Bean at his Witchery, Again!

[RochesterRob]

18 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

From Beane and McDermotts perspective their choice to rebuild the roster and shed talent for "process" made a ton of sense.

 

It took pressure off them to win now and gave them time. Never liked how they went about it but they can right the ship this offseason with some strong moves. 

I'm sure there will be more spinning if the offseason doesn't go as planned. 

 

 

  As planned for the front office or the fans?  A lot of people here seem to think that getting Paradis is a slam dunk when in fact it is anything but.  I would be OK  with  setting a firm limit on an offer for Paradis.  I don't think that he is a generational talent worth paying 15M+ per year if that is where the bidding goes.  People here like talking in vague statements so they can not be held to anything if a plan does not work out.  So tell us what you think needs to be done complete with salary figures so we can talk again this time next year.  I'll put my cards on the table and say Paradis is not worth over 15M dollars per year unless the guaranteed money was less than 45M total.  I want to be protected 3 years down the road in case Paradis burns out.

[John from Riverside]

23 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  As planned for the front office or the fans?  A lot of people here seem to think that getting Paradis is a slam dunk when in fact it is anything but.  I would be OK  with  setting a firm limit on an offer for Paradis.  I don't think that he is a generational talent worth paying 15M+ per year if that is where the bidding goes.  People here like talking in vague statements so they can not be held to anything if a plan does not work out.  So tell us what you think needs to be done complete with salary figures so we can talk again this time next year.  I'll put my cards on the table and say Paradis is not worth over 15M dollars per year unless the guaranteed money was less than 45M total.  I want to be protected 3 years down the road in case Paradis burns out.

I think there are other guys as well....Morse for instance

[BillsSB2020]

5 hours ago, cage said:

I'm a bit confused,...I don't recall Beane getting a lot of heat / slack when that trade was announced.  I think most people thought he got a great return.

Yes. I recall the same. It was a terrific move and was universally lauded. I liked Tyrod the human being, but he clearly couldn't hack it as a starting quarterback. To get a third round pick was a major steal. I believe in the Bean man, but I don't remember anything but praise for the deal. Could be wrong.

[formerlyofCtown]

If he is a witch he needs to start performing ceremonies with Allen pregame and give him some drops.

8 minutes ago, BillsSB2020 said:

Yes. I recall the same. It was a terrific move and was universally lauded. I liked Tyrod the human being, but he clearly couldn't hack it as a starting quarterback. To get a third round pick was a major steal. I believe in the Bean man, but I don't remember anything but praise for the deal. Could be wrong.

A few Media tried to act like the Bills were racist and TT would be an All-Pro if Buffalo wasnt racist.

[DCbillsfan]

17 minutes ago, NJKBillsfan said:

Yeah but what did we even do with the pick that we got for Tyrod?

 

Didn't we just throw it away anyway? 

Traded that pick and #22 to Ravens to draft Edmunds at 16.  The Bills also got a pick back from Ravens.  I believe it was a 5th Rd pick Sian Neal

[machine gun kelly]

I don’t know why so many people want to pile on Beane when he may have advised the year before, but only really was in charge of one free agency and draft.  Some people want to point to every failure, but that counters with decent trade values, and picking up Foster and McKenzie late.

 

It’s a work in progress so in two years we can make a good assessment of both people.

[RochesterRob]

23 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

I don’t know why so many people want to pile on Beane when he may have advised the year before, but only really was in charge of one free agency and draft.  Some people want to point to every failure, but that counters with decent trade values, and picking up Foster and McKenzie late.

 

It’s a work in progress so in two years we can make a good assessment of both people.

  It's a way to make people feel better about their own miserable lives.

[John from Riverside]

5 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Two years? 

 

It doesn't take 5 or 4 or even 3 years to build a winning team.

It does when you are completely rebiulding it.

[machine gun kelly]

Scott, it does when you have only one year under you’re belt as taken after the draft, purged 54 mil in dead cap weight, and now are in a position to pick up agents and a solid draft.  Then next year we see what he does talent wise then and how well he retains good talent by using $ wisely.

 

Then we can make a solid determination on Beane.  A lot of people were raving about Whaley prematurely, and then everyone piled on him.  Working in Mgmt in a high end industry takes time sometimes to assess talent, work people out and in so you have a winning team.

 

Im not saying he’s made some mistakes, but so did Polian, Brandt, and Wolf.  This is by their own admission.  Polian who is often spoken fondly on this board said he was happy if he could hit on 60% of his drafts.  That’s on NFLR, if you don’t believe me, or ask him yourself next Tuesday night on late hits.

[JaCrispy]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

From Beane and McDermotts perspective their choice to rebuild the roster and shed talent for "process" made a ton of sense.

 

It took pressure off them to win now and gave them time. Never liked how they went about it but they can right the ship this offseason with some strong moves. 

I'm sure there will be more spinning if the offseason doesn't go as planned. 

 

 

I’m actually planning on it

[MJS]

Getting a 3rd for Tyrod was certainly a great, great move. Also getting a 5th for McCarron (who couldn't beat out Peterman) was great.

 

But part of the reason Flacco was only worth a 4th was his contract, I believe.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, MJS said:

Getting a 3rd for Tyrod was certainly a great, great move. Also getting a 5th for McCarron (who couldn't beat out Peterman) was great.

 

But part of the reason Flacco was only worth a 4th was his contract, I believe.

I agree.....the contract had to come into play

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

22 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Scott, it does when you have only one year under you’re belt as taken after the draft, purged 54 mil in dead cap weight, and now are in a position to pick up agents and a solid draft.  Then next year we see what he does talent wise then and how well he retains good talent by using $ wisely.

 

Then we can make a solid determination on Beane.  A lot of people were raving about Whaley prematurely, and then everyone piled on him.  Working in Mgmt in a high end industry takes time sometimes to assess talent, work people out and in so you have a winning team.

 

Im not saying he’s made some mistakes, but so did Polian, Brandt, and Wolf.  This is by their own admission.  Polian who is often spoken fondly on this board said he was happy if he could hit on 60% of his drafts.  That’s on NFLR, if you don’t believe me, or ask him yourself next Tuesday night on late hits.

 

   a spot on and damn good assessment bud......McBeane assembled his "Gang of 17+" staff made up of several former VP's of Player Personnel and Pro Player Personnel Directors.....probably a total payroll of $5+ mil all on Pegula.....they will have 18+ months together come draft & FA....with 10 picks and FA $$$$, 2019 is shaping up to be one of THE most pivotal years in the last decade+ or perhaps even back to the Polian era......sure it will take time to develop new personnel be it draft picks and/or FA's before a reasonable critical assessment can happen...BUT....6-10 at the end of 2019 will raise some genuine concerns IMO....stay tuned.............

[BillsSB2020]

1 hour ago, formerlyofCtown said:

If he is a witch he needs to start performing ceremonies with Allen pregame and give him some drops.

A few Media tried to act like the Bills were racist and TT would be an All-Pro if Buffalo wasnt racist.

Oh, I tend to tune out when I hear such nonsense. The Bills made a shrewd move and I thought by and large it was agreed that it was a wonderful move. Don't remember any of that personally, but I trust your account. I'm excited for the off season because I think the boys upstairs realize this is their time to shine.

[HOUSE]

Tyrod Taylor is the best dressed player in the NFL

[Beast]

7 hours ago, BillsVet said:

Except Beane's not graded on how well he does on individual trades, even though everyone wants to declare victory immediately on moves these days.

 

Beane is graded on building a roster, and through 2 off-seasons he and McCoach have a far from finished product ready to compete and win championships.

 

You can take your individual trade victories, but over the long haul it doesn't matter. 

 

 

Well, since this is only his second off-season, yeah, individual trades DO MATTER since you have to make it to the “long haul” somehow.

 

Through two off-seasons? No. He hasn’t been through two off-seasons.

 

You post is full of misinformation.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

I'm in agreement with the crowd that's still on the fence about Beane, and I don't think that's portraying him in a negative light. It's actually neither praising him or bashing him for the rebuild.

 

I don't think tearing it down is that tough a job, it's how you rebuild back up and we're going to see a very important part of that this offseason after we saw the biggest single part of it last year with Allen. Whether or not Allen becomes a real franchise QB and what pieces Beane puts around him will determine what kind of job he's done here. 

 

The one thing that drives me crazy is all the nonsense about "breaking the drought". It was a fun moment but to me that really didn't change anything. It was a mediocre team at best that made it at 9-7 and lost in the first round. From the perspective of evaluating a GM, to me that pretty much means nothing. If he fails at putting the right pieces around Allen, I don't see how a 9-7 one and done run to the playoffs 2 years prior changes any part of that. 

[formerlyofCtown]

17 minutes ago, BillsSB2020 said:

Oh, I tend to tune out when I hear such nonsense. The Bills made a shrewd move and I thought by and large it was agreed that it was a wonderful move. Don't remember any of that personally, but I trust your account. I'm excited for the off season because I think the boys upstairs realize this is their time to shine.

I truely believe next offseason they will be putting the finishing touches on a championship contender.  Our picks will start moving to the end of the round but I have faith that this team will do well picking later.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Come on John.

 

Theres examples of teams going from worse to first EVERY YEAR. 

 

The 2007 Miami Dolphins went 1-15. The next year they went 11-5. 

The examples are few and far between

And you know this

[BillsVet]

33 minutes ago, Binghamton Beast said:

Well, since this is only his second off-season, yeah, individual trades DO MATTER since you have to make it to the “long haul” somehow.

 

Through two off-seasons? No. He hasn’t been through two off-seasons.

 

You post is full of misinformation.

 

When were Darby and Watkins traded? Which off-season was that?  

 

But, for arguments' sake, let's look at where the Bills went from year 1 of Beane to year 2.  They deliberately took a step back to clean up their cap and went from 9 wins to 6.  

 

You realize that right now their offense is among the league's worst? Their top 2 RBs hit 31 in a few months. They have no more than 3 proven OL on the roster. Their TEs consist of a journeyman and former UDFA with 22 career catches.  The WRs? A UDFA with 6 good NFL games and a WR who struggles to separate and make catches.  

 

I'd "fact-check" your posts first. 

[Beast]

44 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

When were Darby and Watkins traded? Which off-season was that?  

 

But, for arguments' sake, let's look at where the Bills went from year 1 of Beane to year 2.  They deliberately took a step back to clean up their cap and went from 9 wins to 6.  

 

You realize that right now their offense is among the league's worst? Their top 2 RBs hit 31 in a few months. They have no more than 3 proven OL on the roster. Their TEs consist of a journeyman and former UDFA with 22 career catches.  The WRs? A UDFA with 6 good NFL games and a WR who struggles to separate and make catches.  

 

I'd "fact-check" your posts first. 

 

I don't need to fact check my posts because they are accurate.

 

Watkins and Darby were traded in the pre-season of 2017. That was in-season.

 

Brandon Beane was hired in May of 2017. That was after free agency and after the draft.

 

Brandon Beane has one draft and one free agency period under his belt. This will be his second for both.

 

 

 

 

[BillsSB2020]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

?

 

The Bears are the example this year. Worst to first in one year. 

You do understand that the Bills brass fully expected a down 2018 in preparation for this off season, correct? They have their QB and all the resources necessary to make this thing work. You may not like the approach, but how can you not be excited about the upcoming season when they've done such a solid job of setting this thing up. At least give em a shot.

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

9 hours ago, BillsFan1988 said:

Let's just wish and pray our front office can one day be compared to the Ravens. Eric Decosta will be a great GM.  I realize Newsome just left but Decosta was a big part of there success during these last two 15yrs . 

Beane has also been horrible in unrestricted free agency. 

So I guess you don't like Poyer and Hyde.

[BarleyNY]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't think you're looking at the whole picture.   Flacco has $44 million guaranteed left on his contract; Taylor had one year at, if I recall correctly, $10 million.   For all the Broncos know, Flacco may be done.  They're taking a much bigger dollar risk than the Browns took on Taylor, so they got a discount.   Or looked at it the other way, the Ravens got a fourth round pick AND dumped $44 million.   They're probably thrilled.  

 

Flacco has zero guaranteed dolllars left on his contract. It did have $44M in guarantees but those have already been paid out. That’s probably what you saw.   

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/joe-flacco-4000/

[Trogdor]

35 minutes ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

So I guess you don't like Poyer and Hyde.

Considering he had nothing to do with those 2 lol. Those are textbook Whaley moves. 

 

1 hour ago, BillsSB2020 said:

You do understand that the Bills brass fully expected a down 2018 in preparation for this off season, correct? They have their QB and all the resources necessary to make this thing work. You may not like the approach, but how can you not be excited about the upcoming season when they've done such a solid job of setting this thing up. At least give em a shot.

I think that the Jets proved last offseason that money alone won't entice big names. They were left with a ton of cap room and nobody to spend it on. The Bills are not an attractive landing spot and the additions over the last 2 years haven't been great. It's probably going to take 2-3 years just to get the Oline fixed. 

[Augie]

Almost any thread with “Witchery” in the title is at least kinda fun.  ?

[Captain_Quint]

10 hours ago, BillsVet said:

Except Beane's not graded on how well he does on individual trades, even though everyone wants to declare victory immediately on moves these days.

 

Beane is graded on building a roster, and through 2 off-seasons he and McCoach have a far from finished product ready to compete and win championships.

 

You can take your individual trade victories, but over the long haul it doesn't matter. 

 

Someone didnt get a Valentine today. 

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Captain_Quint said:

Someone didnt get a Valentine today. 

 

You didn't?  I'm sorry. 

[BillsVet]

2 hours ago, Binghamton Beast said:

I don't need to fact check my posts because they are accurate.

 

Watkins and Darby were traded in the pre-season of 2017. That was in-season.

 

Brandon Beane was hired in May of 2017. That was after free agency and after the draft.

 

Brandon Beane has one draft and one free agency period under his belt. This will be his second for both.

 

Do you think Brandon Beane had anything to do with the trade during the 2017 draft when Buffalo moved in front of Carolina to take Dion Dawkins, who was high on the Panthers' board?  Coincidence? After all, Beane wasn't "officially" in Buffalo at that point.  

 

Beane and McCoach are linked together to make decisions on personnel. There is no one player acquired or sent packing without both agreeing and that's how they've want it. 

 

McBeane's first combined foray into UFA hasn't proven to be spectacular.  The 2018 draft is TBD.  

[BillsSB2020]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

Considering he had nothing to do with those 2 lol. Those are textbook Whaley moves. 

 

I think that the Jets proved last offseason that money alone won't entice big names. They were left with a ton of cap room and nobody to spend it on. The Bills are not an attractive landing spot and the additions over the last 2 years haven't been great. It's probably going to take 2-3 years just to get the Oline fixed. 

I have a feeling word around the league is spreading about the Bills future. Just an optimistic feeling. I think Allen and the culture are going to help lure fellas in. It's not just about the money although the Beane man has certainly created the space to make the big moves.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Getting a 3rd round pick for TT was great. A+

Starting the season with Nathan Peterman as the QB was worst decision in the NFL.  F-

Must look at the totality of the decisions made

[Trogdor]

8 minutes ago, BillsSB2020 said:

I have a feeling word around the league is spreading about the Bills future. Just an optimistic feeling. I think Allen and the culture are going to help lure fellas in. It's not just about the money although the Beane man has certainly created the space to make the big moves.

There are already proven QBs on teams that can win now and have holes. What makes you think that an athletic but unprove QB is going to entice big names? People quitting at halftime doesn't really scream culture. I think they need people to perform before it will really entice people. 

[BillsSB2020]

3 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

There are already proven QBs on teams that can win now and have holes. What makes you think that an athletic but unprove QB is going to entice big names? People quitting at halftime doesn't really scream culture. I think they need people to perform before it will really entice people. 

I would say the culture we're building here is better than anything going on with the Jets and we may very well be competing with them for FA's. Indy's a whole different beast because they've got it going on. I know there are plenty of other teams with cap space, but there are quite a few reasons the Bills will be able to get some great things done in free agency. I believe McDermott is a strong leader that will help lure some of these FA's to our fair city.

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

?

 

The Bears are the example this year. Worst to first in one year. 

So lets get Josh Allen the targets  Mitch T. got this year?

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, BillsVet said:

Except Beane's not graded on how well he does on individual trades, even though everyone wants to declare victory immediately on moves these days.

 

Beane is graded on building a roster, and through 2 off-seasons he and McCoach have a far from finished product ready to compete and win championships.

 

You can take your individual trade victories, but over the long haul it doesn't matter. 

 

 

 

Sure it matters. Small good moves are what good teams are built through. And two good years of McDermott and 1.5 of Beane are not long enough to judge a rebuild by. Same deal as with one move, but more so. It's true that they're not there yet. But rebuilds take more than two years, that's just the deal.

 

The best rebuild I know of is the Walsh rebuild of the 49ers, a Super Bowl victory in three years. But in his second year, they had 6 wins.

 

Witchery is way overstating it, IMO, but it was a good deal for us, a very good deal.

 

You're right, BillsVet, that they have a lot more to prove. But surely we can still talk about individual moves. What else would we talk about this early in the process?

Edited February 15, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Come on John.

 

Theres examples of teams going from worse to first EVERY YEAR. 

 

The 2007 Miami Dolphins went 1-15. The next year they went 11-5. 

 

 

Yes, worst to first. Every year? Not hardly. But yeah, it's not wildly unusual.

 

But that's a completely different thing from how long a rebuild takes. John's response was "It does when you are completely rebuilding it." You completely ignored that and talked not about rebuilding but about teams suddenly getting better. But again, John referred to rebuilding it. Of your two examples here, the Bears and the Fins, neither was a rebuild. Last year was Pace's fourth as GM. He had been working on putting together a good roster for a long time. You can act like the turnaround was all the result of what happened early last year, but it wasn't. It was a roster that had been improving for years, and a GM who decided to reload with a different coach.

 

In your other example, 2007 was the third year, not the first, for Dolphin GM Randy Mueller. Yeah, they fired Saban but they weren't rebuilding. Bringing in your new starting QB in a trade (Pennington) is the textbook definition for reloading, in fact.

 

For another example, the Walsh 49ers I referred to above went from six wins to a Lombardi in one year. But that year was the third year of a rebuild. In fact, that's how rebuilds work most of the time. There's two, three or even four years of team-building and then at some point the successful rebuilds hit a tipping point.

 

Hitting a tipping point in one year doesn't mean all the improvement is only the result of one year's work. In fact, that's not the way it works, but most particularly so in rebuilds.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Thurman#1

[cba fan]

11 hours ago, Logic said:

If we're talking Beane witchery, can we add in the fact that he just signed a player for 1.2 million that JUST LAST YEAR signed for 9 million per year? I realize said player fought through injuries last year, hence the reduced pay level on his new team, but still. Beane got a GREAT deal with Spencer Long who, if healthy, represents a starting level guard or center in this league and is a definite improvement over what the Bills had in 2018.

I agree...however your math is off.

 

If Long is only costing Bills 1.2 million it means they cut him before the 2019 season and do not have him at all. That would then be a fail.

If he pans out he cost about 4 mill yr 1 and then about 4.25 yr 2 and 4.35 yr 3. Good deal if he returns to form and beats the injury bug.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/spencer-long-14488/

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

Sure it matters. Small good moves are what good teams are built through. And two good years of McDermott and 1.5 of Beane are not long enough to judge a rebuild by. Same deal as with one move, but more so. It's true that they're not there yet. But rebuilds take more than two years, that's just the deal.

 

The best rebuild I know of is the Walsh rebuild of the 49ers, a Super Bowl victory in three years. But in his second year, they had 6 wins.

 

Witchery is way overstating it, IMO, but it was a good deal for us, a very good deal.

 

You're right, BillsVet, that they have a lot more to prove. But surely we can still talk about individual moves. What else would we talk about this early in the process?

 

Yes, several good moves will eventually make a good roster.  I would agree the TT trade was a solid move and more than I expected Beane would get for someone they couldn't really afford either. 

 

The jury is out though on this regime.  They are better than previous OBD incarnations, but the NFL is more competitive than ever and way more than during the DJ years.    

 

As for Walsh and the 49ers, that was well before UFA.  And Walsh was a supreme talent evaluator well ahead of his peers.  I hesitate making comparisons to before the year 2000 when it comes to rebuilding with the game being so different.  

[NoHuddleKelly12]

58 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Yes, several good moves will eventually make a good roster.  I would agree the TT trade was a solid move and more than I expected Beane would get for someone they couldn't really afford either. 

 

The jury is out though on this regime.  They are better than previous OBD incarnations, but the NFL is more competitive than ever and way more than during the DJ years.    

 

As for Walsh and the 49ers, that was well before UFA.  And Walsh was a supreme talent evaluator well ahead of his peers.  I hesitate making comparisons to before the year 2000 when it comes to rebuilding with the game being so different.  

Exactly; which arguably makes a ‘worst to first’ type rebuild that much more impressive during that era, when the NFL didn’t prioritize parity or ease of FA movement. The big boys of that era would’ve been that much harder to unseat. Not saying it should be easy for McBeane to engineer this kind of turnaround, but it does give me optimism that it will be well within reach. 

[BillsFan1988]

8 hours ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

So I guess you don't like Poyer and Hyde.

Beane signed Poyer and Hyde I must be mistaken. Nope I'm not it was Whaley and his staff.

 

Mcd should of kept Monos and Shepherd on the staff those guys knew some talent. Monos was excellent player personnel director. With Monos ability to find talent in free agency and Beane draft and un drafted skills would be a great combo.

Edited February 15, 2019 by BillsFan1988