Maybe Jones, Giants can learn something from how Bills handled Allen

[HOUSE]

This article was pretty good

 

 

By Tom Rock tom.rock@newsday.com @TomRock_Newsday Updated September 13, 2019 6:37 PM

 

It’s hard to say what Josh Allen will become in the NFL.

Maybe he’ll be the savior in Buffalo, the quarterback who finally leads the Bills to a title and plays a long and fulfilling career there. Maybe he’ll be a bust. Maybe, as Pat Shurmur’s assessment seemed to be, he’ll wind up in the large pack of middling players who ascend to starters at a position scarce on talent but never take the next step to star, to franchise quarterback, to champion.

Whatever happens to him in the coming years, though, will have its roots in the experience he gained as a rookie last season when he started 11 games for the Bills.

“I was really kind of baptized by fire,” Allen said this week, as he prepared for start two in season two, this one against the Giants. “There were a lot of situations that I was kind of thrown into that I wasn’t, maybe, fully prepared for. But I learned from them.”

 

Maybe the Giants can learn something from it, too.

 

https://www.newsday.com/sports/football/giants/daniel-jones-josh-allen-1.36269348

Edited September 14, 2019 by HOUSE

[StHustle]

He went from getting 3rd string reps in preseason....to starting the second half of Game 1 last year. For someone who was clueless about alot of things early on, he looked pretty decent because he is very instinctive. To me, Josh is boom or bust. I don't see him being a middle of the pack type QB. 

[Albany,n.y.]

25 minutes ago, StHustle said:

He went from getting 3rd string reps in preseason....to starting the second half of Game 1 last year. For someone who was clueless about alot of things early on, he looked pretty decent because he is very instinctive. To me, Josh is boom or bust. I don't see him being a middle of the pack type QB. 

BOOM

[StHustle]

7 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Giants do have a bonaifde HOF starting for them now

 

[Albany,n.y.]

I'm surprised the writer never mentioned how Eli Manning was thrown in during the 2004 season.  The Giants started the season with Kurt Warner, lost their opener then won 4 in a row.  They opened the season 5-2, then lost 2 games in a row to go to 5-4 & Coughlin switched to Manning, who started the last 7 games.  Manning was pretty awful his 1st 4 games as the starter then on a nationally televised game vs Pittsburgh something clicked. He was better that day even though the Giants lost 33-30.  They lost the next week at Cincinnati by a point, 23-22 then won the season finale vs Dallas 28-24.  If anything, the Giants should follow the same model they did with Manning-go to Jones the 2nd half of the season & stick with him no matter how bad he looks once they put him in.  

[transient]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Giants do have a bonaifde HOF starting for them now

 

[DallasMac]

What really helped Allen was getting some veterans in there to show him how to prepare for games.  We all saw a totally different player once Barkley and Anderson were added.

Edited September 14, 2019 by DallasMac

[iinii]

Maybe.....Allen wasn’t the first player thrown to the wolves and won’t be the last. Maybe....no two players are the same and no two situations are the same. Gotta churn those opinions in case one of them sticks. 

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, StHustle said:

He went from getting 3rd string reps in preseason....to starting the second half of Game 1 last year. For someone who was clueless about alot of things early on, he looked pretty decent because he is very instinctive. To me, Josh is boom or bust. I don't see him being a middle of the pack type QB. 

See I see that as his most likely destination. Bust QBs tend to not play games like he did last week. I don't think he has the tools to be a top guy, but if he keeps getting better he can be the kind of guy that you can win with. He'll win games for you like he did last week and he'll lose games for you too, but I don't see him ever doing the kinds of things Brady, Brees, Mahomes or even Watson (in a valiant losing effort) did last week. He might be able to be the version of Rivers that actually gets it done though.

[Inigo Montoya]

13 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

See I see that as his most likely destination. Bust QBs tend to not play games like he did last week. I don't think he has the tools to be a top guy, but if he keeps getting better he can be the kind of guy that you can win with. He'll win games for you like he did last week and he'll lose games for you too, but I don't see him ever doing the kinds of things Brady, Brees, Mahomes or even Watson (in a valiant losing effort) did last week. He might be able to be the version of Rivers that actually gets it done though.

 

Every quarterbacks path to "franchise" status is different.  Brady sat behind Bledsoe and learned and stepped in and was a "game manager" type of quarterback for years while he learned his craft.  Drew Brees was actually released by the team that drafted him, the Chargers, in favor of Phillip Rivers and only flourished later in his career in New Orleans. Mahomes sat behind Alex Smith and stepped into an offense with one of the best O-lines and some of the best  skill position players in the league and has taken full advantage of it.  Jared Goff was widely regarded as a bust until Sean McVay showed up.  Peyton Manning's first year was a disaster.

 

It's so variable.  A lot of it simply has to do with the situation QBs find themselves in.  Who are the coaches on the team?  Do they have an O-line?  What kind of supporting cast is around him?  Will he be given time to learn his trade or is he trapped in a dysfunctional franchise that can't get out of its own way?.  Those are all things outside of a QBs control.

 

I don't know what Josh Allen will turn out to be but I'm encouraged from watching the last half of last season and the Jets game last Sunday.  It looks like he is learning and improving.  I think the Bill's front office has worked hard to put an O-line in front of him and skill players around him to help Allen's game develop.  I think our franchise is stable and finally shedding the dysfunction that we have seen for the last two decades. 

 

Time will tell about Allen, but I'm inclined to believe that the odds are in his favor of him becoming something special.

[Kwai San]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I like the baptism by fire approach, but Giants do have a bonaifde HOF starting for them now so I don't see the issue with Jones sitting and learning from him.

 

Huh????  I am not in agreement with that assessment.....at all.

[Albany,n.y.]

Brees wasn't released.  His contract was up & he was franchised.  Then right before his contract was up again he got injured and the Chargers let him leave via free agency & New Orleans took a chance he'd fully recover & signed him to a big free agent contract.  That's not getting released, it's being allowed to go to free agency, the same way Mitch Morse got to the Bills.  KC didn't release Morse & the Chargers didn't release Brees.    

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, Kwai San said:

 

Huh????  I am not in agreement with that assessment.....at all.

You might be standing alone there. Eli is as good as most of the QBs in the hall and is a 2 time SB MVP and Champion. He's playing at an fortunate time where we've probably watched the #1,#2,#3 QBs of all time play in the league simultaneously

[StHustle]

11 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

You might be standing alone there. Eli is as good as most of the QBs in the hall and is a 2 time SB MVP and Champion. He's playing at an fortunate time where we've probably watched the #1,#2,#3 QBs of all time play in the league simultaneously

 

Eli had 2 remarkable post season runs in which his team took down Brady (which IMO gets him in the HOF eventually). Other than that he career as widely been meh. You and @ScottLaw speak of him as if he is a first ballot guy. Its gonna take him many years after eligibility to get in. You'll see.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, StHustle said:

 

 

 

2 hours ago, transient said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Kwai San said:

 

Huh????  I am not in agreement with that assessment.....at all.

 

 

So he's 8th all time in TD passes AND outduelled the GOAT to win 2 Super Bowls and you guys think he's not making the HOF??

 

He's going to finish with probably 80-100 more TD passes than Warren Moon who basically made it as a stat accumulator so I wouldn't bet the house on Eli getting left out of the HOF.

[StHustle]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

 

So he's 8th all time in TD passes AND outduelled the GOAT to win 2 Super Bowls and you guys think he's not making the HOF??

 

He's going to finish with probably 80-100 more TD passes than Warren Moon who basically made it as a stat accumulator so I wouldn't bet the house on Eli getting left out of the HOF.

 

Check my post right before your last one. I cleared up my opinion. 

 

I just did a quick google search to prove to you that its not so cut and dry as you make it sound.

 

13 HOF QBs weigh in on Eli HOF probability (Jim Kelly) included

[Gugny]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

 

So he's 8th all time in TD passes AND outduelled the GOAT to win 2 Super Bowls and you guys think he's not making the HOF??

 

He's going to finish with probably 80-100 more TD passes than Warren Moon who basically made it as a stat accumulator so I wouldn't bet the house on Eli getting left out of the HOF.

 

Eli is not only a Hall of Famer; he is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

[StHustle]

8 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Eli is not only a Hall of Famer; he is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

 

Not sure if this is satire

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, StHustle said:

 

Not sure if this is satire

 

Fair.  But it's not.  His stats as a starter, in addition to his two rings, make him walk in.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, StHustle said:

 

Check my post right before your last one. I cleared up my opinion. 

 

I just did a quick google search to prove to you that its not so cut and dry as you make it sound.

 

13 HOF QBs weigh in on Eli HOF probability (Jim Kelly) included

 

And I pointed out the obvious.........he's going to hit the ballot as likely the 10th all time TD passer WAY ahead of a bunch of long careered HOF QB's plus two oustanding performances in SB wins.     It will be accurately argued that he doesn't warrant mention in the same breath as Unitas, Montana, Brady etc.. but there are also only going to be around 7 other stud QB's eligible in the first 10-12 years of Eli's eligibility...........he's getting in whether it's like Warren Moon as an accumulator or like Kurt Warner as a guy who had a couple extraordinary SB runs........or both.........but he's getting in.    

 

 

[StHustle]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

Fair.  But it's not.  His stats as a starter, in addition to his two rings, make him walk in.

 

 

Eli Manning?

 

The guy who besides the 2 SB runs has never won a playoff game?

The guy who won his division only 3 times in 15 seasons?

The guy who will finish his career with a losing record?

Should I keep going?

 

Look I agreed he is a HOF but its going to take awhile. He is nowhere near a first ballot guy. His defense got him his rings.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, StHustle said:

 

Eli Manning?

 

The guy who besides the 2 SB runs has never won a playoff game?

The guy who won his division only 3 times in 15 seasons?

The guy who will finish his career with a losing record?

Should I keep going?

 

Look I agreed he is a HOF but its going to take awhile. He is nowhere near a first ballot guy. His defense got him his rings.

 

 

 

Moon 1 game over .500

Fouts 2 games over .500

Both known for choking in playoffs

Both in HOF

Yes you know he's a HOF..........none of us are saying he's anywhere near the GOAT conversation either........... but he's simply checked boxes that we know would be unprecedented for voters to ignore. 

[Gugny]

4 minutes ago, StHustle said:

 

Eli Manning?

 

The guy who besides the 2 SB runs has never won a playoff game?

The guy who won his division only 3 times in 15 seasons?

The guy who will finish his career with a losing record?

Should I keep going?

 

Look I agreed he is a HOF but its going to take awhile. He is nowhere near a first ballot guy. His defense got him his rings.

 

 

W-L is a team stat; not a QB stat.

 

Kelly had better defenses, with four tries, and didn't get a ring.

[StHustle]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

W-L is a team stat; not a QB stat.

 

Kelly had better defenses, with four tries, and didn't get a ring.

 

So would you conclude that Eli Manning was a better QB than Jim Kelly?

[Gugny]

4 minutes ago, StHustle said:

 

So would you conclude that Eli Manning was a better QB than Jim Kelly?

 

Yes.  Without a doubt.  Manning NEVER had the supporting cast that Kelly did.  Manning's stats are better.  He has two rings.  And he was more durable.

[Captain Caveman]

I don't think it makes sense to compare Manning's stats to those of guys like Kelly who played in different eras, where QBs did not routinely rack up 4000 and 5000 yard seasons.  Manning had amazing defenses in the years they won it all, so not sure about the supporting casts being that different.  He has definitely been more durable, which is interesting, because I almost feel like people would give him more credit if he'd retired a couple years ago.

[transient]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

 

So he's 8th all time in TD passes AND outduelled the GOAT to win 2 Super Bowls and you guys think he's not making the HOF??

 

He's going to finish with probably 80-100 more TD passes than Warren Moon who basically made it as a stat accumulator so I wouldn't bet the house on Eli getting left out of the HOF.

 

In the literal sense he is not a “bonafide HOF QB” as he’s still playing.  

 

In a relative sense many of his contemporaries in Roethlisberger, Rivers, and even Matt Ryan will put up similar numbers  because of the era they play in. I think his two SB wins and MVPs probably get him in, but I don’t think it’s a slam dunk given his team’s otherwise inauspicious performances and his interceptions, and I think Roesthlisberger gets in first. I also wonder if Peyton’s inevitable first ballot induction doesn’t impact Eli even though it shouldn’t.

 

I think some of the younger generation of QB are likely to force him down the list during this increasingly pass happy era which may affect his chances in the 5 years+ before he’s up for induction. I would be surprised if he’s a first ballot HOFer if he does get in, giving guys like Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford, Russell Wilson, even Kirk Cousins time to dilute his stats and possibly even pass him in line in the case of Wilson. 

[Malazan]

1 hour ago, StHustle said:

 

Not sure if this is satire

 

You made me agree with badolbillz. You're not a good person.

[Inigo Montoya]

2 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Brees wasn't released.  His contract was up & he was franchised.  Then right before his contract was up again he got injured and the Chargers let him leave via free agency & New Orleans took a chance he'd fully recover & signed him to a big free agent contract.  That's not getting released, it's being allowed to go to free agency, the same way Mitch Morse got to the Bills.  KC didn't release Morse & the Chargers didn't release Brees.    

 

If you hurry, you can just make it to that hair splitters convention in Poughkeepsie...    ?

 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Inigo Montoya

[nucci]

How did we handle Allen? Determined Peterman was more prepared to be the starter then benched him after 1 half...Allen then starts....

[billsfan1959]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

So he's 8th all time in TD passes AND outduelled the GOAT to win 2 Super Bowls and you guys think he's not making the HOF??

 

He's going to finish with probably 80-100 more TD passes than Warren Moon who basically made it as a stat accumulator so I wouldn't bet the house on Eli getting left out of the HOF.

 

5 hours ago, Gugny said:

Eli is not only a Hall of Famer; he is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Absolutely correct. Eli Manning will be in the HOF.

[GETTOTHE50]

I think Eli will be too, but if Andre had to wait, then so does Eli.

 

To some of Eli’s credit, he is part of two of the most iconic catches in football history. The helmet catch and OBJs one hander  

[Putin]

10 hours ago, StHustle said:

He went from getting 3rd string reps in preseason....to starting the second half of Game 1 last year. For someone who was clueless about alot of things early on, he looked pretty decent because he is very instinctive. To me, Josh is boom or bust. I don't see him being a middle of the pack type QB. 

I have to disagree about the

( boom or bust ) part . And of course this is just my opinion, 

If what we see NOW  is his floor then he’s already in middle of the pack , could he regress It’s possible , but if I had to bet I believe the odds are better of him improving then regressing  ,

hope I’m right !!! 

Go Bills baby 2-0 !!!

[StHustle]

28 minutes ago, Putin said:

I have to disagree about the

( boom or bust ) part . And of course this is just my opinion, 

If what we see NOW  is his floor then he’s already in middle of the pack , could he regress It’s possible , but if I had to bet I believe the odds are better of him improving then regressing  ,

hope I’m right !!! 

Go Bills baby 2-0 !!!

 

That means nothing based on the sample size. Remember Trent Edwards Floor? And if what we saw now is the best of Josh, he would be considered a BUST for a top 10 pick

[BullBuchanan]

8 hours ago, StHustle said:

 

Eli had 2 remarkable post season runs in which his team took down Brady (which IMO gets him in the HOF eventually). Other than that he career as widely been meh. You and @ScottLaw speak of him as if he is a first ballot guy. Its gonna take him many years after eligibility to get in. You'll see.

He's absolutely going to be top-bill on the first ballot.

[Punching Bag]

11 hours ago, DallasMac said:

What really helped Allen was getting some veterans in there to show him how to prepare for games.  We all saw a totally different player once Barkley and Anderson were added.

Did not help that QB coach never coached QBs since college.

[eball]

11 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

I don't think he has the tools to be a top guy,

 

If there is anything Josh has, it's all of the tools necessary to be a top guy.  He's big, athletic, smart, a natural leader, and has a cannon.  Which tools are you thinking he lacks?

[JESSEFEFFER]

50 minutes ago, eball said:

 

If there is anything Josh has, it's all of the tools necessary to be a top guy.  He's big, athletic, smart, a natural leader, and has a cannon.  Which tools are you thinking he lacks?

 

All he lacks is the player pedigree of an elite QB and pedigree is not a tool.

[eball]

10 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

All he lacks is the player pedigree of an elite QB and pedigree is not a tool.

 

No, I think we know who the "tool" is in this thread. 

[Mojo44]

12 hours ago, iinii said:

Maybe.....Allen wasn’t the first player thrown to the wolves and won’t be the last. Maybe....no two players are the same and no two situations are the same. Gotta churn those opinions in case one of them sticks. 

Yep.  The fact is, the right answer to this question is always “it depends”. Context, context and context!