For those calling for FO and coaching change

[2003Contenders]

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Although I do want a Modern NFL Offense not one built to play in 70s because they may have a bad weather game in Buffalo sometime 

 

And where is out young core of talented players from all out high picks???  Ooo thats right traded away or let walk just to draft in the SAME position 

Which is a great argument for continuity. The problem with Whaley is that he never had the opportunity to work with a coach of his own choosing -- Marrone, followed by Rex (Whaley reportedly wanted H. Jackson). At least McD and B are joined at the hip, and hopefully their partnership eventually bears fruit.

[RyanC883]

Only coaching change I would LOVE is fire Dennison and grab McAdoo as OC or get Roman back.  

[atlbillsfan1975]

After going to the game yesterday and seeing and talking to some of the fans I can understand how this is mentioned. They have three years. This is a 6-8 win team. It always was. They will draft well and they will get better. I would rather build a sustainable winner vs instant gratification. Both would be ideal, I just don’t think it happens in the NFL with out a capable WB.

[TigerJ]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

The Bills are unlikely to get better quickly with yet another front office and coaching change.  The NFLjust retreads coaches and coaching staffs.  The dismantling of the Bills roster is once again nothing more than a treadmill of change.  There has been a lot of activity and proclamations but no ground gained.

 

Each new regime coming in brings with it a supposedly different approach and philosophy.  High draft picks and high dollar players are dumped and eventually replaced.  The cycle breeds futility.  The best teams in the league identify their QB build around him and maintain some stabilty in GM and coaching.

 

It is way too early to call for yet another change in Buffalo.  The truth of the matter is that the Bills may be lucky enough to sneak into the playoffs in a really bad AFC this year.  If so, they will do so on an aged roster (by NFL standards) that still has a few bloated contracts on it.  The housecleaning will continue.  The first thing the Bills must do is find their QB of the future.  Until then the rest of the roster activity is simply running hard in place.

Absolutely 100% agree.  Instant success for a new regime is not unheard of, but it is not terribly common.  Continuity tends to be far better than a constant merry-go-round of change, and, more than any other team the Bills have defined a merry-go-round of change over the past 2 decades.

[PolishDave]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm setting my sights high.  If they only get 2 very good players out of those 5 very good picks I'll be a little miffed I won't lie.  I don't expect them to hit on all 5.  But this team needs rebuilding on both lines as well as a Quarterback.  They gotta make a start on that in April.  

 

They only got 1 last draft.   Tre White.

 

What are the odds they get 3 or 4 Tre White's in the next draft?

 

Prepare to be disappointed.

 

4 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

One more reason why I'd like to see Peterman start, so they can truly evaluate what is or isn't there in a QB that has shown signs of promise before spending a 1st or two 1sts or a 2nd on a QB when they absolutely NEED O-line and D-line help, and LBers, and two Corners and a great RB to send Shady off into the sunset...there's FA too, and while Doug was terrible at the Draft for the most part, he did do well with getting pro personnel in here to really help out. Let's see them do that, and they did get a good player in Gaines, but he's been injured and his difference has been seen in his absence, and Matthews is a good WR but you need a decent QB to throw to him, and so depth and key positions are big reasons to watch the 2018 off-season as to how they'll attack those concerns. 

 

I am leaning this way too.    The defense is just so bad right now.   They have become what I thought they were going to be when the season started.   Sad.    If the team finishes the season as poorly as they have played the last 2 games, the are going to have WAY too many holes to fill in one draft.    Better be damn good in the free agent market too.

 

I think if Peterman had it in him to surprise to the upside that much though, he would already have been starting.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, PolishDave said:

 

They only got 1 last draft.   Tre White.

 

What are the odds they get 3 or 4 Tre White's in the next draft?

 

Prepare to be disappointed.

 

 

I am leaning this way too.    The defense is just so bad right now.   They have become what I thought they were going to be when the season started.   Sad.    If the team finishes the season as poorly as they have played the last 2 games, the are going to have WAY too many holes to fill in one draft.    Better be damn good in the free agent market too.

 

I think if Peterman had it in him to surprise to the upside that much though, he would already have been starting.

 

Well one per draft even with the standard 7 picks ain't really good enough.  That would be a downgrade on what Whaley was finding.  Expecting them to hit on just over half of their picks in the first 3 rounds and 1 guy in the 4th-7th is a perfectly reasonable expectation.  

[SoTier]

2 minutes ago, Dr. K said:

This practice of blaming the Bills' continued ineptitude on Russ Brandon is idiotic. Brandon does not hire the coaches. He does not assemble the roster. He does not set the schemes or prepare the game plan or do the game day coaching. 

 

Sure, fire Russ Brandon. It will make absolutely no difference except to marketing. 

 

 

Just now, teef said:

really playing the russ brandon angle still?  good lord man, get a new schtick.  

 

He's President of the Bills.  He's been in charge of the Bills under various titles since 2006. 

• The Bills have a 73-103 record and 0 play off appearances since 2006.
• The Bills have a .415 winning percentage since 2006.
• The Bills have  had 1 winning season (9-7), 1 8-8 season, and 9 losing seasons since 2006.
• The Bills finished last in the AFCE from 2008 through 2013.
• The Bills have one of the lowest retention rates of high round draft picks of any NFL team over the last decade.  In 2017 alone, they shipped out 3 first rounders (Dareus, Gilmore, Watkins), 2 second rounders (Woods, Ragland), and at least 1 third rounder (Goodwin). 
• The Bills have traded away a Pro Bowl LT (Peters) and a Pro Bowl RB (Lynch) since 2006 who went on to have All Pro and HOF careers with other teams.
• The Bills have had 2 GMs and 5 HCs not counting interim HCs.  They've changed owners.  They are no closer to making the playoffs in 2017 than they were in 2006.  Actually, since they have less talent as of today than they had in 2006, they probably aren't even as close.

So, when does "accountability" for the miserable record the Bills have compiled over the last 11 years get applied to the individuals who make key decisions on hiring GMs, HCs, budgets for coaching staffs, players, etc?   Apparently, ol' Harry Truman's "The buck stops here" doesn't apply to Russ Brandon.

 

And, no, Teef, I'm NOT getting "a new schtick" because you cannot change an organizational culture while leaving the individual responsible for that organizational culture in place.  

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

How many people really expected a fast start?  

 

Show of hands.  

 

 

 

 

That's what I thought.    

Enjoy what you can and try to Relax.   

Edited November 13, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[Uncle Joe]

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

I think they are on the right path.  They just need the athletes.  There is no depth on this team.  They were able to cobble together some game-planning and inspiration to get some victories out of the gate.... but the film is out.  

I

 

Good coaches adapt. The next few weeks may be telling for this coaching staff.
And I agree with the lack of depth.

[SoTier]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Well one per draft even with the standard 7 picks ain't really good enough.  That would be a downgrade on what Whaley was finding.  Expecting them to hit on just over half of their picks in the first 3 rounds and 1 guy in the 4th-7th is a perfectly reasonable expectation.  

 

Define on "hit on".  NFL caliber or better than the trash that the Bills currently have at some positions?   Whaley was hitting on NFL caliber players, but most of his picks weren't "difference makers".  Of course, if Watkins or Woods or Dareus blossom into difference makers on other teams, then it will be just a bigger indictment of the Bills organization, won't it?

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

4 hours ago, Nervous Guy said:

yep and for those that bashed the coach and GM, I guess they are eating crow.

 

Come on, you know better than this.

 

What did the nills do WITH those guys? Nothing. Jack ****, and even less than that.

 

 

[teef]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

 

He's President of the Bills.  He's been in charge of the Bills under various titles since 2006. 

• The Bills have a 73-103 record and 0 play off appearances since 2006.
• The Bills have a .415 winning percentage since 2006.
• The Bills have  had 1 winning season (9-7), 1 8-8 season, and 9 losing seasons since 2006.
• The Bills finished last in the AFCE from 2008 through 2013.
• The Bills have one of the lowest retention rates of high round draft picks of any NFL team over the last decade.  In 2017 alone, they shipped out 3 first rounders (Dareus, Gilmore, Watkins), 2 second rounders (Woods, Ragland), and at least 1 third rounder (Goodwin). 
• The Bills have traded away a Pro Bowl LT (Peters) and a Pro Bowl RB (Lynch) since 2006 who went on to have All Pro and HOF careers with other teams.
• The Bills have had 2 GMs and 5 HCs not counting interim HCs.  They've changed owners.  They are no closer to making the playoffs in 2017 than they were in 2006.  Actually, since they have less talent as of today than they had in 2006, they probably aren't even as close.

So, when does "accountability" for the miserable record the Bills have compiled over the last 11 years get applied to the individuals who make key decisions on hiring GMs, HCs, budgets for coaching staffs, players, etc?   Apparently, ol' Harry Truman's "The buck stops here" doesn't apply to Russ Brandon.

 

And, no, Teef, I'm NOT getting "a new schtick" because you cannot change an organizational culture while leaving the individual responsible for that organizational culture in place.  

Tier, i think you're just looking too hard for a boogeyman.  

 

what's happening is what most people expected to happen this year.  the team is being purged of guys they don't want, and they're creating space to bring guys in in fa, as well as completely re-establish the team for the draft.  this offseason is what's going to define this staff.  sure guys like dareus were moved, and was money a factor?  of course.  but it's not just a matter of letting guys go to be cheap.  it's a value game, and some guys just can't be over paid while not living up to job expectations.  the only guy that's really proven his worth after leaving was woods.  

[BigBuff423]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Well one per draft even with the standard 7 picks ain't really good enough.  That would be a downgrade on what Whaley was finding.  Expecting them to hit on just over half of their picks in the first 3 rounds and 1 guy in the 4th-7th is a perfectly reasonable expectation.  

 

First, Beane and his staff weren't here for the Draft. Second, there is absolutely NO way to tell after half a season whether the remaining parts of the Draft are any "good". Zay had his breakout game and then due to a cheap shot got injured, then Milano came on like gang busters only to be sidelined for some unknown reason and Dawkins has been a Rookie - up and down - and that's not including what they've done by obtaining some players, obtaining more Draft picks and losing a guy like Sammy who by his own admission was not a team first kind of player. 

 

Beane and his assembled team deserve actually two or even three full off-seasons, but goodness we can't even give them ONE? McD probably had the heaviest hand in Drafting Tre and trading back with KC to obtain more Draft capital for this year, knowing what road lied ahead, but he's a HC, not a personnel guy per se....

[Punching Bag]

4 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

Much much less willing to come to Buffalo?

 

Not as many experience NFL people know about you to disencourage them to go to Buffalo as shown by some of the front office hirings so do not worry!

[SaviorPeterman]

My biggest problem with this latest regime is they seem to be operating as if they've been told they are getting a minimum of 3+ years here to fix this mess. Which is why we here all this 'process' talk and we've seen the flurry of trades and roster moves since McD/Beane have been here.

 

And it goes back to the Pegulas who I simply don't believe have the faintest clue when comes to owning pro sports franchises. Great people, absolutely. But these are he same folks that have now let two NFL coaches seduce them with big talk and little action and rush into a hire. Jury is obviously still out on McD but his defense is simply no better than Rex Ryan's so far, and even Rex's defense never allowed the type of game the Saints had yesterday. Same people that have also insisted on keeping like the likes of Russ Brandon and Jim Overdorf employed by this franchise instead of draining the swamp so to speak and ridding themselves of every festering piece of garbage from the previous ownership.

 

Bottom line in a league still rife with parity and worse to first finished each year you have to figure the Bills would get lucky at some point. But honestly lucking into the playoffs this year by default at 8-8 or even possibly 7-9 because the rest of the conference is so terrible is the worst possibly scenario for this team.

 

In the end though I still forsee an 18th straight  year without the playoffs because the Bills will keep losing and somebody else will play well enough to get in. And watching the two teams behind the Bills in that category (Jags and Rams) actually play great this year and earn a spot in the playoffs will be added salt in the wound so to speak. Especially since the Rams are loaded with former Bills players and the Jags have the best coach the Bills had since Wade Phillips.

[May Day 10]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

 

He's President of the Bills.  He's been in charge of the Bills under various titles since 2006. 

• The Bills have a 73-103 record and 0 play off appearances since 2006.
• The Bills have a .415 winning percentage since 2006.
• The Bills have  had 1 winning season (9-7), 1 8-8 season, and 9 losing seasons since 2006.
• The Bills finished last in the AFCE from 2008 through 2013.
• The Bills have one of the lowest retention rates of high round draft picks of any NFL team over the last decade.  In 2017 alone, they shipped out 3 first rounders (Dareus, Gilmore, Watkins), 2 second rounders (Woods, Ragland), and at least 1 third rounder (Goodwin). 
• The Bills have traded away a Pro Bowl LT (Peters) and a Pro Bowl RB (Lynch) since 2006 who went on to have All Pro and HOF careers with other teams.
• The Bills have had 2 GMs and 5 HCs not counting interim HCs.  They've changed owners.  They are no closer to making the playoffs in 2017 than they were in 2006.  Actually, since they have less talent as of today than they had in 2006, they probably aren't even as close.

So, when does "accountability" for the miserable record the Bills have compiled over the last 11 years get applied to the individuals who make key decisions on hiring GMs, HCs, budgets for coaching staffs, players, etc?   Apparently, ol' Harry Truman's "The buck stops here" doesn't apply to Russ Brandon.

 

And, no, Teef, I'm NOT getting "a new schtick" because you cannot change an organizational culture while leaving the individual responsible for that organizational culture in place.  

 

I have been one of the most consistently outspoken Brandon-firers for almost a decade.  I have been skeptical with every half measure they have taken to make 'changes' that always resulted in Russ Brandon remaining untouched and front-and-center.  I know his dream and career goal was to be a football (or baseball) executive (on the GM side), and Ralph Wilson really had an affection for Brandon, and prioritized giving him the opportunity to learn and GM.... while shielding him from the fans' ire (such as the Buddy Nix 'general manager of football' circus.    

 

At this point, I am satisfied with the evidence that he has finally been walled-off enough from the football side.  McDermott and Beane finally break up the joke of the lineage of Levy-Brandon-Nix-Whaley that was largely designed to preserve the influence of Brandon and a few lifers. McDermott and Beane, unlike those other guys, are strong voices from the outside, with lofty aspirations.  They would not agree to take jobs here if they needed to defer to unqualified people (this is why the Bills were never able to get any serious consideration from any coveted Head Coach candidate or FO candidates who matter).  It is also why our only two 9-7 coaches quit.

 

Under Brandon, they dont make these moves this season, especially the Watkins one. They would have rode him out to either a Franchise Tag battle, or just off a cliff. Trading down the way they did was a good move for the future....    The team failed to see more than 1 move ahead for the last 20 years.   As somebody well studied in droughtology.... this is different, and I am willing to see this rebuild through.  

Edited November 13, 2017 by May Day 10

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Define on "hit on".  NFL caliber or better than the trash that the Bills currently have at some positions?   Whaley was hitting on NFL caliber players, but most of his picks weren't "difference makers".  Of course, if Watkins or Woods or Dareus blossom into difference makers on other teams, then it will be just a bigger indictment of the Bills organization, won't it?

 

 

Okay let's put it this way..... From our 8 picks (5 in the first 3 rounds) I'd want them to find at least 2 cornerstone players - A QB and one other and two good starters.  Before anyone tells me that is "unrealistic" that is what it takes to turn around failing programmes.  Go look at those 3 Seahawks drafts 2010-2012.  They produced:

 

Earl Thomas

Kam Chancellor

Richard Sherman

KJ Wright

Bobby Wagner

Russell Wilson

 

SIX Pro-Bowlers and absolute cornerstones for the success of that organisation.  They also produced a host of guys who were good there for one contract - Russell Okung, Golden Tate Byron Maxwell, Malcolm Smith, Bruce Irvin, James Carpenter and Jeremy Lane who isn't quite a cornerstone but has been a starting corner for them for a number of years.  Oh and they found Doug Baldwin, Jermaine Kearse and DeShawn Shead to name but a few as UDFAs in that same 3 year  span.  

 

 

Now I accept they are a bit of a one off but look at the Jaguars as another example.... they have turned that roster round through the draft.  Allen Robinson, Jalen Ramsey, Myles Jack, Telvin Smith, Cam Robinson, Marquise Lee, Hurns as a college FA.  Oakland did the same with a draft that landed Derek Carr, Khalil Mack and Gabe Jackson.  They haven't maybe hit on as many top players since then Oakland but that one draft with a QB and an impact maker on each line changed their team.  

 

When you have been bad as long as the Bills have you have to have drafts where you hit and hit big to turn the ship around.  We have the ammunition to do that in 2018.  We need to make sure we take the chance.  

15 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

First, Beane and his staff weren't here for the Draft. Second, there is absolutely NO way to tell after half a season whether the remaining parts of the Draft are any "good". Zay had his breakout game and then due to a cheap shot got injured, then Milano came on like gang busters only to be sidelined for some unknown reason and Dawkins has been a Rookie - up and down - and that's not including what they've done by obtaining some players, obtaining more Draft picks and losing a guy like Sammy who by his own admission was not a team first kind of player. 

 

Beane and his assembled team deserve actually two or even three full off-seasons, but goodness we can't even give them ONE? McD probably had the heaviest hand in Drafting Tre and trading back with KC to obtain more Draft capital for this year, knowing what road lied ahead, but he's a HC, not a personnel guy per se....

 

I wasn't saying it was one in the last draft, I was responding to someone who said expecting them to find more than one was not fair.  I absolutely want to give this HC and GM time.  I want them to have a hit 2018 draft.  They have the ammunition to get it done.  If they do they will turn this team around and be the guys who lead us back.  If they waste it then they probably won't be here in 3 years.  Even for an organisation like the Bills who have looked at the Draft as the golden goose year on year the 2018 Draft has the potential to be franchise changing in a way few others have since 1985.

[BigBuff423]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I wasn't saying it was one in the last draft, I was responding to someone who said expecting them to find more than one was not fair.  I absolutely want to give this HC and GM time.  I want them to have a hit 2018 draft.  They have the ammunition to get it done.  If they do they will turn this team around and be the guys who lead us back.  If they waste it then they probably won't be here in 3 years.  Even for an organisation like the Bills who have looked at the Draft as the golden goose year on year the 2018 Draft has the potential to be franchise changing in a way few others have since 1985.

 

My bad - apologies, I should have read more carefully. Thanks.

[oldmanfan]

The NFL has a committee of respected guys like Polian and Dungy that review and make suggestions in who is ready for the HC spot.  McD was prominent on that list.  And Beane was similarly on short lists for GM.  

 

Spare me the wanting to change coaches and GMs all of a sudden.  Spare me the crap about the Pegulas not knowing anything.  They learned their lessons both with the Sabres and the Bills about hiring bombastic individuals (Murray, Ryan), and they've hired younger well respected individuals for both franchises to develop contenders on a yearly basis.

 

No one would have believed a 5-4 record at the beginning of the season.  They have to fix the run D.  They are getting physically dominated up front on both sides of the ball.  Time for guys to step up and say enough.

[BuffaloBill]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Until Russ Brandon and his FO proteges are gone from OBD, what we've seen the last decade is what we're going to continue to see on the field.   That's who has been running the team since Donahoe was fired back in 2005, and the quality of management speaks for itself. 

 

 

What does Rus Brandon have to do with the current roster?  Brandon has been put in charge of exactly what he is good at, marketing the Bills and the Sabres.  He is not a part of the Bills on-the-field and football strategy decisions.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

What does Rus Brandon have to do with the current roster?  Brandon has been put in charge of exactly what he is good at, marketing the Bills and the Sabres.  He is not a part of the Bills on-the-field and football strategy decisions.

 

"don't let this guy leave the building."

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Lol.

 

wrong.

 

the difference is they have talent across the board. Bottles blows. He's not better then Tyrod. Difference is Marrone motivates that **** out of his team and their defense is very good across the board. 

Bottles blows, Tyrod blows and Morrone motives people? 

Edited November 13, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

I laugh at those calling for changes in coaching or front office, I don't think people realize how bad Whaley !@#$ed up this roster, year 1 were purging the roster, year 2 will be bringing even more of McDermott/Beane type of players and by year 3 the roster should be almost entirely revamped. It's been 17 years and probably counting for us but they just got here, the fact they're over achieving with guys like Andre Holmes, Roman Humber, Lorenzo Alexander, Rookie Tre'Davious White and Nick O'leary. I mean just look at our LB core and on most teams those are special teams players or backups, I don't think this team has given up on McDermott at all, I just don't think they're talented enough to be a team like Saints/Patriots/Chiefs etc. unless they play a perfect game. The best thing to happen to us will be to lose unfortunately and I don't care what anyone says, a franchise QB is needed but if were bad enough we won't have to give up the mother load to get one, otherwise were probably giving up both 1sts and next years to get either Josh Rosen/Jackson /Darnold or whoever rises up the charts by draft day, Just my opinions.

[Alphadawg7]

I have to admit, its mind blowing to think people are calling for major FO changes at this point.  McDermott has done a good job thus far for the most part, one could even say he had this team over achieving early in the season.  Half of a season is WAY too small a sample size to determine a coaches future, especially one who had early success before hitting a 2 game skid.  

 

That being said, Dennison has a legit reason to be on the hot seat.  His play calling, play design, use of personnel has been unbelievably predictable, boring, and outright stupid at times.  Players still need to execute, so this isnt a pass on the offense, but at the same time, Dennison has clearly been a big part of the problem too.  

 

As fas as Beane goes...I am on the record for hating some of the trades.  I hated the Sammy trade, but going out and getting Kelvin now makes me ok with it as we still have Gaines and the 2nd from Sammy trade and got back a legit #1 target with size.  Sammy is the better WR, but KB is no slouch and I will take him and the other assets over just Sammy now.  But the Dareus trade is one I can not defend.  Just terrible compensation where sitting on the record we had he would have been of more use to us this year than anyone we will draft in the 6th round who most likely wont be in the NFL more than 2 to 3 years.  

 

Still, with Beane, its too early and he has a ton of draft assets next year to make his mark on this team.  I have had a love/hate relationship with some of his trades, but still its way way too early to make any conclusive decisions on him either.  How he does in this next draft is going to likely determine his long term future here.  And unless TT makes some kind of significant turnaround the rest of this year, his job security may come down to which QB he drafts this year and if they pan out.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I have to admit, its mind blowing to think people are calling for major FO changes at this point.  McDermott has done a good job thus far for the most part, one could even say he had this team over achieving early in the season.  Half of a season is WAY too small a sample size to determine a coaches future, especially one who had early success before hitting a 2 game skid.  

 

That being said, Dennison has a legit reason to be on the hot seat.  His play calling, play design, use of personnel has been unbelievably predictable, boring, and outright stupid at times.  Players still need to execute, so this isnt a pass on the offense, but at the same time, Dennison has clearly been a big part of the problem too.  

 

As fas as Beane goes...I am on the record for hating some of the trades.  I hated the Sammy trade, but going out and getting Kelvin now makes me ok with it as we still have Gaines and the 2nd from Sammy trade and got back a legit #1 target with size.  Sammy is the better WR, but KB is no slouch and I will take him and the other assets over just Sammy now.  But the Dareus trade is one I can not defend.  Just terrible compensation where sitting on the record we had he would have been of more use to us this year than anyone we will draft in the 6th round who most likely wont be in the NFL more than 2 to 3 years.  

 

Still, with Beane, its too early and he has a ton of draft assets next year to make his mark on this team.  I have had a love/hate relationship with some of his trades, but still its way way too early to make any conclusive decisions on him either.  How he does in this next draft is going to likely determine his long term future here.  And unless TT makes some kind of significant turnaround the rest of this year, his job security may come down to which QB he drafts this year and if they pan out.

 

Don't agree on Dennison - as is being discussed elsewhere I think he is far from perfect but he is a scapegoat for players and decisions being made above his head - like Fat Mike being the #2 back, Castillo being his OL coach etc...

 

But I absolutely agree with your final para.  The 2018 draft will make or break Beane and ultimately McDermott too, because they are tied together at the hip.  I want these two guys to get the standard 3 years to right the ship and then for a proper decision on progress or lack of it to be taken.  The past two weeks have been concerning, but my expectations this year were 7 or 8 wins and I always thought 5 of them would come from the first 8 games (though not exactly in the order they did).  I was never going to be ready to bury this regime after 2017.  The next draft looms even larger than the draft normally does though.  

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Don't agree on Dennison - as is being discussed elsewhere I think he is far from perfect but he is a scapegoat for players and decisions being made above his head - like Fat Mike being the #2 back, Castillo being his OL coach etc...

 

But I absolutely agree with your final para.  The 2018 draft will make or break Beane and ultimately McDermott too, because they are tied together at the hip.  I want these two guys to get the standard 3 years to right the ship and then for a proper decision on progress or lack of it to be taken.  The past two weeks have been concerning, but my expectations this year were 7 or 8 wins and I always thought 5 of them would come from the first 8 games (though not exactly in the order they did).  I was never going to be ready to bury this regime after 2017.  The next draft looms even larger than the draft normally does though.  

 

I agree, the use of personnel is a problem and agree with all the ones you sited.  But on the other hand, how do we know if its Dennison or McD who is making those personnel decisions?  So to absolve him of that is to make an assumption he has no hand in that, and I find that a stretch.  

 

I don't think in game McD is going over to Dennison and saying get Tolbert in there for McCoy and run a sweep.  I can see how McD may have say on certain guys starting, but in game use of personnel like Tolbert I think is more on Dennison than McD as he is calling the plays, and the plays usually dictate the personnel.  Its probably more of a shared issue, and again, I still think Dennison is making poor decisions in game in this regard.  

 

The moment I see fat Tolbert on the field, I am not gonna call a draw to him or screen pass to him on 3rd and 15.  So Dennison still shares in this responsibility, and probably mostly on him, in regards to in game personnel decisions in terms of use.  

[njbuff]

While I am not confident that this regime can turn this thing around (the last two games definitely raise SERIOUS questions)...................

 

To call for the heads after 9 NFL games is beyond ridiculous.

 

Let's see what they can do when Taylor is no longer the starting QB.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I agree, the use of personnel is a problem and agree with all the ones you sited.  But on the other hand, how do we know if its Dennison or McD who is making those personnel decisions?  So to absolve him of that is to make an assumption he has no hand in that, and I find that a stretch.  

 

I don't think in game McD is going over to Dennison and saying get Tolbert in there for McCoy and run a sweep.  I can see how McD may have say on certain guys starting, but in game use of personnel like Tolbert I think is more on Dennison than McD as he is calling the plays, and the plays usually dictate the personnel.  Its probably more of a shared issue, and again, I still think Dennison is making poor decisions in game in this regard.  

 

The moment I see fat Tolbert on the field, I am not gonna call a draw to him or screen pass to him on 3rd and 15.  So Dennison still shares in this responsibility, and probably mostly on him, in regards to in game personnel decisions in terms of use.  

 

I have replied in the Dennison thread.  I thought let's try and keep this one to FO and HC or else I end up having the same conversation in 97 different place. 

[SoTier]

4 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

 

I have been one of the most consistently outspoken Brandon-firers for almost a decade.  I have been skeptical with every half measure they have taken to make 'changes' that always resulted in Russ Brandon remaining untouched and front-and-center.  I know his dream and career goal was to be a football (or baseball) executive (on the GM side), and Ralph Wilson really had an affection for Brandon, and prioritized giving him the opportunity to learn and GM.... while shielding him from the fans' ire (such as the Buddy Nix 'general manager of football' circus.    

 

At this point, I am satisfied with the evidence that he has finally been walled-off enough from the football side.  McDermott and Beane finally break up the joke of the lineage of Levy-Brandon-Nix-Whaley that was largely designed to preserve the influence of Brandon and a few lifers. McDermott and Beane, unlike those other guys, are strong voices from the outside, with lofty aspirations.  They would not agree to take jobs here if they needed to defer to unqualified people (this is why the Bills were never able to get any serious consideration from any coveted Head Coach candidate or FO candidates who matter).  It is also why our only two 9-7 coaches quit.

 

Under Brandon, they dont make these moves this season, especially the Watkins one. They would have rode him out to either a Franchise Tag battle, or just off a cliff. Trading down the way they did was a good move for the future....    The team failed to see more than 1 move ahead for the last 20 years.   As somebody well studied in droughtology.... this is different, and I am willing to see this rebuild through.  

 

Sorry, but I subscribe to the Harry S. Truman school of accountability: the buck stops here (ie, the top).  Brandon has been the top guy for more than a decade, and he's responsible for the organizational culture on the Bills that puts the emphasis on profitability rather than on wins.  His doesn't have to be "hands on" because he's delegated that to his subordinates, individuals who are conveniently nameless and buried in organizational charts with esoteric titles.  Beane and McDermott didn't hire themselves did they?  Beane wasn't even here when the decisions to not sign Gilmore, Gillislee, and Woods, and I don't think he was here when the actual decisions to trade Dareus and Watkins were made.  What kind of professional organization would leave such major personnel decisions as trading high profile players to a neophyte coach/manager who's never had this high a responsibility  when he doesn't even know them?  Somebody in the Bills FO made those decisions, and it wasn't Whaley, and if it had been, they could have easily been rescinded when he was gone.  Whaley danced to whatever tune his bosses at OBD played, and Beane does the same. 

 

Until and unless Brandon and his disciples go, the Bills are going to keep doing the same BS over and over again that they've done since 2006, and the drought will continue indefinitely.  They are never going to have an independent and experienced "football guy" as GM who has the power to hire his own coaches and decide which players to draft,  which ones to pay to keep, and which ones to let walk based on what's likely best for winning football games, not for fattening profit margins or putting butts in the seats.

 

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Okay let's put it this way..... From our 8 picks (5 in the first 3 rounds) I'd want them to find at least 2 cornerstone players - A QB and one other and two good starters.  Before anyone tells me that is "unrealistic" that is what it takes to turn around failing programmes.  Go look at those 3 Seahawks drafts 2010-2012.  They produced:

 

Earl Thomas

Kam Chancellor

Richard Sherman

KJ Wright

Bobby Wagner

Russell Wilson

 

SIX Pro-Bowlers and absolute cornerstones for the success of that organisation.  They also produced a host of guys who were good there for one contract - Russell Okung, Golden Tate Byron Maxwell, Malcolm Smith, Bruce Irvin, James Carpenter and Jeremy Lane who isn't quite a cornerstone but has been a starting corner for them for a number of years.  Oh and they found Doug Baldwin, Jermaine Kearse and DeShawn Shead to name but a few as UDFAs in that same 3 year  span.  

 

 

Now I accept they are a bit of a one off but look at the Jaguars as another example.... they have turned that roster round through the draft.  Allen Robinson, Jalen Ramsey, Myles Jack, Telvin Smith, Cam Robinson, Marquise Lee, Hurns as a college FA.  Oakland did the same with a draft that landed Derek Carr, Khalil Mack and Gabe Jackson.  They haven't maybe hit on as many top players since then Oakland but that one draft with a QB and an impact maker on each line changed their team.  

 

When you have been bad as long as the Bills have you have to have drafts where you hit and hit big to turn the ship around.  We have the ammunition to do that in 2018.  We need to make sure we take the chance.  

 

I wasn't saying it was one in the last draft, I was responding to someone who said expecting them to find more than one was not fair.  I absolutely want to give this HC and GM time.  I want them to have a hit 2018 draft.  They have the ammunition to get it done.  If they do they will turn this team around and be the guys who lead us back.  If they waste it then they probably won't be here in 3 years.  Even for an organisation like the Bills who have looked at the Draft as the golden goose year on year the 2018 Draft has the potential to be franchise changing in a way few others have since 1985.

 

The problem is that the Bills never keep enough of their best talent long enough for them to become cornerstones because they aren't willing to pay the going rate for top talent.

 

3 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

What does Rus Brandon have to do with the current roster?  Brandon has been put in charge of exactly what he is good at, marketing the Bills and the Sabres.  He is not a part of the Bills on-the-field and football strategy decisions.

 

He's the President of the Buffalo Bills, bud.  Y'know, the guy in charge.  The guy who makes the ultimate decisions about who to hire and who to fire, and who to pay and who to send packing.   That's what Russ Brandon has to do with the current roster. 

 

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Bortles blows.

 

Marrones a good coach and Jacksonville has acquired talent. They don't trade it away for no good reason.

 

Agreed.  Bortles is a step or two above Osweiler as a starter, even if he was taken in the top three in his draft year, and he really holds that team back.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Bortles blows.

 

Marrones a good coach and Jacksonville has acquired talent. They don't trade it away for no good reason.

Well agree to disagree 

 

Marrone IMO doesn’t know how to develop a QB.   

 

Whats Jax SOS?   I hear it’s pretty low.  

 

[Gray Beard]

8 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

I think they are on the right path.  They just need the athletes.  There is no depth on this team.  They were able to cobble together some game-planning and inspiration to get some victories out of the gate.... but the film is out.  

 

I think I still view Beane and McDermott favorably.  McDermott, I feel is a very good balance between a 'players' coach' and a guy who demands professionalism.   I also like the ripping off of the band-aid moves they have made. It stinks selling Dareus and Watkins for pennies on the dollar for what they cost... but there was little choice IMO.  These are the type of moves the Bills would shy away from throughout the drought.  

 

The one thing that troubles me... and has been troubling me all season.... is how in the heck can they have Tolbert as RB#2?  He shouldn't be in the NFL, at least as a ball carrier.  

^This.  Well put.  I'm glad I didn't have to type all of that.

[Foxx]

10 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

The Bills are unlikely to get better quickly with yet another front office and coaching change.  The NFLjust retreads coaches and coaching staffs.  The dismantling of the Bills roster is once again nothing more than a treadmill of change.  There has been a lot of activity and proclamations but no ground gained.

 

Each new regime coming in brings with it a supposedly different approach and philosophy.  High draft picks and high dollar players are dumped and eventually replaced.  The cycle breeds futility.  The best teams in the league identify their QB build around him and maintain some stabilty in GM and coaching.

 

It is way too early to call for yet another change in Buffalo.  The truth of the matter is that the Bills may be lucky enough to sneak into the playoffs in a really bad AFC this year.  If so, they will do so on an aged roster (by NFL standards) that still has a few bloated contracts on it.  The housecleaning will continue.  The first thing the Bills must do is find their QB of the future.  Until then the rest of the roster activity is simply running hard in place.

who's calling for a coaching change and a front office revamp? that is crazy talk. we are 9 games into a rebuilding precess, what do people expect?

 

with that being said though, the way we simply got manhandled and pushed around, all day long like it was the varsity squad against the jv team was embarrassing. it was like we didn't want to be out there on that field yesterday. i smell something is brewing in the team, i don't know what it is but it's almost like they were protesting something. when is the last time you saw a team get beat up and down the field like that. myself, i can't remember the last time.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

10 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Bills and Sabres current regimes will both be in place for at least 3 years IMHO.

 

I'll be very surprised if they aren't given 4 years including the current season.  Pegula strikes me as the kind of guy who doesn't want to make changes, but has recently made alot because he realized that mistakes were made.    Feel like this time he picked people and will let them develop together and give them time.

 

 

10 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

The good thing is most sane Bills fans are not calling for Beane or McD to be fired. However those same sane fans absolutely are correct to not fully buy into the new buzzword “of Process”. 

 

And there rightfully should be accountability in terms of discussing the flawed roster they built this year.  

 

Where's the flawed part?  While they won't admit to tanking, they went out of their way to trade away players who weren't good fits for draft picks to build for the future.  The problem they ran into was the team then went and started 5-2.    Sure they could have signed some over priced FA this past off-season who would have continued to keep them in salary cap hell, instead they went the other way. You'll likely see as much turn over in this coming off-season as you did this past year as they get the players they want.  The one difference is they won't be as hampered by money, but again, think you'll more see the team built through the draft.

[Sweats]

My god, we're only 9 games in with this new regime and people are calling for heads?

 

Shameful.........just shameful.

[Mr. WEO]

People calling for a new GM somehow have forgotten the Bills have just suffered through the two lowest IQ GMs in team history.  

 

Give it a little time.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

People calling for a new GM somehow have forgotten the Bills have just suffered through the two lowest IQ GMs in team history.  

 

Give it a little time.

That

[Fan in Chicago]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

People calling for a new GM somehow have forgotten the Bills have just suffered through the two lowest IQ GMs in team history.  

 

Give it a little time.

Whaley has low IQ?? what the heck are you talking about? Do you really understand the meaning of IQ?

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Whaley has low IQ?? what the heck are you talking about? Do you really understand the meaning of IQ?

 

Low football IQ.  He was a proven disaster.