SouthNYfan Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 54 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: You're going to derail discussion into a polemic about epistemology and apologetics with a quote like that . . . faith is not equivalent to fideism, btw, which seems to be the assumption with those who think faith and reason are like oil and water. This thread is about "faith" in regards to God/Christianity. I'm not derailing anything. Faith in religion/God and reason/logic are absolutely like oil and water. Believing in something without proof, and when objective reasoning says opposite is what "faith" is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, Domdab99 said: Those are all things that have some expectation of being or becoming true. I’m obviously talking about religious faith. I have faith in my wife because I know her and have experienced her love and care for me personally. i have faith that the sun will rise in the morning, because there is no evidence that says it won’t. At least, not tomorrow. These are evidence-based examples of faith. not the evidence-less faith that religion is based on. This is not a forum for discussing religion or what constitutes reasonable warrant. If one were to address these issues, one might wish to first of all attempt to discover the best arguments in order to foster genuine dialectic. One might infer certain metaphysical assertions embedded within various perspectives, overtly religious or not. Metaphysics broaches matters of necessity and contingency, for example. Aquinas argued that a rough gesture towards the rationality of belief might begin with a sense that an endless series of contingent causes would never arrive at a necessary source of being. The question why there is something and not nothing remains philosophically legitimate. It is a root question where the answer of religion is at least as reasonable as the ontological faith of the rationalist materialist. 4 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: This thread is about "faith" in regards to God/Christianity. I'm not derailing anything. Faith in religion/God and reason/logic are absolutely like oil and water. Believing in something without proof, and when objective reasoning says opposite is what "faith" is. How does that have anything to do with the Buffalo Bills? I don't find these issues insignificant or uninteresting, but I surmise most folks on this board would find it off-topic. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 "Faith" does not always mean faith is religious terms. It is funny that a country founded by many whose many ancestors left Europe due to religious persecution repeat same thing in new country. Hopefully chaplin they brought in administer help to all faiths like military chaplains do or even just provide guidance when asked by non-believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 This is a thread that should be in PPP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 14 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: This is not a forum for discussing religion or what constitutes reasonable warrant. If one were to address these issues, one might wish to first of all attempt to discover the best arguments in order to foster genuine dialectic. One might infer certain metaphysical assertions embedded within various perspectives, overtly religious or not. Metaphysics broaches matters of necessity and contingency, for example. Aquinas argued that a rough gesture towards the rationality of belief might begin with a sense that an endless series of contingent causes would never arrive at a necessary source of being. The question why there is something and not nothing remains philosophically legitimate. It is a root question where the answer of religion is at least as reasonable as the ontological faith of the rationalist materialist. How does that have anything to do with the Buffalo Bills? I don't find these issues insignificant or uninteresting, but I surmise most folks on this board would find it off-topic. The thread is literally about whether or not there is a place on McDermott's roster for those who do not have "faith" in regards to Christianity. I'm sorry if bringing up how I feel about "faith" with regards to religion is devoid of reason, and how I feel that it shouldn't have a place in the locker room. Funny how it seems the same people who are completely against Kaepernick, Rosen, etc brining their political views into the locker room are okay with Christianity/faith being brought into the locker room, and against anybody who feels otherwise. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: The thread is literally about whether or not there is a place on McDermott's roster for those who do not have "faith" in regards to Christianity. I'm sorry if bringing up how I feel about "faith" with regards to religion is devoid of reason, and how I feel that it shouldn't have a place in the locker room. Funny how it seems the same people who are completely against Kaepernick, Rosen, etc brining their political views into the locker room are okay with Christianity/faith being brought into the locker room, and against anybody who feels otherwise. It seems that you have an axe to grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsoldier54 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 3 hours ago, eball said: If there is one non-football thing I've noticed about McD it is the emphasis he places on faith when discussing the makeup of the team. I believe he uses the phrase "family, faith, football" frequently which begs the question -- is there a place for a player on this roster who isn't a devout Christian or (perish the thought) is agnostic or an atheist? An aspect unique to sports is the open practice of religion before, during, and after games. Obviously McD can't come out and openly discriminate on the basis of religion but that's not what I'm asking. I don't think this is a silly question and I'm not making fun of anyone -- I'm curious to hear others' thoughts and I wonder if a media member would ever ask him that question (i.e., can a player who doesn't claim religious faith as a cornerstone of his life fit into "the process" with the Buffalo Bills)? I think maybe you're overthinking it a little. Maybe he's talking about faith in the process, or faith in the coaches. Faith is not limited to religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Fadingpain said: No, McDermott has made it clear many times in how he speaks that he is devoutly religious. His use of "faith" is the religious meaning, not other more abstract meanings. I understand McD is a devout Christian, and he has that freedom in this country. But to think he imposes those views on his staff or players is plain silly. I believe his motto applies to football culture, and that is it. But feel free to interpret it how you wish. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 Doug Marrone beatified himself. By all means, let's complain about McDermott's religious beliefs. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 1 minute ago, SouthNYfan said: The thread is literally about whether or not there is a place on McDermott's roster for those who do not have "faith" in regards to Christianity. I'm sorry if bringing up how I feel about "faith" with regards to religion is devoid of reason, and how I feel that it shouldn't have a place in the locker room. Funny how it seems the same people who are completely against Kaepernick, Rosen, etc brining their political views into the locker room are okay with Christianity/faith being brought into the locker room, and against anybody who feels otherwise. What I argued was that there was no credible evidence that McDermott was using a religious criteria for building his roster and that short of something more concrete than the presence of Christians on the roster and the alliterative phrase "faith, family, football," it was unethical and rather irrational to use such a phrase to insinuate sinister implications. Further, I specifically stated that cowing religious dissent would be a bad thing. Nonetheless, I think one ought to distinguish that kind of discussion from general questions of religious verity or investigations into what constitutes rationality or an acceptable epistemological criteria. To sweep all that into a discussion of McDermott's locker room is clearly outside the bounds of what this particular forum addresses. I do not believe I have accused you of irrationality, nor have I said anything about Kaepernick. Before the draft, I explicitly stated my concerns with Rosen's durability and I do feel his personality may be an issue. I never argued he should not be chosen because of differences in ideology. Indeed, I abjured such a criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieroscoe Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 It may not be “required” but based on who is on this team it is favored and part of the process, you can’t deny it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 God has nothing to do with football. If he did every game would end in a tie. No losers. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: God has nothing to do with football. If he did every game would end in a tie. No losers. Yeah, just like the Jews and the Babylonians... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 15 minutes ago, ronnieroscoe said: It may not be “required” but based on who is on this team it is favored and part of the process, you can’t deny it Prove your assertion with evidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterbluesky Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 3 hours ago, eball said: If there is one non-football thing I've noticed about McD it is the emphasis he places on faith when discussing the makeup of the team. I believe he uses the phrase "family, faith, football" frequently which begs the question -- is there a place for a player on this roster who isn't a devout Christian or (perish the thought) is agnostic or an atheist? An aspect unique to sports is the open practice of religion before, during, and after games. Obviously McD can't come out and openly discriminate on the basis of religion but that's not what I'm asking. I don't think this is a silly question and I'm not making fun of anyone -- I'm curious to hear others' thoughts and I wonder if a media member would ever ask him that question (i.e., can a player who doesn't claim religious faith as a cornerstone of his life fit into "the process" with the Buffalo Bills)? I think he has deep respect for the definition of the word respect.It's not a religious "thing"...more on the avenue of treating the people that surround you the way you want them to treat you. He's not a "me" guy,that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 41 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said: This is a thread that should be in PPP Sadly, it’s getting close, but it doesn’t have to be. Exercise judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 21 minutes ago, ronnieroscoe said: It may not be “required” but based on who is on this team it is favored and part of the process, you can’t deny it The quote from Matthews suggests otherwise. https://www.google.com/amp/amp.si.com/nfl/2017/12/01/buffalo-bills-sean-mcdermott-team-building-through-storytelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig1Hunter Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 1 hour ago, SouthNYfan said: "Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence what so ever." -Sam Harris Not sure why you decided to use this thread to dump on Christianity, but Mr. Harris (and you, by proxy) obviously has no idea what Christianity is about. Might as well stand on the rooftops and shout your ignorance. Would have a similar effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pennstate10 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 Fact. Satan played forward for the Sabres in the 1990s. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, pennstate10 said: Fact. Satan played forward for the Sabres in the 1990s. He was also the defensive coordinator for Penn State for a number of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 4 hours ago, 4_kidd_4 said: Don’t care if these guys hail Satan in their spare time, just win football games. You have the attitude we need down here. PM me for contract details.®️ 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 33 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said: Not sure why you decided to use this thread to dump on Christianity, but Mr. Harris (and you, by proxy) obviously has no idea what Christianity is about. Might as well stand on the rooftops and shout your ignorance. Would have a similar effect. I wasn't here to "dump on Christianity". I was merely pointing out the absurdity of "faith" as a whole, which is the belief in something without actual proof. It was pointing out the silliness that if you tell a devout Christian that you can shoot laser beams from your eyes, he will want proof, but yet he believes extraordinary things written in a book by an invisible being with no tangible proof whatsoever. I am willing to bet I have done more research on Christianity, as well as many other religions, than yourself. Go read some books by Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. They're pretty enlightening. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 4 hours ago, ddaryl said: If this type of religous discrimination is being practiced then it will come out and the price paid wil be heavy. You cannot hire people based upon their personal faith... unless that institution is religion based. The NFL is clearly not religion based, therefore it would be career suicide for McDermott/Beane in the NFL and even team suicide to do so. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/practices/inquiries_religious.cfm Except contract players like this don't apply to that. But, hey, cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 1 minute ago, SouthNYfan said: I wasn't here to "dump on Christianity". I was merely pointing out the absurdity of "faith" as a whole, which is the belief in something without actual proof. It was pointing out the silliness that if you tell a devout Christian that you can shoot laser beams from your eyes, he will want proof, but yet he believes extraordinary things written in a book by an invisible being with no tangible proof whatsoever. I am willing to bet I have done more research on Christianity, as well as many other religions, than yourself. Go read some books by Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. They're pretty enlightening. Rough day ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, Commonsense said: Rough day ? meh. not at all really. : ) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Costa Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, eball said: Rumor has it that when Rosen was discussed as a potential pick McD burst into the room shouting, "that's meshuggeneh!" ????????? Edited May 15, 2018 by Paul Costa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said: I think it’s a fair question and interesting topic for discussion. Several of us have questioned the same concept in a different manner, wondering whether it’s possible a team of all Eagle Scouts can win it all, or whether McDermott and Beane are passing over star players who have had some questionable pasts. I do not think it is about the past. i feel it is a recognizing Good character and Strong will from the FO. Focus and discipline. Heart and desire to succeed. Humble. Traits that may qualify as Good religion? Sure ,But certainly can stand on their own as quantifiable prerequisites for team building. Horses run faster and stronger when pulling the Cart in the same direction Edited May 15, 2018 by 3rdand12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Costa Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 14 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: I wasn't here to "dump on Christianity". I was merely pointing out the absurdity of "faith" as a whole, which is the belief in something without actual proof. It was pointing out the silliness that if you tell a devout Christian that you can shoot laser beams from your eyes, he will want proof, but yet he believes extraordinary things written in a book by an invisible being with no tangible proof whatsoever. I am willing to bet I have done more research on Christianity, as well as many other religions, than yourself. Go read some books by Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. They're pretty enlightening. I’m going to say a prayer ?? for you tonight. ?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardyBoy Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 2 hours ago, BillsFan4 said: Not to get all deep on a football message board, but... Faith, in general, is absolutely a virtue worth having in my opinion. I see faith as an expression of hope for something better. People act in faith all the time, when there is no guarantee or certainty. Like for example - Having a child. You don't know how that child's life will turn out, but you have that child anyway because you believe things will be ok. or getting married. You have no idea if it will work out. You don't know if your marriage will last a lifetime, but you take a leap of faith. So much of what we hold precious relies on faith in other people. How miserable would life be, if when things were going bad you had no faith that it would get better? How many pro athletes would there even be if they didn't have faith in themselves that they could reach their goal? How many times in their life do you think they were told "give up and get a real job!"? I'm sure the same could be said about a lot of people who reached their ultimate goals in life, or realized their dreams. Anyway... lol. All those things listed, you could argue and I will, are pushed on people through societal pressure. 'so, when are you going to propose?' 'are you thinking of having children?' 'are you going to have more than one child?' etc etc etc. Also, a lot of those pressures have been codified through organized religions across time and culture since before people drew pictures on the walls of a cave. Societal pressures can be good, don't get me wrong, but they lead to mob think. To me, faith isn't about rote recitation and following in the steps of others. It is challenging others, and having the belief that your previous understanding of the world will hold you up at the moment you think you've fallen...think Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Basically, forced faith = bad news because it strips an individual of flexibility of thought when inevitably something goes off script. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Billsflyer12 said: http://buffalonews.com/2017/11/24/inside-the-bills-team-chaplain-len-vanden-bos-blends-faith-and-football/ McDermott hired a full time team Chaplin just after he arrived. I think is may have been the 1st time in organization history, if I remember correctly. they have always had an Icon on board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollars 2 donuts Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 4 hours ago, Domdab99 said: faith - a belief in a something you can't prove. Yeah, there's a virtue worth having. That's why they call it faith. Yep, the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen. Regardless of any religion, it is the reason why a team that doesn't warship at the almighty passing game (to the utter consternation and criticism of NFL insiders and talking heads alike) and yet confoundingly gets into the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 I bet there are few if any "devout Christians" on the team (who would play on Sunday?). Although they all seem to thank Jesus after a big game... I mean, like Jesus is really laying his money on the Bills.... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 1 hour ago, DC Tom said: Doug Marrone beatified himself. By all means, let's complain about McDermott's religious beliefs. The Saintness of Marrone was magnificent. Burned my eye, it did . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I bet there are few if any "devout Christians" on the team (who would play on Sunday?). Although they all seem to thank Jesus after a big game... I mean, like Jesus is really laying his money on the Bills.... Do they have betting in Mexico? Jesus is real big there. I'm sure he's bet on the Bills a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domdab99 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 To be fair, Stevie did blame God when he dropped that TD against the Steelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsflyer12 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I bet there are few if any "devout Christians" on the team (who would play on Sunday?). Although they all seem to thank Jesus after a big game... I mean, like Jesus is really laying his money on the Bills.... God not laying any money, he is more the bookie. He takes action from both sides of every game. Team wins, God gets all the credit, team loses it is just part of gods plan. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 1 hour ago, DC Tom said: Yeah, just like the Jews and the Babylonians... yep, who said god has no sense of game play ? keeping it interesting for eons. Even the dinosaurs found out Her sense of humor. 1 hour ago, DC Tom said: Yeah, just like the Jews and the Babylonians... yep, who said god has no sense of game play ? keeping it interesting for eons. Even the dinosaurs found out Her sense of humor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Billsflyer12 said: God not laying any money, he is more the bookie. He takes action from both sides of every game. Team wins, God gets all the credit, team loses it is just part of gods plan. No one ever thanks the bookie...or refers to Him as their personal savior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardyBoy Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 14 minutes ago, HardyBoy said: Also, a lot of those pressures have been codified through organized religions across time and culture since before people drew pictures on the walls of a cave. Not to quote myself except that my post was already too long, but the Walls of the Cave reference wasn't random (enjoy, it's a pretty cool song): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts