NFL.com: Gregg Rosenthal's QB Index

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, 1ZAYDAY1 said:

You ask Von Miller who and his team would rather face... Tyrod or Brady? Tyrod or Roethlisberger? Tyrod or Rodgers? Tyrod or Brees? 

 

I dont even even know why I waste my time.... I want the Bills to have a QB that can lead this team to the playoffs year in and year out. Not rely on Andy Dalton.

 

I hate that everyone thinks he’s so great cause he can run! But what if he didn’t need to run? Make an audible, change the play, actually throw to open recievers, make proper reads....

 

Great he can run around, he can also get caught and force a 2nd & 25 

 

Duh!

[Thurman#1]

Rosenthal loves him some Tyrod. Always has.

[Luka]

The thing that really gets me about Tyrod is that, at times, he looks great. The 1st quarter of the Dolphins game he was on fire, on pace for a 300 yard game and then...
His biggest flaw is that he is unwilling to step up into the pocket or slide in the pocket. When things get hairy, he turns his back to his receivers and circles out of the pocket rather than stepping up or sliding over. Not only does that hurt him in the pass game but also his ability to run for big gains. If he steps up and he has man coverage and a running lane, that's a 10 - 20 yard rushing play rather than running backwards 10 yards before getting sacked or gaining 5-6 yards on a 10-20 yard run. Most teams play contain against him to keep the edges sealed and if he could just somehow convince himself to step up as that edge rush goes by... 

[26CornerBlitz]

QB INDEX

Ranking Playoffs' Most Trustworthy QBs

With only a few weeks left for the eight remaining quarterbacks, who can you trust to take his team to the promised land? Gregg Rosenthal ranks the last QBs standing for the rest of their playoff run.

 

Ranking the Final Eight.

[Teddy KGB]

On 1/4/2018 at 6:27 PM, Thurman#1 said:

Rosenthal loves him some Tyrod. Always has.

 

Was pretty funny when he listed him at 11 somehow a few weeks ago. 

 

Finishing at 18 is a reach.     

[transplantbillsfan]

13 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Was pretty funny when he listed him at 11 somehow a few weeks ago. 

 

Finishing at 18 is a reach.     

 

18 is about where he belongs give or take a few spots.

 

It's fine. Upgrade is in the works at OBD

 

Next guy needs to be a consistent Top 10er!

[26CornerBlitz]

 

12. TYROD TAYLOR, BUFFALO BILLS – 84.1 OVERALL GRADE

Excerpt from the PFF QB Annual: Taylor finished 2017 among the league’s most accurate passers under pressure. His 53.5 completion percentage was fifth among starters and his 79.4 passer rating was seventh, but the one area he struggled through in 2017, was taking sacks. Taylor converted pressure to sacks 23.3 percent of the time – the highest rate in the NFL.

[CountDorkula]

I believe it was 1 offensive touchdown in the 4th quarter of the last 8 games. When crunch time comes, Taylor was nowhere to be found. But you know twitter stats and stuff say he is equivalent to Drew Brees so obviously we don't need better. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by CountDorkula

[LeGOATski]

4 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

I believe it was 1 offensive touchdown in the 4th quarter of the last 8 games. When crunch time comes, Taylor was nowhere to be found. But you know twitter stats and stuff say he is equivalent to Drew Brees so obviously we don't need better. 

They say the opposite actually, lol. 

 

And I credit the 3rd down success to quality play design.

[Batman1876]

Tyrod is a hard QB to quantify. He makes plays with his legs but makes the fewest plays with his arm. He avoids pressure, except when he gets sacked.  he throws few ints but he also ends drives with too many behind the sticks throws.  He looks alright with QBR or other metrics but he led an offense that couldn't score against any quality opponents.  

[twoandfourteen]

So.... essentially the PFF rating system is telling us that Tyrod Taylor outperformed at least 20 other QBs this year? 

 

[reddogblitz]

2 hours ago, CountDorkula said:

I believe it was 1 offensive touchdown in the 4th quarter of the last 8 games. When crunch time comes, Taylor was nowhere to be found. But you know twitter stats and stuff say he is equivalent to Drew Brees so obviously we don't need better. 

 

Hotrod only played in 7 of those games and another one he was knocked out the game before the 4th started. Hotrod EVEN  gets credit for other guy's screw ups!   I wonder if Rico played a role in this?

 

Against Chargers, in the 4th quarter he threw for one TD and ran for another. http://www.buffalobills.com/schedules/game/2017/regular11

 

In the first 8 games he did it twice (almost).  We were down 7 vs the Bucs half way through the 4th, and the offense got 10 more points and the win.  Against the Panthers he hit Drop Zone in the hands on the goal line down 6 with less than :30 to play.  Since we now know Drop Zone can't catch a cold, I count that as a comeback with an asterisk.  It IS a team game after all. Everyone has to do their part.

Edited January 11, 2018 by reddogblitz

[Stank_Nasty]

20 minutes ago, twoandfourteen said:

So.... essentially the PFF rating system is telling us that Tyrod Taylor outperformed at least 20 other QBs this year? 

 

I've gone to bat for taylor quite a bit, but 12? yikes.... no way. geez.

[John from Riverside]

On 1/4/2018 at 3:20 PM, 1ZAYDAY1 said:

You ask Von Miller who he and his team would rather face... Tyrod or Brady? Tyrod or Roethlisberger? Tyrod or Rodgers? Tyrod or Brees? 

 

I dont even even know why I waste my time.... I want the Bills to have a QB that can lead this team to the playoffs year in and year out. Not rely on Andy Dalton.

 

I hate that everyone thinks he’s so great cause he can run! But what if he didn’t need to run? Make an audible, change the play, actually throw to open recievers, make proper reads....

 

Great he can run around, he can also get caught and force a 2nd & 25 

 

 

 

Is one of those guys available?

 

Lets get him!

[26CornerBlitz]

Bleacher Reports's 2017 QB Rankings: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2751014-nfl1000-ranking-the-top-quarterbacks-from-2017-season

 

22. Tyrod Taylor, Buffalo Bills

Accuracy: 16/25
Arm: 17/25
Under Pressure: 15/20
Decision-Making: 15/20
Position Value: 10/10
Overall Grade: 73/100

 

Russell Wilson's playing style drew criticism, and the same held true for Buffalo's quarterback to start the season. Tyrod Taylor was often effective at times in new offensive coordinator Rick Dennison's West Coast-based passing scheme, but the team still turned to Nathan Peterman midway through the year even as it was in playoff contention. The rookie struggled, forcing the team to go back to Taylor. Yes, he can be slow at times with his reads and often fails to anticipate routes, but his progression as a quarterback and his continued ability outside of the pocket is dangerous. In the right system, and with an organization that believes in him, Taylor can be a solid starter in this league. Matter of fact, he already is. And with him as the starter, the Bills have their first playoff berth since 1999.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[OldTimer1960]

20 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

Bleacher Reports's 2017 QB Rankings: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2751014-nfl1000-ranking-the-top-quarterbacks-from-2017-season

 

22. Tyrod Taylor, Buffalo Bills

Accuracy: 16/25
Arm: 17/25
Under Pressure: 15/20
Decision-Making: 15/20
Position Value: 10/10
Overall Grade: 73/100

 

Russell Wilson's playing style drew criticism, and the same held true for Buffalo's quarterback to start the season. Tyrod Taylor was often effective at times in new offensive coordinator Rick Dennison's West Coast-based passing scheme, but the team still turned to Nathan Peterman midway through the year even as it was in playoff contention. The rookie struggled, forcing the team to go back to Taylor. Yes, he can be slow at times with his reads and often fails to anticipate routes, but his progression as a quarterback and his continued ability outside of the pocket is dangerous. In the right system, and with an organization that believes in him, Taylor can be a solid starter in this league. Matter of fact, he already is. And with him as the starter, the Bills have their first playoff berth since 1999.

Oyy - that is RIDICULOUS.  I am not the biggest Wilson fan, but he is twice the passer that Taylor is (at least).

[FLFan]

21 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

Bleacher Reports's 2017 QB Rankings: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2751014-nfl1000-ranking-the-top-quarterbacks-from-2017-season

 

22. Tyrod Taylor, Buffalo Bills

Accuracy: 16/25
Arm: 17/25
Under Pressure: 15/20
Decision-Making: 15/20
Position Value: 10/10
Overall Grade: 73/100

 

Russell Wilson's playing style drew criticism, and the same held true for Buffalo's quarterback to start the season. Tyrod Taylor was often effective at times in new offensive coordinator Rick Dennison's West Coast-based passing scheme, but the team still turned to Nathan Peterman midway through the year even as it was in playoff contention. The rookie struggled, forcing the team to go back to Taylor. Yes, he can be slow at times with his reads and often fails to anticipate routes, but his progression as a quarterback and his continued ability outside of the pocket is dangerous. In the right system, and with an organization that believes in him, Taylor can be a solid starter in this league. Matter of fact, he already is. And with him as the starter, the Bills have their first playoff berth since 1999.

Well, if Bleecher Report said so, it must be true.  I have been a big Tyrod fan, even recognizing his limitations, but I am done. What he does well is simply not worth what he is, and always will be, bad at.  Time to move on.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 12/28/2017 at 2:48 PM, reddogblitz said:

 

We'll see.  I hope he's wrong.

 

I want to do what Seattle did.  They brought back the previous years starter, Tarvaris Jackson who played OK the 2 years before but not great.  They signed Matt Flynn.  They drafted Russell  Wilson.  They went with the best of the three.

 

Or the Vikings.  They had Teddy.  He got hurt they traded for Bradford.  Then they signed Case.  Any of their 3 QBs could start on most teams including ours.

 

Why do we want to put all our QB eggs in one basket?

 

This.   Nothing changes culture like winning.  The team knows, or ought to know, that capable or better QB play is critical to winning.

So go all in.

 

55 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Oyy - that is RIDICULOUS.  I am not the biggest Wilson fan, but he is twice the passer that Taylor is (at least).

 

Just for shucks and giggles, take a look at Russ Wilson's game logs his first 2 years as an NFL starter.

I'll wait.

 

Can you explain to me what you base the "twice the passer" thing on? 

Disclaimer: I suppose it must be spelled out that I'm not trying to make an argument pro-Taylor, just trying to understand what you see as 2x passing skills.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[SouthNYfan]

24 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This.   Nothing changes culture like winning.  The team knows, or ought to know, that capable or better QB play is critical to winning.

So go all in.

 

 

Just for shucks and giggles, take a look at Russ Wilson's game logs his first 2 years as an NFL starter.

I'll wait.

 

Can you explain to me what you base the "twice the passer" thing on?

 

 

Well he threw 72td-26int vs Tyrod 51td-16int (tyrod didn't even have 1td per game this season)

Wilson also threw for about 330+ more yards a season (or a little over 1000 more over the first three)

Wilson's numbers improved each of his first three Tyrod's have regressed each year

 

Wilson had 10 fourth qt comebacks with 15 total game winning drives over first three seasons

Tyrod has a total of 3 fourth qt comebacks and 5 game winning drives over his three seasons starting

 

Wilson also was thrown in as a rookie, tyrod had 4 seasons as a backup to learn

 

Comparing their seasons after 6 years in the league (Wilson) vs Tyrod (8 years, 3 starting 5 backup) is even more of a disparity

 

Tyrod threw 14td to 4 int and had 2800 yards

Wilson had 34td to 11 int, and had 4000 yards. His 34 td led the NFL (Wentz obviously would have if he didn't get hurt)

 

Their first 3 years as starters, Wilson was flat out better when it mattered, aka touchdowns and 4th quarter play.

Tyrod has regressed every year, while Wilson has improved.

 

The two aren't even in the same league.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

Well he threw 72td-26int vs Tyrod 51td-16int (tyrod didn't even have 1td per game this season)

Wilson also threw for about 330+ more yards a season (or a little over 1000 more over the first three)

Wilson's numbers improved each of his first three Tyrod's have regressed each year

 

Wilson had 10 fourth qt comebacks with 15 total game winning drives over first three seasons

Tyrod has a total of 3 fourth qt comebacks and 5 game winning drives over his three seasons starting

 

Wilson also was thrown in as a rookie, tyrod had 4 seasons as a backup to learn

 

Comparing their seasons after 6 years in the league (Wilson) vs Tyrod (8 years, 3 starting 5 backup) is even more of a disparity

 

Tyrod threw 14td to 4 int and had 2800 yards

Wilson had 34td to 11 int, and had 4000 yards. His 34 td led the NFL (Wentz obviously would have if he didn't get hurt)

 

Their first 3 years as starters, Wilson was flat out better when it mattered, aka touchdowns and 4th quarter play.

Tyrod has regressed every year, while Wilson has improved.

 

The two aren't even in the same league.

 

WTF, what time period are you talking about, 72 TD?

 

The question was first 2 years as a starter. 

 

I'm not interested in comparing the years one guy sat on the bench and making the laughable claim they should both have progressed to the same point.  You can't evaluate a guy as a passer while he's sitting on the bench, come on.

 

This past year was also arguably a SNAFU on offense, with Shady's YPA dropping off by 1 ypc etc, so let's not muddy the water. 

Not interested in comparing their rushing stats, since your claim is 2x the passer.

 

Not 2x the winner or whatever, 2x the passer.  300 yard games?  Multiple INT games?  YPA?  I don't know, whatever PASSING statistic you like.

 

Go

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[BadLandsMeanie]

I think Tyrod's ranking benefits from being on a run first team featuring Shady, and having a defense that didn't allow many points most of the time, and got a bunch of turnovers.

 

Put another way, he didn't have to pass that much and he didn't have to score that much. That helped a lot.

[Fan in Chicago]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This.   Nothing changes culture like winning.  The team knows, or ought to know, that capable or better QB play is critical to winning.

So go all in.

 

 

Thought i would ask - Considering the Bills made the playoffs and are, arguably, a team on the rise, shouldnt you be 'hopeful' again ?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Thought i would ask - Considering the Bills made the playoffs and are, arguably, a team on the rise, shouldnt you be 'hopeful' again ?

 

I am waiting upon some happenings.  We shall see, Zorn

 

12 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

I think Tyrod's ranking benefits from being on a run first team featuring Shady, and having a defense that didn't allow many points most of the time, and got a bunch of turnovers.

 

Put another way, he didn't have to pass that much and he didn't have to score that much. That helped a lot.

 

But the Bills are in the bottom half of the league on D, for allowing points?

 

I don't know what to say about Rosenthal's index.  I haven't cared enough to look under the hood and try to deconstruct why he made the choices he did.  At a guess, he's looking at some of the same parameters I used for my draft sort?  Any time a QB has passing games in the double digits and his team can't score aTD, it should raise eyebrows, not ratings.

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[BadLandsMeanie]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I am waiting upon some happenings.  We shall see, Zorn

 

 

But the Bills are in the bottom half of the league on D, for allowing points?

 

I don't know what to say about Rosenthal's index.  I haven't cared enough to look under the hood and try to deconstruct why he made the choices he did.  At a guess, he's looking at some of the same parameters I used for my draft sort?  Any time a QB has passing games in the double digits and his team can't score aTD, it should raise eyebrows, not ratings.

 

Well, I think the Bills are about the middle on points, maybe JUST under the halfway mark. 

But look at the games we got just HAMMERED by the Chargers (54) and Saints (47) which doesn't do the average any good. Then the Pats got 37 and for some reason the Jets got us for 34. 

 

So those 4 games we were finished because we couldn't score that many points. 

 

But the rest of the games the points against were manageable and we did pretty good, winning 9 of 12.

 

Put another way, if I have it right, the average points scored by teams per game in 2017 is 21.7

 

If opposing teams scored the average 21.7 points in each game, the Bills would have won 5 games this year, instead of 9.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

24 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Well, I think the Bills are about the middle on points, maybe JUST under the halfway mark. 

But look at the games we got just HAMMERED by the Chargers (54) and Saints (47) which doesn't do the average any good. Then the Pats got 37 and for some reason the Jets got us for 34. 

 

So those 4 games we were finished because we couldn't score that many points. 

 

But the rest of the games the points against were manageable and we did pretty good, winning 9 of 12.

 

Put another way, if I have it right, the average points scored by teams per game in 2017 is 21.7

 

If opposing teams scored the average 21.7 points in each game, the Bills would have won 5 games this year, instead of 9.

 

 

I dunno, Meanie, color me skeptical of this argument.  The Bills did indeed have a stout D, some of the time. 

But I'm thinking most of the teams in our "Team Defense" neighborhood of "meh" are in the same boat - some good games, bunch of average games, 2-6 games where they got blown out. 

 

I don't think you can argue that Taylor benefited from defense above average in not having to score as many points as the other QB, when the team D falls below average on points

(18/32)

[BadLandsMeanie]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I dunno, Meanie, color me skeptical of this argument.  The Bills did indeed have a stout D, some of the time. 

But I'm thinking most of the teams in our "Team Defense" neighborhood of "meh" are in the same boat - some good games, bunch of average games, 2-6 games where they got blown out. 

 

I don't think you can argue that Taylor benefited from defense above average in not having to score as many points as the other QB, when the team D falls below average on points

(18/32)

I'll try it this way then

 

21.7 is average. The Bills allowed 22.4. So they are within .7 of a point of smack dab average of points allowed.

 

The Bills offensive scoring ranks 22nd in the league at 18.9 points a game.  Which maybe doesn't help me a whole lot until you look at the rushing which was 6th overall in yardage. And passing we were 31st.

 

So Tyrod lead a run first team to the 31st best total passing yards. Which somehow makes him a solid QB.

 

But maybe stats aren't my bag. Let me ask you this. When we got behind in a game and you knew we had to come out with a passing attack to catch up and win on time, didn't you know we were going to lose? Didn't you know it was over?

 

 

 

 

[MJS]

The media love affair continues. I just don't get it.

 

Never mind that he ranks near the bottom of the league in TD's and yards every single year.

40 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I dunno, Meanie, color me skeptical of this argument.  The Bills did indeed have a stout D, some of the time. 

But I'm thinking most of the teams in our "Team Defense" neighborhood of "meh" are in the same boat - some good games, bunch of average games, 2-6 games where they got blown out. 

 

I don't think you can argue that Taylor benefited from defense above average in not having to score as many points as the other QB, when the team D falls below average on points

(18/32)

 

Taylor is average some of the time, and below average most of the time. And a few games where he is terrible.

[JinxedBill1]

24 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

I'll try it this way then

 

21.7 is average. The Bills allowed 22.4. So they are within .7 of a point of smack dab average of points allowed.

 

The Bills offensive scoring ranks 22nd in the league at 18.9 points a game.  Which maybe doesn't help me a whole lot until you look at the rushing which was 6th overall in yardage. And passing we were 31st.

 

So Tyrod lead a run first team to the 31st best total passing yards. Which somehow makes him a solid QB.

 

But maybe stats aren't my bag. Let me ask you this. When we got behind in a game and you knew we had to come out with a passing attack to catch up and win on time, didn't you know we were going to lose? Didn't you know it was over?

 

 

 

 

Well said.  

[SouthNYfan]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

WTF, what time period are you talking about, 72 TD?

 

The question was first 2 years as a starter. 

 

I'm not interested in comparing the years one guy sat on the bench and making the laughable claim they should both have progressed to the same point.  You can't evaluate a guy as a passer while he's sitting on the bench, come on.

 

This past year was also arguably a SNAFU on offense, with Shady's YPA dropping off by 1 ypc etc, so let's not muddy the water. 

Not interested in comparing their rushing stats, since your claim is 2x the passer.

 

Not 2x the winner or whatever, 2x the passer.  300 yard games?  Multiple INT games?  YPA?  I don't know, whatever PASSING statistic you like.

 

Go

 

 

 

 

I went for first 3 seasons as a starter, not two, since you know, Tyrod has been a starter for 3 seasons.

Wilson's stats improved slightly each season, which, combined with his get/4q comebacks and crunchtime play, gave his coaches enough confidence to keep letting him throw more.

Your can't just say last year was a snafu .

Tyrod's numbers declined each season, it's a the season downward trend.

That's why there is no faith.

 

 

When can we use his 5 seasons on the bench in an argument?

Garoppolo had three behind Brady, came in ready to rock.

Aaron Rodgers rode the bench then came in to start.

Tyrod was behind flacco. Obv he's not in favre or Brady's category to learn from, but he isn't trash either.

 

I'm pretty sure I included passing stats, such as TDs and yards, but Wilson had better yards per game, yards average per attempt, better comp%

The only metric tyrod won in that I can see was int/int%

You obviously won't throw many ints if you won't pull the trigger unless it's a perfect window.

[Pbomb]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I dunno, Meanie, color me skeptical of this argument.  The Bills did indeed have a stout D, some of the time. 

But I'm thinking most of the teams in our "Team Defense" neighborhood of "meh" are in the same boat - some good games, bunch of average games, 2-6 games where they got blown out. 

 

I don't think you can argue that Taylor benefited from defense above average in not having to score as many points as the other QB, when the team D falls below average on points

(18/32)

The defense is the reason we made the playoffs, like meanie said they gave up almost half their points in those 4 games. How many of those wins did we have 3 or 4 turnovers also. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

I'll try it this way then

 

21.7 is average. The Bills allowed 22.4. So they are within .7 of a point of smack dab average of points allowed.

 

The Bills offensive scoring ranks 22nd in the league at 18.9 points a game.  Which maybe doesn't help me a whole lot until you look at the rushing which was 6th overall in yardage. And passing we were 31st.

 

So Tyrod lead a run first team to the 31st best total passing yards. Which somehow makes him a solid QB.

 

But maybe stats aren't my bag. Let me ask you this. When we got behind in a game and you knew we had to come out with a passing attack to catch up and win on time, didn't you know we were going to lose? Didn't you know it was over?

 

Meanie, I can't keep up here. I didn't think this was an argument about whether or not QB was a solid QB, or a QB who could lead a team to victory from behind.

 

I thought you were arguing that Tyrod had to pass less than other QB because we have great D, to which I say "um...' and the discussion went something like this:

 

Meanie: Bills have great D

Hapless: Bills have mediocre D, in the bottom of the NFL (18th) on points

Meanie: But we had better D than the points showed, it's just we got blown out in 4 games and that skews the total

Hapless: That's probably true of other teams in our statistical neighborhood o' "meh", blown out in 2-6 games, leaves us in the same place.  Not sold on "great D but"...line.

Meanie: OK, but Tyrod sucked sucked sucked as a passer because we're 31st and he can't lead our team to a win from behind

Hapless: WTF are we talking about anyway?

 

I don't want to get into an argument about whether or not Tyrod is a great QB or even a good QB or an adequate QB.  Nope, not going there.

I just don't think you can construct an argument that Tyrod looks like a better QB than he is to Greg Rosenthal because he really didn't have too pass much 'cuz great D. 

D was meh.  Good sometimes, bad sometimes, Meh sometimes, which is true of about half the teams in Mr Mediocre's Neighborhood in Defensive Stats.

 

You certainly can't look at the pass stats and say Tyrod is a good passer, but one could construct a similar argument to your D one using the run stats, and say "maybe Tyrod looks like a better passer than he is because he didn't have to pass too much because run game!' which is 1) true 2) more convincing as an argument since the Bills genuinely have a top run game .  But then one has to  look at the other teams in the run game neighborhood - Vikings, Rams, Chiefs, Saints, Panthers, and Eagles.  Maybe their QB look better than they are because their strong run game kept them from having to pass so much, which is an interesting question to look at since two of those teams are led by QB some would have us lust for (Keenum and Smith) and two by top-1st-round QB some use as an argument why trading the entire draft board this year and next is not Too Much.

 

As I said up front, I don't know why Rosenthal reached his conclusion on QB.  I wasn't enthused enough to look under the hood at his methodology.  I think Tyrod is a better QB than it showed this year.  I think he's a better QB than most people here think, because most QB "change face" quite a bit depending on their OC and supporting cast.  I think Keenum and Smith would look surprisingly Tyrod-like in Dennison's scheme throwing to our WR, and Goff and Wentz wouldn't look near as shiny, but that's just my opinion.

 

This is not to be confused with an argument saying 1) Rosenthal's ranking is right 2) Tyrod is a good QB.  I think he is what it is at this time, and he's had his shot, move on.

But I could also see an argument that he's a lot closer to Keenum and Smith than most people think, and if Smith or Smith-like is the QB within our grasp as a FA, we could do worse than draft the QB we like and keep Tyrod as a vet backup.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, SouthNYfan said:

I went for first 3 seasons as a starter, not two, since you know, Tyrod has been a starter for 3 seasons.

 

He had the same OC for those three seasons (in fact until now).  If you don't want to confound your data with the impact of an OC change, which is well known to affect QB for good and for bad,  you have to consider that somehow.

 

1 hour ago, SouthNYfan said:

Wilson's stats improved slightly each season, which, combined with his get/4q comebacks and crunchtime play, gave his coaches enough confidence to keep letting him throw more.

Your can't just say last year was a snafu .

 

Sure I can, watch me!  If it was just Tyrod's stats that dropped, I shouldn't, but McCoy's YPC dropped precipitously.  Our offense dropped off in every category.  11th (9th or 10th w/out EJ/Cardale last game) to 22nd.  Same QB.  Do you really want to make an argument this year's offense wasn't a SNAFU?  OK, GO!

 

Look, you came out saying that Wilson is 2x the passer Tyrod is.  Looking at the non-confounded data set for their first 2 years as starter, I don't think you can support that.  That's all.  Now you want to throw in all kinds of stuff that has to do with all kinds of things other than the QB's passing skill - 4th Q comebacks and "crunchtime play" also reflect the OC's comeback and crunchtime play calling, how clutch the other guys on the team are, etc etc.  Completely different argument - now you're saying Tyrod hasn't got the "IT" factor to be "the Man", which is one of those "I know what I see because I see it" things.  (To understand what I'm saying about 4th QB comebacks depending upon the cast and OC, ask yourself this: Does the Miracle in Minnesota happen if Keenum is throwing to Zay Jones or Thompson with Roman sending in late plays?  How many TD does Big Ben throw last Sunday without Antonio Brown's maniac catching ability and with Dennison's lack of play calling adjustments?)

 

I don't think you can support the argument that Wilson is 2x the passer Taylor is, based on their early performance as passers, using any accepted passing statistic.  That's all.  By the third year in the same system, Wilson was beginning to trend upward, and that trend has continued.  Would Tyrod have continued to trend upward if he stayed in the same system with Lynn or similar OC?  We'll never know.

 

If you want to make a generalized argument that Tyrod is not a QB to have faith in for the future, I'm out of here; I don't think he is myself.  I just think he gets "dumped on" beyond reason here.  He's not as bad as people would like to believe, and he reflects his supporting cast and surroundings more than you think.  Russ Wilson did NOT start out as a great passer.  He's improving, yes, but it's been the process of years.

 

[Teddy KGB]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He had the same OC for those three seasons (in fact until now).  If you don't want to confound your data with the impact of an OC change, which is well known to affect QB for good and for bad,  you have to consider that somehow.

 

 

Sure I can, watch me!  If it was just Tyrod's stats that dropped, I shouldn't, but McCoy's YPC dropped precipitously.  Our offense dropped off in every category.  11th (9th or 10th w/out EJ/Cardale last game) to 22nd.  Same QB.  Do you really want to make an argument this year's offense wasn't a SNAFU?  OK, GO!

 

Look, you came out saying that Wilson is 2x the passer Tyrod is.  Looking at the non-confounded data set for their first 2 years as starter, I don't think you can support that.  That's all.  Now you want to throw in all kinds of stuff that has to do with all kinds of things other than the QB's passing skill - 4th Q comebacks and "crunchtime play" also reflect the OC's comeback and crunchtime play calling, how clutch the other guys on the team are, etc etc.  Completely different argument - now you're saying Tyrod hasn't got the "IT" factor to be "the Man", which is one of those "I know what I see because I see it" things.  (To understand what I'm saying about 4th QB comebacks depending upon the cast and OC, ask yourself this: Does the Miracle in Minnesota happen if Keenum is throwing to Zay Jones or Thompson with Roman sending in late plays?  How many TD does Big Ben throw last Sunday without Antonio Brown's maniac catching ability and with Dennison's lack of play calling adjustments?)

 

I don't think you can support the argument that Wilson is 2x the passer Taylor is, based on their early performance as passers, using any accepted passing statistic.  That's all.  By the third year in the same system, Wilson was beginning to trend upward, and that trend has continued.  Would Tyrod have continued to trend upward if he stayed in the same system with Lynn or similar OC?  We'll never know.

 

If you want to make a generalized argument that Tyrod is not a QB to have faith in for the future, I'm out of here; I don't think he is myself.  I just think he gets "dumped on" beyond reason here.  He's not as bad as people would like to believe, and he reflects his supporting cast and surroundings more than you think.  Russ Wilson did NOT start out as a great passer.  He's improving, yes, but it's been the process of years.

 

 

31st ranked passing offense.      He’s way worse than people think.   

[SouthNYfan]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He had the same OC for those three seasons (in fact until now).  If you don't want to confound your data with the impact of an OC change, which is well known to affect QB for good and for bad,  you have to consider that somehow.

 

 

Sure I can, watch me!  If it was just Tyrod's stats that dropped, I shouldn't, but McCoy's YPC dropped precipitously.  Our offense dropped off in every category.  11th (9th or 10th w/out EJ/Cardale last game) to 22nd.  Same QB.  Do you really want to make an argument this year's offense wasn't a SNAFU?  OK, GO!

 

Look, you came out saying that Wilson is 2x the passer Tyrod is.  Looking at the non-confounded data set for their first 2 years as starter, I don't think you can support that.  That's all.  Now you want to throw in all kinds of stuff that has to do with all kinds of things other than the QB's passing skill - 4th Q comebacks and "crunchtime play" also reflect the OC's comeback and crunchtime play calling, how clutch the other guys on the team are, etc etc.  Completely different argument - now you're saying Tyrod hasn't got the "IT" factor to be "the Man", which is one of those "I know what I see because I see it" things.  (To understand what I'm saying about 4th QB comebacks depending upon the cast and OC, ask yourself this: Does the Miracle in Minnesota happen if Keenum is throwing to Zay Jones or Thompson with Roman sending in late plays?  How many TD does Big Ben throw last Sunday without Antonio Brown's maniac catching ability and with Dennison's lack of play calling adjustments?)

 

I don't think you can support the argument that Wilson is 2x the passer Taylor is, based on their early performance as passers, using any accepted passing statistic.  That's all.  By the third year in the same system, Wilson was beginning to trend upward, and that trend has continued.  Would Tyrod have continued to trend upward if he stayed in the same system with Lynn or similar OC?  We'll never know.

 

If you want to make a generalized argument that Tyrod is not a QB to have faith in for the future, I'm out of here; I don't think he is myself.  I just think he gets "dumped on" beyond reason here.  He's not as bad as people would like to believe, and he reflects his supporting cast and surroundings more than you think.  Russ Wilson did NOT start out as a great passer.  He's improving, yes, but it's been the process of years.

 

 

Or maybe our offense wasn't a snafu this year.

McCoy's average dropped because teams don't fear tyrod at all and attack McCoy.

Look i can make assumptions too.

 

Touchdowns, yards, yards per attempt, comp%, last I checked, are all "accepted passing statistics"

All of which Wilson beat tyrod in.

 

11 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

31st ranked passing offense.      He’s way worse than people think.   

 

Yep.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, SouthNYfan said:

Touchdowns, yards, yards per attempt, comp%, last I checked, are all "accepted passing statistics"

All of which Wilson beat tyrod in.

 

Those are not only accepted passing statistics, several of them are important statistics.

Was Wilson 2x better in any of them?

 

I don't object to the premise that Wilson - or Alex Smith for that matter - is a significantly better QB than Tyrod - today.

 

I do object to much of the hyperbole around Taylor.

 

I think the concept that Wilson showed 2x better passer is out of whack, especially if you look at their 1st 2 years as starters.  Keep in mind that many of the best QB in the business have not looked "all that" in their first years.  Took Alex Smith something like 4, maybe 5, to look competent.

 

That is all.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[SouthNYfan]

51 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Those are not only accepted passing statistics, several of them are important statistics.

Was Wilson 2x better in any of them?

 

I don't object to the premise that Wilson - or Alex Smith for that matter - is a significantly better QB than Tyrod - today.

 

I do object to much of the hyperbole around Taylor.

 

I think the concept that Wilson showed 2x better passer is out of whack, especially if you look at their 1st 2 years as starters.  Keep in mind that many of the best QB in the business have not looked "all that" in their first years.  Took Alex Smith something like 4, maybe 5, to look competent.

 

That is all.

 

 

 

Fair.

I wasn't the original one saying he was 2x better.

I actually forgot that was the initial start of the debate.

 

I will say that I feel Wilson was better his first two years as a starter than tyrod, and showed willingness to throw the ball into tight areas when needed, vs holding the ball and being tentative.

 

I think that Russell being a rookie and sophomore, vs Tyrod who had 5 years as a backup to adjust to NFL playbooks, with film and practices to learn from, should be in Tyrod's favor, but instead Wilson was just flat out better, no not 2x, but better with signs of a higher ceiling.

 

Tyrod, by midway through his second season starting (his 7th in the NFL), had shown very little in terms of progress, with very little thoughts about how high his ceiling would be, and more thoughts of "well. This is what we have. He is what he is. Can we win with this?"

 

Sure.

You can win 40%-50% of your games.

You can be a fringe playoff team.

In the long run that's not good enough.

 

Is tyrod terrible?

No.

 

Is he below average?

Yep.

 

I don't really dislike the guy, I don't love him either.

If he goes somewhere else and thrives, I'll eat my words.

I'm willing to assert that he won't be much better anywhere else, if at all.

[transplantbillsfan]

10 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

31st ranked passing offense.      He’s way worse than people think.   

 

Wow... deja vu... I think I've read this exact post from you (wait, how many posts are you up to now under this 4th username in less than a year) 1,301 times now.

 

Do you have early onset Alzheimer's or do you actually think it's pleasurable to repeat the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and...

 

 

Isn't this the very definition of a crusade and isn't this a violation of the CoC here at TBD?

[twoandfourteen]

On 1/16/2018 at 10:10 PM, 26CornerBlitz said:

Bleacher Reports's 2017 QB Rankings: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2751014-nfl1000-ranking-the-top-quarterbacks-from-2017-season

 

22. Tyrod Taylor, Buffalo Bills

Accuracy: 16/25
Arm: 17/25
Under Pressure: 15/20
Decision-Making: 15/20
Position Value: 10/10
Overall Grade: 73/100

 

Russell Wilson's playing style drew criticism is an example of a true franchise QB, and the same held true for Buffalo's quarterback to start the season doesn't belong in the same universe as Russell Wilson. Tyrod Taylor was often effective barely functional at times in new offensive coordinator Rick Dennison's West Coast-based passing scheme, but and the team still turned to had no choice but to try Nathan Peterman midway through the year even as it was in playoff contention because the AFC was a raging dumpster fire of terrible football teams. The rookie struggled, forcing the team to go back to Taylor. Yes, he can be is slow at times all of the time with his reads and often fails to anticipate routes throw for over 150 yards or score more than three points in a game, but his progression as a kick returner pretending to play quarterback and his continued ability outside of the pocket is dangerous almost comically overrated. In the right system that awards 6 points for FGs and 3 points for punts, and with an organization that believes in him can convince the opponent to only play with 7 guys on defense, Taylor can be a solid starter in this league the CFL. Matter of fact, he already is best suited to be a backup somewhere. And with him as the starter Andy Dalton making the biggest throw of Tyrod Taylor's career, the Bills have their first playoff berth since 1999.

 

Fixed it. 

 

No need to thank me. 

 

[Cruiserplayer]

Where did the deep ball go? It was great his first year but disappeared after week 2 of 2016.