Jason Whitlock may be on to something..

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

There are countless athletes in the NFL who feel their faith was a big part of helping them overcome obstacles in their lives to reach the NFL - as well as continuing to play a big part in who they are. So, I think there are numerous people in the NFL that would disagree with you.

 

Isn't that a point I was referencing?   Which FAITH? 

 

Why are one mans prayers answered with a Victory but not the others. 

 

Religion does not belong as part of the NFL.  

I am sorry if you disagree.  

 

Don't begrudge me because of my opinion.  

 

[Olympus]

2 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

One personality trait that is desirable in a Christian (IMHO) is rigidly adhering to the tenets of the faith, even if cultural trends, change some of those tenets from popular to unpopular.   I think the most successful coaches have been pretty flexible and changing things as their talent changes.   One concern I have with McDermott is that he has a "system" and wants talent to fit the system, and is not really able to optimize his approach to the game to fit the talent available. 

 

I think this just comes down to what your opinion is on how to build a football team. Personally, I don't think you change your concepts to fit your players, I think you put the players you have in your concepts, and if they don't fit than you get new players. I think the purge of the likes of Gilmore, Watkins, Glenn, Preston Brown, Darby, etc. etc. was a great early example of this. Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott took a year of looking mediocre in order to build a team that adhered to their rigid faith (in the Buffalo Bills).

[PlayoffsPlease]

2 minutes ago, Olympus said:

I think this just comes down to what your opinion is on how to build a football team. Personally, I don't think you change your concepts to fit your players, I think you put the players you have in your concepts, and if they don't fit than you get new players. I think the purge of the likes of Gilmore, Watkins, Glenn, Preston Brown, Darby, etc. etc. was a great early example of this. Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott took a year of looking mediocre in order to build a team that adhered to their rigid faith (in the Buffalo Bills).

Recent history of the teams that actually win Super Bowls, (Patriots, Seahawks  Eagles, Ravens) is a who is who of coaches who adapt their system to their talent.  The current glairng exmaple is John Harbaugh tossed aside a former super bowl winning QB who was a protype pocket passer and replaced the entire offensive scheme to fit a QB that is entirely different in style.  Seems to be working. 

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Isn't that a point I was referencing?   Which FAITH? 

 

Why are one mans prayers answered with a Victory but not the others. 

 

Religion does not belong as part of the NFL.  

I am sorry if you disagree.  

 

Don't begrudge me because of my opinion.  

 

 

I don't begrudge you your opinion. Each person has a right to adhere to whatever religious belief they choose and are entiltled to display it in whatever manner they choose. It is an integral part of many athletes and coaches in the NFL. So, it is aas much in the NFL as in any other aspect of life. Whether you think it should be or shouldn't be.

 

I also think that when you go out of your way to denigrate people who have a strong religious faith, you are as small minded as what you believe those people to be.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I don't begrudge you your opinion. Each person has a right to adhere to whatever religious belief they choose and are entiltled to display it in whatever manner they choose. It is an integral part of many athletes and coaches in the NFL. So, it is aas much in the NFL as in any other aspect of life. Whether you think it should be or shouldn't be.

 

I also think that when you go out of your way to denigrate people who have a strong religious faith, you are as small minded as what you believe those people to be.

 

Who did I denigrate?  the guy in the video clip?

Tebow? 

 

I don't even want to acknowledge what was written by the north remembers

 

IMO -   This thread belongs in the PPP.  

[billsfan1959]

Just now, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Who did I denigrate?  the guy in the video clip?

Tebow? 

 

I don't even want to acknowledge what was written by the north remembers

 

IMO -   This thread belongs in the PPP.  

 

 

I am not a fan of snide comments on either side. 

 

And, you are right, when the discussion in this thread becomes soley about religion, rather than an intellectual discussion about what role it may or may not play with individuals in the NFL, particularly with the Bills, then it should be in the PPP.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I am not a fan of snide comments on either side. 

 

And, you are right, when the discussion in this thread becomes soley about religion, rather than an intellectual discussion about what role it may or may not play with individuals in the NFL, particularly with the Bills, then it should be in the PPP.

I am not trying to be rude or offensive 

 

I was expecting some real inside info so lets say I was a bit disappointed with the misdirect. 

[BuffaloRebound]

I think point Whitlock was trying to make is if you’re gonna go chasing a prototype, better to chase guys who are Christian conservatives than these QB gurus.  But in the end you shouldn’t go chasing prototypes of any kind.

  You gotta be a good coach and you gotta be authentic.  I doubt Belichik has ever talked about god to his players.  Wouldn’t be surprised if the guy is an atheist.  He doesn’t seem like a particularly good human being, but he’s a great coach and he’s authentic.  

Edited November 6, 2019 by BuffaloRebound

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

2 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

sorry  What a waste of time even skipping 10 minutes 

 

I should have read the hashtag and known

 

God and faith has nothing to do with football.  Just ask Tim Tebow.  

 

Tim Tebow was pretty damn successful. What have you done?  Lets compare it to Tim Tebow.  Tim played big time college ball, big time pro ball, big time baseball, and works some with ESPN.  Boy, if I had to ASK Tim Tebow I would think he would say God inspired him to be the man he is and I bet he thanks him for every accomplishment he ever achieved.  IMO God and faith not only has something to do with football but he has everything to do with life.  Just my 2 cents...  Totally not a waste of time, good video and I appreciate you having the guts to post this Protocal69 because you know half the fans who have an issue with faith are going to bash you.  

[Kirby Jackson]

I think that this team cares about one another. I don’t think that it has anything to do with their religious beliefs, political beliefs or anything like that. It has to do with building a roster of high character individuals and getting to know one another on a deeper level. He’s made a point for the players to get to know the rest of the room on a personal level. Where did they come from? What makes them tick? What is their family like? These guys have a trust and respect for one another. They battle together. They aren’t united because of their religious beliefs; they are united because they care about the people in the room. Those things aren’t interchangeable.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Kirby Jackson

[K-9]

So atheists can’t be good coaches? 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, eball said:

Forget about religion.  Schlereth hit the nail on the head.  When the players believe that the coach truly cares about them, you have a true leader.  Religion or "faith" is just a vehicle.

 

And yes, I believe McD is such a coach.

I do think McDermott is a really good DC and a very good man. I do think the culture thing gets completely overrated. We had a good culture under Jauron and Gailey.  Plenty of bad teams have had a good culture. So yes while it is much better to have a good culture, talent and good coaching is what ultimately matters. Belichick is a Richard and he is arguably the greatest coach ever.

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

Just now, BuffaloRebound said:

I think point Whitlock was trying to make is if you’re gonna go chasing a prototype, better to chase guys who are Christian conservatives than these QB gurus.  But in the end you shouldn’t go chasing prototypes of any kind.

  You gotta be a good coach and you gotta be authentic.  I doubt Belichik has ever talked about god to his players.  Wouldn’t be surprised if the guy is an atheist.  Ge doesn’t seem like a particularly good human being, but he’s a great coach and he’s authentic.  

You might be right about Belichik, have no idea about his faith and no you don't have to talk about God when coaching; just because you are a Christain doesn't mean you have to bible thump but it will show in the way you treat people. Marv Levy was a believer but he wasn't a bible thumper.  His faith did show in the way he respected and treated his staff and players.  I don't think you have to be a Christian to be a good coach but I do think relationship building is huge when you want to have sustained success.  You can see why players love playing for guys like Levy, Reich, Gibbs, and Dungy.

[SoTier]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I do think McDermott is a really good DC and a very good man. I do think the culture thing gets completely overrated. We had a good culture under Jauron and Gailey.  Plenty of bad teams have had a good culture. So yes while it is much better to have a good culture, talent and good coaching is what ultimately matters. Belichick is a Richard and he is arguably the greatest coach ever.

 

Game. Set. Match.  

[row_33]

2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Religion is one of mankind’s oldest ways to unite, galvanize and Sheppard people.

 

Religious people by definition are willing to put their faith and belief in something (that no matter what you belive isn’t easy to prove) and those same people allow the rules of that construct dictate their habits and lives. That probably coincides with very coachable team oriented personalities. 

 

 

 

yeah, not a single great in the Hall of Fame was a believer....

 

wake up

 

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

So atheists can’t be good coaches? 

As someone who is religious, I hate when people try to push it into things that it shouldn’t be like sports and politics.  I used to pray for the Bills to win (and they actually used to more so ?). But I realized there were so many more important things than that. 

[row_33]

and if you don't want to believe, what gives you the right to interfere with someone who does believe?

 

 

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

So atheists can’t be good coaches? 

They can be for sure.  

[Seasons1992]

2 minutes ago, row_33 said:

and if you don't want to BILLEVE, what gives you the right to interfere with someone who does BILLEVE?

 

 

 

Interfering, and fixed.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, Protocal69 said:

I don't always agree with Whitlock but he might have just sealed it for me that McDermott is the coach to lead us to the top and Whitlock doesn't even know it.

Listen at the 11:10 mark if the video is not coded at that mark.Mark Schlereth took it home. All I could think of was McDermott. I think they are right.

 

 #Keepthefaith

Also, Whitlock has become a joke. I can guess his “take” on 95% of what he says.  He takes the contrarian point of view to be like Skip Bayless.  He is the same dude who loves strip clubs.  I think religion is a personal thing but nothing drives me crazier than people who are religious hypocrites.  

 

Sadly, some people don’t realize some figures completely pander to their religious beliefs.  Religion can be awesome.  Just keep it private. 

[Pokebball]

2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Religion is one of mankind’s oldest ways to unite, galvanize and Sheppard people.

 

Religious people by definition are willing to put their faith and belief in something (that no matter what you belive isn’t easy to prove) and those same people allow the rules of that construct dictate their habits and lives. That probably coincides with very coachable team oriented personalities. 

 

 

Dictate or influence?

[K-9]

11 minutes ago, Offside#76FredSmerlas said:

You might be right about Belichik, have no idea about his faith and no you don't have to talk about God when coaching; just because you are a Christain doesn't mean you have to bible thump but it will show in the way you treat people. Marv Levy was a believer but he wasn't a bible thumper.  His faith did show in the way he respected and treated his staff and players.  I don't think you have to be a Christian to be a good coach but I do think relationship building is huge when you want to have sustained success.  You can see why players love playing for guys like Levy, Reich, Gibbs, and Dungy.

That’s lucky for Marv then, because he’s Jewish.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Protocal69 said:

I don't always agree with Whitlock but he might have just sealed it for me that McDermott is the coach to lead us to the top and Whitlock doesn't even know it.

Listen at the 11:10 mark if the video is not coded at that mark.Mark Schlereth took it home. All I could think of was McDermott. I think they are right.

 

 #Keepthefaith

 

Who is the former player on the L?  played for Joe Gibbs and the Redskins in 1992 and told the anecdote about crutching around and being called into Gibbs office and told "If you feel you need to have surgery, you're jeopardizing your career, you go ahead and have surgery but I want you to know I appreciate what you're doing for this team"
 

He is exactly right - if a leader clearly and consistently demonstrates that he sincerely cares about the people he leads, and fosters an atmosphere of caring and concern in the organization, add in a good competence at the position and that takes you miles.

 

I don't think that "Christian" and "Conservative" are the key.  But I do think a lot of the hot young minds coming up through the league got all in the X's and O's and never learned the people skills or formed the genuine connections with people that lead to sincere caring.  Being involved in a church or serving in the military make the latter more likely.  Gase's story with his wife post-partum "You Good?" and going off to meet with Peyton Manning just shows he's a jerk.

 

I forget which commentator it was, but during a Vikes game one of them told an anecdote about Zimmer asking a player "how are you feeling?" The player responded "I'm sore" and Zimmer's response was "No one cares".  The announcer laughed and played it as a positive attribute of Zimmer being tough but my take was "What a Maroon".  Yeah, football is a tough game and the team needs the key players to go hard all season and by mid season everyone will be feeling sore and dinged up if not injured.  But why ask then if you don't care?  And if you did ask and get this answer why not say look the guy in the eyes and say something sincere, but acknowledging and positive like "I just want you to know I appreciate what you're doing for the team" if the player is going hard and contributing, or "I just want you to know that it's noticed when you leave it all out there on Sunday."

 

Edit: Schlereth, I get it now.

[Dablitzkrieg]

Don't push your beliefs on me please is all I ask

Edited November 6, 2019 by Dablitzkrieg

[Malazan]

3 hours ago, JinxedBill said:

Culture is everything.  Culture is the word your looking for.  Just my 2 cents.

 

You mean process?

[Happy]

35 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Don't push your beliefs on me because I don't give a ***** what you believe in.

 

Then it's off to the Browns or Jets with you.

[C.Biscuit97]

38 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Don't push your beliefs on me because I don't give a ***** what you believe in.

What makes football great is a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds become brothers.  

[stony]

2 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Tim Tebow was supposed to be born with such deformities his parents were told to abort him.   Id say he did ok and faith played a huge part in how fair he made it with limited ability.  He was an incredible leader.

Damn, I didn't know that.  Makes sense why he could never throw a spiral.  

[416BillsFan]

3 hours ago, Tcali said:

ernest angely)

Tim Tebow had tons of talent---Just not at QB. Ive seen High School QBs with much stronger arms

He coulda been a pro bowl TE or Fullback.

I refer to Taysom Hill as "Tim Tebow who knows his place"

[Happy]

58 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I do think McDermott is a really good DC and a very good man. I do think the culture thing gets completely overrated. We had a good culture under Jauron and Gailey.  Plenty of bad teams have had a good culture. So yes while it is much better to have a good culture, talent and good coaching is what ultimately matters. Belichick is a Richard and he is arguably the greatest coach ever.

 

Belichick, while probably not religious and not having a faith based environment in NE, has built a culture.  "Do you job" is accountability and contributes to a culture; you're accountable to the guy next to you.  While I would believe a good number of guys in NE wouldn't step in traffic for Belichick, they do appreciate what he does and respect him.  The players know they are part of something bigger than themselves and team is stressed before self.  If you think about it, the Patriots believe in second chances, so Belichick would be more religious than McD...I know, a stretch.  Think about it - would the Bills bring in AB, Josh Gordon, or Randy Moss?  How about Albert Haynesworth or Michael Bennett?  True, not all worked out (mostly the player's fault and not the organizations), but they got a second (or third) chance.  The Pats bring in players who they know have the ability to fit their system and not force a square peg in a round hole.  Culture is just a belief system and particular way of how something is done, and "The Patriot Way" is an example of culture.  So culture is not completely overrated, just what type of culture you have makes all the difference.

 

I'm sure all the typically good teams have some sort of culture - 49ers, Seahawks, Steelers, for example.  Then there are teams like the Browns and Jets; what is the culture there?  I doubt the Browns have any; building a roster based on big name talent won't work.

 

Agree with what you said about McDermott.  Jauron was a good man and DB coach.  Gailey is a good man and OC.  The last two were not good head coaches and did not bring in enough talent.  McD is bringing in talent, though thus far he is too conservative a HC leading to coaching "not to lose" which just makes you lose against good teams.  It is also how he is using the talent which can be questioned - his scheme; lots of debates on this board about the topic.  So the Bills are building a good culture, where they didn't have one previously, but coaching is still evolving, IMO.  So culture matters, but McD's coaching philosophy will have to mature to be able to maintain, and grow, the culture he is building as well as find and retain talent.  If it does not, well, no one likes losing and talent will want to move on.

 

[Kirby Jackson]

17 minutes ago, 416BillsFan said:

I refer to Taysom Hill as "Tim Tebow who knows his place"

Tebow runs a 4.71. Taysom runs a 4.44.  Tebow is a good athlete. Taysom is a great athlete.

[LeGOATski]

Very self-righteous. Whitlock tried to equate culture-bred success to his personal religion. 

 

Schlereth made the correct point. It's just about building a team-first culture. 

[Mikey152]

It basically boils down to a boss v. leader.

 

Bosses manage a team, and leaders inspire them.  How they go about doing that (ie faith, hard work, caring, even fear, etc...) is generally less important than the end result.

 

That said, being a great leader is not enough...you have to know football, too, if you want to be truly great.

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I do think McDermott is a really good DC and a very good man. I do think the culture thing gets completely overrated. We had a good culture under Jauron and Gailey.  Plenty of bad teams have had a good culture. So yes while it is much better to have a good culture, talent and good coaching is what ultimately matters. Belichick is a Richard and he is arguably the greatest coach ever.

He seems to only be a Richard to the press, though...

[Poleshifter]

3 hours ago, blitzboy54 said:

 

Religious people also seem to go out of their way to pat themselves on the back for their faith.  I've met too many crappy people that use their faith as an example of why they are not crappy people. I have met too many people of faith that hate people that are different than them.  This thread will get shut down but I want to be on the record before it does that in my experience I have met more awful people that say God comes first than almost any other group.  

 

 

 

Amen, brother

 

[yungmack]

I am always suspicious of people who wear their religious beliefs on their sleeve. The 2 most successful coaches in Bills history were Lou Saban, a strong Catholic who never made an issue of it, and Marv Levy, a Jew who never made an issue of it. 

[BisonMan]

Just imagine what would happen if a team announced it was looking for a “Christian Conservative” as a head coach. The league would blow a gasket and the team would be immediately sued for discriminatory hiring practices. 

 

I’m pretty uncomfortable with people equating religious adherence (be it Christian or any other) with particularly good character quality. I know a lot of atheists who are very strong character people that don’t require religious beliefs to be good leaders. I also know a lot of conservative Christians who are openly racist and really horrible people. It’s great that religions often stress strong character in their teachings but too many (particularly in the Southern US) preach that faith is all that matters and your personal character is  secondary at best. 

 

I’ve also read and heard from NFL players that they were discriminated against during their careers because they were atheists. Chris Kluwe comes to mind, who sued the Vikings over his release after a conflict over his atheism with his ST coach. The NFL is predominantly made up of Christian players. They hold Christian prayer circles at the end of games. Anybody ever work in a company that has those? No other league does that. Unfortunately, Whitlock may be correct in that NFL players are more likely to “buy in” to an outwardly Christian coach because they are all from Evangelical backgrounds...and that’s a bad thing for any business.

 

My 2 cents.

[yungmack]

2 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

One personality trait that is desirable in a Christian (IMHO) is rigidly adhering to the tenets of the faith, even if cultural trends, change some of those tenets from popular to unpopular.   I think the most successful coaches have been pretty flexible and changing things as their talent changes.   One concern I have with McDermott is that he has a "system" and wants talent to fit the system, and is not really able to optimize his approach to the game to fit the talent available. 

 

I have to ask, Which faith? Even among Christians there are deep and profound differences about what "Christian" means. For example, the different rules and dogmas about divorce, homosexuality and even having ordained clergy. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, row_33 said:

 

yeah, not a single great in the Hall of Fame was a believer....

 

wake up

 

 

 

 

Ummmm- I’m commenting on why it’s a very common element in leadership strategy and why it can work. 

 

The Hall of fame probably has representation from every major religion on the planet, including all the ones that say your a bad person and destined for hell if you belive in one of the others. 

 

Whats the ‘woke’ point being made here? 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[BringBackOrton]

2 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I don't begrudge you your opinion. Each person has a right to adhere to whatever religious belief they choose and are entiltled to display it in whatever manner they choose. It is an integral part of many athletes and coaches in the NFL. So, it is aas much in the NFL as in any other aspect of life. Whether you think it should be or shouldn't be.

 

I also think that when you go out of your way to denigrate people who have a strong religious faith, you are as small minded as what you believe those people to be.

Rack em.

3 minutes ago, yungmack said:

I have to ask, Which faith? Even among Christians there are deep and profound differences about what "Christian" means. For example, the different rules and dogmas about divorce, homosexuality and even having ordained clergy. 

It doesn’t matter. All that matters is the capacity to believe. If you can believe in yourself and your teammates and your coaches. If you can have that intimate trust and confidence. That’s it.