John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[oldmanfan]

I wish we'd have kept Sammy.  That said he's not exactly setting the league on fire since the trade.

[SoTier]

 

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Regarding "if that's not your game"......ponder this:

 

If Harvard grad Ryan Fitzpatrick is such a smart person why hasn't he changed his game?

 

I would posit that the reason is because he ENJOYS playing the gunslinging style he plays and doesn't think he'd enjoy playing it any other way.

 

With his life prospects beyond the NFL........ he's not going to turn into "captain checkdown" for anyone.

 

And I'm not even saying it's entirely his choice...........the heart wants what it wants and in the split second environment of the pocket that part of his highly trained brain says the reward is worth the risk.   Ball pushed downfield into traffic.....dopamine released.

 

I'd also suggest that Tyrod Taylor doesn't ENJOY checking the ball down............I think he plays the game fearfully because he is afraid of losing his job........to me that's been reflected in some of his answers to questions about playing the position.

 

So "your game" isn't necessarily the only style you CAN play but it may be the only style you SHOULD or WILL play.

 

 

The history of the NFL is littered with QBs with tremendous physical talent who busted because they lacked the right psychological make up to enable them to succeed.   JP Losman always comes to mind when I think of a QB with great talent who just couldn't make the right play under pressure.  I think your description of why Fitzpatrick always ends up throwing INTs in key situations is perfect.  While Nate Peterman doesn't fit the scenario of having "tremendous physical talent" he has enough physical talent that he probably could have a productive career as an NFL backup QB if only he could keep himself from getting baited into trying to throw passes he can't possibly complete except to a defender in game action.  I'm convinced that's why Peterman can look so great in practice and even look decent in preseason games but comes apart in regular season games.

 

Allen doesn't seem to be saddled with the bad decision making that derailed Losman or that derails Fitzpatrick and Peterman but it's entirely possible -- very likely in fact -- that if or how well Allen can change/overcome his own psychological limitations will impact his success in the NFL.  Being physically able to throw accurate short passes is likely not one of Allen's problems, but being able to consistently throw short when his natural inclination is to chuck it downfield may very well be a serious problem for him.  Every young QB faces the same issue of overcoming psychological inclinations, so it's not something unique to Allen.   The ultimate "intrangible" -- psychological limitations/inclinations -- is what makes finding franchise QBs so difficult.

[GaryPinC]

For me, you can debate statistics and throwing styles all day, what comes down to a franchise quarterback is playing an effective, diverse enough throwing game to keep the defense guessing and having the sense when to take risks for a big play.  Even in his best year, I didn't feel like Tyrod had the sense to do this with the game on the line and it never improved.  Once he started losing accuracy on his long ball (2017) there were even less big plays from him and it really was going downhill before Cleveland condemned his potential as a starter last season.  TT also wasn't good at throwing people open, but did get better at back shoulder throws and hitting people in stride in tight coverage in shorter throws.  But he still seemed to shy away from tight coverage mid range.

 

I have hope with Allen because he certainly is not afraid to stick a ball in to tight coverage and do it successfully.  He showed me he will throw people open and I think he has that franchise QB sense when he needs to make a big play.  He definitely needs to improve his decision making and accuracy for the short game and that'll help open up his long chances. He missed a lot of throws last year but also had impressive accuracy at times.  I'm willing to believe his rawness accounted for the inconsistency.   So I'm pretty optimistic, he shouldn't just be a long thrower, and I expect him to diversify this season.  You can't be a one trick pony as a franchise QB. 

 

It's true many QB's can only change their game so much and my biggest worry about Allen coming in.  But he has so much talent and desire to win I came away feeling he can make enough changes to be that guy.  It'll be fun to watch this season.

 

No excuses about the game winner to Clay vs the Dolphins, the ball hit Clay above the waist 3 yards in the endzone.  He should have caught it.

[SoTier]

11 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I wish we'd have kept Sammy.  That said he's not exactly setting the league on fire since the trade.

 

Watkins' two teams since he was traded were loaded at WR, so he was never his QB's favorite target.  In LA, Cooper Kupp and Robert Woods were already established as Goff's go-to guys before Watkins joined the team.   In KC, Tyreek Hill was already established as the Chiefs' #1 WR.   Currently Hill's status is in limbo.  If Hill is suspended for some or all of the season, Watkins will likely become Mahomes' primary target, and he could very well "set the league on fire" in 2019.

[teef]

i still don't think the sammy trade was bad.  he's incredibly talented, yet still has yet to show that he can put up any real sort of production.  yet, people keep making excuses for him.  the problem wasn't trading him, the problem was not doing anything sufficient enough to try and fill that hole.  

[fergie's ire]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

 

If Harvard grad Ryan Fitzpatrick is such a smart person why hasn't he changed his game?

 

 

 

Actually, he did.  Think about who Fitzpatrick is.  He's smart, without a great arm.  He's the type of guy you would expect to be a captain checkdown game manager.  And that's what he was when he came into the league.  I remember an article when Fitzpatrick credited being on the scout team with creating a change in philosophy.  He said that in practice he was supposed to be Brett Favre...so he would make Brett Favre (risky, tight window) throws....and was surprised to find he would complete many of them...so he decided he could be a risk taker and take those shots in the game.  It was this CHANGE in philosophy that Fitzpatrick credited for his ability to transform from a lifetime backup to a starting quarterback for the Bills.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

20 hours ago, eball said:

 

Not even close.  The Bills gave up a low 3rd (#85) and 7th for a proven WR with production.  Benjamin obviously didn't pan out but it wasn't a crazy trade.

 

 

You have no credibility after saying this. 

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

16 hours ago, eball said:

 

If every other NFL GM and HC was scrutinized and nitpicked to death the way you have done to Beane and McD, I'm sure you'd find "a TON of errors" there as well.  It's a business in which the GM "hopes" to be right 50% of the time.  And if you're calling Josh Allen the beacon of hope, you could at least give Beane credit for maneuvering to get him.

 

Wahhhhh stop saying mean stuff about my team!

Edited June 6, 2019 by Chemical

[Gugny]

27 minutes ago, teef said:

i still don't think the sammy trade was bad.  he's incredibly talented, yet still has yet to show that he can put up any real sort of production.  yet, people keep making excuses for him.  the problem wasn't trading him, the problem was not doing anything sufficient enough to try and fill that hole.  

 

I agree.  I never had a problem with the trade.  They secured, in my opinion, a supremely talented WR.  The problem ended up being that he was a piss poor teammate who, in his three years as a Bill, played 16, 13 and 8 games/season.

 

I don't recall any pre-draft concerns about attitude and work ethic - which is why I've never had a problem with the trade..  If he wasn't such a jerk, he could have been a legitimate top WR in the league and he'd still be a Bill.  Unfortunately, Sam was a legend in his own mind before he proved a damn thing.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

There are 2 things about it that bother me:

 

1) the Bills could still have his rights today, as he'd be in year 1 of the franchise tag (or possibly even transition tagged)

 

2) he'd still be, far and away, the team's best WR today

I love Sammy as a wideout. Watched every college game he played. He was the best prospect coming out and I had no problems with the trade to move up and get him. 

 

But injuries have derailed him. And I think that, if we had kept him, given our sorry state on offense at the time,  he would have been even worse than the very pedestrian receiver he's been in LA and KC even while playing in superior systems, with superior coaches, and far superior QBs. 

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

I love Sammy as a wideout. Watched every college game he played. He was the best prospect coming out and I had no problems with the trade to move up and get him. 

 

But injuries have derailed him. And I think that, if we had kept him, given our sorry state on offense at the time,  he would have been even worse than the very pedestrian receiver he's been in LA and KC even while playing in superior systems, with superior coaches, and far superior QBs. 

 

That's a fairly likely scenario.

 

I just don't see the logic in trading him away only to turn around and trade 2 picks for Benjamin.

 

If the idea was simply to accumulate picks for the pursuit of QB1, so be it. Trading for Benjamin flew in the face of that.

 

Oh well, what's done is done. Time to focus on the possibly-better-than-2014 class of WRs coming up next April.

[oldmanfan]

59 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Watkins' two teams since he was traded were loaded at WR, so he was never his QB's favorite target.  In LA, Cooper Kupp and Robert Woods were already established as Goff's go-to guys before Watkins joined the team.   In KC, Tyreek Hill was already established as the Chiefs' #1 WR.   Currently Hill's status is in limbo.  If Hill is suspended for some or all of the season, Watkins will likely become Mahomes' primary target, and he could very well "set the league on fire" in 2019.

Or not.  As I said I wish we would have kept him, and we'll see how he does this season.  However, your response pretty much summarizes some of the back and forth going on in this thread.  It seems you want Sammy to succeed this year because that will give you an opportunity to criticize the current regime.  Much like in many of your posts you blast the current ownership for sins committed under Ralph's ownership.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by oldmanfan

[Bill from NYC]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The chances are that in order for the 2019 Bills offense to be successful it will be all about running the ball and big plays.

 

I have felt this way every season since the "glory years." This is the exact reason I am just so happy about Ford. If he is as good as I hope he is, he will make a HUGE impact, even (if not especially) at RG!

 

As you and all who attend the games know, weather can have a huge impact in Orchard park. I was at a game and saw Drew Bledsoe release a pass and the wind blew it backwards. I'm not talking about Trent Edwards now.  Running is a necessity and power running (because of the smaller defenses) is now VERY important imho.

 

Gore and Yeldon will gain considerable yards behind a powerful right side, especially with Allen being such a threat to go deep to Foster.

 

I still think there are a couple of missing pieces but this team might be good and exciting in 2019.

[K-9]

49 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Watkins' two teams since he was traded were loaded at WR, so he was never his QB's favorite target.  In LA, Cooper Kupp and Robert Woods were already established as Goff's go-to guys before Watkins joined the team.   In KC, Tyreek Hill was already established as the Chiefs' #1 WR.   Currently Hill's status is in limbo.  If Hill is suspended for some or all of the season, Watkins will likely become Mahomes' primary target, and he could very well "set the league on fire" in 2019.

Sammy was traded to the Rams two weeks into training camp. So you're saying Kupp and Woods had already established themselves as "go-to" guys based on what? Two weeks of camp, minicamp, and OTAs? With a new coach and an entirely new system? I don't buy that for a second. 

 

I'd like nothing more than to see Sammy light it up when he gets back. But I'm not convinced he's ever going to be 100% healthy again. This is evident to me when I watch him come out of his breaks; he simply lacks the same explosion he possessed previously because of his foot injuries. 

[Bill from NYC]

13 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I love Sammy as a wideout. Watched every college game he played. He was the best prospect coming out and I had no problems with the trade to move up and get him. 

 

I would have felt the same way if we had a quarterback. Thankfully there are receivers coming out in 2020 who look like they can be excellent players.

[K-9]

10 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

That's a fairly likely scenario.

 

I just don't see the logic in trading him away only to turn around and trade 2 picks for Benjamin.

 

If the idea was simply to accumulate picks for the pursuit of QB1, so be it. Trading for Benjamin flew in the face of that.

 

Oh well, what's done is done. Time to focus on the possibly-better-than-2014 class of WRs coming up next April.

Absolutely. Desperation isn't a solid footing for good football decisions. But they were and it bit them in the ass. And while KB's own unprofessional attitude is the main reason for his failure here, Beane owns that deal, regardless. 

[teef]

20 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I agree.  I never had a problem with the trade.  They secured, in my opinion, a supremely talented WR.  The problem ended up being that he was a piss poor teammate who, in his three years as a Bill, played 16, 13 and 8 games/season.

 

I don't recall any pre-draft concerns about attitude and work ethic - which is why I've never had a problem with the trade..  If he wasn't such a jerk, he could have been a legitimate top WR in the league and he'd still be a Bill.  Unfortunately, Sam was a legend in his own mind before he proved a damn thing.

i honestly don't have a problem with who he was as a teammate or his comments.  my problem was that he just wasn't productive considering his talent level.  he's on this third team, two of which have had top flight qbs, and he still hasn't produced to this potential.  could this year be his big numbers year?  hopefully for him, but there just can't be any more excuses.  posters on here who refuse to hear or make excuses for anyone on the bills, still defend sammy for some reason.  the chiefs are paying 16 mill a year for a guy that can't out produce zay jones.  it's gross.

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I would have felt the same way if we had a quarterback. Thankfully there are receivers coming out in 2020 who look like they can be excellent players.

Well, the Bills thought they had their QB at the time. We all know how that turned out, but EJ going into his second year was their guy, regardless. It was understandable why they wanted to get the best receiving prospect coming out to help his development. It didn't work out, far from it, but I don't want a GM who doubts himself and won't make deals based on "it might not work out." Can't run a team being afraid. 

[Bill from NYC]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Well, the Bills thought they had their QB at the time. We all know how that turned out, but EJ going into his second year was their guy, regardless. It was understandable why they wanted to get the best receiving prospect coming out to help his development. It didn't work out, far from it, but I don't want a GM who doubts himself and won't make deals based on "it might not work out." Can't run a team being afraid. 

Oh I see your point, but the worst GM (to me) is one who gives away the store with poor results. AKA Whaley.

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Bill from NYC

[Coach Tuesday]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

There are 2 things about it that bother me:

 

1) the Bills could still have his rights today, as he'd be in year 1 of the franchise tag (or possibly even transition tagged)

 

2) he'd still be, far and away, the team's best WR today

 

What about the fact that, as a direct result of that trade, they spent picks and money on Kelvin Benjamin and Corey Coleman (who got like $4 from Terry P. for about 2 weeks of preseason work)?

[416BillsFan]

1 hour ago, fergie's ire said:

Actually, he did.  Think about who Fitzpatrick is.  He's smart, without a great arm.  He's the type of guy you would expect to be a captain checkdown game manager.  And that's what he was when he came into the league.  I remember an article when Fitzpatrick credited being on the scout team with creating a change in philosophy.  He said that in practice he was supposed to be Brett Favre...so he would make Brett Favre (risky, tight window) throws....and was surprised to find he would complete many of them...so he decided he could be a risk taker and take those shots in the game.  It was this CHANGE in philosophy that Fitzpatrick credited for his ability to transform from a lifetime backup to a starting quarterback for the Bills.

Exactly. Hard to argue that a 7th round pick who's not the most athletically gifted QB can last 15 seasons in the NFL without adapting and changing.

[Cripple Creek]

1 hour ago, Chemical said:

You have no credibility after saying this. 

Nice. When did you get elected to be the boss of me?

[Jauronimo]

15 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

Nice. When did you get elected to be the boss of me?

There are no elections since 2017 when no one ran for the position.  We tried to leave you on the steps of the fire department but you found your way back.  Since then "Boss of You" has been assigned to the TBD member with the lowest blood alcohol content and cleanest urine.

[ColoradoBills]

LOL, so it's back to the Tyrod/Sammy debate?

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

Oh I see your point, but the worst GM (to me) is one who gives away the store with poor results. AKA Whaley.

 

I hear ya, but the key word is “results.” Had EJ developed and Sammy became an All Pro, we wouldn’t be saying he gave away the store. Oh, there might be a few stragglers clinging to the idea that Whaley gave up too much, just as there were after Bennett became a star back in the day.

 

But I submit we’d all be pretty happy if it worked out. 

[Shaw66]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Regarding "if that's not your game"......ponder this:

 

If Harvard grad Ryan Fitzpatrick is such a smart person why hasn't he changed his game?

 

I would posit that the reason is because he ENJOYS playing the gunslinging style he plays and doesn't think he'd enjoy playing it any other way.

 

With his life prospects beyond the NFL........ he's not going to turn into "captain checkdown" for anyone.

 

And I'm not even saying it's entirely his choice...........the heart wants what it wants and in the split second environment of the pocket that part of his highly trained brain says the reward is worth the risk.   Ball pushed downfield into traffic.....dopamine released.

 

I'd also suggest that Tyrod Taylor doesn't ENJOY checking the ball down............I think he plays the game fearfully because he is afraid of losing his job........to me that's been reflected in some of his answers to questions about playing the position.

 

So "your game" isn't necessarily the only style you CAN play but it may be the only style you SHOULD or WILL play.

 

This point of view is foolish.   You suggest that players don't change, which is totally wrong.  Aaron Rodgers today is NOT the QB  he was when he came out of college.  Nor is Brady, nor Roethlisberger. 

 

But if you really believe that Allen is gunslinger who never will be happy playing a possession passing game, then you MUST believe that either McDermott should be fired or the Bills should move on from Allen, because McD wants a ball-control passer and Allen can never be one.   What's the point of continuing with a mismatched head coach and QB?

 

 

28 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I hear ya, but the key word is “results.” Had EJ developed and Sammy became an All Pro, we wouldn’t be saying he gave away the store. Oh, there might be a few stragglers clinging to the idea that Whaley gave up too much, just as there were after Bennett became a star back in the day.

 

But I submit we’d all be pretty happy if it worked out. 

Well, of course we'd all be pretty happy, but that would be because Whaley was right instead of wrong on many of his decisions.  The fact is, he was wrong, and that's why he doesn't have a job.  

 

GMs are evaluated on how their decisions work out.   Sometimes they work out well, sometimes badly, but if the sum total doesn't result in wins and playoffs appearances, the GM is getting fired.  That's what happened to Whaley.

 

EVERY GM would still have his job if his team won all the time. 

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Chemical said:

You have no credibility after saying this. 

I disagree...KB HAS had past production...it was not a far cry to think he could re achieve it in a new location...it does happen.

[oldmanfan]

13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This point of view is foolish.   You suggest that players don't change, which is totally wrong.  Aaron Rodgers today is NOT the QB  he was when he came out of college.  Nor is Brady, nor Roethlisberger. 

 

But if you really believe that Allen is gunslinger who never will be happy playing a possession passing game, then you MUST believe that either McDermott should be fired or the Bills should move on from Allen, because McD wants a ball-control passer and Allen can never be one.   What's the point of continuing with a mismatched head coach and QB?

 

 

Well, of course we'd all be pretty happy, but that would be because Whaley was right instead of wrong on many of his decisions.  The fact is, he was wrong, and that's why he doesn't have a job.  

 

GMs are evaluated on how their decisions work out.   Sometimes they work out well, sometimes badly, but if the sum total doesn't result in wins and playoffs appearances, the GM is getting fired.  That's what happened to Whaley.

 

EVERY GM would still have his job if his team won all the time. 

Shaw, it's like talking to a brick wall.  The guy you're arguing with claims Allen can't throw short, then claims he should only throw long.  And I am willing to bet if we went back to look at posts after games from last year he criticized Allen for NOT throwing short. 

 

There are some here who, for whatever reason, think it's somehow fun to reflexively criticize each and every decision made by the Bills front office and coaching staff.  I have no idea why.  They have this bizarre, misguided idea that every single decision made by a leader of an organization has to be correct, every single time,  or you're a failure.  There has never been any organization in the history of mankind that can match that standard, yet some here think it should be so for the BIlls.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

12 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I disagree...KB HAS had past production...it was not a far cry to think he could re achieve it in a new location...it does happen.

 

In the context of giving Beane EXTRA credit for getting a 3rd for Tyrod?

 

i can’t believe this is even an argument somebody is saying. You really have to be biased to defend the Benjamin trade. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Chemical

[Punching Bag]

On 6/4/2019 at 8:34 AM, BringBackFergy said:

He’s not a shill. The guy writes a good story. Y’all need to relax.  We have bigger fish to fry, such as: What the hell is wrong with Dawson Knox??!!

 

If there was a story JW would have pursued it.  Hopefully Knox is smart and bought private insurance vs injury since he is not signed yet.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Chemical said:

 

In the context of giving Beane EXTRA credit for getting a 3rd for Tyrod?

Now I am thinking I read the thead wrong....I do certainly think Beane did great getting a 3rd for Tyrod

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Now I am thinking I read the thead wrong....I do certainly think Beane did great getting a 3rd for Tyrod

 Me too! But you also have to ding him for the Benjamin trade. They cancel each other out at the very least. 

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Shaw, it's like talking to a brick wall.  The guy you're arguing with claims Allen can't throw short, then claims he should only throw long.  And I am willing to bet if we went back to look at posts after games from last year he criticized Allen for NOT throwing short. 

 

There are some here who, for whatever reason, think it's somehow fun to reflexively criticize each and every decision made by the Bills front office and coaching staff.  I have no idea why.  They have this bizarre, misguided idea that every single decision made by a leader of an organization has to be correct, every single time,  or you're a failure.  There has never been any organization in the history of mankind that can match that standard, yet some here think it should be so for the BIlls.

Yeah, I get it.  I was responding mostly for others who might be reading his stuff and actually buying it.  

 

I think the notion that Allen can't throw short, or won't is silly, and I think that will be very clear as soon as the season starts.  McDermott has been very clear about what he wants, and Allen is the kind of guy who does what the coach wants him to do.  

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Chemical said:

 Me too! But you also have to ding him for the Benjamin trade. They cancel each other out at the very least. 

See this is where we differ on this....I dont look at this in plus/minus

 

They took a swing on the KB trade...I dont fault them at all for taking it......it did not work out.....we have had plenty of draft picks to use its not like Beane is wasting his picks

[Phil The Thrill]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I agree.  I never had a problem with the trade.  They secured, in my opinion, a supremely talented WR.  The problem ended up being that he was a piss poor teammate who, in his three years as a Bill, played 16, 13 and 8 games/season.

 

I don't recall any pre-draft concerns about attitude and work ethic - which is why I've never had a problem with the trade..  If he wasn't such a jerk, he could have been a legitimate top WR in the league and he'd still be a Bill.  Unfortunately, Sam was a legend in his own mind before he proved a damn thing.

 

I knew at the time it was a high-risk/high-reward pick.  The problem I had with the decision were the circumstances around it.  It appeared that Whaley made this move to double-down on EJ (who people had major concerns about at QB).  Also it’s been reported that this was Doug’s way of trying to make a big splash to impress new ownership.  

 

Both of these factors made me think th Sammy trade was a reckless and poor decision and pointed out some of the well-publicized flaws of Doug Whaley & co in the draft. 

[Punching Bag]

On 6/4/2019 at 10:42 AM, oldmanfan said:

To me it all started with Tom Donahoe.  Ralph reached outside the organization for him, and when he didn't succeed Ralph (or maybe Litman; I think the great untold story in the 17 year failure was Litman's influence on an aging owner) was not going to go outside again.  So that begat Marv, who had no business being a GM, who hired Jauron, who proved the point that a great coordinator doesn't make a great HC, which begat Nix, and so on, and so on.

 

That's why I divorce anything that has happened since the Pegulas took over from done under Ralph.  They've made their share of mistakes (Rex???), but it's comparing apples and oranges.

 

Marv was brought in to repair relations with fans.  He did not do any of the scouting or evaluations. The decision on hiring of HC was above his head just like it was with Whaley.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

See this is where we differ on this....I dont look at this in plus/minus

 

They took a swing on the KB trade...I dont fault them at all for taking it......it did not work out.....we have had plenty of draft picks to use its not like Beane is wasting his picks

 

It doesn’t matter if you don’t fault him. You may as well be saying you’re a flat earther to me at this point. It was a bad trade. He was at fault by definition.

 

It’s something that happened not the end of the world but at least admit the most obvious mistakes for Chrissakes

 

Also: that’s exactly what he did. Wasted a pick and having benjamin on the field was a NEGATIVE value. 

7 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

I knew at the time it was a high-risk/high-reward pick.  The problem I had with the decision were the circumstances around it.  It appeared that Whaley made this move to double-down on EJ (who people had major concerns about at QB).  Also it’s been reported that this was Doug’s way of trying to make a big splash to impress new ownership.  

 

Both of these factors made me think th Sammy trade was a reckless and poor decision and pointed out some of the well-publicized flaws of Doug Whaley & co in the draft. 

 

Sammy is better than any wr we have had since by a long shot. 

 

The chiefs had hill and kelce but still added him because that’s what real offenses have, weapons. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Chemical

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 Me too! But you also have to ding him for the Benjamin trade. They cancel each other out at the very least. 

I think it's pointless to try to keep a scorecard like this.

 

GMs make dozens, if not hundreds, of personnel decision every year, and if you measure them based on whether the player became at least a solid contributor, most of the decisions made by EVERY GM were wrong.   

 

GMs make their decisions for a variety of reasons.  They make them on imperfect information.  And the success a player achieves sometimes depends on the players around him.   So grading GMs on any one player decision is pointless.

 

The only way to grade a GM is on his collective body of work.  Did the team improve, and by how much?   Then, in an effort to explain why he succeeded or failed, the story becomes either look at all the good decisions he made to get the team over the hump or look at all the bad decisions he made that failed to fix the team.  When a team is in the middle of a serious rebuild, as the Bills are, you can list deals that worked or didn't, for sure, but it really doesn't matter.  The only question is whether the team is going to get better, and that question is currently unanswered.   You can argue about whether decisions so far have been good or bad, about how you and I might have done things differently, but there are no answers to those arguments, because the story hasn't played out yet.  

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think it's pointless to try to keep a scorecard like this.

 

GMs make dozens, if not hundreds, of personnel decision every year, and if you measure them based on whether the player became at least a solid contributor, most of the decisions made by EVERY GM were wrong.   

 

GMs make their decisions for a variety of reasons.  They make them on imperfect information.  And the success a player achieves sometimes depends on the players around him.   So grading GMs on any one player decision is pointless.

 

The only way to grade a GM is on his collective body of work.  Did the team improve, and by how much?   Then, in an effort to explain why he succeeded or failed, the story becomes either look at all the good decisions he made to get the team over the hump or look at all the bad decisions he made that failed to fix the team.  When a team is in the middle of a serious rebuild, as the Bills are, you can list deals that worked or didn't, for sure, but it really doesn't matter.  The only question is whether the team is going to get better, and that question is currently unanswered.   You can argue about whether decisions so far have been good or bad, about how you and I might have done things differently, but there are no answers to those arguments, because the story hasn't played out yet.  

 

We are talking about Kelvin Benjamin. 

 

He’s a fat wide receiver. 

 

AND it was in the context of someone giving Beane praise for getting a 3rd for Tyrod. I can agree with what you said but you can’t also give CREDIT for a single move when you’re not willing to criticize for an almost perfectly inverse transaction. 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Chemical

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

It doesn’t matter if you don’t fault him. You may as well be saying you’re a flat earther to me at this point. It was a bad trade. He was at fault by definition.

 

 

You may have thought it was a bad trade at the time.   Others didn't.   It wasn't obviously a bad trade at the time; their were plenty of people excited about and who thought Benjy was the perfect receiver to get for Taylor.   But I'm absolutely certain that Beane had good reasons for doing it.   It just turned out that some of the things he thought were true about Benjamin (from his prior experiences with him) turned out not be true.  So his judgments turned out to be wrong.    Yours has no doubt been wrong on plenty of other decisions.   It happens.  

2 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

We are talking about Kelvin Benjamin. 

 

He’s a fat wide receiver. 

 

AND it was in the context of someone giving Beane praise for getting a 3rd for Tyrod. I can agree with what you said but you can’t also give credit for a single move. 

 

I agree.  Giving credit for a single move makes no more sense than dissing the guy for a single bad move.   In either case, it's like calling a ball player great or a loser after he (1) homers or (2) strikes out.   One event is not the measure of either a hitter or a GM.