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SI - Josh Allen, Thrown to the Wolves

TheElectricCompany
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4_kidd_4
4_kidd_4

Well if Mark Shepard says so...

Jay_Fixit
Jay_Fixit

Yet another moron saying Tyrod “lead the Bills to the playoffs.”    

Clyde Smith
Clyde Smith

Mark Shepard is probably a TBD message board member. Ok dude, who are you on here lol?

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Big Turk Hall of Famer

Big Turk

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5 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

Fire away!

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/18/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-rookie-starting-quarterback

 

 

It's irrelevant.  People who succeed will do it regardless of the circumstances they are given.  If they have the talent, it won't matter. People who say this type of stuff are much more like Vontae Davis than Kyle Williams.  When the going gets tough they just cry and whine and pack up their things and go home.  PRetty sure Mark Sheppard is not very successful, people who are don't think like that.

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BuffaloBillyG All Pro

BuffaloBillyG

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8 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

Fire away!

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/18/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-rookie-starting-quarterback

 

 

Well, if you draw up a situation for ANY rookie QB to come into this is not a place that screams "mold a young QB"

 

-No vet QB on roster to help in film room

-Culley the QB coach that specializes in WRs

-Daboll no track record of developing a QB

-Horrible oline in front of him

-Not good weapons around him

-Defense minded Head Coach

 

I do think however Allen is going to be a good one. One thing I think works in his favor is he's playing the Chargers, Vikings and other top defenses right away. Getting his feet wet against a tsunami so to speak.

 

2nd half of the year I can really see him slow the game down against the "middle of the pack" defenses and start to shine.

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87168 RFA

87168

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3 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:

Yet another moron saying Tyrod “lead the Bills to the playoffs.”

 

 

sorry that hurts you 

 

anyway, Josh was not put in the best position to succeed, but we'll see how this all plays out.

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BananaB Veteran

BananaB

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I see David Carr is still making excuses why he was a ****ty player. Little brother Derek had no problem being tossed to the wolves. 

5 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:

Yet another moron saying Tyrod “lead the Bills to the playoffs.”

 

 

 

The minute you read or hear this you know they never watched the Bills play last year. 

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Heitz All Pro

Heitz

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11 minutes ago, 416BillsFan said:

Thanks OP, good article. The story was pretty balanced, giving both sides the sitting/starting argument a fair shake.

 

I actually agree with this mostly - while the headline is clickbait, the beginning is harsh and there are some of those come on man moments (Tyrod, a player literally quit at halftime), they do point out some of the positives we might see along the way...

 

Quote

Yet, even with seemingly all factors conspiring against him, the rookie’s confidence did not appear to get shaken. He displayed poise, stayed steady in the pocket on the rare snaps there was one, and clearly improved as the game went on.

 

?

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ALF All Pro

ALF

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The only expectations for this season are for Allen and Edmunds to develop with no pressure to make the playoffs.

 

It looks like both are mature enough to learn from their mistakes. As long as the fans don't boo them and let them learn the hard way. 

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Juice_32 Veteran

Juice_32

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11 minutes ago, mattynh said:

Maybe he is a Wolf slayer

 

Yep. People use the term "thrown to the wolves" as if it is always a bad thing. Everyone has situations in their life where they have been "thrown to the wolves". Sometimes you get eaten alive yes, but sometimes you step up like you did not know you were capable of. Most situations in my life where I have really grown as a human being were just such situations. 

 

This is exactly why you draft a prospect based upon more than just physical talent. This kid grew up on a farm, went to a tiny HS, didn't initially get a D1 offer and when he did he had to strap the team on his back every week to give them a chance. I have a hunch that Allen's got some wolf slayer in him. 

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TheElectricCompany Veteran

TheElectricCompany

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This is not about growing or stepping up. This is about become a top tier franchise QB and if the Bills have created the right environment for that goal. 

He's a top 10 pick. Isn't it assumed that he is resilient, driven and tough as nails? 

I believe Allen is all of those things, but those will not be the primary reason he succeeds or fails.  

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iinii Veteran

iinii

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15 minutes ago, BananaB said:

I see David Carr is still making excuses why he was a ****ty player. Little brother Derek had no problem being tossed to the wolves. 

 

The minute you read or hear this you know they never watched the Bills play last year. 

Derek and David played in two very different situations. The Raiders have generally had a solid offensive line, manned by top draft choices. The expansion Texans had turnstiles up front. 

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Nihilarian Veteran

Nihilarian

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38 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

It's irrelevant.  People who succeed will do it regardless of the circumstances they are given.  If they have the talent, it won't matter. People who say this type of stuff are much more like Vontae Davis than Kyle Williams.  When the going gets tough they just cry and whine and pack up their things and go home.  PRetty sure Mark Sheppard is not very successful, people who are don't think like that.

This is baloney. QB's that go to bad teams usually end up on the scrap heap and the some that do succeed like Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman didn't go to teams as bad as the current Buffalo Bills. Manning was only sacked 22 times his first year at Indy and Aikman was only sacked 19 times at Dallas. Meanwhile Allen has already been sacked 8 times in a game and a half. 

 

While David Carr was sacked 79 times and referred to as a tackling dummy...the Bills QBs are on a pace to beat that number with 88 as Josh with 8, Peterman with 3 in a little over a half. 

 

The article mentions Manning but doesn't say he was only sacked 22 times because he also had some decent talent on his offensive line to protect him. He also had Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison on that team. It was Manning learning the ropes with a 56.7 completion percentage and with 26 TDs, 28 Ints. 

 

As for Aikman his offensive line was arguably the very best the NFL has ever seen with LT Mark Tuinei 15 years with Dallas, LG Nate Newton 13 years with Dallas, Center Tom Raftery 14 years with Dallas, RG Crawford Kerr 6 years with Dallas, RT Kevin Cogan 7 years with Dallas, 14 in the NFL. Aikman learning the NFL ropes  9 TDs, 18 INTs with a 52.9 completion percentage. 

 

**What's interesting to me is the same year the team drafted Aikman #1 overall they also drafted OG Steve Wisniewski with the 29th pick (second round) and center Mark Stepnoski with the #57th pick (3rd round). So, it looks like the Cowboys FO went out of their way to make sure that pick at QB was well protected. 

 

 

Like I said, you throw a rookie QB on a bad team that can't protect him and he usually ends up on the scrap heap. If Allen even survives this season it will be a miracle. 

Edited by Nihilarian
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oldmanfan All Pro

oldmanfan

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4 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

This is baloney. QB's that go to bad teams usually end up on the scrap heap and the some that do succeed like Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman didn't go to teams as bad as the current Buffalo Bills. Manning was only sacked 22 times his first year at Indy and Aikman was only sacked 19 times at Dallas. Meanwhile Allen has already been sacked 8 times in a game and a half. 

 

While David Carr was sacked 79 times and referred to as a tackling dummy...the Bills QBs are on a pace to beat that number with 88 as Josh with 8, Peterman with 3 in a little over a half. 

 

The article mentions Manning but doesn't say he was only sacked 22 times because he also had some decent talent on his offensive line to protect him. He also had Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison on that team. It was Manning learning the ropes with a 56.7 completion percentage and with 26 TDs, 28 Ints. 

 

As for Aikman his offensive line was arguably the very best the NFL has ever seen with LT Mark Tuinei 15 years with Dallas, LG Nate Newton 13 years with Dallas, Center Tom Raftery 14 years with Dallas, RG Crawford Kerr 6 years with Dallas, RT Kevin Cogan 7 years with Dallas, 14 in the NFL. Aikman learning the NFL ropes  9 TDs, 18 INTs with a 52.9 completion percentage. 

 

Like I said, you throw a rookie QB on a bad team that can't protect him and he usually ends up on the scrap heap. If Allen even survives this season it will be a miracle. 

You say this scenario usually means a guy ends up on the scrap heap, and name one guy.  Brilliant.

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Nihilarian Veteran

Nihilarian

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8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You say this scenario usually means a guy ends up on the scrap heap, and name one guy.  Brilliant.

Did I really need to mention more than the one the article mentions? 

 

You don't watch football enough to know how many QBs the Cleveland Browns have drafted in the first round in their history to see that *nearly all of them have ended up on the scrap heap? Really? The entire league is littered with failed QBs that went to bad teams...oldmanfan...

 

 

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Chuck Wagon Veteran

Chuck Wagon

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20 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You say this scenario usually means a guy ends up on the scrap heap, and name one guy.  Brilliant.

 

Tim Couch, for one.

 

It's a pretty tough argument to support either way.  Guys who were never given a chance could just as easily be labeled as "not talented enough".

 

 

But Goff is a pretty good recent example.  His rookie year he was labeled a bust and pretty much written off.  Gurley was also labeled a one year wonder.  The Rams hired an innovative coach, completely overhauled their WR core and brought in a vet LT and Center, suddenly they are the best offense in football.  

 

Simply put, very few if any current "franchise QBs" around the league were put into a worse situation than Allen currently faces.  However, many "never was / draft busts" faced similar circumstances.  To pretend a guy should be so talented you can just roll the ball out there with anyone from day 1 and he'll make it work is one of the dumber things I've seen said on this forum.

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Pre1236 UDFA

Pre1236

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Allen is in a terrible situation - to say otherwise is disingenuous. Doesn't mean he won't be successful but, if you are honest, can you imagine a worse situation for a prospect? Especially a prospect who is largely considered "raw".  How this organization thought it made sense to enter the season with Allen and Peterman as the only two QBs is downright alarming. 

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dave mcbride Hall of Famer

dave mcbride

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11 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You say this scenario usually means a guy ends up on the scrap heap, and name one guy.  Brilliant.

Tim Couch too, and there is a connecting thread between him and Carr: both were day one starters for truly terrible (worse than even the current Bills) expansion teams. It's also worth remembering that after Carolina and Jax's surprisingly early success after coming into the league, owners essentially vowed to never let that happen again. 

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Nihilarian Veteran

Nihilarian

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10 minutes ago, elcrusho said:

Kelly went 4-12 and was sacked 43 times his 1st season.....and also threw 17 interceptions

Look back at that team. Kelly had LT Ken Jones, LG Jim Richter, C Kent Hull, RG Will Wolford, RT Joe Devlin. Pretty gosh darn good line in my view. 

 

Pete Metz, Andre Reed to throw to and Rob Riddick Ronnie Harmon at RB. 

 

4-12 huh, Hank Bullough was the HC for 9 games that year. 

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BillsVet All Pro

BillsVet

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Marv Levy said something long ago to the effect of if you listen to the fans, you'll wind up sitting next to them in the stands.  The writer of that article didn't consider that apparently.

 

37 minutes ago, Juice_32 said:

 

Yep. People use the term "thrown to the wolves" as if it is always a bad thing. Everyone has situations in their life where they have been "thrown to the wolves". Sometimes you get eaten alive yes, but sometimes you step up like you did not know you were capable of. Most situations in my life where I have really grown as a human being were just such situations.

 

This.  I was set up to fail multiple times in the military and learned better through adversity than having an easy or only slightly challenging situation.  I think Allen's been dealing with plenty of adversity, professionally speaking, since he was a kid. Getting to a D-1 school, succeeding there without a top supporting cast, and then being drafted demonstrates this. He's got a bigger challenge now, and while it's not under ideal circumstances, it's not a fait accompli that he'll fail because his predecessors did.

 

Besides, the idea that he'll fail because Manuel, Edwards, and Losman did is just Bills fans conditioned to pessimism. It's a defensive mechanism if things go wrong and we want to say we're right. I've got more faith in that kid that anyone Buffalo's drafted at QB in a long time.

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dave mcbride Hall of Famer

dave mcbride

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3 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Look back at that team. Kelly had LT Ken Jones, LG Jim Richter, C Kent Hull, RG Will Wolford, RT Joe Devlin. Pretty gosh darn good line in my view. 

 

Pete Metz, Andre Reed to throw to and Rob Riddick Ronnie Harmon at RB. 

 

4-12 huh, Hank Bullough was the HC for 9 games that year. 

Kelly actually had a good year - a 112 QB+ rating (100 being average). He wasn't the reason they went 4-12. The D forced the fewest turnovers in the league that year and was in the bottom regions for points and yards allowed.  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm

 

 

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iinii Veteran

iinii

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14 minutes ago, Pre1236 said:

Allen is in a terrible situation - to say otherwise is disingenuous. Doesn't mean he won't be successful but, if you are honest, can you imagine a worse situation for a prospect? Especially a prospect who is largely considered "raw".  How this organization thought it made sense to enter the season with Allen and Peterman as the only two QBs is downright alarming. 

Why is this so difficult for some people to realize?

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BmarvB Veteran

BmarvB

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54 minutes ago, No Place To Hyde said:

Well, if you draw up a situation for ANY rookie QB to come into this is not a place that screams "mold a young QB"

 

-No vet QB on roster to help in film room

-Culley the QB coach that specializes in WRs

-Daboll no track record of developing a QB

-Horrible oline in front of him

-Not good weapons around him

-Defense minded Head Coach

 

I do think however Allen is going to be a good one. One thing I think works in his favor is he's playing the Chargers, Vikings and other top defenses right away. Getting his feet wet against a tsunami so to speak.

 

2nd half of the year I can really see him slow the game down against the "middle of the pack" defenses and start to shine.

 

Completely agree. They've done an irresponsible, incompetent job of giving him what he needs to succeed this season. I do think he's going to get better despite not having much to work with.

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