Darnold and Allen , offsets and no offsets

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...it just woefully stinks as to how this game or the love for it has taken a back seat years ago....sure I understand that ALL Owners are BILLIONAIRES and the players want and deserve their fair share.....but go back to the day of your avitar BILLY SHAW, who took time off from his cement mixing job to come and play ball for the Bills at a whopping 18 grand a year......post game locker room was a beer and a cigarette.....and then the guy returned to his REAL job, eventually retiring at age 66 (FULL Social Security) because his NFL pension was loose change in the damn ash tray......seriously?.........

There are plenty of guys who love the game.   Does Kyle Williams care about the money?   Tyrod Taylor?  Plenty of them.   They understand they're piling up more dough than any human being should ever expect, so what difference does a guarantee make, or an extra year, or whatever?   They want to play football.  

 

The fact that Darnold is hung up on this says that there's a part of him that is about the money, when in fact the money, at his level, is irrelevant.   McBeane don't like guys who can't see that.  

[MAJBobby]

No Leverage. Instead making him look rather idiotic and an agent puppet. 

 

NFL Network (@nflnetwork)

7/27/18, 7:40 PM

Ready to join his teammates at #NFLTrainingCamp?

Sam Darnold wants a deal done.

(via ⁦‪@MikeGarafolo‬⁩) pic.twitter.com/5SbmFJoLjm

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

He’s making a stink over THIS? He has a better chance of winning the lottery than being cut, or at least he should think so. 

 

...would YOU sacrifice offset language based on this storied list of USC QB's and their prolific NFL careers?

 

Sam Darnold

Max Brown

Cody Kessler

Matt Barkley

Mark Sanchez

John David's Booty

Matt "Hot Tub" Leinart

Brad Otton (huh?)

Rob Johnson (been there...done THAT)

Todd Marinovich (a/k/a Puff Daddy)

Sean Salisbury (steak medium rare please)

 

...I left out Carson Palmer and reluctantly Rodney Peete....but that's a pedigree list Waste Management would deny for curb side pickup...

 

 

[Big Turk]

31 minutes ago, Paulus said:

The sword cuts both ways. By your own logic, and Bosa'so performance in SD, that envelope has been pushed...

It has and the Jets are not trying to have it pushed any further

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, lookylookyherecomescookie said:

Just a question to those who know more about this than me.  Darnold is holding out because he  reportedly wants no offset language in his contract. Allen signed already, he accepted offset language in his contract. Obviously teams want offset provision, players (or agents) don't. Both Allen and Darnold have the same agent, Jimmy Sexton.  Is this a case of  the agent treating the two teams differently, or just Darnold being really stubborn?

 

 

Theres usually a split in the top 5-10 where it goes from expectation to rarity. Darnold and allen, without digging in past contracts, are likely in opposite sides of that line.

42 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

If the Jets roll back their long standing offset policy now. You DONT think every player is going to demand no offsets. Never have been in to many negotiations have you. 

Future top 5 jet picks perhaps. Every player? Your in one of your spirals where you start with crazy talk instead of conceding nuance.

23 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...would YOU sacrifice offset language based on this storied list of USC QB's and their prolific NFL careers?

 

Sam Darnold

Max Brown

Cody Kessler

Matt Barkley

Mark Sanchez

John David's Booty

Matt "Hot Tub" Leinart

Brad Otton (huh?)

Rob Johnson (been there...done THAT)

Todd Marinovich (a/k/a Puff Daddy)

Sean Salisbury (steak medium rare please)

 

...I left out Carson Palmer and reluctantly Rodney Peete....but that's a pedigree list Waste Management would deny for curb side pickup...

 

 

 

For the third pick? Yea, probably. He’s pretty much guaranteed three years and if he crashes and burns so badly he’s cut before year 4 he isn’t getting much money elsewhere to offset that salary for the season.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

7 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

 

Theres usually a split in the top 5-10 where it goes from expectation to rarity. Darnold and allen, without digging in past contracts, are likely in opposite sides of that line.

Future top 5 jet picks perhaps. Every player? Your in one of your spirals where you start with crazy talk instead of conceding nuance.

 

For the third pick? Yea, probably. He’s pretty much guaranteed three years and if he crashes and burns so badly he’s cut before year 4 he isn’t getting much money elsewhere to offset that salary for the season.

...pretty sure his entire salary is guaranteed (fop at least top10)...so removing offset language is gravy over and above guarantee if he signs a deal elsewhere after being cut (I think)......

[Augie]

38 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...would YOU sacrifice offset language based on this storied list of USC QB's and their prolific NFL careers?

 

Sam Darnold

Max Brown

Cody Kessler

Matt Barkley

Mark Sanchez

John David's Booty

Matt "Hot Tub" Leinart

Brad Otton (huh?)

Rob Johnson (been there...done THAT)

Todd Marinovich (a/k/a Puff Daddy)

Sean Salisbury (steak medium rare please)

 

...I left out Carson Palmer and reluctantly Rodney Peete....but that's a pedigree list Waste Management would deny for curb side pickup...

 

 

 

This kind of thing is where I dig my heals in. If I’m the Jets I do NOT set this precedent. Let us know when you’re ready to report. 

[whatdrought]

I love how we’re arguing about this instead of just being happy that it’s happening to the Jests.

[NoSaint]

33 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...pretty sure his entire salary is guaranteed (fop at least top10)...so removing offset language is gravy over and above guarantee if he signs a deal elsewhere after being cut (I think)......

 

Offset language allows the Jets not to pay him a portion equivalent to what someone else would pay that year.

 

bar napkin ridiculous example: if his year 4 salary was 10m and he’s cut and given a 1m deal elsewhere jets only owe him 9m if there’s an offset clause. So he’d only make the 10, not 11 as he would if he got this language pulled.

 

 

much like the amount guaranteed scales, offset language is more normal high, and less likely as you fall down the board

Edited July 28, 2018 by NoSaint

[Paulus]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

It has and the Jets are not trying to have it pushed any further

Darnold is continuing the practice of ending a teams ridiculous control over player contracts, IMO. Just look at what the last CBA did for the players. It is not wrong to demand to be treated fairly. 

[Cripple Creek]

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

 

 It hurts ability to Double Dip 

I'm not sure how excited I would be about signing a player who seemed concerned that he'd be cut before the end of his rookie deal.  Not traded, cut.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, whatdrought said:

I love how we’re arguing about this instead of just being happy that it’s happening to the Jests.

I AM enjoying that it's happening to the Jets.  Maybe they got a self-centered, spoiled (pray tell, not from USC!) kid who's play will forever be limited because he doesn't want to get his hair mussed.  

[Foxx]

45 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Darnold is continuing the practice of ending a teams ridiculous control over player contracts, IMO. Just look at what the last CBA did for the players. It is not wrong to demand to be treated fairly. 

treated fairly?  millions for playing a kids game.

 

double dipping is fair? what other world do you get to double dip on your salary.

 

did i suddenly transport to htraE and am now living a bizaro existence?

Edited July 28, 2018 by Foxx

[aristocrat]

Hes Missing such important time over such a trivial contract clause. 

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

I think holding out for offsets when you are the 3rd overall pick is a little ridiculous...the chances of them cutting you before the end of your rookie contract as a QB especially are almost none.

It also doesn't say much for your ability to perform. It's like Sam already has doubts and he's trying to get some insurance in case he busts and is released.  Not a resounding testament to ones confidence. 

[26CornerBlitz]

Darnold's absence has nothing to do with offset language according to Rapoport.

 

[Big Turk]

52 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Darnold is continuing the practice of ending a teams ridiculous control over player contracts, IMO. Just look at what the last CBA did for the players. It is not wrong to demand to be treated fairly. 

I'm not taking either side I'm just saying the teams want to hold on to as much power as they can. Out of all the sports, the NFL has always tried to hold as much power over the players as possible and is very reluctant to give them anything other than scraps at the bargaining table

[Fadingpain]

3 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Think it more has to to with past USC QB sucess (or lack there of). Also add into what Jets gave up to get him (think they have leverage). And add the inability of the hets to develop a QB. 

 

Either way Darnold only hurting himself over language thay is never going to actually be used. No team is gonna cut a QB taken in the top 5 before year 4. 

 

Jet fans blamin Sexton. However the Agent works for the player. Not the other way around. 

I don't think it has anything to do with that.

[Paulus]

2 hours ago, matter2003 said:

It has and the Jets are not trying to have it pushed any further

And, just how far has Darnold'so envelope been pushed? Or, does he not get an envelope?

1 hour ago, Cripple Creek said:

I'm not sure how excited I would be about signing a player who seemed concerned that he'd be cut before the end of his rookie deal.  Not traded, cut.

Or, about a team that gave up so much to draft said player...

21 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

I'm not taking either side I'm just saying the teams want to hold on to as much power as they can. Out of all the sports, the NFL has always tried to hold as much power over the players as possible and is very reluctant to give them anything other than scraps at the bargaining table

Yeah, I agree. I do think Darnold has leverage based on not just Bosa and Darnold being a QB drafted at #3, but how much draft capital the Jets paid to get him.

35 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

Hes Missing such important time over such a trivial contract clause. 

Yeah, the Jets really don't care about winning or their new "franchise qb," do they?

[Capco]

37 minutes ago, Foxx said:

double dipping is fair? what other world do you get to double dip on your salary.

 

Can someone explain to me why playing for 4-5 years under a rookie contract, getting paid according to your contract, and then hitting free agency to sign a new contract with a different team is considered "double dipping"?  

 

If I'm reading these responses right, it sounds like "offset language" is just a way for a team to take money back that they agreed to give a player for playing JUST because they won't re-sign with the team.  Is that correct?

[Paulus]

1 minute ago, Capco said:

 

Can someone explain to me why playing for 4-5 years under a rookie contract, getting paid according to your contract, and then hitting free agency to sign a new contract with a different team is considered "double dipping"?  

 

If I'm reading these responses right, it sounds like "offset language" is just a way for a team to take money back that they agreed to give a player for playing JUST because they won't re-sign with the team.  Is that correct?

Yeah, it seems like people here only think Darnold has something to lose, hahaha. 

[White Linen]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Culture.

 

The Jets are saying "this is the way we do things."  Darnold is saying "I don't want to do it your way.  I want to do it my way."

 

That's what I was saying about McBeane.   They're immediately turned off when the player's behavior says "I don't want to do it your way."   Just like Belichick is turned off.   McBeane's view, and Belichick's, and apparently the Jets', is that the players must do it their way on things that are of fundamental importance.   

 

The difference between the cultures is, I'm guessing, that the Bills knew what they were getting with Allen and the Jets, apparently, didn't know what they were getting with Darnold.  McBeane don't want a guy who puts himself ahead of the team.  

 

I find this post going a bit too far.  

 

Why doesn't the team put the team first and take any language the player doesn't like out of the contract?  Everyone agrees it's very likely not to come into play - so why doesn't the team take the very small risk and get the player into camp to help the team and his development?  

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, White Linen said:

 

I find this post going a bit too far.  

 

Why doesn't the team put the team first and take any language the player doesn't like out of the contract?  Everyone agrees it's very likely not to come into play - so why doesn't the team take the very small risk and get the player into camp to help the team and his development?  

Because an organization is run from the top down.  Otherwise it's the inmates running the asylum.   

 

The leadership sets the standards, and the employees follow the standards.   McBeane want guys who understand that. 

39 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

Darnold's absence has nothing to do with offset language according to Rapoport.

 

Okay.  It's about bonus language.   If the bonus language the Jets are offering is more or less standard for the league, then I have the same problem with Darnold not signing.   If the Jets are trying to get him to take language that other guys didn't have to take, then it's on the Jets.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

[YoloinOhio]

It’s a game within a game. If Sexton gets a deal with no offset language, he’ll use it as a recruiting tool in 2019 and beyond. It’s a feather in his cap that he can use to tell recruits (and their parents) that he can deliver, while (INSERT COMPETING AGENT HERE) cannot. Agents work in a cut-throat world.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

1 hour ago, Foxx said:

double dipping is fair? what other world do you get to double dip on your salary.

Politics.

[Foxx]

56 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

Can someone explain to me why playing for 4-5 years under a rookie contract, getting paid according to your contract, and then hitting free agency to sign a new contract with a different team is considered "double dipping"?  

 

If I'm reading these responses right, it sounds like "offset language" is just a way for a team to take money back that they agreed to give a player for playing JUST because they won't re-sign with the team.  Is that correct?

double dipping would be something like thus....

you sign a 4 year contract for 10mm, guaranteed.  the team releases you after year 3 of said contract of which you are owed 2mm.  whereby you go out and get signed by another team for that coming year for 1mm. without the offset language, the team who signed you to the original contract still is obligated to pay you that 2mm. so you collect that 2mm plus the 1mm from the team that just signed you. with the offset language, because you are supplementing your income via another team , they are now only obligated to pay you 1mm.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Politics.

touché

[Just Joshin']

2 hours ago, Paulus said:

Darnold is continuing the practice of ending a teams ridiculous control over player contracts, IMO. Just look at what the last CBA did for the players. It is not wrong to demand to be treated fairly. 

Wow - why would the team non control the contract?  The players work for the team.  When the players work for themselves, so be it.

 

It is his right to hold out and the Jets right to not agree.   The root cause is the CBA - clean it up there but neither side would want to make a concession.

[Behindenemylines]

We got the right guy for sure.  Everything he is doing shows character.  That with his physical tools will develop into as superstar. More coaching the position and he's ready game 8!  

 

Regardless of your take on things this is an exciting time to be a Bills fan!

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, Behindenemylines said:

We got the right guy for sure.  Everything he is doing shows character.  That with his physical tools will develop into as superstar. More coaching the position and he's ready game 8!  

 

Regardless of your take on things this is an exciting time to be a Bills fan!

 

Long way to go before we can determine any of this. 

[Capco]

41 minutes ago, Foxx said:

double dipping would be something like thus....

you sign a 4 year contract for 10mm, guaranteed.  the team releases you after year 3 of said contract of which you are owed 2mm.  whereby you go out and get signed by another team for that coming year for 1mm. without the offset language, the team who signed you to the original contract still is obligated to pay you that 2mm. so you collect that 2mm plus the 1mm from the team that just signed you. with the offset language, because you are supplementing your income via another team , they are now only obligated to pay you 1mm.

 

I see now.  Thank you for the clarification.  

[Paulus]

42 minutes ago, Dalton said:

Wow - why would the team non control the contract?  The players work for the team.  When the players work for themselves, so be it.

 

It is his right to hold out and the Jets right to not agree.   The root cause is the CBA - clean it up there but neither side would want to make a concession.

Why would a team not control the contract? Why would an employee agree to something they don't want? Honestly, there are tons of reasons for both. Those reasons are evidenced by the fact that there are actually contract negotiations. 

1 hour ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Politics.

Contracts have liquid damages clauses in them all the time...

 

 

Honestly, I am reserving judgment until the full story is revealed. I just get annoyed at all the fans who automatically take the team's side, especially when NFL players have arguably the worst CBA of the 4 major sports and is being the most violent of the 4 sports.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Paulus

[TigerJ]

It's been explained well enough here and elsewhere, there's no point repeating it.  It's another sign we go the right QB.

[purple haze]

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

Sexton is well established across the football world.  Between the players and coaches he repped in the past and reps now, at this point,  I don't think he needs prove himself in the same way other agents do.  He's a heavy hitter in the agent world.

[yungmack]

According to the LA Times Mayfield and Allen got their offset language. Have no idea why the Jets are refusing to do the same for Darnold.

[YoloinOhio]

5 minutes ago, yungmack said:

According to the LA Times Mayfield and Allen got their offset language. Have no idea why the Jets are refusing to do the same for Darnold.

Darnold is actually refusing offset language. Jets want it in there. Allen and Mayfield have it, they wanted to get their deals done in time for camp so didn’t fight for leaving it out.

17 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Sexton is well established across the football world.  Between the players and coaches he repped in the past and reps now, at this point,  I don't think he needs prove himself in the same way other agents do.  He's a heavy hitter in the agent world.

He is the one who orchestrated Marrone’s 4mill prize for quitting, and Rex’s 5 for 50 of which he only worked 2.

Edited July 28, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[White Linen]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Because an organization is run from the top down.  Otherwise it's the inmates running the asylum.   

 

The leadership sets the standards, and the employees follow the standards.   McBeane want guys who understand that. 

Okay.  It's about bonus language.   If the bonus language the Jets are offering is more or less standard for the league, then I have the same problem with Darnold not signing.   If the Jets are trying to get him to take language that other guys didn't have to take, then it's on the Jets.

 

Don't compare a work environment to prison - that's a completely different situation.  

 

What you're saying is about as anti-american as it gets.  

[LeGOATski]

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Darnold is actually refusing offset language. Jets want it in there. Allen and Mayfield have it, they wanted to get their deals done in time for camp so didn’t fight for leaving it out.

In the vid that 26 posted, Rappaport made it sound like the offset language isn't the problem. There's other language in there regarding the voiding of his guaranteed money.

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, LeGOATski said:

In the vid that 26 posted, Rappaport made it sound like the offset language isn't the problem. There's other language in there regarding the voiding of his guaranteed money.

Ah .... interesting 

[Augie]

6 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

In the vid that 26 posted, Rappaport made it sound like the offset language isn't the problem. There's other language in there regarding the voiding of his guaranteed money.

 

Interesting indeed. How about this......don’t do anything abhorrent that would void the guaranteed money. No free passes if you plan to become an embarrassment or a criminal. Doesn’t that sound easy? The rest of the players in the league can live with the standard language and expectations. I hope he’s the turd who will sit out all year to stand his ground. It makes me feel better about not getting my first choice!     ?