His Total QBR has dropped from 52.0 in ‘18 to 36.0 this season. His Defense Adjusted Value Over Average (DVOA) went up from -35.9% to -23.0%.  That’s still terrible for a starting QB.  There have been 41 QBs this season that have performed better according to that statistic.  So if he really is improving overall, it’s not by nearly enough.  If he doesn’t make a big jump during the rest of this season I think the Bills should look for an upgrade. 
 

 https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb/2019

3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

I think he can continue to improve, but it depends on the overall picture at season’s end. If I had to conjure a guess, the Bills ( and most NFL teams) wouldn’t move on until after year 3 for a high draft pick QB. Barring a major decline, he’s here for 2020 season. Short of signing a proven NFL QB, they will go with that possibility over a rookie .They have a lot of cap room and another draft to add to the currently incomplete offense. A top WR, OT and possibly even TE should be added. If Allen flounders with a solid group of weapons around him, they will move on. I could be wrong of course. They could draft a QB in the next draft or even sign a FA. Just my best guess about what they will do. 

I think that was true in the past, but that the rookie salary cap has made it easier to move on from high picks.  Still, you might be right. 

[Boatdrinks]

3 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Just going to hit some points here:

 

- DVOA is a much better gauge of performance than yards or points for offense and defense. You seem knowledgeable enough to know this but have chosen to pretend otherwise to try to make your point. 

 

- Whether or not it would’ve been a viable strategy to run Singletary a lot more against Cleveland’s stacked box is pretty irrelevant to the main point here.  We can debate whether that would’ve worked all day, but thats not the issue.  
 

- The real issue is that doing so should not have been necessary.  It’s that Allen could not beat simple, undisguised man coverage.  This wasn’t Allen getting beaten by Belichick, it was him being beaten by a bad DC running a basic scheme that he’s seen since high school.  And if it had been some bad reads here and there against a tougher scheme I wouldn’t have an issue.  But he just couldn’t make the throws.  I don’t see how that improves and I don’t want to waste another season watching it happen again. 
 

- Lastly, people keep saying he’s improving.  I see a few areas where he has, but overall he is still poor and it’s about exactly as poor as last season. I’d guess that a big reason for that is that teams have learned how to play him.  Let’s take a look.  His Total QBR has dropped from 52.0 in ‘18 to 36.0 this season. His Defense Adjusted Value Over Average (DVOA) went up from -35.9% to -23.0%.  That’s still terrible for a starting QB.  There have been 41 QBs this season that have performed better according to that statistic.  So if he really is improving overall, it’s not by nearly enough.  If he doesn’t make a big jump during the rest of this season I think the Bills should look for an upgrade. 
 

 https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb/2019

I think that was true in the past, but that the rookie salary cap has made it easier to move on from high picks.  Still, you might be right. 

It’s easier, but that’s only part of the equation. Bills do have tons of cap room. Allen haters are convinced that he’s not the guy, but I’m not certain the Bills ( or any NFL team for that matter) would cut bait so quickly. I think he probably gets a third year. 

[BarleyNY]

4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

It’s easier, but that’s only part of the equation. Bills do have tons of cap room. Allen haters are convinced that he’s not the guy, but I’m not certain the Bills ( or any NFL team for that matter) would cut bait so quickly. I think he probably gets a third year. 

If you call me a hater, then I get to call you a fanboi. Thems the rules.

 

I guess we will find out, but Rosen, Lynch and Manziel tell me it’s a real possibility.

[Boatdrinks]

Just now, BarleyNY said:

If you call me a hater, then I get to call you a fanboi. Thems the rules.

 

I guess we will find out, but Rosen, Lynch and Manziel tell me it’s a real possibility.

Where did I call you a hater? I’m far from a fanboy. Just guessing what the team might realistically do. Of course it’s a possibility ;there are still 7 regular season games left. Those QBs you mentioned performed far worse than Allen. I would have moved on too.