Josh Allen’s Adjusted Completion Percentage = 72.7%

[C.Biscuit97]

5 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Michael Thomas was an absolute beast at Ohio State (despite catching passes from JT Barrett most of the time), and Josh Gordon had over 1,600 receiving yards in a single season catching passes from Jason Campbell, Brandon Weeden, and Brian Hoyer.

 

Like I said, it's too early to say anything definitive about any of these guys.  Buffalo's WRs are largely awful though.

 

I think it's a bit of both on the latter.  Kittle was darn good in college, just under-utilized.  Dante Pettis and Trent Taylor were both draft sleepers of mine as well.  But, Kyle Shanahan does a really good job of only asking his players to do what they're good at, which is something that Daboll looks like he's starting to figure out.

Zay Jones was a beast in college.  And as good as Thomas was, why was the 47th pick?  And I think you would agree he’s not the same player on the Jags as he is on the Saints.

 

but as others have said, it’s probsbly in the middle. What do you think?  Who makes the other more - wr or QBs?  

1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said:

You said they didn't have a number one on their roster so I responded to that. And a #2 pick in the supplemental is the same as a regular draft because you lose your #2 in the next draft. Dorsett has 27 catches and a couple TDs as a last resort, so he does play. Now you're saying Zay freakin' Jones is as good as Michael Thomas?! Thomas just gets elevated by his QB? Zay Jones is AWFUL. Thomas makes spectacular catches all the time. 

The guys who picked Allen, traded up for Zay and he was drafted higher than the guy at OSU!  I’m not a big Zay myself but if him and JuJu switch teams, Zay probably is a lot better (though I do agree JuJu is the far superior player and it’s ehy I wanted him badly in the draft).

[dave mcbride]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Zay Jones was a beast in college.  And as good as Thomas was, why was the 47th pick?  And I think you would agree he’s not the same player on the Jags as he is on the Saints.

 

but as others have said, it’s probsbly in the middle. What do you think?  Who makes the other more - wr or QBs?  

For a while now, when I think of Zay Jones, I think of this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Van_Dyke. I remember when he was drafted by the Jets as the first pick of the second round. Teams were high on him because of elite college production (he led the country in receptions and receiving yards), but the knock on him was the measurables: speed/quickness/leaping ability. We're re-living that episode, I fear. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by dave mcbride

[GoBills808]

21 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Who was a 5th round pick who had 700 yards in 4 years in college.  

I think you're falling into the same trap a lot of people do in using college stats to predict or define NFL quality. Kittle is legit, be it with Beathard or Mullens or whomever. 

 

You also need to take Shanahan into account. He's a very solid offensive mind. 

21 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

So it's Nick Mullens that is responsible for George Kittle's performance?  Is that really where you're intending to take this point?

If so, it's not a very good argument. Kittle was tearing it up before Mullens ever got a start with the Niners.

[WideNine]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I think you're falling into the same trap a lot of people do in using college stats to predict or define NFL quality. Kittle is legit, be it with Beathard or Mullens or whomever. 

 

You also need to take Shanahan into account. He's a very solid offensive mind. 

If so, it's not a very good argument. Kittle was tearing it up before Mullens ever got a start with the Niners.

 

What frustrates me most about evaluating kids coming up from college is the lack of finding out how many dropped passes they had.

 

Some may have been featured in very pass-heavy offenses and simply had enough passes their way to offset several drops to have great receiving stats.

 

The argument around Zay and Josh is not complete till you factor in that he dropped catchable passes all the time last year with Tyrod throwing them to him, dropped passes with a host of reserve QBs and Peterman throwing to him. The kid flat-out drops a lot of catchable balls and should not be in this conversation IMO.

 

Now if you had a solid receiver with great hands who suddenly tailed off because Josh was throwing him the ball - different story, and perhaps one that would deserve closer scrutiny.

[Kelly the Dog]

18 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Zay Jones was a beast in college.  And as good as Thomas was, why was the 47th pick?  And I think you would agree he’s not the same player on the Jags as he is on the Saints.

 

but as others have said, it’s probsbly in the middle. What do you think?  Who makes the other more - wr or QBs?  

The guys who picked Allen, traded up for Zay and he was drafted higher than the guy at OSU!  I’m not a big Zay myself but if him and JuJu switch teams, Zay probably is a lot better (though I do agree JuJu is the far superior player and it’s ehy I wanted him badly in the draft).

Zay would have been replaced by James Washington long ago.   Probably by opening day.

[SCBills]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Oh I did.  And that was more of a passing comment.  

 

But it I am getting a little tired about hearing how terrible our receivers are.  Who is Nick Mullens throwing to?  The Pats don’t have one receiver picked in the first round on their roster.  The Saints have a bunch of nobodies next to Rhomas, who was picked after Zay.  At some point, the qb needs to elevate the receivers. 

 

That said, Allen seems to have done that with Foster and that’s great to see.  But he is far from the only qb playing with questionable talent.

 

Allen needs to elevate his receivers?...  I watch a decent amount of football and NEVER see multiple drops per game like I do with our squad, let alone teams that have WR's that rarely make contested catches. 

 

Have you seen the stat about how Allen has to throw into tight windows every play due to the lack of separation?  That was particularly jarring.

[without a drought]

I see they just opened a "J.A. Excuse" store at the Factory Outlet Mall.

 

Buy 2 get 1 free till Christmas. Stock up now.

[suorangefan4]

So the same people who said "nice excuses" towards anyone who pointed out that several of Nathan Peterman's INTs were passes that hit the wide receivers right in the hands first or the receiver running a poor route or the offensive line letting him get smoked as he was throwing (he also had to face the toughest defenses) now want to make excuses that the receivers are responsible for Allen's low completion percentage? Funny how that works.

 

I like Allen but it absolutely annoys me the way people are so hypocritical.

Edited December 18, 2018 by suorangefan4

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, suorangefan4 said:

So the same people who said "nice excuses" towards anyone who pointed out that several of Nathan Peterman's INTs were passes that hit the wide receivers right in the hands first or the receiver running a poor route or the offensive line letting him get smoked as he was throwing (he also had to face the toughest defenses) now want to make excuses that the receivers are responsible for Allen's low completion percentage? Funny how that works.

 

I like Allen but it absolutely annoys me the way people are so hypocritical.

 

I think a lot of people made mention of that re: Peterman.  His problem was he coupled that with some weak arm outs that resulted in clean picks.

[C.Biscuit97]

32 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I think you're falling into the same trap a lot of people do in using college stats to predict or define NFL quality. Kittle is legit, be it with Beathard or Mullens or whomever. 

 

You also need to take Shanahan into account. He's a very solid offensive mind. 

If so, it's not a very good argument. Kittle was tearing it up before Mullens ever got a start with the Niners.

Fair points.  This is what I’m struggling with

 

1 - I get told Daboll is a good OC.  Shouldn’t a good OC get more than 15 points/ game, no matter that talent?  

 

2 - I think player development is huge.  The fact that Zay Jones isn’t more productive is a problem for us.

 

3 - mullens is their 3rd strong qb, their top two wrs are always injuried, yet he has a 96 QB rating and multiple 300 yards games.  Why can’t our offense be more productive?  

 

I thought Allen looked super poised and delivered some good footballs.  But man, it seems like it’s lot of work for us to score 2 tds. 

[Doc]

13 minutes ago, The Drought said:

I see they just opened a "J.A. Excuse" store at the Factory Outlet Mall.

 

Buy 2 get 1 free till Christmas. Stock up now.

 

So receivers dropping passes isn't a valid excuse.  The "lack of a grasp on reality" store called...

[C.Biscuit97]

19 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Allen needs to elevate his receivers?...  I watch a decent amount of football and NEVER see multiple drops per game like I do with our squad, let alone teams that have WR's that rarely make contested catches. 

 

Have you seen the stat about how Allen has to throw into tight windows every play due to the lack of separation?  That was particularly jarring.

You’re right.  Allen is the only qb in the history of the nfl to have receivers drop passes.  

 

Our receivers aren’t good and Allen isn’t always accurate.  It doesn’t have to be mutual exclusive.  But a 52.2% completion rate isn’t 100% on receivers and I pray Allen doesn’t thin kthat way either. 

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

So receivers dropping passes isn't a valid excuse.  The "lack of a grasp on reality" store called...

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=232

 

the dropped passes are holding Bortles back!  Again, it’s valid to point out drops.  But it’s goes both ways. 

 

P.S. the Chiefs are 5th.  Imagine Mahomes Adjusted completion %!

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Fair points.  This is what I’m struggling with

 

1 - I get told Daboll is a good OC.  Shouldn’t a good OC get more than 15 points/ game, no matter that talent?  

 

2 - I think player development is huge.  The fact that Zay Jones isn’t more productive is a problem for us.

 

3 - mullens is their 3rd strong qb, their top two wrs are always injuried, yet he has a 96 QB rating and multiple 300 yards games.  Why can’t our offense be more productive?  

 

I thought Allen looked super poised and delivered some good footballs.  But man, it seems like it’s lot of work for us to score 2 tds. 

I think Daboll is fine, but there's no part of me that thinks he's as good an offensive mind as Shanahan. That combined with their personnel advantage over the Bills is enough for me to explain the discrepancy in PPG. Again, I think looking at the Bills and Niners from an 'Allen vs. Mullens' perspective isn't going to tell you much.

[Doc]

12 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You’re right.  Allen is the only qb in the history of the nfl to have receivers drop passes.  

 

Our receivers aren’t good and Allen isn’t always accurate.  It doesn’t have to be mutual exclusive.  But a 52.2% completion rate isn’t 100% on receivers and I pray Allen doesn’t thin kthat way either. 

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=232

 

the dropped passes are holding Bortles back!  Again, it’s valid to point out drops.  But it’s goes both ways. 

 

P.S. the Chiefs are 5th.  Imagine Mahomes Adjusted completion %!

 

13 passes dropped?  LOL!

[oldmanfan]

17 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You’re right.  Allen is the only qb in the history of the nfl to have receivers drop passes.  

 

Our receivers aren’t good and Allen isn’t always accurate.  It doesn’t have to be mutual exclusive.  But a 52.2% completion rate isn’t 100% on receivers and I pray Allen doesn’t thin kthat way either. 

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=232

 

the dropped passes are holding Bortles back!  Again, it’s valid to point out drops.  But it’s goes both ways. 

 

P.S. the Chiefs are 5th.  Imagine Mahomes Adjusted completion %!

The chart does not show the percentage of each QBs throws that were dropped.  Mahomes for example has played 5 more games than Allen I believe.

 

Yet another example around here of throwing out some random stat without a true understanding of its value (or non-value).

[SCBills]

18 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You’re right.  Allen is the only qb in the history of the nfl to have receivers drop passes.  

 

Our receivers aren’t good and Allen isn’t always accurate.  It doesn’t have to be mutual exclusive.  But a 52.2% completion rate isn’t 100% on receivers and I pray Allen doesn’t thin kthat way either. 

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=232

 

the dropped passes are holding Bortles back!  Again, it’s valid to point out drops.  But it’s goes both ways. 

 

P.S. the Chiefs are 5th.  Imagine Mahomes Adjusted completion %!

 

It's absolutely not all on the receivers, but with just an average WR unit and a non-shenanigans OL, I think the advanced metrics show he can be a 60%+ completion rate passer, even with his asurdly high YPA downfield passing attack.

[oldmanfan]

He's a 60% completion rate already.  Just subtract out his throwaways.

[Billsfan1972]

29 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Fair points.  This is what I’m struggling with

 

1 - I get told Daboll is a good OC.  Shouldn’t a good OC get more than 15 points/ game, no matter that talent?  

 

2 - I think player development is huge.  The fact that Zay Jones isn’t more productive is a problem for us.

 

3 - mullens is their 3rd strong qb, their top two wrs are always injuried, yet he has a 96 QB rating and multiple 300 yards games.  Why can’t our offense be more productive?  

 

I thought Allen looked super poised and delivered some good footballs.  But man, it seems like it’s lot of work for us to score 2 tds. 

Oh and both TD drives were aided by huge PI's on Detroit (43 & 23 yards).  This offense and play calling is pathetic.  

 

McD wet his pants with this weekends 14-13 result......

 

 

[BillsSB2020]

I love Josh Allen but I find it a little bit strange the way some throw every single player under the bus to fit a narrative.

 

The kids gonna be a stud, but he's gotta put in the time to improve. We know he's not a finished product. I love the Bills and hate to see so many players trashed on a daily basis. 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, BillsSB2020 said:

I love Josh Allen but I find it a little bit strange the way some throw every single player under the bus to fit a narrative.

 

The kids gonna be a stud, but he's gotta put in the time to improve. We know he's not a finished product. I love the Bills and hate to see so many players trashed on a daily basis. 

Right. He's got a ways to go and lots to learn. I just get tired of folks trying to misuse data to fit their preconceived notion that he won't cut it.  I think any objective analysis of the kid would say he's developing nicely at this point.

[Billsfan1972]

How anyone can not watch the Bills and not see that they do not make tough or contested receptions & drop an inordinate amount of balls is out & out lying.

[WideNine]

36 minutes ago, suorangefan4 said:

So the same people who said "nice excuses" towards anyone who pointed out that several of Nathan Peterman's INTs were passes that hit the wide receivers right in the hands first or the receiver running a poor route or the offensive line letting him get smoked as he was throwing (he also had to face the toughest defenses) now want to make excuses that the receivers are responsible for Allen's low completion percentage? Funny how that works.

 

I like Allen but it absolutely annoys me the way people are so hypocritical.

 

I know the Peterman subject is a sore one for most, but Peterman had his chances and they were epic terrible offensive outings. From all accounts the team liked Peterman and I don't get the sense anyone gave up on him, he just could not sense the rush or escape it which led to a lot of turnovers. Not just this year, but also when he had a much better o-line in front of him than Allen the year before when he filled in for an injured Tyrod, so folks just need to let that one go.

 

I only mentioned him in regards to Zay dropped passes from him, and Tyrod, and any other QB throwing to him - that is all.

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

8 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Oh and both TD drives were aided by huge PI's on Detroit (43 & 23 yards).  This offense and play calling is pathetic.  

 

McD wet his pants with this weekends 14-13 result......

 

 

Haha.  I do wish there was a way to credit PI for both the qb and wr.  They are huge plans and Allen/receivers deserve credit for them.

 

its also what I hate about conservative coaches.  The nfl wants you to throw and call penalties.  They should take deep shots on almost every series.  

[WideNine]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Haha.  I do wish there was a way to credit PI for both the qb and wr.  They are huge plans and Allen/receivers deserve credit for them.

 

its also what I hate about conservative coaches.  The nfl wants you to throw and call penalties.  They should take deep shots on almost every series.  

 

Truth - and the reason for the hard count and the free pass play that they always go for.. most teams will get a PI, the refs were a bit wishy-washy on the calls last week. I would think you should take a few shots to see if they are calling it tight or not and if they are - go for it whenever you get that man coverage.

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Zay Jones was a beast in college.  And as good as Thomas was, why was the 47th pick?  And I think you would agree he’s not the same player on the Jags as he is on the Saints.

 

but as others have said, it’s probsbly in the middle. What do you think?  Who makes the other more - wr or QBs?  

 

 

It depends.

 

If you have a pinpoint-accurate QB that can put the ball wherever he wants to, all the time, then it's generally the QB that makes the WR.  Those guys (Brady, Brees) are few and far between, and with them, you can almost put anybody on the field and they'll be successful.

 

The rest of the time, you're looking at guys that are just accurate enough.  The league is littered with them.  For these guys to have success, you need to have enough pass-catchers that are capable of creating separation consistently.  If you do so, then they'll have huge success.  For example:

 

- Surround a guy like Mahomes (or Alex Smith before him) with Hunt, Hill, Kelce, Watkins, and even second-tier targets like Demetrius Harris, Chris Conley, and Demarcus Robinson and they'll put up numbers

- Surround Goff with Gurley, Woods, Cooks, Kupp, Reynolds, Everett, and Higbee and he'll put up numbers

- Surround Trubisky with Howard, Cohen, Robinson, Miller, Gabriel, and Burton and he'll put up numbers

 

But the opposite is also true:

 

- Move Alex Smith from KC to Washington, where his targets are nowhere near as good, and his TD:INT ratio drops massively, his YPA is down by nearly a yard-and-a-half, and he loses 5 completion percentage points

- Move Case Keenum from Minnesota to Denver, where his targets are nowhere near as good, and he's an entirely different player

 

With regard to Allen, he clearly falls into the second category.  So I guess I'll pose a question back at you, because I genuinely am interested in your take:

 

If Allen had Kareem Hunt, Tyreek Hill, Sammy Watkins, Chris Conley, and Travis Kelce at his disposal next season, do you think his performance would improve significantly?

[Chicken Boo]

52 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

So receivers dropping passes isn't a valid excuse.  The "lack of a grasp on reality" store called...

 

Did you catch the part where he still ranks 23rd in the league accounting for the other starting QBs adjusted percentage?

[thebandit27]

17 minutes ago, BillsSB2020 said:

I love Josh Allen but I find it a little bit strange the way some throw every single player under the bus to fit a narrative.

 

The kids gonna be a stud, but he's gotta put in the time to improve. We know he's not a finished product. I love the Bills and hate to see so many players trashed on a daily basis. 

 

 I don't think that happens much to be honest.  I think that there are some guys that are clearly assets for him, like Foster and McKenzie.  I also think that, by and large, the rest of his receiving targets might not belong in the NFL.

 

Kelvin Benjamin was an abomination.  Per NextGenStats, he creates less separation per route run than any other WR in the game, and has the game's highest drop rate.  He's literally the worst receiver in football.

Zay Jones has had his moments, but the last 2 games have shown a serious regression...not quite to 2017 form, but it's not good.

Deonte Thompson hasn't looked at all like the player that was the team's most consistent deep threat in 2017.  I can see why Dallas let him go.

 

[BillsSB2020]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

 I don't think that happens much to be honest.  I think that there are some guys that are clearly assets for him, like Foster and McKenzie.  I also think that, by and large, the rest of his receiving targets might not belong in the NFL.

 

Kelvin Benjamin was an abomination.  Per NextGenStats, he creates less separation per route run than any other WR in the game, and has the game's highest drop rate.  He's literally the worst receiver in football.

Zay Jones has had his moments, but the last 2 games have shown a serious regression...not quite to 2017 form, but it's not good.

Deonte Thompson hasn't looked at all like the player that was the team's most consistent deep threat in 2017.  I can see why Dallas let him go.

 

Oh Kelvin Benjamin sucks and the receiving core is coming into form a bit but still subpar. The OL pass blocking is also subpar.

 

Just seems like we trash everyone anytime things go poorly on offense. I support all Bills players so long as they're putting in the work.

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, BillsSB2020 said:

Oh Kelvin Benjamin sucks and the receiving core is coming into form a bit but still subpar. The OL pass blocking is also subpar.

 

Just seems like we trash everyone anytime things go poorly on offense. I support all Bills players so long as they're putting in the work.

 

I think we all support our guys, but it still makes sense to call 'em like you see 'em.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 hours ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

He also didnt seem to understand GIFs, has he been on the internet before yesterday? LOL

If true Wow.  

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But it I am getting a little tired about hearing how terrible our receivers are.  Who is Nick Mullens throwing to?  The Pats don’t have one receiver picked in the first round on their roster.  The Saints have a bunch of nobodies next to Rhomas, who was picked after Zay.  At some point, the qb needs to elevate the receivers. 

 

I will take any WR in the league that is #4 or better on their roster over Zay Jones. If I'm remembering what I read correctly, Zay had 6 targets on Sunday and only caught 1 pass. He is useless. He is our #2 receiver and he is completely useless. McKenzie and Foster ARE being elevated by Allen, more than I think we give him credit for. No one in the league can elevate Zay, except for some timely pass interference calls.

[C.Biscuit97]

31 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

It depends.

 

If you have a pinpoint-accurate QB that can put the ball wherever he wants to, all the time, then it's generally the QB that makes the WR.  Those guys (Brady, Brees) are few and far between, and with them, you can almost put anybody on the field and they'll be successful.

 

The rest of the time, you're looking at guys that are just accurate enough.  The league is littered with them.  For these guys to have success, you need to have enough pass-catchers that are capable of creating separation consistently.  If you do so, then they'll have huge success.  For example:

 

- Surround a guy like Mahomes (or Alex Smith before him) with Hunt, Hill, Kelce, Watkins, and even second-tier targets like Demetrius Harris, Chris Conley, and Demarcus Robinson and they'll put up numbers

- Surround Goff with Gurley, Woods, Cooks, Kupp, Reynolds, Everett, and Higbee and he'll put up numbers

- Surround Trubisky with Howard, Cohen, Robinson, Miller, Gabriel, and Burton and he'll put up numbers

 

But the opposite is also true:

 

- Move Alex Smith from KC to Washington, where his targets are nowhere near as good, and his TD:INT ratio drops massively, his YPA is down by nearly a yard-and-a-half, and he loses 5 completion percentage points

- Move Case Keenum from Minnesota to Denver, where his targets are nowhere near as good, and he's an entirely different player

 

With regard to Allen, he clearly falls into the second category.  So I guess I'll pose a question back at you, because I genuinely am interested in your take:

 

If Allen had Kareem Hunt, Tyreek Hill, Sammy Watkins, Chris Conley, and Travis Kelce at his disposal next season, do you think his performance would improve significantly?

He definitely improves with those guys but I still think it is a significant drop off from what Mahomes is doing.  I think Mahomes is trying special.  He makes those touch crossing passes that few qbs can make.  He only runs when he absolutely needs to.

 

also, I’ve seen Mahomes do it before he played for KC.  He put up video games numbers and dominated in college.  That was another knock I had on Allen.  He rarely had monster games in college.  And while I’m fairly happy with how he is progressing, the ceiling seems to be 2-3 tds.  If the team improves, perhaps that will be raised.

 

 Now to flip the script: what do you think the Bills record would be with Mahomes?  I think he would benefit from having a top defense instead of one of the worst ones.  I do also realize the offensive talent is worse on our team but I believe we would be a playoff spot with him. 

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

I will take any WR in the league that is #4 or better on their roster over Zay Jones. If I'm remembering what I read correctly, Zay had 6 targets on Sunday and only caught 1 pass. He is useless. He is our #2 receiver and he is completely useless. McKenzie and Foster ARE being elevated by Allen, more than I think we give him credit for. No one in the league can elevate Zay, except for some timely pass interference calls.

The same front office that drafted Allen (and please don’t pretend like it was Whaley) traded up to draft Zay.  That doesn’t worry you?

[Kelly the Dog]

20 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

The same front office that drafted Allen (and please don’t pretend like it was Whaley) traded up to draft Zay.  That doesn’t worry you?

 

Not really. Even if you say it wasn't Whaley, the guy who actually drafts, Beane was not there yet when Zay was drafted, nor the guys there in scouting and personnel now he hired after he took the job. Plus the only thing we know for sure about Beane and McD's list of QBs is that they preferred Allen to Rosen. They traded up to seven knowing they were going to draft one of four or five guys, not that they were doing it for one, Allen. If he was taken at three, they would have taken Darnold or Rosen and said he was their guy all along and how lucky they were.

 

But Beane did not draft Zay in any way. 

[transplantbillsfan]

 

[C.Biscuit97]

14 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Not really. Even if you say it wasn't Whaley, the guy who actually drafts, Beane was not there yet when Zay was drafted, nor the guys there in scouting and personnel now he hired after he took the job. Plus the only thing we know for sure about Beane and McD's list of QBs is that they preferred Allen to Rosen. They traded up to seven knowing they were going to draft one of four or five guys, not that they were doing it for one, Allen. If he was taken at three, they would have taken Darnold or Rosen and said he was their guy all along and how lucky they were.

 

But Beane did not draft Zay in any way. 

Well, we just drafted two undersized receivers who aren’t nfl caliber imo. 

[JoPar_v2]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Well, we just drafted two undersized receivers who aren’t nfl caliber imo. 

 

True and yet they got an undrafted guy that looks like he can play a little bit.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Gordon was a 2nd round pick in the supplemental draft 

 

Are you saying Josh Gordon, who has been in the league for years and produced at a high level with such QBs as Deshone Kizer, is only good because Brady is elevating him? And your evidence of this is that he was picked in the supplemental draft for reasons that had nothing to do with his talent?

47 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

The same front office that drafted Allen (and please don’t pretend like it was Whaley) traded up to draft Zay.  That doesn’t worry you?

 

I mean, no? The same front office also picked Foster as a UDFA. And personally i think Zay and Foster were both picked for the same reason, because their college coach happened to be here and put in a good recommendation. You're just changing your argument completely. Allen isn't going to elevate Zay because no one can because he is terrible. I don't care where he was drafted and I'm fine that this regime totally whiffed on one pick. How about watching Allen play the past few weeks instead of making convoluted points about what round his teammates were drafted in?

[VW82]

I feel like we have a better idea of the type of receivers we need to pair with Allen. More speed and ability to separate, the better. Also, they need to have decent hands given the velocity on some of these balls though perhaps that goes without saying. I don't think it's as important that we find a long, big bodied receiver to fight for balls. We need guys who get open. Foster and Mckenzie are the C+ versions of that. It's going to take time to put the WR corp together. Draft and FA don't look that promising this year, and I'd be hesitant to reach on a guy. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by VW82

[Kelly the Dog]

16 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Well, we just drafted two undersized receivers who aren’t nfl caliber imo. 

I agree with you. I'm not convinced that Beane and McD know anything at all about offense. Originally it was thought by many, including me, that their choice of QBs in this year's draft was going to all but make or break their Bills careers.

 

But now I'm thinking their overall ability to fill holes in the offense, from OL to WR to TE to RB to coaching, with all this money and draft picks, is what is ultimately going to make or break them.

 

I wouldn't bet either way on them. Let's see what happens. I think they need 4 OL, 2-3 WR, 2 TE, a new OL coach and a new QB coach, and likely a new backup QB.

[Magox]

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

I agree with you. I'm not convinced that Beane and McD know anything at all about offense. Originally it was thought by many, including me, that their choice of QBs in this year's draft was going to all but make or break their Bills careers.

 

But now I'm thinking their overall ability to fill holes in the offense, from OL to WR to TE to RB to coaching, with all this money and draft picks, is what is ultimately going to make or break them.

 

I wouldn't bet either way on them. Let's see what happens. I think they need 4 OL, 2-3 WR, 2 TE, a new OL coach and a new QB coach, and likely a new backup QB.

 

They'll be here for the next decade.