Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, row_33 said: that's kind of blase about $20billion, it's all leveraged to the hilt.... nobody will insure it down the road it will wipe out football below the pro level without insurance Don’t buy it. Organized leagues will simply get better at protecting from liability. Despite the recent attention many sports have risk. https://www.activekids.com/cheerleading/articles/cheerleading-the-most-dangerous-sport good news is a century from now all sports partipcation May just be played through virtual reality in your hologram room from the hover couch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da webster guy Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said: Thats because insurance agency's are nothing but crooks. All they want is to take your money and then not cover what they are supposed to . Nothing but legalized extortion forced on us by our worthless government. Hmmm. State Farm is the largest insurance company, and they're mutually owned (meaning owned by customers to buy their policies). They employ about 70,000 Americans and have almost never had layoffs in their history. The majority of insurance companies are publicly owned, so if you want you could buy shares and own them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 hours ago, row_33 said: in the late 70s high schools in Ontario were put in the grind over helmet insurance, the concern was for spinal cord injuries back then, how little we knew what was coming. in addition the school bus insurance skyrocketed, remember a beat up old bus for high school sports (and driving the elderly to church on Sunday) A good read, something to file away as it looms larger. A pro athlete is an employee and if they played one game in the state of California they are entitled to a lot of workers comp options.... No longer.That changed in California in 2013.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojo44 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 hours ago, row_33 said: We all say that, and everyone has known smoking is hazardous to one's health (officially announced in the early 1960s), but when people get sick they sue everyone they can shake a stick at. The reason why the tobacco companies were successfully sued is because they injected their product with hyper amounts of nicotine. They were, essentially, nicotine delivery systems. It wasn’t just the natural tobacco. That is why they were successfully sued. It was deemed, and appropriately so, that they duped and mislead the public. It’s a different animal from the football issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 26 minutes ago, Mojo44 said: The reason why the tobacco companies were successfully sued is because they injected their product with hyper amounts of nicotine. They were, essentially, nicotine delivery systems. It wasn’t just the natural tobacco. That is why they were successfully sued. It was deemed, and appropriately so, that they duped and mislead the public. It’s a different animal from the football issue weasel stuff people knew it was killing them the whole time and still continue smoking to this day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaT Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 They make enough money they could self insure this risk and just purchase excess liability coverage, if possible, thru specialty markets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said: Thats because insurance agency's are nothing but crooks. All they want is to take your money and then not cover what they are supposed to . Nothing but legalized extortion forced on us by our worthless government. BAM! Tell it Baby! I could go on but you have summed it up nicely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojo44 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, row_33 said: weasel stuff people knew it was killing them the whole time and still continue smoking to this day Plain and simple you are dead wrong. The history is clear. But you are entitled to your own opinion. But not to your own facts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, Mojo44 said: Plain and simple you are dead wrong. The history is clear. But you are entitled to your own opinion. But not to your own facts. i don't recognize your self-appointment to dictate facts to people, or to be a troll like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said: Oh don't get me wrong--many attorneys will make a boatload of cash over many years along the way to iron out the contractual niceties this would take, and as for denial of liability, well, that's usually the first insurance defense mechanism to pursue regardless of which insurer you want to reference--how would it be that much different? You get a BAM! Too, just like Barbarian. Rave on brother 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojo44 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, row_33 said: i don't recognize your self-appointment to dictate facts to people, or to be a troll like that. Not a troll, I have been here for years. Your recognition is inconsequential to me. We disagree, deal with it. Have a nice day. You can have the last word. Just stating the facts. Look it up 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, row_33 said: thanks for your input, much appreciated, bears keeping an eye on over the next few years friends think football will go the way of boxing and horse racing over the next decade It is going to take longer than a decade, but there be changes. Boxing is making a modest comeback and MMA is huge. Men and some women are always going to want to hit somebody. And there are always going to be people who enjoy watching. So between the cash, the need, and the desire Football will be around for awhile. Jerry, Kraft and Pegs ain’t lettin’ this cash cow lose that much. I do see the other side of the equation though. My sons don’t play and don’t care a bit about football. They are part of the generation that has lots of options in which they choose to participate. The struggle continues..... 1 hour ago, row_33 said: hmmmm... maybe a disappearance of actually watching sporting events for 3-4 hours at a clip? just put robots out there so people can play with their iPhones non-stop at the game and make a bet every 10 seconds? soccer is a drag mostly, you can't force a superior team to care out there is they don't feel like it for 75 minutes Soccer is a drag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sack Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 It comes down to money. The idea that an insurance company can make someone whole is ludicrous. The better question is what we can do to make the game safer? As a country we have a vested interest to make every sport safer. Injuries are a natural occurrence but there are steps we can take to improve player safety. Its well documented your brain isn’t done developing until your early 20s. You’d hate to see this, but perhaps it’s time to eliminate contact football until age 16. For all football players have them not play anything besides touch until 16. This would allow most sophomores and up on JV or varsity the chance to play 1-3 seasons of contact football. One radical idea is to allow two hand touch to “tackle” defenseless receivers. This would elimate a lot of the 50/50 big hits over the middle of the field. Eliminating the use of hands to any helmet also enchances safety. As for new technology one idea would be to eliminate the movement of the head by locking the neck into position with the upper body, thereby eliminating rotational forces which greatly increase concussions. Last there have been experiments with new helmets such as an exterior padded helmet with a harden underlayer followed by another soft layer. Making the helmets & shoulder pads softer would reduce the intensity of each collision. Finally nothing can be done to completely eliminate concussions & CTE, but new rules & technology can reduce the frequency and severity of injuries. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 4 hours ago, row_33 said: there will be nobody to insure players for brain injuries especially for 30 years down the road What about MMA? How can this even exist? In 10 years there is going to be an entire species of dangerous, brain damaged people from taking elbows to the head, and everything else they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, iinii said: Soccer is a drag? yeah, full bore it won't catch on here except in small pockets of fans and a fake interest in the sport during the World Cup. Edited January 21, 2019 by row_33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Good topic. Some here are focused on the pro teams but the key issue is high schools. If they can't get insurance then the pipeline to college ball dries up, and thus to the pros. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 4 hours ago, papazoid said: self insure hold harmless clauses ...the NFLPA would NEVER allow player hold harmless clauses in the CBA.....secondly, I doubt individual states (WC policies written by state by payroll exposure in that state) would allow it....rates are based on classification risk and actuarial data.....so a roofer, steel worker or asbestos worker as examples, are at a much hire risk than a secretary which is reflected in classification rates.....NO state would ever permit coverage to be precluded by forcing an asbestos worker to sign a hold harmless clause..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 The real risk to the future of football is parents saying they do not want their kids to play the sport. The risks to kids are undeniable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: Good topic. Some here are focused on the pro teams but the key issue is high schools. If they can't get insurance then the pipeline to college ball dries up, and thus to the pros. There are still a bunch of school programs that cover football. It is certainly an expense for the schools to insure football (cheerleading and soccer). I don’t see a situation where it disappears, there will just be less companies writing it which will raise premiums. 35 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said: The real risk to the future of football is parents saying they do not want their kids to play the sport. The risks to kids are undeniable. This is the wild card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, row_33 said: yeah, full bore it won't catch on here except in small pockets of fans and a fake interest in the sport during the World Cup. It will never be like it is in the rest of the world due to the competition but I don’t think it is boring at all and growing pockets as you say don’t either. Big things are happening in Atlanta with the game. People like Little Wayne and other super stars’ kids are all in. That will have a very positive effect commercially and a sign of change. I Can’t wait to see Messi at Camp Nou! Which is why they make chocolate and vanilla? 3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: This is the wild card. I believe it is more than a wild card. It guarantees a shrinking pool of potential athletes and fans. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: There are still a bunch of school programs that cover football. It is certainly an expense for the schools to insure football (cheerleading and soccer). I don’t see a situation where it disappears, there will just be less companies writing it which will raise premiums. This is the wild card. Outside a few southern states - the sport is losing ground. When school systems see rates go up with the high risk and less competition, school planners will look to save money. I live in one of the wealthiest counties in the country with overcrowded schools and one of our 12 high schools could not field a varsity team this year (1600 kids in the school). Football as we know it is a dead man walking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOKIE Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 6 hours ago, MJS said: This is overblown. Even if tons of schools stop having a football program, do you think any of those southern schools will stop? In many of those areas high school football is bigger than any other sport, including college and NFL football. They'll pay what it takes to keep the programs going, and have plenty of boosters and doners to ensure it. Until they dont.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said: What about MMA? How can this even exist? In 10 years there is going to be an entire species of dangerous, brain damaged people from taking elbows to the head, and everything else they do. Youre not accounting for size. How many kids at your average HS play football. JV and Varsity, about 40-60 each. About 100 per school. Conservatively 20 high school teams alone in the region. Plus middle school and pee wee teams. There are probably 2500 to 3000 kids in Buffalo alone, running into each other head first for two hours everyday plus Friday/Saturday games. There are much fewer kids in MMA. Tournaments are far less than sparring and training. None have an affiliation with a school or municipality. Apples to oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 7 hours ago, Mango said: I have been beating this drum for a while. Football will drastically diminish or go away entirely because it becomes too expensive to insure for schools and municipalities. Sure there will be some drop because more parents won't want their kids to play given the CTE issue. But eventually there will be hugely won court cases, and insurance companies will make it so expensive for middle america and below, that football won't even be an option for a lot of kids. Not without a hefty price tag at least. Even so, those white collar areas will have to heavily compete with sports like row/crew, hockey, lacrosse, etc. People won't stop playing the sport in large numbers because people are running from the head injury risk. Insurance companies will make that decision for them in a lot of places. I am fairly confident in saying that my grand kids most likely won't grow up playing football or even with the NFL. I am in my early 30's and no kids. Probably 40 years at least from being a grandpa. After seeing the toll that football has taken on his father Thurman Thomas's son decided not play football. Parents are steering their kids away from football to other sports because of the risks associated with the game. Thurman's son is a very good baseball player. https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/07/09/thurman-thomas-open-about-memory-loss-other-issues-related-to-concussions/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 7 hours ago, gjv001 said: Why southern schools? Do you know of a difference that people in the south have about their children vs other parts of the country? Yes. High school football is huge in the south. Nobody cares about it most places in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, MJS said: Yes. High school football is huge in the south. Nobody cares about it most places in the US. 1000 colleges and the NFL are not going to survive on Texas high school football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, SDS said: 1000 colleges and the NFL are not going to survive on Texas high school football. We’ve kind of seen it for the last 15-20 years already. The best college teams are loaded with kids from Georgia, Florida, Texas, Louisiana and Alabama. The talent is down here because they are still playing the game. You’ve seen a massive drop off out west. The best players out west are now heading east and there aren’t enough guys playing for USC to be relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) So why aren't we talking about hockey and soccer being at risk? Solution. Plastic bubbles. Also, "Last April, researchers at the Veterans Administration Boston Healthcare System and Boston University reported that participating in tackle football before age 12 "appears to increase vulnerability to the effects of CTE and other brain disease or conditions." That's red flag b.s. city to me. Has anyone seen an 8/9 or 10/11 yo park and rec football practice? I've been coaching them for 7 years. I guess its bc I have a functional brain, the 2 or 3 times we practice a week actual "head contact" is a limited practice (because THEY DONT REALLY KNOW HOW TO HIT AND MOST WANT NO PART OF CONTACT and old school garbage like bull in the ring is extinct....I protect the kids while still playing the game the right way); so to just say playing under 12 puts you at risk.....wth does that even mean? What positions? How frequently the contact? I'm still not 100 percent in on this. Still can only see it in the deceased who may very well had a lot of things going on perhaps wired to be more susceptible.....I dont know....and dont misunderstand...I'm not blowing it off either. I have a 13 and 10 year old that play. I have ZERO reservations. They love the game. It is not a case of Dad makes me play. Edited January 22, 2019 by Big Blitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 2 hours ago, JohnC said: After seeing the toll that football has taken on his father Thurman Thomas's son decided not play football. Parents are steering their kids away from football to other sports because of the risks associated with the game. Thurman's son is a very good baseball player. https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/07/09/thurman-thomas-open-about-memory-loss-other-issues-related-to-concussions/ Oh I totally agree with you. Just touching on the insurance issue in the thread. I do think the “end” or drastic decline in the sport will come from availability due to insurance, not that kids will just stop playing. Doesn't mean it’s not happening. It’s just a much slower burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, Mango said: Oh I totally agree with you. Just touching on the insurance issue in the thread. I do think the “end” or drastic decline in the sport will come from availability due to insurance, not that kids will just stop playing. Doesn't mean it’s not happening. It’s just a much slower burn. Imagine a scenario where only well to do kids/schools can even afford football. That would certainly alter the landscape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 8 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: The NFL handles the work comp (I think for all teams). So the umbrella is sitting over the employers liability portion of the comp (as well as the GL and auto). We write the GL, cyber, crime, $75m umbrella, employment practices (tough placement for that too), auto and some property for the Saints. It’s about $1.1M in premium which really is quite cheap. I think he’s talking about more so, how much will it cost in 10 years for the town of Tonawanda to insure KAT, TTFA, and high school football teams. Filled with underaged kids, not adults making millions. Do most townships have it in the budget to fit that bill down the road/is it worth it? I coached a kid in a different sport with 5 concussions from football. It’s been about 6 years since he played football. It took him an extra two years to graduate high school because he can’t sit through class, read, or sleep through the night for that matter. What happens when that kid comes from a very well off family and ties up the district in costly litigation? What happens if that family happens to win a large settlement because of negligence from the district employed head coach? Do other townships take note and bow out of the sport because premiums go up through the roof? 2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said: Imagine a scenario where only well to do kids/schools can even afford football. That would certainly alter the landscape. Absolutely! And they compete with more “white bread” sports like hockey, rowing, and lacrosse? (Not that there isn’t serious risk in any of those) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said: Imagine a scenario where only well to do kids/schools can even afford football. That would certainly alter the landscape. That will make for a small pool of talent for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, iinii said: That will make for a small pool of talent for sure. Would certainly change the complexion of the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven50 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 10 hours ago, gjv001 said: Why southern schools? Do you know of a difference that people in the south have about their children vs other parts of the country? I am pretty sure he is talking about the culture. I have coached down south and up here and he is right. The turn out for highshool and LL football down south is phenomenal. Locally I think we have some show on Saturday that covers high-school ball. Down there they are talking about it all week during prime time. Its just a different animal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Lots of small changes can add up to a huge improvement For example, when a guy is on the ground tap him with your hand rather than diving on top of him like a missile Seems basic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 3 hours ago, SDS said: 1000 colleges and the NFL are not going to survive on Texas high school football. I disagree. I don't think football is going anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 13 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: I’m sure no one will figure out how to sustain this $20 billion industry. ? I'm sure they will. But part of the way they sustain it may well be refusing to cover certain things like this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 16 hours ago, papazoid said: self insure hold harmless clauses In general, you can't contract away freedom from the consequences of your own negligence and self insurance is not a financially viable option for most organizations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 16 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said: Thats because insurance agency's are nothing but crooks. All they want is to take your money and then not cover what they are supposed to . Nothing but legalized extortion forced on us by our worthless government. Hmmm...and yet, when I had kidney cancer back in the late '90's, my insurance company footed the bill for the meds, the surgery, the hospital and so on. Saved my life and prevented my family from going bankrupt. And then there was the time that a hunk of ice the size of a small boat fell off the roof and obliterated my mini-van and my insurance company paid for a rental while I shopped for a new car which they also paid for. And boy was I glad I had insurance when my house was robbed by thieves who took everything, including my guitar "collection" (my primary security system, a very large dog, had passed away earlier that week). People get insurance because it is monumentally stupid not to and because, things happen. And yes, insurance companies are crooks but there are laws and regulations (issued by the big bad government hiding under your bed) which limit their crookery and force them to pay valid claims. So when they tried to cheat my wife us when the bill came due for my wife's maternal care when our first daughter was born, I filed a complaint with the State and within 10 days the insurer sent me a check and an apology. And when my neighbor's son lost his arm in a hunting accident and the insurance company wouldn't pay for a prosthetic that would help him keep his job, we filed an outside appeal, as provided by the "worthless government" of the state of NY and he got his prosthetic. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 13 hours ago, BubbaT said: They make enough money they could self insure this risk and just purchase excess liability coverage, if possible, thru specialty markets The cost of the suit the NFL settled is around a billion dollars. The article found 29 such suits now pending in 18 different sports. I don't see the high schools in my local district being capable of self insuring losses that large. There are 18 school districts in Onondaga County, most have at least one varsity and one JV football team though a couple don't have football teams at all. That is nearly as many teams in the NFL and those players are certainly vulnerable to concussions and CTE. No way they can handle being self insured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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