Have You Started To Lose Faith in Josh Allen?

[Phil The Thrill]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

2 starts. Replacing Eli who was completely 1 dimensional, and barely had that dimension left. And teams have no film on Jones.

 

Jones isnt playing crazy, lights out QB. He's just a youth injection that his team is rallying around.

 

Once DCs get tape on him, he'll come back down to Earth. Just like Mayfield.

Maybe... but I see progression with Jones.  You saw it with Mayfield and Lamar.  I’m not seeing the same amount of progress with Josh.  He seems to be making the mistakes he made as “Bad Josh” last year

[PromoTheRobot]

3 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Unless you’re a fan of QB purgatory, that’s a terrible idea

 

How the heck is it QB purgatory giving Allen a breather?

Just now, Phil The Thrill said:

Maybe... but I see progression with Jones.  You saw it with Mayfield and Lamar.  I’m not seeing the same amount of progress with Josh.  He seems to be making the mistakes he made as “Bad Josh” last year

 

So why do you insist he get back out there?

[Phil The Thrill]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Your justification of your agenda is flat out insane......

 

They are NFL teams......they have losing records because WE GAVE THEM A LOSS....you have absolutely no idea how teams like say..the bengals are going to end up doing this year.

 

Also...this stupid remarks about not progressing....I have seen PLENTY of plays this year where Josh has thrown a ball away......or worked his short game....or stayed in the pocket intead of running (sometimes to his detriment) this year to say that he is not progressing......ENOUGH OF THAT

 

He had a bad game where he through 3 picks......he has put the ball on the ground in the first 4 games...he has also WON those games........

 

Just stupid...and right after a loss being 3 and 1 which make sit EVEN MORE STUPID

 

 

We won the game largely because the defense stopped opposing offenses from converting those turnovers into points.  You can’t dismiss that.

 

I don’t have an agenda other than saying I’m starting to wonder whether Allen will truly improve the way we want him to.  He just seems to revert back to Wyoming Josh - that’s not a good thing.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Maybe... but I see progression with Jones.  You saw it with Mayfield and Lamar.  I’m not seeing the same amount of progress with Josh.  He seems to be making the mistakes he made as “Bad Josh” last year

 

Exactly what progression are you seeing with Jones? Please cite plays and post clips.

 

What progression did you see from Mayfield who started hot and stayed hot, only to come back to Earth this year? Are you worried about his regression?

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Maybe... but I see progression with Jones.  You saw it with Mayfield and Lamar.  I’m not seeing the same amount of progress with Josh.  He seems to be making the mistakes he made as “Bad Josh” last year

That is because your blind

[Phil The Thrill]

2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

How the heck is it QB purgatory giving Allen a breather?

 

So why do you insist he get back out there?

Sitting a rookie QB never ends well.  If you are so concerned about his confidence - sending him to the bench because you don’t think he can beat a good defense is a terrible idea.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Phil The Thrill said:

We won the game largely because the defense stopped opposing offenses from converting those turnovers into points.  You can’t dismiss that.

 

I don’t have an agenda other than saying I’m starting to wonder whether Allen will truly improve the way we want him to.  He just seems to revert back to Wyoming Josh - that’s not a good thing.

Simple question....did Josh Allen take his offense down the field when points were needed at the end of games and win......

 

Stop dismissing the fact that Josh Allen plays his best ball when the game is on the line......lots of starting QBs save that time to make their mistakes.

 

Does defense keep us in games?   Yes that is how our team is biult.......we have 10 new starters on offense they are not going to be the best unit of our team right now.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Phil The Thrill said:

Sitting a rookie QB never ends well.  If you are so concerned about his confidence - sending him to the bench because you don’t think he can beat a good defense is a terrible idea.

 

You see progression.

 

In two games.

 

Can't make this crap up.

 

[njbuff]

I get why Bills fans are pushing the panic button with Allen.

 

It's the "here we go again" syndrome with a young Bills QB, a.k.a., Manuel, Edwards and Losman.

 

Allen did seem to turn the corner in the second half yesterday after a miserable first half, so there is that.

 

The Bills might actually have a strong running game with Gore and the returning Singletary, so can Allen become a game manager for this team before he becomes a franchise QB?

 

That is the big question now and one Daboll needs to find the answer to quickly.

[DrDawkinstein]

7 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Unless you’re a fan of QB purgatory, that’s a terrible idea

 

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

How the heck is it QB purgatory giving Allen a breather?

 

 

Seems folks (Phil) still dont understand what Whaley meant by the Bills being in "QB Purgatory".

 

He was referring to never truly hitting rock bottom and getting a top 3 overall pick to get a good QB. We were always finishing 6-10/8-8 and picking #12, #16 overall.

 

It was his way of saying "Fans dont want to tank, but you cant get a Franchise QB unless youre at the top of the draft".

 

[billsfan89]

6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I'm disappointed that Josh is creeping back. Especially when Dabol seems to be telling him the same stuff over and over and it's not sticking. He needs to sit a game and a bye.

You aren't going to learn decision making on the bench. Improved decision making is going to come from experience. Unless the trainers don't clear him out of concussion protocol there is no way in my mind that you don't start Josh. Josh has a lot of bad habits that are a result of his arm bailing him out throughout his career. 

 

But he has already improved his footwork (the other weak point of his game) significantly and he will only stand to make strides improving his decision making by being more exposed to game action and not from the bench. 

 

I think people are being overly reactionary to this game. Let's be honest the O-line was OK but did allow significant pressure at times and the receiving core while competent lacks a game breaking number one WR option. So it's not like Josh has all these great offensive weapons where even an average QB would be successful, this is a mid-levelish offensive supporting cast right now. Josh is of course going to have bad games. 

[Phil The Thrill]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Exactly what progression are you seeing with Jones? Please cite plays and post clips.

 

What progression did you see from Mayfield who started hot and stayed hot, only to come back to Earth this year? Are you worried about his regression?

Comparing Apples to baseballs here...

 

I hope Allen can play this weekend to see how he does against a good defense.  If he has a good game, I’ll feel more confident.  If we see Wyoming Josh I’ll continue to be skeptical 

[PromoTheRobot]

2 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Sitting a rookie QB never ends well.  If you are so concerned about his confidence - sending him to the bench because you don’t think he can beat a good defense is a terrible idea.

 

First he's not a rookie. Second he's still doing dumb stuff. Third he still does dumb stuff after his OC tells him not to do dumb stuff. Players get benched all the time. It's not the end of their careers. Especially when you make it clear why. If Allen can't handle that then he's the wrong guy.

2 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

You aren't going to learn decision making on the bench. Improved decision making is going to come from experience. Unless the trainers don't clear him out of concussion protocol there is no way in my mind that you don't start Josh. Josh has a lot of bad habits that are a result of his arm bailing him out throughout his career. 

 

But he has already improved his footwork (the other weak point of his game) significantly and he will only stand to make strides improving his decision making by being more exposed to game action and not from the bench. 

 

I think people are being overly reactionary to this game. Let's be honest the O-line was OK but did allow significant pressure at times and the receiving core while competent lacks a game breaking number one WR option. So it's not like Josh has all these great offensive weapons where even an average QB would be successful, this is a mid-levelish offensive supporting cast right now. Josh is of course going to have bad games. 

 

Well they can start teaching him how to throw a ball away.

[Chris66]

2 minutes ago, njbuff said:

I get why Bills fans are pushing the panic button with Allen.

 

It's the "here we go again" syndrome with a young Bills QB, a.k.a., Manuel, Edwards and Losman.

 

Allen did seem to turn the corner in the second half yesterday after a miserable first half, so there is that.

 

The Bills might actually have a strong running game with Gore and the returning Singletary, so can Allen become a game manager for this team before he becomes a franchise QB?

 

That is the big question now and one Daboll needs to find the answer to quickly.

The question os does Allen have the patience to be a game manager. It took Peyton Manning 8 seasons to finally just take what the defense gave him and he had way better mechanics and accuracy.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Nope, not at all. I expected this to happen with him. He'll be fine because he has what it takes.

 

Why does no one point out that there is another way of looking at the game? We should have won yesterday, and it took alot of things going against us for the Pats to win. Just think about that for a second, we outfirstdowned them, outgained them, were on our way to winning when Josh got hurt after adjusting at halftime etc......... And, it took 4 turnovers for the Pats to win. I think its safe to say this team is on the right track if Allen can stay healthy.

[BillsfanAZ]

6 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Maybe... but I see progression with Jones.  You saw it with Mayfield and Lamar.  I’m not seeing the same amount of progress with Josh.  He seems to be making the mistakes he made as “Bad Josh” last year

You do know that Mayfield has been below average the first three games of the season right? His only good game was this past weekend. Lamar Jackson had good games against defenses that teams have been rolling up points against. The Chiefs were his first good team to play and it wasnt a good game for him. 

[Buffalo716]

The only thing putrid I read was the OP

 

Holy crap .   no protection, WRs barely getting seperation, playcalling was meh and Allen had to play Superman to make anything work but he was the reason we lost

 

If Barkley played the remaining 12 we might win 1-2 games

 

We're going places if Allen stays healthy

10 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

First he's not a rookie. Second he's still doing dumb stuff. Third he still does dumb stuff after his OC tells him not to do dumb stuff. Players get benched all the time. It's not the end of their careers. Especially when you make it clear why. If Allen can't handle that then he's the wrong guy.

 

Well they can start teaching him how to throw a ball away.

You can't bench him for barkley PTR.

 

If you do that you might as well trade him because he's 20x the QB Barkley is at this moment and that will kill the team

[RyanC883]

16 minutes ago, njbuff said:

I get why Bills fans are pushing the panic button with Allen.

 

It's the "here we go again" syndrome with a young Bills QB, a.k.a., Manuel, Edwards and Losman.

 

Allen did seem to turn the corner in the second half yesterday after a miserable first half, so there is that.

 

The Bills might actually have a strong running game with Gore and the returning Singletary, so can Allen become a game manager for this team before he becomes a franchise QB?

 

That is the big question now and one Daboll needs to find the answer to quickly.

 

He has done this in several games.  Which is nice to see, halftime adjustments from your QB and OC.  

 

  He needs to play a complete 60 minutes.   I understand "getting in a rhythm," but perhaps you can do that without throwing 3 INT's and overthrowing wide-open WR's deep and under-throwing open WR's on shallow routes.  

[Flutie Flakes]

12 minutes ago, Heitz said:

 

I had some friends yesterday that said Josh had a lot of time in the pocket yesterday.  Did we watch the same game?  The online is better than last year, but still struggling at times...

 

 

And anyone that's giving up on a QB 4 games into his second season needs some perspective on achieving results.  Rome was not build in a day, kids.   

 

Interior o-line played well overall and our line was effective in the run game.  But it seemed that both Allen and Barkley were under pressure all day, especially from the edges.  Five sacks and multiple penalties (4 holding/3 false starts).  Pats* have a tough defense, but I have not been happy all season with our o-tackles, especially in pass protection.    

[Phil The Thrill]

18 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

You see progression.

 

In two games.

 

Can't make this crap up.

 

what are you talking about?  You can’t start a rookie/2nd year QB and then put him back on the bench after giving him the ball.  It’s a confidence killer 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

what are you talking about?  You can’t start a rookie/2nd year QB and then put him back on the bench after giving him the ball.  It’s a confidence killer 

 

You said upthread you've seen progression for Daniel Jones. In two games.

 

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

You are absolutely fukin hopeless.....if Josh didnt have the turnovers and had low passing yards...that would be the thing you are bitching about

 

Take a lap

Well he actually has both so not sure that is a good example...

[Phil The Thrill]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

The only thing putrid I read was the OP

 

Holy crap .   no protection, WRs barely getting seperation, playcalling was meh and Allen had to play Superman to make anything work but he was the reason we lost

 

If Barkley played the remaining 12 we might win 1-2 games

 

We're going places if Allen stays healthy

You can't bench him for barkley PTR.

 

If you do that you might as well trade him because he's 20x the QB Barkley is at this moment and that will kill the team

you do realize that the protection issues as you put it, are Allen’s fault the majority of the time.  He either doesn’t read the defense or holds onto the ball too long. 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, Phil The Thrill said:

you do realize that the protection issues as you put it, are Allen’s fault the majority of the time.  He either doesn’t read the defense or holds onto the ball too long. 

He hold the ball long plenty

 

But there were also free rushers in his face all day, off the edge coming untouched

 

Our interior had it's worst day of the season

 

And the WRs were not getting constant seperation forcing Josh to hold the ball

 

If there were dudes running wide open all day and Josh was not getting touched in the pocket I'd say he was awful.. but none of that happened

[oldmanfan]

43 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

How do you explain the success of a player like Daniel Jones?  In just a few starts, he is elevating the entire offense.

 

How much time should we give Allen?  5 years?  6 years?

 

If he’s any good we should see progress soon.  And “progress” was not what we saw yesterday 

Allen came out and destroyed Minnesota in one of his first games, did he not?  Young QBs have ups and downs.  Jones will too.  Allen has a down yesterday.  Leading three victories up to yesterday were ups.

[Bangarang]

30 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

First he's not a rookie. Second he's still doing dumb stuff. Third he still does dumb stuff after his OC tells him not to do dumb stuff. Players get benched all the time. It's not the end of their careers. Especially when you make it clear why. If Allen can't handle that then he's the wrong guy.

If Allen is healthy enough to play then he should be playing. If he can’t learn from these mistakes then he’s not going to last long. I don’t see how benching him for a clearly inferior QB helps him or this team.

[Augie]

Not at all. I said there would be some serious bumps in the road, and that was one of them. Atrocious play, but not shocking to me. Belichick does that to young QB’s - you live and, hopefully, you learn. There was a lot to learn from there.  I’ve been hopeful, but have yet to be completely sold. I remain hopeful. 

[Phil The Thrill]

Just now, Joe in Winslow said:

 

You said upthread you've seen progression for Daniel Jones. In two games.

 

Sure, they are 2-0 with him as QB including a convincing win versus a bad Washington team.  He’s providing a spark and making the overall offense better.  This is what you want to see from a new QB.  Not 3 INT’s

[ngbills]

Can everyone agree that Allen had a bad bay? Some people seem to argue that he did not or that it was other peoples fault. Yes, you expect a young QB to struggle vs BB; but he had an atrocious game. No defending it nor is defending it needed. The hope is we have a QB that can go toe to toe with BB. 

[Phil The Thrill]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Allen came out and destroyed Minnesota in one of his first games, did he not?  Young QBs have ups and downs.  Jones will too.  Allen has a down yesterday.  Leading three victories up to yesterday were ups.

But did he really “lead” them to 3 victories.  When he needed to, he came through.  You can’t take that away from him.

 

But you can also argue that it was the defense that led the team to victories.  Allen has moved the ball at QB which is good, but between his INT’s, fumbles, or sacks, he’s also taking points off the board.  He did this in 3 out of 4 games - you can’t say that this is not a concern

2 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Can everyone agree that Allen had a bad bay? Some people seem to argue that he did not or that it was other peoples fault. Yes, you expect a young QB to struggle vs BB; but he had an atrocious game. No defending it nor is defending it needed. The hope is we have a QB that can go toe to toe with BB. 

And we might have one....but my point is - we have to stop seeing some of the negative plays we saw yesterday.  The decision making, mistakes, and poor decisions need to stop at some point 

[Phil The Thrill]

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Allen came out and destroyed Minnesota in one of his first games, did he not?  Young QBs have ups and downs.  Jones will too.  Allen has a down yesterday.  Leading three victories up to yesterday were ups.

He didn’t really destroy them.  He made some plays with his legs and made some great passes where WR’s were schemes open.  But that was a good game for a rookie QB.

 

Yesterday's game wasn’t just bad.... it was atrocious 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Phil The Thrill said:

But did he really “lead” them to 3 victories.  When he needed to, he came through.  You can’t take that away from him.

 

But you can also argue that it was the defense that led the team to victories.  Allen has moved the ball at QB which is good, but between his INT’s, fumbles, or sacks, he’s also taking points off the board.  He did this in 3 out of 4 games - you can’t say that this is not a concern

When he needed to, he came through. There’s your answer.  

 

He needs to play better overall.  I say this repeatedly:  the biggest thing for young QBs is to get the game to slow down.  It is slowing down for Allen, we certainly saw that in the first three games.  Yesterday as I’ve said earlier today the moment was too big for him. At this point in his career at least.  When he finally gets he can destroy teams by just taking what’s there and that he doesn’t have to make the home run play every time he’ll be really good.  It’s there, we can see it, but he has to stop making two mistakes:  holding onto the ball too long when the play isn’t there and taking bad sacks and throwing deep into coverage to try and make a big play. 

1 minute ago, Phil The Thrill said:

He didn’t really destroy them.  He made some plays with his legs and made some great passes where WR’s were schemes open.  But that was a good game for a rookie QB.

 

Yesterday's game wasn’t just bad.... it was atrocious 

You have ascertainment bias, it’s pretty clear. You decided a while ago Josh won’t be the guy.  So when you bring up Jones as a rookie and has a good game, it’s how great Jones was.  But when Josh did the same thing against the Vikings last year it’s that it was the WRs and the playcalling.  Anything but him playing well.  Too bad, I thought you were interested in serious give and take.

[Phil The Thrill]

10 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Nope. If the hero ball is going on in week 15 I’ll be concerned for next season. 

Fair enough....

[CoudyBills]

I think you are putting too much stock in the Daniel Jones thing.  That said, I am getting nervous.  He needs to eliminate the Peterman stretches.

[PromoTheRobot]

41 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

We're going places if Allen stays healthy

You can't bench him for barkley PTR.

 

If you do that you might as well trade him because he's 20x the QB Barkley is at this moment and that will kill the team

 

It looks like my scenario will work itself out anyway. Allen won't play Sunday, my gut tells me. Benching him, sitting him, concussion protocol, all adds up the same. He won't be back til the Miami game.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Josh was terrible yesterday. There is no sugar coating it or excusing it. But you are right about Daboll. He did not call a good game. The 3rd down call on that 4 down series by the goalline was awful. Made no sense. I am not generally a guy who plays blame the OC.... but I thought Daboll had one of his worst nights with the Bills last night. 

 

Im not saying he wasn't bad, I am saying its foolish to over react over one game and ignore a lot of the positives we have seen from him since he has been a Bill.  

 

But yeah, I dont like to blame the OC either, but wow Daboll was terrible yesterday and I really do think it contributed to Allens struggles.  Doesn't absolve Allen, and he gets to own the mistakes, but at the same time Daboll did him no favors yesterday.    

[Nihilarian]

5 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Go ahead and list the QBs Daboll has worked with in all those stints as well.. then see if your argument holds water.

 

I'm not big on Daboll, but you cant deny he's never had a real qb to work with.

Some OC's tend to call plays in whatever they want without understanding the QB's they have under them aren't elite, fully developed players. Bills WR John Brown recently stated that this current offensive scheme is the most complex, complicated he has been involved in. 

 

I have no doubt that Josh Allen has the smarts to understand the entire offensive scheme and make it work. What the problem is he was going against the most complex defense in the league that confuses even the best QB's out there. Josh was seeing multiple coverage's, looks and players switching positions which were causing him problems.  Plus the Patriots were playing a tight man to man which was taking away that short stuff to Beasley, Brown. 

 

If you go back to watch the film to look at the NE defense, the Patriots ran against the Steeler's in week one vs what they ran against Miami it looked like two completely different defenses.

 

Herein is the problem in that Bills OC Brian Daboll should have been calling plays that would allow that young QB to settle in and gain some confidence, get into a rhythm which would require working the run game well enough to move the chains so the QB doesn't need to shoulder the offense. Work the run game like Anthony Lynn, Greg Roman did with a less talented line. Once the Pats defense is worried about stopping the run game then work the passing game. 

 

The Bills should be running the ball much more then they are passing it and they should have been doing this all season. If they are forced to pass because the run game isn't working then find those short passes that allow completions, get confidence up, get him in a rhythm and good things should happen.

 

Instead, the Bills came out throwing Pass, pass, sack! Penalty on Pats defense for holding! Frank Gore 9 yards, Gore 2 yards and back to the passing again. Pass, incomplete but Center Mitch Morse penalty. Frank Gore run, no gain. Penalty on Lee Smith holding. Now its 1st and 20 on the Buffalo 30 yard line and Allen goes deep middle, intercepted! 

 

Knowing how good that Patriots defense is against the pass the Bills should have been working Gore and Yeldon more all game. Frank Gore had 17 rushes for 109 yards and it should have been more. This current OC is pass happy regardless of the situation, QB, opposing defense and he has been his entire career. 

[PromoTheRobot]

24 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

If Allen is healthy enough to play then he should be playing. If he can’t learn from these mistakes then he’s not going to last long. I don’t see how benching him for a clearly inferior QB helps him or this team.

 

Don't think of Barkley as inferior. He's a change up. How would you feel if Allen plays and keeps taking 3rd down sacks and throwing picks because you don't want to sit him for one game?  Don't sweat it because it's happening anyway. Barkley will start Sunday.

Edited September 30, 2019 by PromoTheRobot

[Phil The Thrill]

5 minutes ago, CoudyBills said:

I think you are putting too much stock in the Daniel Jones thing.  That said, I am getting nervous.  He needs to eliminate the Peterman stretches.

I might be putting too much stock in him, for sure.  The thing I notice is that the Giants offense looks completely different when he’s under center vs.  Eli.  
 

 

[dous21]

My big fear is Allen never improving the braindead mistakes and never learning how to read a defense and we are stuck with him like Tampa with Winston hoping every year we can improve 

 

An even bigger fear is Mcdermott and this staff failing to reach the playoffs in the next 2 years with a SB caliber defense. If that happens we need to hit the restart button and start thinking about bring in an offensive genius HC