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Alphadawg7

Calling it now: Zay Jones will not be on the week 1 roster.

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13 minutes ago, ChicagoRic said:

 

Sitting behind 1 HOFer.  96 and 97 was Andre Reed at the tail end of his career getting the ball from a past-his prime Jim Kelly and then Todd Collins.....

 

Quinn Early, Steve Tasker (as a WR) Russell Copeland and Chris Brantley are not HOF material. 

Tasker was getting a lot of run in that time frame as well.

 

I think the league has evolved quite a bit in that receivers are much more pro ready than they were in 1996.

 

I EXPECT Zay to be on the roster, but I wouldn't be shocked if they moved on.

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32 minutes ago, ChicagoRic said:

Eric Moulds, Year 1 and 2

Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G Ctch% Rush Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G Touch Y/Tch YScm RRTD Fmb AV
1996 23 BUF KR/wr 80 16 5 37 20 279 14.0 2 47 1.3 17.4 54.1% 12 44 0 11 3.7 2.8 0.8 32 10.1 323 2 1 3
1997 24 BUF KR/WR 80 16 8 52 29 294 10.1 0 32 1.8 18.4 55.8%

 

Zay Jones, Year 1 and 2

  Games Receiving Rushing Total Yds      
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G Ctch% Rush Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G Touch Y/Tch YScm RRTD Fmb AV
2017 22 BUF WR 11 15 10 74 27 316 11.7 2 33 1.8 21.1 36.5%               27 11.7 316 2 0 3
2018 23 BUF WR 11 16 15 102 56 652 11.6 7 57 3.5 40.8

54.9%

 

 

Eric Moulds, Year 3.

1998* 25 BUF WR 80 16 15 116 67 1368 20.4 9 84 4.2 85.5 57

 

Yes, I know, 2 different players.  My point is that you don't cut a guy on year 2 of a rookie contract because there is a learning curve for WRs and year 3 is often when it "clicks" and you get to see the player's true potential.  

 

I'll give it one more year and hope for the best. 

 

 

I get your point and understand where you are coming from...BUT:  You don't keep a guy because of a stat sheet comparison or analysis either.  You keep a guy because he is better than the next guy on your roster.  

 

Is the third year pivotal historically for WR's...yes and no.  They have studied it and its a bit true and a bit over stated too.  However, what common factor though is that after 2 years, usually you can point at a WR and identify something he is actually good at while also identifying where he needs to improve to take the next step.  

 

Right now, there isnt any particular thing anyone can say that Zay is good at.  He needs to literally improve every aspect of his game, including Hands, Routes, Separation, etc.  Can he do it, we will see...but thats a tall ask when facing a produce now or else moment like he will be when they add even more new faces to the room to go along with the competition he will already face with Foster and Duke.  

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21 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I won’t cut him either.  But Moulds was sitting behind HOFers.  The last 2 years have been some of the worst group of receivers in team history.  

I agree about Moulds, Moulds was our KR/PR/WR and had to fight off  Reed, Early and that TE we had which I cannot remember. Also Allen is light years ahead of Todd Collins and Van Pelt. I'm still pissed that we missed out on Juju and my personalized Bad Juju jersey.

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10 minutes ago, elltrain22 said:

Zay Jones for John Ross. Straight up?

 

Honestly, I almost added that to my OP.  Its not crazy either, as Zay could be a better fit for the slot role there with Daltons more average arm and Ross could be of more interest to the Bills for Allens deep ball.  

 

I don't think its crazy to propose, however, I think the Bengals would be more interested in draft picks than another WR given they have 2 other very good WR's already.  

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20 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I agree about Moulds, Moulds was our KR/PR/WR and had to fight off  Reed, Early and that TE we had which I cannot remember. Also Allen is light years ahead of Todd Collins and Van Pelt. I'm still pissed that we missed out on Juju and my personalized Bad Juju jersey.

I was pretty young for those years so I looked them up and a couple interesting things

 

1) Jerry Reese, the former Giants GM, was a receiver for us.

 

2) Collins first year as a true starter was also exactly like Allen’s passing wise. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CollTo00.htm

 

3) was Moulds’ 1995 season the most dominant receiving season in Bills’ history?

 

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4 hours ago, Pete said:

I have a hunch that Duke might be very good playing slot.  If he outplays Zay in camp, Zay might be in trouble.  

 

Duke is a possession guy and not elusive enough to play from the slot. 

 

4 hours ago, WMDman said:

I really don’t get the hate for Zay 

 

No one hates him. It's a matter that as a 2nd round pick he's not exactly performing in a pass-heavy league the way many fans expected.  Especially when compared to other recent 2nd round picks. 

 

3 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I argue for patience with Zay and any young WR.  

 

Here are the first two year stats for one of the very best receivers in Bills’ history:

49 catches, 575 yards, 11.7 ypc, 2 TDS

 

That great player was Eric Moulds.

 

To point to a more current example at a different position, Jerry Hughes was traded to the Bills because the Colts gave up on him early.

 

Eric Moulds' best days were 15-20 years ago and the league's dramatically changed since then. The PI and RTP calls, among other things, make this even more a passing league than it was in the late 90s/early 00s.  These comparisons are moot and not representative of the opportunity that WR's have presented now to succeed at the start of their career.

 

And, one player's career has absolutely nothing to do with another's.  Besides, Moulds and Jones are completely different players.  Before he got older, Moulds could run by people but Jones is not a burner (cue the person citing his 40 time).  

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11 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Duke is a possession guy and not elusive enough to play from the slot. 

 

 

No one hates him. It's a matter that as a 2nd round pick he's not exactly performing in a pass-heavy league the way many fans expected.  Especially when compared to other recent 2nd round picks. 

 

 

Eric Moulds' best days were 15-20 years ago and the league's dramatically changed since then. The PI and RTP calls, among other things, make this even more a passing league than it was in the late 90s/early 00s.  These comparisons are moot and not representative of the opportunity that WR's have presented now to succeed at the start of their career.

 

And, one player's career has absolutely nothing to do with another's.  Besides, Moulds and Jones are completely different players.  Before he got older, Moulds could run by people but Jones is not a burner (cue the person citing his 40 time).  

I'm not disputing your entire premise, but I distinctly remember Moulds getting caught from behind in the Dolphins playoff game and fumbling. Such a deflating play. Maybe it was T Buck who caught him. Not quite sure. I love Moulds, but he was no burner.

Edited by BillsSB2020

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Unless they were to swing some huge kind of trade plus sign a few free agents I would think Zay is safe. 

Cheap contract, still room to improve.. Doesn’t make sense to let him go for nothing 

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I thought he came on pretty well at the end of the year and started to establish a rapport with JA.

 

56/ 650 and 7 TDs. Not bad for a guy playing with 4 QBs, a fat cow across from him and nothing from the RB position.

 

 

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More from McD:

 

“At the end of the day I’m looking for a guy that can affect a defense, from a matchup standpoint, and a guy that people have to be mindful of,” McDermott said. “Other than that I want them to get open, catch the ball and put the ball down - and then come back and do it again.”

 

Hmmmmm...how many of these traits are strengths of Zay that McD wants from his WR's?

  1. Affect a defense from a matchup standpoint:  Nope
  2. A guy that people have to be mindful of:  Nope
  3. Gets open:  Nope
  4. Catch the ball:  Nope
  5. Come back and do it again (consistency):  Nope

 

Prove me wrong Zay, but right now you don't come to mind when I hear our coaches and GM talk about what they want in a WR.

Edited by Alphadawg7

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1 hour ago, RocCityRoller said:

I thought he came on pretty well at the end of the year and started to establish a rapport with JA.

 

56/ 650 and 7 TDs. Not bad for a guy playing with 4 QBs, a fat cow across from him and nothing from the RB position.

 

Zay was phenomenal when games were out of reach.  His big day at NYJ with 8 catches for 93 yards and 2 TDs largely occurred when Buffalo was up 2 scores.  

 

When it matters, ZJ's targets aren't high. Blame it on the QB, OL, whatever...he's not a factor when it matters.  At least not yet. 

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I think Zay is our #3 in 2019 behind D.K. and Foster...

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9 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

I disagree mostly because he drafted him and those guys always get more timeI think he will get more chances for that reason. I also think that McD knows that the QB situation hasn’t been ideal for a developing WR. In addition, he’s shown the ability to make plays have big games, he hasn’t been a complete no show. I believe that he will get his full rookie contract to prove himself and the Bills will make a decision on him at that point. 

 

I agree -to disagree- with you that Zay will see his full rookie contract unless we draft the next Rice & Reed before then. I was ready to move on from him after his disastrous rookie season and naked suicide attempt (?), but he improved significantly this past season and built a rapport with a fellow McBeane draft pick at QB. 3rd year is typically when WRs really break out, too.

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4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Honestly, I almost added that to my OP.  Its not crazy either, as Zay could be a better fit for the slot role there with Daltons more average arm and Ross could be of more interest to the Bills for Allens deep ball.  

 

I don't think its crazy to propose, however, I think the Bengals would be more interested in draft picks than another WR given they have 2 other very good WR's already.  

Props to you Alphadawg7. You’ve shown our newbs how to create a thread with a possibly polarizing theme and oversee and interact with the thread. You win best poster for the rest of the month!👍😉

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38 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Props to you Alphadawg7. You’ve shown our newbs how to create a thread with a possibly polarizing theme and oversee and interact with the thread. You win best poster for the rest of the month!👍😉

 

Aw shucks *blushing* thanks 

 

You can send my prize money to my Venmo :nana:

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I see OPs point but no chance.  

 

1.  Cap hit of 1.8M is cheap.   Less than Andrew Holmes was to play special teams. 

2.  1.5 dead cap of cut. 

3.  You dont give up on a 23 year old that caught 56 passes and 7 TDs in his second year. 

4.   Wr is our weakest position.  Unless we sign 1 or 2 guys and draft someone high there is no way hes not in the top 5 or 6 wrs.

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42 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

I see OPs point but no chance.  

 

1.  Cap hit of 1.8M is cheap.   Less than Andrew Holmes was to play special teams. 

2.  1.5 dead cap of cut. 

3.  You dont give up on a 23 year old that caught 56 passes and 7 TDs in his second year. 

4.   Wr is our weakest position.  Unless we sign 1 or 2 guys and draft someone high there is no way hes not in the top 5 or 6 wrs.

 

Already had one "off-field" issue and was overtaken by Foster on the outside and McKenzie in the slot in the last 3rd of last season. I think he more than likely makes the roster but I don't think he is even close to a lock at this point and Alpha set the arguments for why out cogently.

 

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15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Already had one "off-field" issue and was overtaken by Foster on the outside and McKenzie in the slot in the last 3rd of last season. I think he more than likely makes the roster but I don't think he is even close to a lock at this point and Alpha set the arguments for why out cogently.

 

If Zay ends up being surpassed to the point of being the 4th or even 5th best option at WR, he's done. Most depth WR's play on teams and Zay has played 6 ST snaps over the last 2 seasons.

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2 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

If Zay ends up being surpassed to the point of being the 4th or even 5th best option at WR, he's done. Most depth WR's play on teams and Zay has played 6 ST snaps over the last 2 seasons.

 

Yep. Another very good point.

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13 hours ago, Augie said:

I think he stays. He’s cheap and his leap from year 1 to year 2 was impressive and makes me hope he keeps improving. I think there may have some some stuff messing up his head year 1. 

 

At times this season he reminded me of Jarvis Landry.

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13 hours ago, mannc said:

I thought that might be the case last year.  I think this year Zay’s safer, but not a lock to make the team.  Cutting him would mean Sean admitting to a bad mistake, which he won’t do unless there’s really no other choice.

 

McDermott did not scout, grade or draft Jones or anyone else that offseason. That's not his job, but sure, he's consulted. I'm amazed that some folks are so confused about this. Also, if your contention that McDermott won't release a player he ordered either Whaley or Beane to sign because he's too vain to admit that he made a mistake is true, then Kelvin Benjaman would still be on our roster. I apologize if that comes off as brash. I just disagree with the comment you made.

Edited by GreggTX
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