Bills host OG Quinton Spain from Titans***Update...SIGNED***

[thebandit27]

4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

 

FWIW, In his "Welcome Aboard" presser he stated that he can play RG LG and C.

 

Cool. That's even better. 

 

Gotta figure that between Mongo, Long, and Bodine you've got your starting RG and game day interior backup spot covered.

[3rdand12]

5 hours ago, Logic said:

This is probably my 2nd favorite signing of free agency.

Morse was 1st, obviously. John Brown and Cole Beasley were both great additions, too. 

At the end of the day, though, it's all about keeping Allen upright. Spain will be a day 1 starting LG for the Bills, will help Dawkins to perform better at LT, and is excellent in pass protection. By adding Morse and Spain, the Bills added two guaranteed starters and upgrades to their line. We'll see about the others (Nsekhe, Feliciano, et al).

yes ,yes and yes.

Morse and Spain just fixed the interior perhaps. Favorite signing in reasonings , theory and most likely results from Beane

Allen should be buying them  Timex watches  right now. don't wait till Christmas to thank them.
all the O line men in the room. just in case, cover your base.

[3rdand12]

5 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I think Beane wants to see how guys perform first.  Some will be extended and some shuttled out to continue upgrading next year.

Agreed,
 but what sold Spain to accept a prove it deal ?
as i mentioned , my feeling was he had some leverage due to his performance. The amount of sacks allowed is fairly impressive imho.

 

and pass pro might be more important to Josh than run game at this point in his development : )

[oldmanfan]

30 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Agreed,
 but what sold Spain to accept a prove it deal ?
as i mentioned , my feeling was he had some leverage due to his performance. The amount of sacks allowed is fairly impressive imho.

 

and pass pro might be more important to Josh than run game at this point in his development : )

Maybe he didn't get the offers he expected

[VW82]

I don't know what to think about this one. Clearly he has some name recognition, and at one point was thought to be a good player. Anyone watch enough Titans to know why his play dipped? Apparently he's not the same run blocker anymore, or so the scouts say.

 

Obviously worth a flyer on a one year deal. Anyone see the terms yet?

 

I guess my only real gripe with all these bargain bin signings is it's looking more and more like we're not going to invest a high draft pick in the OL this year. Last year the biggest problem was plain old lack of talent, and you don't close that gap much in FA. There's a reason why all these guys were available.  

Edited April 4, 2019 by VW82

[Doc]

6 minutes ago, VW82 said:

I don't know what to think about this one. Clearly he has some name recognition, and at one point was thought to be a good player. Anyone watch enough Titans to know why his play dipped? Apparently he's not the same run blocker anymore, or so the scouts say.

 

Obviously worth a flyer on a one year deal. Anyone see the terms yet?

 

I guess my only real gripe with all these bargain bin signings is it's looking more and more like we're not going to invest a high draft pick in the OL this year. Last year the biggest problem was plain old lack of talent, and you don't close that gap much in FA. There's a reason why all these guys were available.  

 

I disagree that you can't close the gap much in FA and it's not like there's far to go to upgrade the talent on the OL from last year.  But Spain and Morse should get the Bills back to Incog-Wood level play and that will help Dawkins return to promising 2017 form.  Nsekhe was an unknown to me but after they signed him and I looked at him play, he should prove to be a big upgrade over Mills.  As for RG, not sure who will win that spot (I think Long), but Miller was a disaster and anyone of the guys they brought in will be an upgrade.

[MrEpsYtown]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I definitely think that there's the potential to deal Bodine to a team that's desperate for a starting center. New Orleans, for instance, lost Unger to retirement. 

 

I'm curious about Feliciano though; the only scouting I've ever seen on him was at guard.  Did he play center at the U?

 

2 hours ago, Dopey said:

Checked a couple UM bios and no mention of playing center. Mainly lg, but time at rg and tackle too.

 

Yep no center at Miami. I think it was Mike Tice two or three years ago who decided he needed to learn center. He's been their second team center since then. Rodney Hudson doesn't really miss many games, but Feliciano got some reps when Hudson got injured in that Raiders-Texans Connor Cook playoff game. So yep, he can play center. 

[MrEpsYtown]

30 minutes ago, VW82 said:

I don't know what to think about this one. Clearly he has some name recognition, and at one point was thought to be a good player. Anyone watch enough Titans to know why his play dipped? Apparently he's not the same run blocker anymore, or so the scouts say.

 

Obviously worth a flyer on a one year deal. Anyone see the terms yet?

 

I guess my only real gripe with all these bargain bin signings is it's looking more and more like we're not going to invest a high draft pick in the OL this year. Last year the biggest problem was plain old lack of talent, and you don't close that gap much in FA. There's a reason why all these guys were available.  

 

I know they are inbred poll cheaters, but generally a lot Titan fans seem to think the scheme change in Tennessee really hurt him. I think he is a power scheme player, who can play some zone. That's what he excelled at early and at WV. Feliciano, Spain, Long...these guys are all road graders. Morse is scheme versatile. 

[VW82]

2 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

I know they are inbred poll cheaters, but generally a lot Titan fans seem to think the scheme change in Tennessee really hurt him. I think he is a power scheme player, who can play some zone. That's what he excelled at early and at WV. Feliciano, Spain, Long...these guys are all road graders. Morse is scheme versatile. 

 

Do we know yet what we're running? I guess based on the signings probably not zone. I have no idea what to make of Bobby Johnson given that he's mostly been an assistant...and a tight ends coach?? 

16 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I disagree that you can't close the gap much in FA and it's not like there's far to go to upgrade the talent on the OL from last year.  But Spain and Morse should get the Bills back to Incog-Wood level play and that will help Dawkins return to promising 2017 form.  Nsekhe was an unknown to me but after they signed him and I looked at him play, he should prove to be a big upgrade over Mills.  As for RG, not sure who will win that spot (I think Long), but Miller was a disaster and anyone of the guys they brought in will be an upgrade.

 

I suppose even if we're just competent it'll be a huge upgrade lol. Perhaps some of these guys will surprise in camp. I still wish we'd draft a stud. Good lines make such a difference. 

[MrEpsYtown]

Forget about PFF grades. Really good stuff here:

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Cover_1_/status/1113848678073151488

24 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

Do we know yet what we're running? I guess based on the signings probably not zone. I have no idea what to make of Bobby Johnson given that he's mostly been an assistant...and a tight ends coach?? 

 

 

I think it will be a mix of both, but the style of zone game that Castillo was teaching was just so passive. I hope we see something similar to what Johnson was doing as an assistant in Indy, which was mostly power run stuff. Based on the interior guys we signed, signing a tackle to play tight end, and the fact that Indy and NE ate us alive with power run, I think we see more power stuff. 

[Doc]

25 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 I suppose even if we're just competent it'll be a huge upgrade lol. Perhaps some of these guys will surprise in camp. I still wish we'd draft a stud. Good lines make such a difference. 

 

Easier said than done.

[MrEpsYtown]

38 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

I suppose even if we're just competent it'll be a huge upgrade lol. Perhaps some of these guys will surprise in camp. I still wish we'd draft a stud. Good lines make such a difference. 

 

There are no studs in this draft. A bunch of interesting prospects who each have some flaw. No Quentin Nelson this year. A guy like Chris Lindstrom's upside isn't really any greater than Wyatt Teller's or Spencer Long's when he was coming out. Jonah Williams etc all have major flaws. Maybe Taylor is the stud, but he needs work as well. We got two studs in Morse and in Spain. They are better than any player who could have been drafted this year. Dawkins has the upside and  potential to be a stud. Long is a former third round pick who was touted as the next Incongnito at guard. Feliciano is a former mid round guy who developed under Mike Tice. Waddle is a guy who has been developed by the best line coach in the NFL. Even Nsehke is a guy who filled in for a top three NFL tackle and played well. So they aren't all studs, but they have some shine and upside. Aside from Nsehke, they are all young in their prime players with a ton of experience. And that is the best thing you can provide to a young quarterback. Rookie linemen ain't helping the young quarterback. Having these young, experienced guys on the line gives you the best of both worlds. 

 

The Titans drafted stud tackles in the top ten and they still suck. I like Beane's plan better. 

[YoloinOhio]

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

The whole chemical meltdown thing has sidetracked the thread.  

 

Do we know how much Spain is getting paid yet?

I haven’t seen any numbers yet 

[njbuff]

I still wouldn't be surprised if Lindstrom or Nate Davis are in the Bills draft plans.

[Mat68]

Picking at 9, if their was a stud lineman available in this draft I wonder if Beanes approach would be different?  Personally, I dont see value picking one at 9.  Maybe 40.  The offense needs some impact skill players to go with the role players they brought in.  I think they like Teller, so all they need is a guy to develop to take over RT. 

[CSBill]

15 hours ago, Logic said:

I agree on all counts. Most Bills fans are sleeping on Spencer Long, in my opinion. I think Long, if allowed to just compete for a starting guard spot, will win said spot. I think an interior three of Spain, Morse, and Long will be of high quality and high production. They're all still on the right side of 30, too. Training camp is going to be extremely interesting with respect to offensive line battles. While I like Long a lot and think he can return to being an effective starting guard in this league, I also like Wyatt Teller and Ike Boettger. In an ideal world, we could start Spain and Long at guard (assuming they win the competition), and still find a way to roster Teller and Boettger. Then, when Spain's one year deal is up, you can decide if either Teller or Boettger have shown enough in development to let Spain walk.

 

This, I agree with. They might add a draft pick to that competition, but these signings allow Teller and Boettger to develop. If one of them develops quickly enough to replace one of the new FAs, then great. If not, we have three new guys that are NFL quality.

[Juice_32]

10 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I disagree that you can't close the gap much in FA and it's not like there's far to go to upgrade the talent on the OL from last year.  But Spain and Morse should get the Bills back to Incog-Wood level play and that will help Dawkins return to promising 2017 form.  Nsekhe was an unknown to me but after they signed him and I looked at him play, he should prove to be a big upgrade over Mills.  As for RG, not sure who will win that spot (I think Long), but Miller was a disaster and anyone of the guys they brought in will be an upgrade.

 

I agree on Nsekhe. Waddle is an upgrade over Mills too IMO.

 

Mills was frustrating because he’d play well for stretches, but when he was bad, he was really bad. His whiffs in pass protection always seemed to be drive killers at the worst possible moments. More consistency at RT is going to do wonders for the offense.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Juice_32

[MrEpsYtown]

2 hours ago, Mat68 said:

Picking at 9, if their was a stud lineman available in this draft I wonder if Beanes approach would be different?  Personally, I dont see value picking one at 9.  Maybe 40.  The offense needs some impact skill players to go with the role players they brought in.  I think they like Teller, so all they need is a guy to develop to take over RT. 

 

The only linemen I have really strong feelings for is Risner. If he is there at 40, I take him. Or if I need to trade up a bit I still take him. He is the perfect fit. 

[CaptnCoke11]

I’m not so sure they will even draft an OL until very late.  Already have more than enough on roster and will carry 9/10 on roster.  Maybe a later round development guy to put on PS for a year

[Bockeye]

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/24/nfl-draft-combine-offensive-tackles-history

 

Cautionary tale of picking OL early in the draft.  Article is from 2016 but still very relevant.

 

"1. Recent history is very ugly. In the past 10 years, there have been five tackles chosen either first or second overall. Above-average starting tackles today among those five: zero."

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

14 minutes ago, Bockeye said:

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/24/nfl-draft-combine-offensive-tackles-history

 

Cautionary tale of picking OL early in the draft.  Article is from 2016 but still very relevant.

 

"1. Recent history is very ugly. In the past 10 years, there have been five tackles chosen either first or second overall. Above-average starting tackles today among those five: zero."

 

I mean - what is the bust rate at other positions? 

 

In 2016 there were 7 Olinemen in the first round: Stanley, Conklin, Tunsil, Decker, kelly, garnett, and ifedi.  6/7 are starters.

In 2017 there were 2: Bolles and Ramczyk.  Both starters.

In 2018 there were 6 in the 1st: Nelson, McGlinchey, Miller, Ragnow, Price, and Wynn.  All are starters (Wynn was hurt but is projected to start in 2019)

 

Not only do almost all of those guys play.  A lot of them are really good.  Seems almost like 1st round O-lineman have a pretty high contribution rate.

Edited April 5, 2019 by dneveu

[MrEpsYtown]

36 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I mean - what is the bust rate at other positions? 

 

In 2016 there were 7 Olinemen in the first round: Stanley, Conklin, Tunsil, Decker, kelly, garnett, and ifedi.  6/7 are starters.

In 2017 there were 2: Bolles and Ramczyk.  Both starters.

In 2018 there were 6 in the 1st: Nelson, McGlinchey, Miller, Ragnow, Price, and Wynn.  All are starters (Wynn was hurt but is projected to start in 2019)

 

Not only do almost all of those guys play.  A lot of them are really good.  Seems almost like 1st round O-lineman have a pretty high contribution rate.

 

Those are all guys on rookie contracts. That's why they play. They are all going to be starters at this point as teams give them a shot. You have to go back a bit to see the terrible. You also have to try and fast forward and project how many of these guys will be around after their rookie contracts. Out of all of those guys Stanley, Ramczyk, and Nelson are elite players. Miller was also already replaced and moved to RT. Ifedi and Garnett are not good and Conklin is always hurt. Bolles is terrible and the Broncos regret the pick. Price was really bad for the Bengals and they are already regretting the pick and wishing they could have Bodine back. You just have to find the right guys and drafting guys high, who are not elite is a mistake.  

 

[CookieG]

14 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Forget about PFF grades. Really good stuff here:

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Cover_1_/status/1113848678073151488

 

I think it will be a mix of both, but the style of zone game that Castillo was teaching was just so passive. I hope we see something similar to what Johnson was doing as an assistant in Indy, which was mostly power run stuff. Based on the interior guys we signed, signing a tackle to play tight end, and the fact that Indy and NE ate us alive with power run, I think we see more power stuff. 

Better stuff here...from the same source (I didn't see it posted.)

 

https://www.cover1.net/quinton-spain/2/

 

A really nice breakdown of the good and the bad. It focuses mostly on run blocking. Its easy to see how going to a ZBS hurt him.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Those are all guys on rookie contracts. That's why they play. They are all going to be starters at this point as teams give them a shot. You have to go back a bit to see the terrible. You also have to try and fast forward and project how many of these guys will be around after their rookie contracts. Out of all of those guys Stanley, Ramczyk, and Nelson are elite players. Miller was also already replaced and moved to RT. Ifedi and Garnett are not good and Conklin is always hurt. Bolles is terrible and the Broncos regret the pick. Price was really bad for the Bengals and they are already regretting the pick and wishing they could have Bodine back. You just have to find the right guys and drafting guys high, who are not elite is a mistake.  

 

 

Conklin missed 7 games last year and never missed a game before that.  He was also 1st team all-pro as a rookie.  

 

Bolles was a 2nd year LT and they had to shuffle quite a bit with injuries - but his penalty numbers are pretty alarming.  I'm not sold either, but he's probably as good as Dawkins - just drafted much higher.  The regret is picking him up over ramczyk.  

Miller was drafted to play RT, so maybe it'll work for him?  Only a 2nd year player and they just paid a ton to upgrade at LT.  

 

Price was lucky to go in round 1 after a torn pec, and he missed some time with a foot injury.  Everyone else on that team got hurt but he definitely wasn't very good last year.  They can probably have Bodine back if they want him ?

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Bockeye said:

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/24/nfl-draft-combine-offensive-tackles-history

 

Cautionary tale of picking OL early in the draft.  Article is from 2016 but still very relevant.

 

"1. Recent history is very ugly. In the past 10 years, there have been five tackles chosen either first or second overall. Above-average starting tackles today among those five: zero."

 

I'd say Eric Fisher is "above average." I wouldn't say he is any better than that, but he is above average.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Conklin missed 7 games last year and never missed a game before that.  He was also 1st team all-pro as a rookie.  

 

Bolles was a 2nd year LT and they had to shuffle quite a bit with injuries - but his penalty numbers are pretty alarming.  I'm not sold either, but he's probably as good as Dawkins - just drafted much higher.  The regret is picking him up over ramczyk.  

Miller was drafted to play RT, so maybe it'll work for him?  Only a 2nd year player and they just paid a ton to upgrade at LT.  

 

Price was lucky to go in round 1 after a torn pec, and he missed some time with a foot injury.  Everyone else on that team got hurt but he definitely wasn't very good last year.  They can probably have Bodine back if they want him ?

 

MrEps isn't a Conklin guy he and I have discussed him before. I like Conklin and he has had one injury that can happen to anyone. I think he was worth pick Tenn used on him if that had been their pick. They traded UP to pick him though, which I am a little more critical of, but he can play and is a very good tackle.

 

Bolles I was extremely wary of in the draft and I am not surprised at all that he has struggled. Miller stinks. I wouldn't have picked him before day 3. Taking him in the first round was laughable. His technique is the definition of sloppy.

 

I thought Price went too early but was surprised just how much he struggled. Maybe he was playing hurt a bit, am more in a wait and see on that one but for me he wasn't a first round pick either.

 

In fact of that four I think 3 were reaches to select in the 1st round.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

MrEps isn't a Conklin guy he and I have discussed him before. I like Conklin and he has had one injury that can happen to anyone. I think he was worth pick Tenn used on him if that had been their pick. They traded UP to pick him though, which I am a little more critical of, but he can play and is a very good tackle.

 

Bolles I was extremely wary of in the draft and I am not surprised at all that he has struggled. Miller stinks. I wouldn't have picked him before day 3. Taking him in the first round was laughable. His technique is the definition of sloppy.

 

I thought Price went too early but was surprised just how much he struggled. Maybe he was playing hurt a bit, am more in a wait and see on that one but for me he wasn't a first round pick either.

 

In fact of that four I think 3 were reaches to select in the 1st round.

 

With Miller i know nothing, I haven't watched a raiders game in a while.  I just read through a scouting report and it's a bit bizarre that he went in the 1st.  Like no production, lots of injuries... Must've been a workout warrior.

[Kelly the Dog]

It’s impossible to know, it’s easy to argue against, but the optimist in me can see an advantage in all new guys, as vets, with a new coach, being able to gel quicker because they are all starting from same place, together, versus 3-4 guys who played together for a couple years in one system under same coach trying to learn a new way with 1-2 additions, likely rookies, which is the way it normally happens. 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

It’s impossible to know, it’s easy to argue against, but the optimist in me can see an advantage in all new guys, as vets, with a new coach, being able to gel quicker because they are all starting from same place, together, versus 3-4 guys who played together for a couple years in one system under same coach trying to learn a new way with 1-2 additions, likely rookies, which is the way it normally happens. 

 

 

It's also easy to understand how some on the outside can wonder WTF are they doing though?    How do you sign 6 UFA OL?   Indulgent and impulsive might be what we'd call it if it were the Jets or Dolphins doing it.   

 

Comes down to the coaching...........really good coaches can organize a new team quickly.    And for the Bills the offensive side of the ball is going to be almost like a first year unit.   And it's not like it will be lead by a 10 year vet at QB.    A lot of weight on Daboll and Bobby Johnson shoulders this year.    If Daboll turns that group into a top 10-15 offense he just might get a HC job.

[thebandit27]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's also easy to understand how some on the outside can wonder WTF are they doing though?    How do you sign 6 UFA OL?   Indulgent and impulsive might be what we'd call it if it were the Jets or Dolphins doing it.   

 

Comes down to the coaching...........really good coaches can organize a new team quickly.    And for the Bills the offensive side of the ball is going to be almost like a first year unit.   And it's not like it will be lead by a 10 year vet at QB.    A lot of weight on Daboll and Bobby Johnson shoulders this year.    If Daboll turns that group into a top 10-15 offense he just might get a HC job.

 

Agreed.

 

I think the approach makes a lot of sense: gather up a group of versatile linemen with starting experience, add a stud center, and let the coaches sort things out.

 

Regarding Daboll, I think the bar may be even lower than that.  If the offense is anywhere near 15th he will probably get looks.

[Kelly the Dog]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's also easy to understand how some on the outside can wonder WTF are they doing though?    How do you sign 6 UFA OL?   Indulgent and impulsive might be what we'd call it if it were the Jets or Dolphins doing it.   

 

Comes down to the coaching...........really good coaches can organize a new team quickly.    And for the Bills the offensive side of the ball is going to be almost like a first year unit.   And it's not like it will be lead by a 10 year vet at QB.    A lot of weight on Daboll and Bobby Johnson shoulders this year.    If Daboll turns that group into a top 10-15 offense he just might get a HC job.

Yep. Huge overhaul. Out of necessity though. 8 of our OL were awful. All but one or two of our WR and TE were awful. Not just bad; awful. 

[John from Riverside]

19 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's also easy to understand how some on the outside can wonder WTF are they doing though?    How do you sign 6 UFA OL?   Indulgent and impulsive might be what we'd call it if it were the Jets or Dolphins doing it.   

 

Comes down to the coaching...........really good coaches can organize a new team quickly.    And for the Bills the offensive side of the ball is going to be almost like a first year unit.   And it's not like it will be lead by a 10 year vet at QB.    A lot of weight on Daboll and Bobby Johnson shoulders this year.    If Daboll turns that group into a top 10-15 offense he just might get a HC job.

Makes me feel better that they are all veterans.....who "should" gel more quickly

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, dneveu said:

 

With Miller i know nothing, I haven't watched a raiders game in a while.  I just read through a scouting report and it's a bit bizarre that he went in the 1st.  Like no production, lots of injuries... Must've been a workout warrior.

 

Yeah Miller blew up the combine. I not saying he's going to be terrible, there is upside, but he needs a ton of work. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by MrEpsYtown

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Yeah Miller blew up the combine. I not saying he's going to be terrible, there is upside, but he needs a ton of work. 

 

Whereas I am saying he is going to be terrible. 

[MrEpsYtown]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Whereas I am saying he is going to be terrible. 

 

Yep. The pre draft fascination with him was weird. Not that different than Connor McDermott as a prospect. 

[Mat68]

From what I've seen he is a pretty good run blocker at the POA.  He also gets good movement.  I think he is the probable LG.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Yep. The pre draft fascination with him was weird. Not that different than Connor McDermott as a prospect. 

 

wonder if it was a Mckenzie pick, or a gruden pick?

[MrEpsYtown]

46 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

From what I've seen he is a pretty good run blocker at the POA.  He also gets good movement.  I think he is the probable LG.  

 

Hes got some nasty in him too, which is something you get from Feliciano and Long as well. Sometimes from Morse too. I like the mentality we are building with this line. 

[Victory Formation]

Quenton is traveling tonight on a plane.

I can see the red tail lights headed for Spain.

Lord I miss Quenton.

Lord I miss him so much.

[Nanker]

9 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

The only linemen I have really strong feelings for is Risner. If he is there at 40, I take him. Or if I need to trade up a bit I still take him. He is the perfect fit. 

I just became a fan.