Blame Dennison if You Want, But it's Not the System

[H2o]

The offense has struggled, but I don't believe it's Dennison or the system's fault. His system has been successful in multiple places. He learned under Shanahan and Kubiak spending time with Denver, Houston, a stop in Baltimore as a QB coach, and then back to Denver before coming here. 

 

The OL on the right side was never fixed. They blow up that side of the line every time. Then, because of the right side, they key on the left putting an extra defender or two. The holes for McCoy are nonexistent. The rushing game is not clicking because they can't block anyone in front of them. Terrible OL play. 

 

We have all seen Tyrod. Most of us knew what he was while others pounded the table for him. He is not the guy. He still exhibits the same deficiencies that he has the last two years. He's a good guy, a hard worker, by all accounts a great teammate, and a decent game manager. He will never be a guy who carries a team with his arm. Peterman should at least be given the month of December to show what he's got. If he looks good then so be it. If not, we HAVE to identify our QB in the draft then make our move. 

 

The WR talent is now there with Matthews, Benjamin, Jones, Thompson, Holmes, and Clay (when healthy). We have guys who have and can be productive. This again falls on the QB and the OL. The OL has to give the QB time to throw and the QB has to be able to read a defense then deliver an on time ball to the right guy. 

 

Dennison's system is mainly short to intermediate timing routes with some deep passes mixed in off of play action. The emphasis is on an accurate QB who gets the ball out on time. A lot of times that QB is having to throw the ball to an opening where his guy will be, not waiting until your guy is open to throw it. None of these are strengths for Taylor. If the holes get filled the system will work. 

 

We all got our hopes up when we won a few. Now everyone is looking for a place to lay the blame. Blame who you want, but I don't see this as Dennison's failure. He does what he can to try to cover up Tyrod's weaknesses, but with 3 years of tape it's damn near impossible. 

[The juice]

The players are not good overall. 

[BuffaloBill]

I have to wonder if Incognito has hit an age wall.

[MAJBobby]

I know for a fact the West Coast and Zone run scheme work in the NFL

[Roundybout]

Did you see Brate made a comment on Tyrod  again today, "we made him be a QB"

[Coach Tuesday]

So it’s not the systems - we just need four new linemen, a new QB, another WR, a backup running back, two pass rushers, two new defensive tackles, all new linebackers and a better punter.

[Bangarang]

Just now, BillsEnthusiast said:

Did you see Brate made a comment on Tyrod  again today, "we made him be a QB"

Who said that?

[Roundybout]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

Who said that?

 

My bad, Cameron Jordan, not Cameron Brate. The latter was on my fantasy team. 

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

My bad, Cameron Jordan, not Cameron Brate. The latter was on my fantasy team. 

 

 

 

...said every defense that's ever played tyrod ever.

[Bangarang]

Just now, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

My bad, Cameron Jordan, not Cameron Brate. The latter was on my fantasy team. 

 

 

 

We’ve seen that before

[H2o]

1 minute ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

My bad, Cameron Jordan, not Cameron Brate. The latter was on my fantasy team. 

 

And that is how you neutralize him

 

[Perry Turtle]

5 minutes ago, H2o said:

The offense has struggled, but I don't believe it's Dennison or the system's fault. His system has been successful in multiple places. He learned under Shanahan and Kubiak spending time with Denver, Houston, a stop in Baltimore as a QB coach, and then back to Denver before coming here. 

 

The OL on the right side was never fixed. They blow up that side of the line every time. Then, because of the right side, they key on the left putting an extra defender or two. The holes for McCoy are nonexistent. The rushing game is not clicking because they can't block anyone in front of them. Terrible OL play. 

 

We have all seen Tyrod. Most of us knew what he was while others pounded the table for him. He is not the guy. He still exhibits the same deficiencies that he has the last two years. He's a good guy, a hard worker, by all accounts a great teammate, and a decent game manager. He will never be a guy who carries a team with his arm. Peterman should at least be given the month of December to show what he's got. If he looks good then so be it. If not, we HAVE to identify our QB in the draft then make our move. 

 

The WR talent is now there with Matthews, Benjamin, Jones, Thompson, Holmes, and Clay (when healthy). We have guys who have and can be productive. This again falls on the QB and the OL. The OL has to give the QB time to throw and the QB has to be able to read a defense then deliver an on time ball to the right guy. 

 

Dennison's system is mainly short to intermediate timing routes with some deep passes mixed in off of play action. The emphasis is on an accurate QB who gets the ball out on time. A lot of times that QB is having to throw the ball to an opening where his guy will be, not waiting until your guy is open to throw it. None of these are strengths for Taylor. If the holes get filled the system will work. 

 

We all got our hopes up when we won a few. Now everyone is looking for a place to lay the blame. Blame who you want, but I don't see this as Dennison's failure. He does what he can to try to cover up Tyrod's weaknesses, but with 3 years of tape it's damn near impossible. 

I can completely blame Dennison, because if he's trying to play the system you describe with Taylor as QB, he's a moron.

 

Taylor does not make quick decisions and is not accurate.  He's an option guy, makes plays outside the pocket, and makes plays over the top (well he used to do this).

 

The Bills first drive was a good match of Taylor's ability to scheme.  The rest of the game, Dennison nailed Taylor in the pocket and it was a total failure.

 

If McDermott wants to keep Taylor is the starter, Dennison is going to have to change his play calling.  The goal should be to get Taylor 60 yards rushing, and the scheme should be built off of that.  Expecting Taylor to play from the pocket is suicide.

[Nuncha]

5 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

Did you see Brate made a comment on Tyrod  again today, "we made him be a QB"

Rex Ryan made him a starting QB here and its time to move on....

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

My bad, Cameron Jordan, not Cameron Brate. The latter was on my fantasy team. 

 

 

Hurry hurry defend, deflect and excuse

[Iron Maiden]

4 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

My bad, Cameron Jordan, not Cameron Brate. The latter was on my fantasy team. 

 

 

 

He's not the 1st saying it...and won't be the last......stack the box, stop Shady and we're done.....the whole world knows it by now.....

[estro613]

5 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

...said every defense that's ever played tyrod ever.

Yea, but Mike Schopp said that Tyrod is good, so I guess I'm supposed to believe him over what my eyes have shown me for the better part of 3 seasons.

[Perry Turtle]

2 minutes ago, estro613 said:

Yea, but Mike Schopp said that Tyrod is good, so I guess I'm supposed to believe him over what my eyes have shown me for the better part of 3 seasons.

Why are you worried about what Mike Schopp says?  Beane and McDermott believe that Taylor is a starting NFL QB.  That's what we all should be worried about.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Perry Turtle

[Pbomb]

9 minutes ago, Perry Turtle said:

I can completely blame Dennison, because if he's trying to play the system you describe with Taylor as QB, he's a moron.

 

Taylor does not make quick decisions and is not accurate.  He's an option guy, makes plays outside the pocket, and makes plays over the top (well he used to do this).

 

The Bills first drive was a good match of Taylor's ability to scheme.  The rest of the game, Dennison nailed Taylor in the pocket and it was a total failure.

 

If McDermott wants to keep Taylor is the starter, Dennison is going to have to change his play calling.  The goal should be to get Taylor 60 yards rushing, and the scheme should be built off of that.  Expecting Taylor to play from the pocket is suicide.

Defenses are forcing him to stay in the pocket because they know he cant beat them from there. When you never throw to wrs it makes game planning for the defense pretty easy

Edited November 13, 2017 by Pbomb

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

How is it not mostly Dennison's fault? He took over an offense with the top rushing attack in consecutive years, and (with the same personnel) has dropped it to 14th? 

 

His playcalling is suspect at best. How many times do we need to run Tolbert up the gut into a stacked box before he can admit that's a bad idea? Or throws to Tolbert in the flat? Pretty much any play featuring Tolbert is a bad idea. 

 

Teams have been stacking the box against TT since 2015 and our previous coordinators found ways to run the ball effectively. 

[H2o]

29 minutes ago, Perry Turtle said:

I can completely blame Dennison, because if he's trying to play the system you describe with Taylor as QB, he's a moron.

 

Taylor does not make quick decisions and is not accurate.  He's an option guy, makes plays outside the pocket, and makes plays over the top (well he used to do this).

 

The Bills first drive was a good match of Taylor's ability to scheme.  The rest of the game, Dennison nailed Taylor in the pocket and it was a total failure.

 

If McDermott wants to keep Taylor is the starter, Dennison is going to have to change his play calling.  The goal should be to get Taylor 60 yards rushing, and the scheme should be built off of that.  Expecting Taylor to play from the pocket is suicide.

McDermott knew what he brought in and thought Dennison could salvage Tyrod due to their familiarity from Baltimore. It hasn't worked. You find a QB and fix the OL then the offense WILL work. They have been bringing in guys to fit what they are doing. QB will be another they do the same with. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by H2o

[dulles]

4 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

How is it not mostly Dennison's fault? He took over an offense with the top rushing attack in consecutive years, and (with the same personnel) has dropped it to 14th? 

 

His playcalling is suspect at best. How many times do we need to run Tolbert up the gut into a stacked box before he can admit that's a bad idea? Or throws to Tolbert in the flat? Pretty much any play featuring Tolbert is a bad idea. 

 

Teams have been stacking the box against TT since 2015 and our previous coordinators found ways to run the ball effectively. 

I'm beginning to think that Dennison doesn't trust TT to make the decisions that he needs to make.  I'm also thinking Rico may be a closet Peterman backer...He really let the kid play in the closing minutes.  

Edited November 13, 2017 by dulles

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

How is it not mostly Dennison's fault? He took over an offense with the top rushing attack in consecutive years, and (with the same personnel) has dropped it to 14th? 

 

His playcalling is suspect at best. How many times do we need to run Tolbert up the gut into a stacked box before he can admit that's a bad idea? Or throws to Tolbert in the flat? Pretty much any play featuring Tolbert is a bad idea. 

 

Teams have been stacking the box against TT since 2015 and our previous coordinators found ways to run the ball effectively. 

This^^^  Why has Tyrod's production, Shady's production, and the OLine dropped off so much from last season if Dennison's scheme is not the problem?  Scoring points was not a problem last year, we were a top 5 scoring offense.

[H2o]

5 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

How is it not mostly Dennison's fault? He took over an offense with the top rushing attack in consecutive years, and (with the same personnel) has dropped it to 14th? 

 

His playcalling is suspect at best. How many times do we need to run Tolbert up the gut into a stacked box before he can admit that's a bad idea? Or throws to Tolbert in the flat? Pretty much any play featuring Tolbert is a bad idea. 

 

Teams have been stacking the box against TT since 2015 and our previous coordinators found ways to run the ball effectively. 

Have you ever thought that Tyrod can't identify where the opening will be so he tries to immediately check down to whoever the RB is?

[Niagara Dude]

The guy a gimmick QB ,  teams are just rushing 5-6 guys and keeping closed in the pocket.  He needs to benched,  not sure why we returned with him this season.  Proved he cannot make plays when the game is on the line,  please bench ASAP.  Just so nice watching Peterman drop back and zip it,  just throw the dam ball and give your WR'S a chance.  He hangs onto the ball way too long,  hate watching play.

[The Now Moment]

39 minutes ago, Perry Turtle said:

I can completely blame Dennison, because if he's trying to play the system you describe with Taylor as QB, he's a moron.

 

Taylor does not make quick decisions and is not accurate.  He's an option guy, makes plays outside the pocket, and makes plays over the top (well he used to do this).

 

The Bills first drive was a good match of Taylor's ability to scheme.  The rest of the game, Dennison nailed Taylor in the pocket and it was a total failure.

 

If McDermott wants to keep Taylor is the starter, Dennison is going to have to change his play calling.  The goal should be to get Taylor 60 yards rushing, and the scheme should be built off of that.  Expecting Taylor to play from the pocket is suicide.

That's why a lot of people think they will replace Tyrod soon, maybe Tyrod isn't the match for the scheme that they are looking for.  I don't think they really want to change schemes for players, they want players to fit the schemes.  He seems to not fit.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Buffalo30

[H2o]

14 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

That's why a lot of people think they will replace Tyrod soon, maybe Tyrod isn't the match for the scheme that they are looking for.  I don't think they really want to change schemes for players, they want players to fit the schemes.  He seems to not fit.

Exactly. That is what they've been doing since day one. Getting guys who buy in to what they are doing as well as fit their system. We all thought things may have flipped over night, but the weaknesses have been found after 7 weeks and are now being exploited. 

[BillsfanAZ]

I am so sick of seeing Taylor dump the ball off to McCoy near the sideline right after the snap. McCoy should be the last resort in the flat to the sideline. While Taylor scrambles he misses quite a few open receivers. I am not saying Peterman will tear it up but he faced the same defense as Taylor did the previous series and did much better. I liked Petermans ball placement and anticipation. Peterman got the ball out quicker or slid in the pocket to open up a passing lane. 

[Albwan]

I just can't wait til this season is over, i remember the days when people would bust 

my stones because i was a bills fan, now they  just look at me with sympathy.

[Nitro]

2 hours ago, Buffalo30 said:

That's why a lot of people think they will replace Tyrod soon, maybe Tyrod isn't the match for the scheme that they are looking for.  I don't think they really want to change schemes for players, they want players to fit the schemes.  He seems to not fit.

Forcing players to fit your scheme is bad coaching  Dennison was canned from his last two OC jobs for a reason.  

[The Now Moment]

Just now, Nitro said:

Forcing players to fit your scheme is bad coaching  Dennison was canned from his last two OC jobs for a reason.  

They have a system in mind...they want the right guys in that system.  If he doesn't fit...they will find someone else.  That's why they are saying trust the process.  Trust what their systems are not reshape the system around an inherited player

[Dadonkadonk]

First it was TT doesn't throw over the middle. Then it is he looks to run too soon.  Now it is he doesn't make quick decisions when he stays in the pocket.  

 

This coaching staff has proven they don't care about anything a player has done in the past.  They start Ducasse over Miller, traded Sammy and Dareus, and let Gileslee walk. 

 

Don't you think if they thought Peterman was better he would be starting?

 

[Buffalo Boy]

3 hours ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

My bad, Cameron Jordan, not Cameron Brate. The latter was on my fantasy team. 

 

 

Said it in the Game thread.

All remaining opponents Defensive plans will do likewise.

He HATES the pocket.

[billspro]

The system may be good but he is not a good situational play caller. He has way too many predictable play calls. I don't see him being able to create match ups that put his playmakers in good situations. 

[Marty McFly]

3 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

How is it not mostly Dennison's fault? He took over an offense with the top rushing attack in consecutive years, and (with the same personnel) has dropped it to 14th? 

 

His playcalling is suspect at best. How many times do we need to run Tolbert up the gut into a stacked box before he can admit that's a bad idea? Or throws to Tolbert in the flat? Pretty much any play featuring Tolbert is a bad idea. 

 

Teams have been stacking the box against TT since 2015 and our previous coordinators found ways to run the ball effectively. 

Bam!

3 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

This^^^  Why has Tyrod's production, Shady's production, and the OLine dropped off so much from last season if Dennison's scheme is not the problem?  Scoring points was not a problem last year, we were a top 5 scoring offense.

BAM!!

4 minutes ago, billspro said:

The system may be good but he is not a good situational play caller. He has way too many predictable play calls. I don't see him being able to create match ups that put his playmakers in good situations. 

BAM!!!

 

 

These posters said it best. Dennison is trash. Lynn had this team with a worse roster in top 10 scoring.

Dennison called a screen... To TOLBERT!!!

 

This mothrfcker just cant call plays. Theyre too preditable and dont work to the rosters strength.

 

Everyone knows Dennison is to Kubiak as last years DC is to Rex Ryan.

 

Just a clip holder. Never called a meaningful game. Now that Kubiak isnt calling the plays Dennison is getting exposed and easy to shut down. We made close to no adnustments on offense at half time. Tyrod didnt have a good game eigher but the play calls were trash and our players arent good enough to make up for it. Period.

 

[familykwi]

7 hours ago, H2o said:

The offense has struggled, but I don't believe it's Dennison or the system's fault. His system has been successful in multiple places. He learned under Shanahan and Kubiak spending time with Denver, Houston, a stop in Baltimore as a QB coach, and then back to Denver before coming here....

Are there stats supporting the "Dennison system has been successful,"  comment?  His last couple of stays as OC, his offenses were no better than bottom half of the league.

 

Good coaches put their players in the best position to use THEIR strengths, not put square pegs in round holes.  Coaches coach players, not systems on paper.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, H2o said:

The offense has struggled, but I don't believe it's Dennison or the system's fault. His system has been successful in multiple places. He learned under Shanahan and Kubiak spending time with Denver, Houston, a stop in Baltimore as a QB coach, and then back to Denver before coming here.

 

I'm sure the system Dennison is trying to run is capable of success, I'm just curious where you get the idea that Dennison's system in particular has been successful?

It's been pointed out before that there was question how much of Houston's success and Denver's had to do with Kubiak, vs with Dennison, and how much of the (rather mediocre) 2006-2008 Denver offense was Dennison vs Shanahan.

Bottom line, I grant that the system Dennison is trying to run can be successful, but that's a far cry from Dennison having proven he can be successful teaching and executing that system out from Kubiak's shadow, or in adapting it to the strengths of the players he has.

6 hours ago, H2o said:

Exactly. That is what they've been doing since day one. Getting guys who buy in to what they are doing as well as fit their system. We all thought things may have flipped over night, but the weaknesses have been found after 7 weeks and are now being exploited. 

 

The problem with getting guys who "buy in" as well as "fit their system" is that it's difficult enough to establish a team of talented guys in this salary cap/FA era.  Putting extra restrictions on it by tossing aside talent that "doesn't fit" is giving yourself and your team a big handicap.

 

Wade Phillips said it:  "I don't understand the people that say, 'Hey, this is our scheme and that guy can't play in it,' a guy that can play, and is a good player, but, 'He can't play in our scheme.' To me, there's something wrong with your scheme," Phillips said. "You adapt the scheme to what the players can do, not what you can think of."

[GunnerBill]

I am absolutely with H2o. I think Dennison is an easy scapegoat. I don't think he is perfect but he is being hurt by execution of players. He has not dogmatically forced his scheme on the players... they have gone back to some of the Greg Roman run concepts since the bye and they had some success post Carolina in scheming ways for Tyrod to get comfortable moving out of the pocket. It isn't Dennison keeping Tyrod in the pocket the past 2 weeks.... it is opposing defenses.

To me here are the biggest three issues with the offense:

1. Offensive line play has got dramatically worse. No surprise. We just went from maybe the best OL Coach in the business to maybe the worst. Anyone who witnessed Juan Castillo's tenure in Baltimore knew what to expect. I have seen it said that it was Dennison's fault for hiring him.... but he didn't. Castillo was the first hire they made after McDermott. He is very much McDermott's choice and McDermott's man.

2. Lack of a legitimate #2 back. There was a play on the first drive yesterday that became an option pitch to Tolbert. It looked horrific and cost us yards. But it wasn't supposed to go to him it was just that Shady had been the check down on the previous play and was gassed. Defenses know at the moment that if they see off Shady there is no Karlos Williams or Mike Gillislee to punish them for relaxing. If anyone doubts that Tolbert is the #2 back on this team because McDermott and Beane want him to be then they haven't been paying attention.

3. Tyrod Taylor. I don't think Tyrod sucks but in 3 of our 4 losses (excluding the Jets) he has been a significant part of the problem. He was horrible yesterday missing a good TD chance on the 1st drive and after that even TV angles suggested there were opportunities to get the ball beyond the sticks on some of those third and long checkdowns. I will watch the all 22 when it comes out but I don't believe a single of those checkdowns was the playcall. I also don't believe that they called plays that targeted Benjamin 3 times in the first drive (ie. the script) then just forgot about him until Nate came in. No, there were plays to KB called, Tyrod just did not throw them.

[Rochesterfan]

9 hours ago, Perry Turtle said:

I can completely blame Dennison, because if he's trying to play the system you describe with Taylor as QB, he's a moron.

 

Taylor does not make quick decisions and is not accurate.  He's an option guy, makes plays outside the pocket, and makes plays over the top (well he used to do this).

 

The Bills first drive was a good match of Taylor's ability to scheme.  The rest of the game, Dennison nailed Taylor in the pocket and it was a total failure.

 

If McDermott wants to keep Taylor is the starter, Dennison is going to have to change his play calling.  The goal should be to get Taylor 60 yards rushing, and the scheme should be built off of that.  Expecting Taylor to play from the pocket is suicide.

 

 

The issue is you have new coaches with a long term vision and a QB that is just a stop gap.  

 

The Bills had a choice - install an offense that fits TT and try to build that (what the last regime did) or design and offense and decide what kind of QB you need for next year and long term.  They are going with the latter - install the offense they want to run long term and see who fits and build from that and find the QB and it is the right call.

 

If the Bills try to build the offense around TT - then you need specific players and if he gets hurt it is nearly impossible to replace his athleticism so you would need to make a change.  If you install your system and look to make a change at QB - you are 1 year ahead in terms of guys already knowing what to do.

 

The other thing is Dennison does not nail TT in the pocket - look at how reams are rushing us - send your DE’s up the field to keep TT in the pocket.  Roll-outs are no where near as effective if the opposing Defense does not respect what you are doing from the pocket.  The Saints DE’ were not rushing the passer as setting the edges to keep TT in the pocket.  

 

In the end - Dennison gets some blame, but you need a true QB to run this system and that has never been TT.  He makes plays, but if you watch the all 22 or listen to the ex QBs in the booth (or yesterday an ex DB) - they keep repeating the same thing - he has to get the ball out.  They showed guys open on the broadcast video, but TT would pull the trigger at the 3 step or 5 step drop.  That is on the QB - the offense is designed to get the ball out quick and yet we have the longest snap to throw time in the NFL.  That is on your QB.

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

.The problem with getting guys who "buy in" as well as "fit their system" is that it's difficult enough to establish a team of talented guys in this salary cap/FA era.  Putting extra restrictions on it by tossing aside talent that "doesn't fit" is giving yourself and your team a big handicap.

 

Wade Phillips said it:  "I don't understand the people that say, 'Hey, this is our scheme and that guy can't play in it,' a guy that can play, and is a good player, but, 'He can't play in our scheme.' To me, there's something wrong with your scheme," Phillips said. "You adapt the scheme to what the players can do, not what you can think of."

 

 

I think this is correct for most positions - QB is a bit different.  The QB is the key to the entire offense and it would set back every other player; OL, RB, WR, TE - if you design an offense around TT, but plan to move on from him.  You could get some short term success, but it would impact the long term plans.  TT is such a unique player - his offensive design does not fit with anything else other QBs can do - that makes it that much more difficult to design around him.  You saw in preseason the difference in the offense when TT was out versus when TT started - the 2 offenses looked very different.

 

If Peterman was ready - I think they make the change - that is what they are looking for in a QB and what the offense is designed for.  Again I think it is a long term plan with TT as a place holder while they evaluate what they want as a QB.  I think if they could have gotten Hoyer this offseason- that would have been your starting QB with Peterman learning from the journeyman QB rather than TT.  This year was about planning and finding fits - everything else was gravy.

[MAJBobby]

I just want a Modern NFL offense. Is that too much to ask