Calling it now: Zay Jones will not be on the week 1 roster.

[Jay_Fixit]

4 hours ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

Can’t believe people are agreeing with this silly take lol

It’s ridiculous the amount of “hate” Zay Jones gets.

[dave mcbride]

Ever since I began watching him play, Jones has reminded me of another second rounder who put up massive college numbers: Alex Van *****. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Van_Dyke. Van ***** produced like crazy in college, but had the same questions about size/speed/get-off-the-jam ability surrounding him that Jones has. 

 

PS - I see that the last part of AVD's last name has been censored! Wow. I feel bad for the Dick Van ***** fans on this board ...

Edited February 28, 2019 by dave mcbride

[T master]

I was not a huge fan of Jones after his bone head offseason thing he did last year & his smooth talking demeanor in interviews but i think seeing as he was a McD guy that they took in the draft he will be a part of the team this year .

 

He made a jump this past year & seemed as the year went on to develop a bit of chemistry with Josh, if nothing going forward i think he can be at best the #2 WR but more of a #3 guy unless he takes another jump this year then he could definitely be the #2 WR on the team .

 

Last season he had 56 rec. for 652 yds. 7 Td's. for a 11.6 npc avg that's not terrible given the fact that there was a rookie QB that he had little to no chemistry with & they were both learning a new scheme of offense . This year it will also be his second yr in the scheme so he should feel more comfortable & take that next step so i have to say i disagree with the OP .

 

Looking forward i think he will be on the team because he is still on his rookie deal & if nothing else he can be a good depth player if they do get some others weather in FA or in the draft .

[YoloinOhio]

17 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Actually.....a very good point brought here

 

Does Zay play ST's?

 

Because that could end up being a factor

I don’t think it will be 

[BillsBlue]

18 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I could be wrong, but this is just what I believe based on the additions I expect Beane to make in the WR room.  I have no issues if others don't agree, just my opinion on the matter, nothing more.  

 

I have consistently said this all off season, and McDermott just said something again that enforces that belief.  I think they see how the Rams cleared out their WR room and so did the Bears and in both cases their young QB's took big strides as passers.  Eagles did the same for Wentz too.  

 

"We're looking for guys that can get open and catch the ball."  Yes, that is an obvious trait for any WR, but also its telling that he and Beane keep making these comments given the struggles all year, including Zay, to do these very basic things.  

 

I think the WR room will be crowded once free agency and the draft is over (likely 2 to 3 additions) and Zay is going to be someone who has to really impress in camp to make this roster.   Right now, there is not one part of being a wide receiver that Zay does particularly well outside of his reported good work ethic.  

 

1. Hands:  Struggles catching the ball.  Makes easy catches look hard and drops too many passes.
2. Separation:  Has struggled to get separation, especially playing on the outside.  
3. Route Running:  Part of his issue with getting separation is his inconsistent route running.
4. Speed:  He has average speed.  He is fast enough to play in the league, but to be consistent with his speed he needs to be a good route runner.  
5. Physicality:  He is easily man handled by physical corners.  Games like the Lions and Pats this year he was dominated physically for example.  
6. Contested Catches:  One of the weakest part of his game.
7. Catch Radius:  Very limited mostly due to his inconsistent hands and lack of physicality.  

 

Foster:  Penciled in as a projected #2 WR.  However, if we bring in a potential starter in FA and also draft one early, then Foster is no lock for #2 and could be used more out of the slot or as a deep threat.  Additionally, if we draft say Metcalf or make a splashy trade for someone like Brown (less likely), then Duke could make a real challenge for #2 as a big catch radius compliment to a #1 who poses a real deep threat opposite him. 

 

Duke:  He has to prove himself in the NFL, I get that.  But if we take an honest assessment of him, his issues were never talent related.  He isn't a speed burner, but he has a big catch radius, runs good routes, and has great hands.  He could legit compete for the #2 opposite a big play #1.  Even if not a #2, its more than reasonable he has a legit shot to make this team and compete for minutes.  

 

Zay:  Best suited for the slot, however his lack of consistent hands and his issues with separation make his spot there vulnerable.  If our top 2 WR's this next season dont include Foster, then I can easily see Foster challenging to play in the slot, and he already has surpassed Zay.  

 

We are adding at least 2 additonal WR's (and maybe 3) this offseason expected to start or compete to start to go along with the 3 guys already here.  With McD and Beanes consistent comments about getting open and catching the ball, I think Zay is in trouble and will be a training camp or preseason trade for a 4th round or conditional 5th round pick.  

I completely disagree for many reasons

First he and josh allen have serious chemistry and that doesn't happen overnight....zay was our most complete best receiver on the roster last season and has a perfect number 2....also he had 2 multi td games as well...i think he'll become even better coming into year 3 and id expect a 7 to 9 td season coming up this year.......

Edited February 28, 2019 by BillsBlue

[blacklabel]

There's a misconception that Zay's best spot is in the slot just because he caught so many short throws from that position during his college career. I've seen quite a few film analysts say his best position is as an outside receiver. And when they lined him up there last year, that's where he started to show what he can be if he can reach his potential. He's firmly in this teams plans for 2019.

[BillsfanAZ]

I dont see Jones being cut. Even if the Bills pick a WR in round 1. He showed some production last season and hopefully more this coming season.

[YoloinOhio]

51 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

There's a misconception that Zay's best spot is in the slot just because he caught so many short throws from that position during his college career. I've seen quite a few film analysts say his best position is as an outside receiver. And when they lined him up there last year, that's where he started to show what he can be if he can reach his potential. He's firmly in this teams plans for 2019.

I completely agree with that - I do not want him in the slot 

[Kelly the Dog]

For a guy who doesn't run crisp routes, doesn't get off the line well, doesn't usually know where the first down marker is or adjust his route on third down, doesn't break tackles, doesn't get much YAC, doesn't have the best feet on the sidelines, doesn't often make clutch catches, doesn't fight and win 50-50 battles, doesn't track the ball well at all, doesn't go deep and often drops the ball, he sure gets a lot of love around here.

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

For a guy who doesn't run crisp routes, doesn't get off the line well, doesn't usually know where the first down marker is or adjust his route on third down, doesn't break tackles, doesn't get much YAC, doesn't have the best feet on the sidelines, doesn't often make clutch catches, doesn't fight and win 50-50 battles, doesn't track the ball well at all, doesn't go deep and often drops the ball, he sure gets a lot of love around here.

 

Not to mention he's a guy who in 30 career games had less than 40 yards receiving in 22 of them.  And that includes being a 16 game starter in 2018 where in 10 games he failed to reach 40 yards.  

 

For comparison, Robert Foster, an UDFA rookie who was cut came back for 7 game:

 

Zay Jones:  30 Career Games, over almost all of which he was a starter

Rober Foster:  7 games after being brought back of which he started or played big minutes

 

100 yard games:

Zay = Zero out of 30 (literally 0% rate)

Foster = 3 out of 7 (43% of his games)

 

Under 40 yard games:

Zay = 22 out 30 (73% of his games)

Foster = 2 out of 7 (29% of his games)

 

Touchdowns per game:

Zay = 9 total, 0.3 per game (keep in mind almost half of his career TD's came playing woeful Miami twice this year)

Foster = 3 total, 0.43 per game

 

For a high 2nd round pick, he was quickly surpassed by a guy who was cut after being a UDFA rookie that had below average college production.  So whats going to happen if we draft a couple high quality rookie prospects this year or draft one and sign/trade for an established vet?  Lets not forget Duke being a real threat either.  Dismissing Duke because he played in the CFL is foolish as he isnt the typical CFL story.  

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 hours ago, DCOrange said:

Garcon, yes. Crabtree, not really. If you look at their pages on PlayerProfiler.com, they weed out uncatchable targets and then look at the catch rate after the fact. Zay improved from 57.4% (which was basically the worst in the NFL) to 71.8%. Crabtree was at 75% this year (up from just under 70% the year before).

 

As for the OP, I personally think he SHOULD be on the roster bubble this year; we'll see how the offseason goes though. I'd like to see them add 3 legitimate WRs to the roster (along with a bunch of likely training camp fodder types) and make Zay earn his spot, but I'm not entirely sure we'll do that.

- uncatchable balls is where most arguments go sideways.  The Zay haters won't accept that stat.   I do take that into consideration.  

 

Zay had a very bad rookie season ....  now as I type ....  I'd like to know his uncatchable targets #'s for the 2017 season.

 

Depending on how you read the tea leaves ...  80% of the players (on all teams) should be on the bubble. 

[eball]

30 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

For a guy who doesn't run crisp routes, doesn't get off the line well, doesn't usually know where the first down marker is or adjust his route on third down, doesn't break tackles, doesn't get much YAC, doesn't have the best feet on the sidelines, doesn't often make clutch catches, doesn't fight and win 50-50 battles, doesn't track the ball well at all, doesn't go deep and often drops the ball, he sure gets a lot of love around here.

 

While part of me is laughing my ass off, the other part does think you’re being a bit harsh. I don’t have anything tangible upon which to base this statement, but perhaps Zay is one of those guys who just needs a couple of years in the league before he “gets it.” He certainly caught everything thrown at him in college so I don’t think it’s a lack of skill. 

[Kelly the Dog]

3 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

- uncatchable balls is where most arguments go sideways.  The Zay haters won't accept that stat.   I do take that into consideration.  

 

Zay had a very bad rookie season ....  now as I type ....  I'd like to know his uncatchable targets #'s for the 2017 season.

 

Depending on how you read the tea leaves ...  80% of the players (on all teams) should be on the bubble. 

I like those analytics sites and stats because they provide a different angle to look at the game with, like an extra camera for a TV broadcast. But certain stats, like drops and catchable balls, are very, very suspect to me because they are so very subjective. What one person sees as a bad pass by a QB is a drop by a WR way too many times. You see it in there threads here and elsewhere all the time. I don't put much stock, personally, is drops and uncatchable target stats. A lot of those throws are throwaways, too.   

2 minutes ago, eball said:

 

While part of me is laughing my ass off, the other part does think you’re being a bit harsh. I don’t have anything tangible upon which to base this statement, but perhaps Zay is one of those guys who just needs a couple of years in the league before he “gets it.” He certainly caught everything thrown at him in college so I don’t think it’s a lack of skill. 

I think the drops are a mental and concentration thing, and with experience he will get better at that. Some of the other stuff are also things that "can" be improved upon. Some, however, are very tough to learn how to do. He does a LOT of stuff very poorly.

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Its the offseason. 

 

I guess the other 2, 4, or 5 Zay is a bust threads didn't discuss this enough.  

 

Was Zay EVER supposed to be the # 1 or just a cog int he wheel. 

 

This is year 3. (the average life span of a NFL player) I'll pass judgement after the season. 

Yes He's drop passes.   

 

Believe it or not no WR is 100% on catching balls. 

 

Zay "may suck", but as it was discussed in last seasons Zay sucks threads he was still the leading WR on the team with catches and yards.  

 

 

Name one thing (honestly) that Zay excels at.  Just one.  HINT:  You can't.  He doesnt run crisp routes, doesnt get separation consistently, doesnt catch the ball clean or consistently, doesnt make contested catches, doesnt have elite speed.  

 

4 hours ago, WideRightRevenge said:

I agree year 1 was a disaster .. I also agree year 2 that a lot of stats were in garbage time .. but the kid had 399 catches at ECU ... not sure how that occurs if one struggles catching the ball ... I think he is overthinking things when his number is called and needs to breathe through his eyelids and let his natural talent take over.  I look forward to his Year 3 (and year 2 with Josh).

 

 

Preach Flip

 

Yeah, I get that, and why I had high hopes for Zay.  Hoped he could be that reliable #2 type receiver with great hands.  But plenty of people did things in college they couldn't replicate in the NFL against stronger competition.  Zay REALLY struggles getting off the line clean and hitting his route crisp, and I think thats a big part of the problem with his drops.

 

4 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

For those who called out for a look at 

 

Michael Crabtree or Pierre Garcon

 

their catch rate is worse that Zay's 

 

 

Um who did that?  Far as I can see almost the entire board was against both guys.  

 

3 hours ago, dneveu said:

Has experience inside and outside - Was our leading WR last year, had 7 TDs.  He seemed to get a lot better with Allen by the end of the year.  Had 5 TDs in the last 5 weeks, and had a really nice game with Barkley.  The only Goose egg was against Jax - and we didn't really pass much in that one.

 

Lets not over exaggerate the 5 TD's.  4 of them came against the lowly Dolphins.  I mean thats literally 45% of his career TD production in 30 games.

 

2 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

It’s ridiculous the amount of “hate” Zay Jones gets.

 

Why do people, and I do see you do it a lot, label someone getting "hate" if their play is fairly criticized?   His stats are below pedestrian, he has tons of drops, we have lost multiple games because of his drops, he's never had a 100 yard game in 30 games despite being a starter most the time, he's had 22 games out of 30 possible with less than 40 yards.

 

Sorry, its MORE than fair to question his role here based on what he has put on tape and his off season issue.

 

1 hour ago, BillsBlue said:

I completely disagree for many reasons

First he and josh allen have serious chemistry and that doesn't happen overnight....zay was our most complete best receiver on the roster last season and has a perfect number 2....also he had 2 multi td games as well...i think he'll become even better coming into year 3 and id expect a 7 to 9 td season coming up this year.......

 

Serious chemistry?  I think Foster has a bigger claim to that than Zay.  Zay has zero career 100 yard games, Foster had 3 of them over the second half the season.  

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

For you guys who like Zay, what is the ceiling? Is there a player comparison who represents what he might become? 'Cause I see a dude who even if he did start catching the ball more consistently still has a really low ceiling. Can't beat you deep, can't beat you after the catch, is not a jump ball guy. So what are we even hoping for?

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Name one thing (honestly) that Zay excels at.  Just one.  HINT:  You can't.  He doesnt run crisp routes, doesnt get separation consistently, doesnt catch the ball clean or consistently, doesnt make contested catches, doesnt have elite speed.  

 

 

Yeah, I get that, and why I had high hopes for Zay.  Hoped he could be that reliable #2 type receiver with great hands.  But plenty of people did things in college they couldn't replicate in the NFL against stronger competition.  Zay REALLY struggles getting off the line clean and hitting his route crisp, and I think thats a big part of the problem with his drops.

 

 

Um who did that?  Far as I can see almost the entire board was against both guys.  

 

 

Lets not over exaggerate the 5 TD's.  4 of them came against the lowly Dolphins.  I mean thats literally 45% of his career TD production in 30 games.

 

 

Why do people, and I do see you do it a lot, label someone getting "hate" if their play is fairly criticized?   His stats are below pedestrian, he has tons of drops, we have lost multiple games because of his drops, he's never had a 100 yard game in 30 games despite being a starter most the time, he's had 22 games out of 30 possible with less than 40 yards.

 

Sorry, its MORE than fair to question his role here based on what he has put on tape and his off season issue.

 

 

Serious chemistry?  I think Foster has a bigger claim to that than Zay.  Zay has zero career 100 yard games, Foster had 3 of them over the second half the season.  

The Dark Side is strong with this one.

 

I've said enough in the other 3 to 5 threads.  If you are interested, you can search for them.  

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

The Dark Side is strong with this one.

 

I've said enough in the other 3 to 5 threads.  If you are interested, you can search for them.  

 

Oh yeah, forgot about your thread police obsession.  I started my own thread about a prediction, if you want to participate here, then participate.  Coming in to tell people to go search your other posts is pretty ridiculous after you entered into the discussion here.  And no offense, you do this A LOT to a lot of people in a lot of threads.  

 

If you had your way, there would literally be a grand total of 10 threads on the whole board and they would all be over 1000 pages each and impossible to read.  

 

One on Allen.

One on the draft.

One on McD.

One on Beane.

One on the OL.

One on the WRs.

One on trades.

One on the Pats.

One on cuts.

One on everything that doesnt fit perfectly into one of those 9.  

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

23 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I like those analytics sites and stats because they provide a different angle to look at the game with, like an extra camera for a TV broadcast. But certain stats, like drops and catchable balls, are very, very suspect to me because they are so very subjective. What one person sees as a bad pass by a QB is a drop by a WR way too many times. You see it in there threads here and elsewhere all the time. I don't put much stock, personally, is drops and uncatchable target stats. A lot of those throws are throwaways, too.   

 

 

I think the drops are a mental and concentration thing, and with experience he will get better at that. Some of the other stuff are also things that "can" be improved upon. Some, however, are very tough to learn how to do. He does a LOT of stuff very poorly.

It comes down to the criteria set forth

 

Is every pass thrown within 5 yards counted as a "non catch" even if it is a throw away?    

Is any ball thrown 2 yards out (1 yard in within arms reach) uncatchable?

Is any ball thrown thrown at their feet uncatchable?

 

[DCOrange]

37 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

- uncatchable balls is where most arguments go sideways.  The Zay haters won't accept that stat.   I do take that into consideration.  

 

Zay had a very bad rookie season ....  now as I type ....  I'd like to know his uncatchable targets #'s for the 2017 season.

 

Depending on how you read the tea leaves ...  80% of the players (on all teams) should be on the bubble. 

 

Oh, the uncatchable was brutal in 2017 lol. So in 2018, 76.5% of Zay's targets were catchable. In 2017, it was 63.5%. But that doesn't change the fact that Zay was pathetic on the catchable ones.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Oh yeah, forgot about your thread police obsession.  I started my own thread about a prediction, if you want to participate here, then participate.  Coming in to tell people to go search your other posts is pretty ridiculous after you entered into the discussion here.  And no offense, you do this A LOT to a lot of people in a lot of threads.  

there you go getting all Alpha again.

 

Didn't I see you asking why a new Bob Kraft thread was created?   

 

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

It comes down to the criteria set forth

 

Is every pass thrown within 5 yards counted as a "non catch" even if it is a throw away?    

Is any ball thrown 2 yards out (1 yard in within arms reach) uncatchable?

Is any ball thrown thrown at their feet uncatchable?

 

That's my point. If they do it like that it's stupid, and if they don't do it like that, it's, well, stupid.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Just now, DCOrange said:

 

Oh, the uncatchable was brutal in 2017 lol. So in 2018, 76.5% of Zay's targets were catchable. In 2017, it was 63.5%. But that doesn't change the fact that Zay was pathetic on the catchable ones.

 

That's what I suspected.   Tyrod Taylor had some part of it.  

1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said:

That's my point. If they do it like that it's stupid, and if they don't do it like that, it's, well, stupid.

it comes down to the Eye Test   

[DCOrange]

Just now, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

That's what I suspected.   Tyrod Taylor had some part of it.  

 

That has nothing to do with the the true catch rate though. The true catch rate is only considering the percentage of those 76.5% and the percentage of those 63.5% of passes that he caught. So for example, he had 74 targets in 2017. 27 were deemed uncatchable, leaving 47 that were catchable. He caught 27 of those 47, for a pathetic percentage of 57.4%. That improved to 71.8% this year (which is still bad, but at least not ungodly terrible).

[Alphadawg7]

46 minutes ago, eball said:

 

While part of me is laughing my ass off, the other part does think you’re being a bit harsh. I don’t have anything tangible upon which to base this statement, but perhaps Zay is one of those guys who just needs a couple of years in the league before he “gets it.” He certainly caught everything thrown at him in college so I don’t think it’s a lack of skill. 

 

As far as college goes, its a lot easier to get open cleanly in college which makes it a lot easier to catch passes.

 

Also, some guys just don't step up to the pressures or cant shake off mistakes well.  So if their confidence gets a little rattled its hard to come back from and really affects them on the field.  

 

I have said in other threads before that I think the biggest factor in Zays struggles might be his week 2 game as a rookie against the Panthers where we lost because of the game ending dropped pass.  The biggest failure on the play was his route, not the drop.  He ran a sloppy route where he stumbled without interference and was then in bad position to make the game ending catch.  He would get his hands on it still but still didnt come down with the ball.  

 

I think that got to him and he clearly struggled heavy with drops from that point on despite looking impressive in the preseason with less pressure.  Then add in the off field stuff after that bad rookie year, and I think he is just a guy who struggles with mistakes and getting his mind fully past them.  

 

Thats not a good trait, because no WR catches 100% of the passes.  If he can shake off a drop, he will have a career long issue with confidence and never take that step forward.  

 

9 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

there you go getting all Alpha again.

 

Didn't I see you asking why a new Bob Kraft thread was created?   

 

 

Nope.  I said I was surprised a rub and tug incident reached 50 pages.  I asked what could possibly still be getting discussed 50 pages in about a guy getting a handy.  

 

All I did was call you out for jumping into THIS thread then when engaging with you was told to go SEARCH for your comments in other parts of the board.  Thats a pretty silly thing to do, and was just being honest, I see you say that a lot to a lot of people.  Dont really know why you would participate here then object to participating here if someone engages in discussion with you.  

Edited February 28, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[BuffaloHokie13]

58 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I like those analytics sites and stats because they provide a different angle to look at the game with, like an extra camera for a TV broadcast. But certain stats, like drops and catchable balls, are very, very suspect to me because they are so very subjective. What one person sees as a bad pass by a QB is a drop by a WR way too many times. You see it in there threads here and elsewhere all the time. I don't put much stock, personally, is drops and uncatchable target stats. A lot of those throws are throwaways, too.   

Zay's rookie year was plagued with bad/incorrect routes, which are being factored into uncatchable targets. But that's not something many around here want to acknowledge.

Edited February 28, 2019 by BuffaloHokie13

[CLTbills]

Unless we sign 2-3 better WR's this offseason, why would he go anywhere? If we had a bunch of talent there I'd be with you, but we very clearly don't

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Zay's rookie year was plagued with bad/incorrect routes. But that's not something many around here want to acknowledge.

 

And his 2nd year was an improvement, but it was still an issue.    

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

For a guy who doesn't run crisp routes, doesn't get off the line well, doesn't usually know where the first down marker is or adjust his route on third down, doesn't break tackles, doesn't get much YAC, doesn't have the best feet on the sidelines, doesn't often make clutch catches, doesn't fight and win 50-50 battles, doesn't track the ball well at all, doesn't go deep and often drops the ball, he sure gets a lot of love around here.

 

But he knew where to tell KB To line up, so there was some value.....

[BuffaloHokie13]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

And his 2nd year was an improvement, but it was still an issue.    

Absolutely. Routes and contested catches are my biggest gripes.

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

But he knew where to tell KB To line up, so there was some value.....

That's true. He did know all the plays, he just couldn't run any of them.

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, CLTbills said:

Unless we sign 2-3 better WR's this offseason, why would he go anywhere? If we had a bunch of talent there I'd be with you, but we very clearly don't

 

Thats just it, I said I think he will be traded at some point because I do think we will bring in at least 2, and possibly 3 new WRs between FA, draft, and maybe trades (like maybe Ross, not expecting a big trade for Brown or anyone).  

 

If we ONLY bring in ONE more WR the rest the offseason (and I mean a relevant WR, not depth guys) then I absolutely think Zay will be on this team week 1.  

But I think its more plausible we add 2 more at least.  Plus, we did add one earlier in Duke who should not be over looked either.  There are only so many WR spots open, and then there is a pecking order.  Foster passed Zay, Duke will at the very least compete.  Now we add a quality FA WR and then draft one in first 2 rounds...all of a sudden, there are 3 guys (FA, Rookie, and Foster) already challenging to be top 3 on the depth chart along with Duke who I expect to challenge too.  Wont be hard for Zay to fall to 4th or 5th if he cant do something better than the other guys.  And thats not factoring in if we add 3 more guys which is not out of the question.  

Edited February 28, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[MrEpsYtown]

Whether you hate or love Zay, he has been a massive disappointment. I think there is a chance he could get moved, and I think there is a chance that he could break out. But no one can really deny how terrible he's been. Sure we saw flashes here or there. For a high second round pick, it's simply not good enough. I hope he is better, or moved for an offensive lineman. 

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Absolutely. Routes and contested catches are my biggest gripes.

 

Ditto.  Zay got a lot of production on the broken plays where Allen had to use his legs to escape or buy time.  If our WR's were winning their routes, our QB would have a place to go with the ball quicker and wont have to run around so much.  Once a QB takes off out of the pocket, its hard for DB's to keep holding coverage when WR's start improvising to the scrambling QB.  So Zay getting free then is not a big deal to me, I want to see him beat his guy off the line and run a clean route where Allen can hit him.  

 

He has not done that well yet.  First season was atrocious.  Second season was better but still below average.  Worse yet, he is awful at beating press coverage.  

1 minute ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Whether you hate or love Zay, he has been a massive disappointment. I think there is a chance he could get moved, and I think there is a chance that he could break out. But no one can really deny how terrible he's been. Sure we saw flashes here or there. For a high second round pick, it's simply not good enough. I hope he is better, or moved for an offensive lineman. 

 

Agree, and this is why while I have my gut feeling I also do not take any offense with people who disagree.  I have quite enjoyed the dialogue here, lots of great discussion on both sides.  

 

I think we can all agree that all of us would want nothing more than Zay to prove to be a very good WR.  

[NewEraBills]

I think the other issue you have to consider here as well is that both Jones and Foster know the offense.  We don't know if Duke is picking it up quickly or not.  In addition, rookies (if we go that route) might need someone to help them pick up the offense.  So I don't see Jones as an automatic get the boot guy.  Knowing the offense is important.  Both Jones and Foster can help guys that are unfamiliar.

20 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Whether you hate or love Zay, he has been a massive disappointment. I think there is a chance he could get moved, and I think there is a chance that he could break out. But no one can really deny how terrible he's been. Sure we saw flashes here or there. For a high second round pick, it's simply not good enough. I hope he is better, or moved for an offensive lineman. 

 

Everyone on offense has.  So do we say the OL and the QB and a lack of running game held the WR's back or did the WR's hold the other parts back?  In any case, we do know the line needs serious upgrades.  We do need at least one other player at WR.  More importantly, we need bodies at TE.

Edited February 28, 2019 by NewEraBills

[MrEpsYtown]

8 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

 

Everyone on offense has.  So do we say the OL and the QB and a lack of running game held the WR's back or did the WR's hold the other parts back?  In any case, we do know the line needs serious upgrades.  We do need at least one other player at WR.  More importantly, we need bodies at TE.

 

Zay blew a lot of opportunities. He should have had more, and that is on the rest of the offense. But he blew a lot of the ones he had, and that's why he is so disappointing in my eye. You can't be a playmaker if you can't make plays. A receiver who can't catch is worthless. If he is on the team this year, I hope he breaks out. 

[Alphadawg7]

10 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

I think the other issue you have to consider here as well is that both Jones and Foster know the offense.  We don't know if Duke is picking it up quickly or not.  In addition, rookies (if we go that route) might need someone to help them pick up the offense.  So I don't see Jones as an automatic get the boot guy.  Knowing the offense is important.  Both Jones and Foster can help guys that are unfamiliar.

 

Thats a fair point, and we wont know that until later in the year.  Couple of things people keep missing from what I said (not saying you did, just in general in this thread).  

• I never said he would be cut, in my OP I said traded.  I said I think he will be traded, as he will have value.
• I said I thought the trade would happen during the preseaosn, perhaps just before final roster cuts.  
• I based this gut feeling on the notion we will add at least 2 more WR's in FA/Draft/Trades that would be relevant players (not depth WR's).  And could add 3, but I expect 2 more since we already added Duke too.  And I expect those guys to do some things better than Zay like catching and running routes.

The last one being the one that most applies to your comment.  My feeling is that we will add 2 guys expected to either start or compete to start.  I also believe Duke will be in the mix as well, another gut feeling. 

 

So with 3 guys vying to start (Foster and 2 new ones) plus Duke being a wildcard who could push to start, where does Zay come and do something better than the other 3 to 4 relevant guys?  So, you bring up a good point, it very well could be understanding the offense where Zay is ahead of some of them and that helps him stay higher on the depth chart, at least early in the season.  Thats actually the best point I have read in response to my thread so far.  

[NewEraBills]

4 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Zay blew a lot of opportunities. He should have had more, and that is on the rest of the offense. But he blew a lot of the ones he had, and that's why he is so disappointing in my eye. You can't be a playmaker if you can't make plays. A receiver who can't catch is worthless. If he is on the team this year, I hope he breaks out. 

 

No argument there.  But let's not forget, a great deal of our WR's and TE's blew a lot of opportunities even Foster, who I always thought would make the roster, but early on he blew a lot of catches he should have made.  So I'm not disagreeing.  Just looking at the entire picture, Jones was no worse than anyone else we had last year and he was more consistent than his first season.  Last year, Allen was just getting into things and the OL was one of the worst in the league.  I think you have to let the process work itself out and see how things look with Allen with a year under his belt and a better OL; and Zay Jones where he needs to be, namely in the slot.

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Zay blew a lot of opportunities. He should have had more, and that is on the rest of the offense. But he blew a lot of the ones he had, and that's why he is so disappointing in my eye. You can't be a playmaker if you can't make plays. A receiver who can't catch is worthless. If he is on the team this year, I hope he breaks out. 

 

This is my whole thing with him...the tape doesn't lie, stats lie in the NFL, but the tape doesn't.  He left a LOT of plays on the field, way more than you want to see from a starting WR.   

[John from Riverside]

14 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This is my whole thing with him...the tape doesn't lie, stats lie in the NFL, but the tape doesn't.  He left a LOT of plays on the field, way more than you want to see from a starting WR.   

My problem with Zay is he doesnt seem to make his stat plays when the GAME IS ON THE LINE

 

When the moment is big......I just dont hear his name a lot....this is strictly my opinion.

 

And he still drops balls he should catch which is maddening......he did not look like bust material last year though......that is how I expected him to look in his first year.

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

My problem with Zay is he doesnt seem to make his stat plays when the GAME IS ON THE LINE

 

When the moment is big......I just dont hear his name a lot....this is strictly my opinion.

 

And he still drops balls he should catch which is maddening......he did not look like bust material last year though......that is how I expected him to look in his first year.

 

I think there is more fact than opinion in what you just said given he's come up short a lot in key moments or just been utterly invisible too often.  

 

And this thread is not about declaring him a bust, its always been about the belief I have they will find a better WR.  Doesnt mean Zay cant be a contributor or doesnt deserve to be on a roster.  I don't even think he's a bust.  I just think he could be an odd man out on this roster if we add the expected talent to the WR this offseason that I believe we will.  And not through a cut, but by trading him to get value while he has it.  If he is on the bench a lot in 2019, he will have much less trade value later.  So I think Beane would move him while he can get the most for him if 3 other WR's end up higher than him on the depth chart. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Alphadawg7