John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

You may have thought it was a bad trade at the time.   Others didn't.   It wasn't obviously a bad trade at the time; their were plenty of people excited about and who thought Benjy was the perfect receiver to get for Taylor.   But I'm absolutely certain that Beane had good reasons for doing it.   It just turned out that some of the things he thought were true about Benjamin (from his prior experiences with him) turned out not be true.  So his judgments turned out to be wrong.    Yours has no doubt been wrong on plenty of other decisions.   It happens.  

 

Agreed. That’s all I’m saying, it was wrong.  

 

Keep in mind I’m only reacting to the extra credit some Boy Scout wanted to give Beane for the tyrod trade while turning a blind eye to any other mistakes. Regardless if they were a good idea “at the time” 

[dave mcbride]

On 6/4/2019 at 10:59 AM, oldmanfan said:

It is probably blasphemy around here but I don't see how Marv got into the Hall, at least as quickly as he did.  I think coaching lost the first and fourth SBs.

I totally disagree about the 4th Super Bowl (also @K-9), which I think was actually one of his best coaching efforts. That Cowboys team was a LOT better than the Bills, and Kelly was already in decline (he was never the same after rupturing his bursa sac midway through 1992). The Bills genuinely had a really good plan - a short, high completion-rate passing attack that allowed them to control the first half against an opponent with far superior talent, and a defensive scheme that took away big plays. Plus their two best defensive players that season - Bruce Smith and Nate Odomes - really showed up in that first half. They opened the second half by successfully running the ball down the Cowboys' throats on the first three plays, and then Kent Hull got absolutely embarrassed by Leon Lett, leading to a Thomas fumble. The thing that galls me about that play is that he literally fumbled into the middle of a massive scrum near midfield, and James Washington returned it for a TD. That hardly ever happens. Next, the Cowboys began exploiting the Bills' talent deficiency. On their next drive, they ran right at Phil Hanson (and away from Bruce Smith) 11 out of 13 plays, and Erik Williams buried him on virtually every play. It was sad to watch. Then, on third and goal, Jeff Wright actually gets into the backfield with a clear shot to wrap Emmitt Smith up for a loss, and just ... fails. Epically. Smith tossed him aside like a rag doll and ran in for the score. It should have been 16-13, but instead it was 20-13 and panic set in. The Bills couldn't move the ball, and Kelly eventually forced a pass into triple coverage near mid-field  (while the game was still in reach) and it was of course picked off by James Washington. It was a terrible decision by him. 

 

Anyway, the Bills had a very good plan, but very bad plays by individual players - not bad decisions by coaches - plus a deficiency in talent that eventually manifested itself (as it almost always does) led to the loss.

 

Don't blame Marv for that one. The previous (third) loss was signficantly worse on the coaching front,  and while I could get into the details, I won't.  

 

One other thing: it was outrageous that Washington didn't win MVP. He had two fumble recoveries, a pick, and returned a fumble for a TD.

Edited June 6, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Shaw66]

18 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I totally disagree about the 4th Super Bowl (also @K-9), which I think was actually one of his best coaching efforts. That Cowboys team was a LOT better than the Bills, and Kelly was already in decline (he was never the same after rupturing his bursa sac midway through 1992). The Bills genuinely had a really good plan - a short, high completion-rate passing attack that allowed them to control the first half against an opponent with far superior talent, and a defensive scheme that took away big plays. Plus their two best defensive players that season - Bruce Smith and Nate Odomes - really showed up in that first half. They opened the second half by successfully running the ball down the Cowboys' throats on the first three plays, and then Kent Hull got absolutely embarrassed by Leon Lett, leading to a Thomas fumble. The thing that galls me about that play is that he literally fumbled into the middle of a massive scrum, and James Washington returned it for a TD. That hardly ever happens. Next, the Cowboys began exploiting the Bills' talent deficiency. On their next drive, they ran right at Phil Hanson (and away from Bruce Smith) 11 out of 13 plays, and Erik Williams buried him on virtually every play. It was sad to watch. Then, on third and goal, Jeff Wright actually gets into the backfield with a clear shot to wrap Emmitt Smith up for a loss, and just ... fails. Epically. Smith tossed him aside like a rag doll and ran in for the score. It should have been 16-13, but instead it was 20-13 and panic set in. The Bills couldn't move the ball, and Kelly eventually forced a pass into triple coverage near mid-field  (while the game was still in reach) and it was of course picked off by James Washington. It was a terrible decision by him. 

 

Anyway, the Bills had a very good plan, but very bad plays by individual players - not bad decisions by coaches - plus a deficiency in talent that eventually manifested itself (as it almost always does) led to the loss.

 

Don't blame Marv for that one. The previous (third) loss was signficantly worse on the coaching front,  and while I could get into the details, I won't.  

 

One other thing: it was outrageous that Washington didn't win MVP. He had two fumble recoveries, a pick, and returned a fumble for a TD.

I fault Marv because once he said it wasn't his job to get players emotionally prepared for games.  He said they're professionals and it's their job to get ready emotionally.   They weren't emotionally ready for the first Super Bowl, and I don't think they ready for the fourth either.   The teams that are ready make the plays.  The Bills game out in the second half of the fourth Super Bowl and were seriously outplayed for 20 minutes.   They weren't ready to match the Cowboys' intensity.  

[Coach Tuesday]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I fault Marv because once he said it wasn't his job to get players emotionally prepared for games.  He said they're professionals and it's their job to get ready emotionally.   They weren't emotionally ready for the first Super Bowl, and I don't think they ready for the fourth either.   The teams that are ready make the plays.  The Bills game out in the second half of the fourth Super Bowl and were seriously outplayed for 20 minutes.   They weren't ready to match the Cowboys' intensity.  

 

You don't think the Bills were emotionally ready for the first Super Bowl?  They DOMINATED that game.  They were tired by the time Mark Ingram needed to be tackled.  But they were ready to play and win that game.

[dave mcbride]

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I fault Marv because once he said it wasn't his job to get players emotionally prepared for games.  He said they're professionals and it's their job to get ready emotionally.   They weren't emotionally ready for the first Super Bowl, and I don't think they ready for the fourth either.   The teams that are ready make the plays.  The Bills game out in the second half of the fourth Super Bowl and were seriously outplayed for 20 minutes.   They weren't ready to match the Cowboys' intensity.  

I totally disagree. I distinctly remember Michael Irvin coming off the field at halftime and saying this to the on-field reporter about the Bills: "wow, these boys came to play." What happened in the second half was a mix of bad plays by players and the Cowboys' massive structural advantage in talent. Nothing more, nothing less. As for motivation, they were as intense and focused as I've ever seen them in that game. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by dave mcbride

[GunnerBill]

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

[Bill from NYC]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

I hear ya, but the key word is “results.” Had EJ developed and Sammy became an All Pro, we wouldn’t be saying he gave away the store. Oh, there might be a few stragglers clinging to the idea that Whaley gave up too much, just as there were after Bennett became a star back in the day.

 

But I submit we’d all be pretty happy if it worked out. 

Fair enough.

[Shaw66]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

Great times.  

[oldmanfan]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

It was an amazing run.  I'd also be happy to talk to you about the two AFL championships - that was even better!

[Shaw66]

34 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

You don't think the Bills were emotionally ready for the first Super Bowl?  They DOMINATED that game.  They were tired by the time Mark Ingram needed to be tackled.  But they were ready to play and win that game.

They weren't ready. Belichick told his players to hit the Bulls receivers as hard as they could as often as they could.  Reed admitted they weren't prepared for that.  They came out ready to play just another game. The Giants were ready to play the Super Bowl. 

[Stank_Nasty]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

I was too young to really get it. 5-9 yrs old..... I fear that if anything like that ever happened now, as an invested fan, it may drive me straight to the looney bin.

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I totally disagree about the 4th Super Bowl (also @K-9), which I think was actually one of his best coaching efforts. That Cowboys team was a LOT better than the Bills, and Kelly was already in decline (he was never the same after rupturing his bursa sac midway through 1992). The Bills genuinely had a really good plan - a short, high completion-rate passing attack that allowed them to control the first half against an opponent with far superior talent, and a defensive scheme that took away big plays. Plus their two best defensive players that season - Bruce Smith and Nate Odomes - really showed up in that first half. They opened the second half by successfully running the ball down the Cowboys' throats on the first three plays, and then Kent Hull got absolutely embarrassed by Leon Lett, leading to a Thomas fumble. The thing that galls me about that play is that he literally fumbled into the middle of a massive scrum near midfield, and James Washington returned it for a TD. That hardly ever happens. Next, the Cowboys began exploiting the Bills' talent deficiency. On their next drive, they ran right at Phil Hanson (and away from Bruce Smith) 11 out of 13 plays, and Erik Williams buried him on virtually every play. It was sad to watch. Then, on third and goal, Jeff Wright actually gets into the backfield with a clear shot to wrap Emmitt Smith up for a loss, and just ... fails. Epically. Smith tossed him aside like a rag doll and ran in for the score. It should have been 16-13, but instead it was 20-13 and panic set in. The Bills couldn't move the ball, and Kelly eventually forced a pass into triple coverage near mid-field  (while the game was still in reach) and it was of course picked off by James Washington. It was a terrible decision by him. 

 

Anyway, the Bills had a very good plan, but very bad plays by individual players - not bad decisions by coaches - plus a deficiency in talent that eventually manifested itself (as it almost always does) led to the loss.

 

Don't blame Marv for that one. The previous (third) loss was signficantly worse on the coaching front,  and while I could get into the details, I won't.  

 

One other thing: it was outrageous that Washington didn't win MVP. He had two fumble recoveries, a pick, and returned a fumble for a TD.

I see your point.  The third was just ridiculous all the way around.  No team should ever be embarrassed like that in a championship game.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Chemical said:

 

It doesn’t matter if you don’t fault him. You may as well be saying you’re a flat earther to me at this point. It was a bad trade. He was at fault by definition.

 

It’s something that happened not the end of the world but at least admit the most obvious mistakes for Chrissakes

 

Also: that’s exactly what he did. Wasted a pick and having benjamin on the field was a NEGATIVE value. 

 

Sammy is better than any wr we have had since by a long shot. 

 

The chiefs had hill and kelce but still added him because that’s what real offenses have, weapons. 

If he is at fault then every other GM in the league is at fault for this at one point or another......simple as that

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Chemical said:

 

 

Sammy is better than any wr we have had since by a long shot. 

 

Sammy by his own admission was not a team player any time he was in Buffalo.  That disqualified him with McD before talent even became an issue.

[3rdand12]

6 hours ago, teef said:

i still don't think the sammy trade was bad.  he's incredibly talented, yet still has yet to show that he can put up any real sort of production.  yet, people keep making excuses for him.  the problem wasn't trading him, the problem was not doing anything sufficient enough to try and fill that hole.  

i concur 

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, Stank_Nasty said:

I was too young to really get it. 5-9 yrs old..... I fear that if anything like that ever happened now, as an invested fan, it may drive me straight to the looney bin.

I was sincerely traumatized by the 4 SB experience and how they lost the last one.

  stopped watching the -bills.

But now i am a huge fan.
Go Bills !

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

You know when I knew the future Buffalo Bills would be great? It was in 1987 week 12 against Miami on an unusually sunny November day. The Bills won that game 27 to 0 and the Dolphins didn't cross the 50 yard line for the entire first half. The Dolphins with HC Don Shula benched Dan Marino after he went 13 of 28 for 165 yards, 3 INTs. He had a passer rating of 25.7. 

QB Don Strock came in the game and drove them down to the Bills goal line...where they promptly turned the ball over...

 

Earlier that year on Halloween, Bill Polian had made a trade with the LA Rams, Colts in a 10 player deal. To set this up, I was kind of heartbroken to see the Colts draft LBer Cornelius Bennett as I loved watching him tear it up at Bama. The Colts drafted Bennett with the 1987 #2 pick and like John Elway, he didn't want to play for Indy so he remained unsigned.

In that trade the Bills got Biscuit, the Colts got Eric Dickerson, the Rams got a bunch of picks with RB Greg Bell, RB Owen Gill.

 

The Buffalo Bills gave up RB Greg Bell and the Bills 1988 #1 pick, their 1989 #1 pick, 1989 #2 pick.

 

 

The next year in 1988 that Bills defense was #3 in points allowed, #4 in yards allowed. The 88 Bills ended up 12-4 and went to the AFC championship game in Cincy. Think I still have an orange air horn from that game. Those things weren't supposed to be allowed and yet the stadium as filled with them. 

 

My favorite game that year was a low scoring 9-6 slug fest with the NY Jets in a downpour! The Jets at that time were 8-7-1 and the Bills were 10-1. The Bills won that game in overtime with Fred Smerlas blocking a FG. This win gave the Bills the record for the fasted win to the AFC East Championship.

Oh, BTW. That was the "FAN-DEMONIUM"  game in which the Bills fans ran on the field and tore the goal posts down! Most fun in a downpour I've ever had! 

 

 

The next year the Bills ended up 9-7 and still won the AFC East in 1989. They ended up in Cleveland for a wildcard game. Some jackass Browns fan had brought in a diesel air horn along with a huge battery and the noise from it was deafening!  Thurman Thomas had a 1982 Kellen Winslow type performance with 13 receptions for 150 yards, 2 TDs. Browns LBer Clay Matthews stepped in front of a JK pass to end the Bills last drive in that 34-30 loss. Just before that INT, Bills RB Ronnie Harmon missed a catch in the end zone that would have won the game. Man 0 man he never lived that down. 

 

There were some great years before the super bowls too. 

[Cripple Creek]

5 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

There are no elections since 2017 when no one ran for the position.  We tried to leave you on the steps of the fire department but you found your way back.  Since then "Boss of You" has been assigned to the TBD member with the lowest blood alcohol content and cleanest urine.

Who determines cleanest urine?

[GaryPinC]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

My only wish as a Bills fan is one day I can talk with you guys about their performance in a Superbowl. Losing 4 in a row must have stung somewhat but those years had to be fun, right?

It was a ton of fun.  The offense was breathtaking and the defense could make plays that took your breath away.  Anyone that tries to make fun of them losing 4 in a row, I tell them it was a privilege to watch that team go to work during those years.  The whole thing taught me that being a fan isn't just about winning a trophy, they were an amazing experience regardless.

[dave mcbride]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I see your point.  The third was just ridiculous all the way around.  No team should ever be embarrassed like that in a championship game.

... and I give you that Jeff Wright failure play. It was third and 3 to go, not 3rd and goal, but it should have been a two yard loss. If Ted Washington had been there, Smith would have been planted in the ground. Wright was such a weak NT. It's amazing the defense did as well as it did (not that it was great) given the relative void in the center of the d-line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpC8Z-oGd4c

Edited June 6, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

If he is at fault then every other GM in the league is at fault for this at one point or another......simple as that

 

Um ok yes you are right about a completely different point. Never said anything about him compared to other gms , but go ahead and move the goal posts so you can feel better. 

[Phil The Thrill]

9 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

... and I give that Jeff Wright failure play. It was third and 3 to go, not 3rd and goal, but it should have been a two yard loss. If Ted Washington had been there, Smith would have been planted in the ground. Wright was such a weak NT. It's amazing the defense did as well as it did (not that it was great) given the relative void in the center of the d-line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpC8Z-oGd4c

 

I have been pounding my fist on the table for years about Jeff Wright.  He was not very good and not the type of NT they needed.  I have said that Wright and whoever was playing CB2 (most JD Williams) were the weak links on the team.  

[John from Riverside]

21 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

Um ok yes you are right about a completely different point. Never said anything about him compared to other gms , but go ahead and move the goal posts so you can feel better. 

I feel fine stating the obvious

[LSHMEAB]

10 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I have felt this way every season since the "glory years." This is the exact reason I am just so happy about Ford. If he is as good as I hope he is, he will make a HUGE impact, even (if not especially) at RG!

 

As you and all who attend the games know, weather can have a huge impact in Orchard park. I was at a game and saw Drew Bledsoe release a pass and the wind blew it backwards. I'm not talking about Trent Edwards now.  Running is a necessity and power running (because of the smaller defenses) is now VERY important imho.

 

Gore and Yeldon will gain considerable yards behind a powerful right side, especially with Allen being such a threat to go deep to Foster.

 

I still think there are a couple of missing pieces but this team might be good and exciting in 2019.

We're gonna find out quite a bit about Daboll's ability to scheme a run game in 2019. Last season was the most putrid display of ineptitude I've seen from a Bills team in terms of running the ball. OL personnel was awful. Scheme was awful. 

 

With Castillo gone and the OL improved, this is one area I expect to IMPROVE dramatically. Not the incremental stuff. This MUST change significantly or I will have serious questions about our OC.

[JohnC]

11 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

That's a fairly likely scenario.

 

I just don't see the logic in trading him away only to turn around and trade 2 picks for Benjamin.

 

If the idea was simply to accumulate picks for the pursuit of QB1, so be it. Trading for Benjamin flew in the face of that.

 

Oh well, what's done is done. Time to focus on the possibly-better-than-2014 class of WRs coming up next April.

The primary reason that this regime traded for Benjamin is that surprisingly this stripped down team was in the playoff hunt. That was an unexpected development. So McBeane tried to add a receiver to help bolster a barren unit and stay in the playoff contention. In the end although Benjamin wasn't a factor this team by fluke made the playoffs. 

 

Clearly, in hindsight it didn't work out. But to their credit they saw an opportunity and they went for it. While the Bills wasted a pick on the receiver we gained a third round pick in the Taylor trade. When the tabulation is made this regime accumulated some added picks and used them to draft our future qb. In my estimation the arithmetic of moves added up to the plus side. 

[SoTier]

10 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Or not.  As I said I wish we would have kept him, and we'll see how he does this season.  However, your response pretty much summarizes some of the back and forth going on in this thread.  It seems you want Sammy to succeed this year because that will give you an opportunity to criticize the current regime.  Much like in many of your posts you blast the current ownership for sins committed under Ralph's ownership.

 

 

 

I never wish any player to fail, whether they once played for the Bills, currently play for the Bills or never played for the Bills.  Even as poor a player as Bennie Anderson or Nathan Peterman.  Even as hated a player as Tom Brady.  

 

Furthermore, don't even pretend that you know anything about me or my motivations. Contrary to your continual slander, I have never wished for the Bills to lose or do badly.  Unlike yourself,  however, I no longer blindly believe that the people who run the team --- from ownership down to assistant coaches -- know what they're doing -- and the team's record since John Butler left all the way to the present support my cynicism that the current regime is somehow different from the failed previous ones, including the 2018 offensive horror show. 

 

I don't need to hope that Watkins lights up the league just to find "ammunition" to criticize the McDermott/Beane regime's personnel moves.  All I have to do is point to Stephon Gilmore, Robert Woods, and Ronald Darby ...as well as Kelvin Benjamin, Jordan Matthews, and AJ McCarron plus the entire mismanagement of the QB situation in 2018 starting with determining that they were going to draft a first round QB but not bothering to hire a QB coach with any experience as a QB coach in the last 30 years.     

[K-9]

12 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The primary reason that this regime traded for Benjamin is that surprisingly this stripped down team was in the playoff hunt. That was an unexpected development. So McBeane tried to add a receiver to help bolster a barren unit and stay in the playoff contention. In the end although Benjamin wasn't a factor this team by fluke made the playoffs. 

 

Clearly, in hindsight it didn't work out. But to their credit they saw an opportunity and they went for it. While the Bills wasted a pick on the receiver we gained a third round pick in the Taylor trade. When the tabulation is made this regime accumulated some added picks and used them to draft our future qb. In my estimation the arithmetic of moves added up to the plus side. 

And that 3rd rounder acquired for TT was used to trade up with Baltimore to get Edmunds. The TT trade helped us enormously.

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, K-9 said:

And that 3rd rounder acquired for TT was used to trade up with Baltimore to get Edmunds. The TT trade helped us enormously.

They procured the chips and then wisely used the chips. Those extra draft picks this regime maneuvered to get were used to acquire Josh and Edmunds, two pivotal players on each side of the ball. The arithmetic ended up on the plus side. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by JohnC

[oldmanfan]

41 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I never wish any player to fail, whether they once played for the Bills, currently play for the Bills or never played for the Bills.  Even as poor a player as Bennie Anderson or Nathan Peterman.  Even as hated a player as Tom Brady.  

 

Furthermore, don't even pretend that you know anything about me or my motivations. Contrary to your continual slander, I have never wished for the Bills to lose or do badly.  Unlike yourself,  however, I no longer blindly believe that the people who run the team --- from ownership down to assistant coaches -- know what they're doing -- and the team's record since John Butler left all the way to the present support my cynicism that the current regime is somehow different from the failed previous ones, including the 2018 offensive horror show. 

 

I don't need to hope that Watkins lights up the league just to find "ammunition" to criticize the McDermott/Beane regime's personnel moves.  All I have to do is point to Stephon Gilmore, Robert Woods, and Ronald Darby ...as well as Kelvin Benjamin, Jordan Matthews, and AJ McCarron plus the entire mismanagement of the QB situation in 2018 starting with determining that they were going to draft a first round QB but not bothering to hire a QB coach with any experience as a QB coach in the last 30 years.     

Your feelings get bruised rather easily

[Nihilarian]

55 minutes ago, SoTier said:

I don't need to hope that Watkins lights up the league just to find "ammunition" to criticize the McDermott/Beane regime's personnel moves.  All I have to do is point to Stephon Gilmore, Robert Woods, and Ronald Darby ...as well as Kelvin Benjamin, Jordan Matthews, and AJ McCarron plus the entire mismanagement of the QB situation in 2018 starting with determining that they were going to draft a first round QB but not bothering to hire a QB coach with any experience as a QB coach in the last 30 years.     

All Watkins was in Buffalo was an expensive decoy and all that money for his potential... that the team that owns him might never see as the guy is always injured. I don't expect 2019 to any different. Sammy has been in the NFL for five seasons and he has only played in one full season and in that year he was constantly nursing one injury or another.

 

As for Gilmore and Darby, they didn't fit what the Bills wanted to do and if anything... this coaching staff knows their stuff when it comes to DBs as they had the #1 pass defense in the league last season. Robert Woods didn't want to stay in Buffalo and wanted back in LA. 

 

Yes, KB was a mistake as was waiting so long to sign a veteran QB in Anderson, as he wasn't sure if he was ever going to play again and was contemplating retirement. Beane admitted this was a mistake. Nathan Peterman was a mistake, a big mistake and the HC must have had input from the OCs on that mistake. AJ McCarron came to Buffalo and pulled a Flacco by saying he wasn't here to mentor anyone, good riddance! 

 

Yes, they almost got Josh Allen killed with a bad offensive line. Bad O line coach/run game coordinator, bad WR coach, bad QB coach, bad ST coach. Although, unlike all the past regimes since the Butler era all the issues have been addressed. Trust me when I say I used to be the pinnacle of complaining when things went wrong and although a lot went wrong last season. However, a lot went right this off season too.

 

Here is a concept, how about we wait until until the team actually falls on it's face before we bring out the torches and pitchforks. I can see this team winning 9 or 10 games or even more if the run defense is as good as the pass defense. 

[LSHMEAB]

2 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

 

Here is a concept, how about we wait until until the team actually falls on it's face before we bring out the torches and pitchforks. 

This I really don't understand. Same with the constant "fire everyone" jokes.

 

Critiquing some of the moves Beane and McDermott have made does not= torches and pitchforks. Additionally, I have not seen a SINGLE poster declare that Beane OR McDermott should be fired THIS offseason. Not a single one.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that everyone agrees the regime deserves at least this season to see the plan come to fruition. The debates are exclusively hypothetical; "If they go 6-10, do they get the axe?"

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

This I really don't understand. Same with the constant "fire everyone" jokes.

 

Critiquing some of the moves Beane and McDermott have made does not= torches and pitchforks. Additionally, I have not seen a SINGLE poster declare that Beane OR McDermott should be fired THIS offseason. Not a single one.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that everyone agrees the regime deserves at least this season to see the plan come to fruition. The debates are exclusively hypothetical; "If they go 6-10, do they get the axe?"

No this regime will not get the axe if the team goes 6-10 this season. I'm confident of that. The owner is invested in McDermott and will ride that pony a lot longer. 

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

The primary reason that this regime traded for Benjamin is that surprisingly this stripped down team was in the playoff hunt. That was an unexpected development. So McBeane tried to add a receiver to help bolster a barren unit and stay in the playoff contention. In the end although Benjamin wasn't a factor this team by fluke made the playoffs. 

 

Clearly, in hindsight it didn't work out. But to their credit they saw an opportunity and they went for it. While the Bills wasted a pick on the receiver we gained a third round pick in the Taylor trade. When the tabulation is made this regime accumulated some added picks and used them to draft our future qb. In my estimation the arithmetic of moves added up to the plus side. 

It wasn't just short term as they thought Benjamin could be our #1 WR for years.  It's still a black mark on his record but the reward was much higher than the risk.

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

This I really don't understand. Same with the constant "fire everyone" jokes.

 

Critiquing some of the moves Beane and McDermott have made does not= torches and pitchforks. Additionally, I have not seen a SINGLE poster declare that Beane OR McDermott should be fired THIS offseason. Not a single one.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that everyone agrees the regime deserves at least this season to see the plan come to fruition. The debates are exclusively hypothetical; "If they go 6-10, do they get the axe?"

I agree.  The problem around here are the extremists.  A poster above who consistently posts negative stuff accuses me of blindly supporting the front office when in the very same thread I pointed out they should not have traded Watkins.  That sort of negativity is a problem.  And the ones saying Allen will be MVP or try to justify, say, the Benjamin trade are equally problematic

 

What I like right now is that the HC and GM operate in synch and have both a philosophy of how to build a team plus a plan to do so that they stick to.  Does that mean every decision they make will be correct?  Of course not.  No one is judged a success or failure based on single decisions.  Hell, Bill Gates hasn't been perfect and he's done OK for himself.  Does it mean they're immune to criticism?  Of course not.  It just gets tiresome when some go out of their way to manufacture things to B word about.  Or celebrate things that haven't happened.

 

if their plan works we'll all celebrate.  If not they'll get fired.  Simple.

 

 

[Doc Brown]

16 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

This I really don't understand. Same with the constant "fire everyone" jokes.

 

Critiquing some of the moves Beane and McDermott have made does not= torches and pitchforks. Additionally, I have not seen a SINGLE poster declare that Beane OR McDermott should be fired THIS offseason. Not a single one.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that everyone agrees the regime deserves at least this season to see the plan come to fruition. The debates are exclusively hypothetical; "If they go 6-10, do they get the axe?"

No.  They'll have one more year to prove themselves.  This is still a team in transition that needs one more good off-season.

[Augie]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

How many transition offseasons does one get? 

 

I totally get that (I really do!), but I say one too many is better than one too few.  I hate churning the whole thing without giving it an adequate chance. Rex was an exception, what a mistake! 

 

Might Belichick have made it in Cleveland? 

[Doc Brown]

21 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

How many transition offseasons does one get? 

For a full rebuild.  Two after drafting your rookie  QB.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Belichick is the exepction.

 

Dont think there's too many other HC/GM combos who've been mediocre to below average their first 3 years and gone on to win in their fourth or elsewhere.

 

I like the direction. We will all wait and see. I hope I’m right, but I won’t swear I’m right. 

 

It’s a game I enjoy and follow closely. It’s not my life. 

2 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

For a full rebuild.  Two after drafting your rookie  QB.

Or possibly three, depending upon what you see. That’s just me. The furious crowd can bring out the pitchforks any time they like. No skin off my nose. 

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

What is a "full" rebuild? 

 

It doesnt take 4 years to build a winner in the modern day NFL. If you aren't successful in 3 years you in all likelihood never will be. 

Yes same here.

 

 Im just suggesting if they have another lousy year chances are these guys will never be successful here.

 

I don’t think they’ve really had a “lousy” year yet. I suppose that depends upon you expectations. They broke the playoff drought, then took a step back year. Not shocking if you consider everything.

 

And I don’t think they should be tied too closely together. It seems like a tight package but no telling how it feels in the FO, especially if things trend downward. 

[LSHMEAB]

16 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I don’t think they’ve really had a “lousy” year yet. I suppose that depends upon you expectations. They broke the playoff drought, then took a step back year. Not shocking if you consider everything.

 

And I don’t think they should be tied too closely together. It seems like a tight package but no telling how it feels in the FO, especially if things trend downward. 

I think they(well, McDermott) deserves a ton of credit for ending the drought.

 

Having said that, we're talking (hypothetically) about following that up with two straight seasons in which they win 6 games. I'm not quite sure how that could be viewed as progress. 

 

I'm not pessimistic per se. I like a lot of what they've done and believe they're ready to compete. What I'm not down with is the idea that mediocrity in 2019 is part of some grand design. I think this team is capable of winning 10 games, so my expectations are relatively high. Where you, DB, and virtually all of us agree is that there probably won't be regime chance barring a DISASTER. I will personally be VERY discouraged if this team isn't in the hunt for a playoff spot well into the season.