Blokestradamus Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 20 sacks in 3 years at Clemson. He was a role player behind Vic Beasley for the first two seasons. One-year starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsBytheBay Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 He was noticeably good against the run on Sunday; I'd like to see him get more opportunities to rush the passer in the upcoming weeks. I feel like a lot of teams will go to the quick passing game because of our line. We may not see the stats we want, but if we can continue to force teams to be one dimensional: stop the run, terrorize the QB on 7 step drops.... I consider that a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I feel like a lot of teams will go to the quick passing game because of our line. We may not see the stats we want, but if we can continue to force teams to be one dimensional: stop the run, terrorize the QB on 7 step drops.... I consider that a win. Possibly, but my problem was more that McCown did, in fact, have time when he chose to hold the ball longer. Now, that could certainly change...I'd like to think that this front 4 can generate pressure somewhat reliably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I just don't see explosion from Shaq. Strength and energy, but not explosion. I guess it just isn't very productive to view him under the lens of his draft position at this point. He seems like he can be a valuable piece of the defense, but not an elite player. His ceiling is probably Shaun Ellis, not Melvin Ingram or Terrell Suggs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffAlone Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 He was a role player behind Vic Beasley for the first two seasons. One-year starter. I understand. Doesn't make his skill set any different...IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I just don't see explosion from Shaq. Strength and energy, but not explosion. I guess it just isn't very productive to view him under the lens of his draft position at this point. He seems like he can be a valuable piece of the defense, but not an elite player. His ceiling is probably Shaun Ellis, not Melvin Ingram or Terrell Suggs. This is realistically still his first season of games against pros... let him figure it out as he learns a new D... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffaloboyinATL Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 and I see sex and a lot of pressure coming from our insides this week I didn't think this was a home game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I just don't see explosion from Shaq. Strength and energy, but not explosion. I guess it just isn't very productive to view him under the lens of his draft position at this point. He seems like he can be a valuable piece of the defense, but not an elite player. His ceiling is probably Shaun Ellis, not Melvin Ingram or Terrell Suggs.he is going to be like Chris Kelsey. This defenselive line right now reminds me of the 09-14 Cincinnati team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I just don't see explosion from Shaq. Strength and energy, but not explosion. I guess it just isn't very productive to view him under the lens of his draft position at this point. He seems like he can be a valuable piece of the defense, but not an elite player. His ceiling is probably Shaun Ellis, not Melvin Ingram or Terrell Suggs. You accurately described who he is as a player. He is not explosive, and never was, even in college. He is a well rounded DE who is adept at playing both the run and putting decent pressure on the qb. He is a solid DE who will never be a great pass rusher. I'll gladly embrace what he is as a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) Said it before, but 4-3 DE's don't get drafted in round 1 for their run defense. It's a passing league. Anyone who says he wasn't hyped as a pass rusher is probably trying to re-set the bar a little lower for better feels about his slow start. Well that bar was set when he was coming out of Clemson. No one envisioned him being a big time sack artist. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/shaq-lawson?id=2555252 Yet, no one really had him with a grade lower than late first, maybe early second at worst case scenario. I'm more inclined to take NFL evaluators and those alike than fans. Edited September 13, 2017 by BillsFan17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 Ability/skill. I didn't check to compare their 40 times. Think I made the point pretty clear about different skill levels. Shaq has some clear deficiencies as a pass rusher........the first and most debilitating to his pass rush game is a terrible first step. I'm not saying he could never have a 10 sack season...........but those are A LOT harder to string together than most people seem to understand here...........and what YOU are proposing.......that he could put up healthy Justin Houston numbers.......a guy who once had over 20 sacks.........that's a REAL reach. All you had to say was "slow first step / poor reflexes." And having the ability to determine that from a player after one NFL game is quite impressive. Hopefully you get paid well for this talent. Having a pleasant or non-combative conversation with you is like pulling teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 You accurately described who he is as a player. He is not explosive, and never was, even in college. He is a well rounded DE who is adept at playing both the run and putting decent pressure on the qb. He is a solid DE who will never be a great pass rusher. I'll gladly embrace what he is as a player. If Lawson never becomes a freak as a pass rusher.....but was always a well rounded player during his career that didnt give up huge run plays and got pressures....he is worth the pick. We have seen players drafted for their "freak pass rushing" bust in the first round. I think people get too wrapped up in comparing him to the young in his prime Mario Williams....that player was drafted number 1 overall and considered one of the best pass rushing DE's in the league at one point....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 All you had to say was "slow first step / poor reflexes." And having the ability to determine that from a player after one NFL game is quite impressive. Hopefully you get paid well for this talent. Having a pleasant or non-combative conversation with you is like pulling teeth. To be fair to Badol - and I disagree with him on Shaq - he has felt this way since before we drafted him based on his college performances. We have an agreed metric of 8 sacks per year as a gauge for whether he was worth the 19th pick or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) You accurately described who he is as a player. He is not explosive, and never was, even in college. He is a well rounded DE who is adept at playing both the run and putting decent pressure on the qb. He is a solid DE who will never be a great pass rusher. I'll gladly embrace what he is as a player. He led college football in tackles for loss in 2015 and was second in the nation in sacks. Edited September 13, 2017 by Wayne Arnold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 If Lawson never becomes a freak as a pass rusher.....but was always a well rounded player during his career that didnt give up huge run plays and got pressures....he is worth the pick. We have seen players drafted for their "freak pass rushing" bust in the first round. I think people get too wrapped up in comparing him to the young in his prime Mario Williams....that player was drafted number 1 overall and considered one of the best pass rushing DE's in the league at one point....... This is all right John. But Shaq needs to be an effective pass rusher even if not a freak one. If he bounces around the 6-12 sacks a year averaging out around 8 or 9 a year over the remainder of his contract he was worth the pick. If 6 sacks a year is the high water mark then it wasn't the wisest use of a 1st round pick even if he is a beast in the run game and racks up the TFLs. That is just the modern NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 This is all right John. But Shaq needs to be an effective pass rusher even if not a freak one. If he bounces around the 6-12 sacks a year averaging out around 8 or 9 a year over the remainder of his contract he was worth the pick. If 6 sacks a year is the high water mark then it wasn't the wisest use of a 1st round pick even if he is a beast in the run game and racks up the TFLs. That is just the modern NFL. Gunner....I think we have to give him the season before we start worrying about this He looked great in camp.....I really didnt think he palyed that badly in game 1....this essentially is his rookie season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Gunner....I think we have to give him the season before we start worrying about this He looked great in camp.....I really didnt think he palyed that badly in game 1....this essentially is his rookie season I agree with you. I am a huge Shaq fan. But I do think we have to get pass rush numbers to say "good first round pick". You might end up saying "good player for us but better guys went around him that year" otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Gunner....I think we have to give him the season before we start worrying about this He looked great in camp.....I really didnt think he palyed that badly in game 1....this essentially is his rookie season You were one of the guys hopeful that after his surgery he would be more of an impact player. He still looks the part of a sluggish, powerful DE who will depend upon the rest of comrades to get the QB. Hughes is good but not good enough to produce with the amount of attention he is getting. If you are playing Shaq at one end you better have Watt or Miller on the other side. He could improve but he won't ever bend around a tackle. 5-6 sacks is about where he should end up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 You were one of the guys hopeful that after his surgery he would be more of an impact player. He still looks the part of a sluggish, powerful DE who will depend upon the rest of comrades to get the QB. Hughes is good but not good enough to produce with the amount of attention he is getting. If you are playing Shaq at one end you better have Watt or Miller on the other side. He could improve but he won't ever bend around a tackle. 5-6 sacks is about where he should end up. Its......one.....game I agree with you. I am a huge Shaq fan. But I do think we have to get pass rush numbers to say "good first round pick". You might end up saying "good player for us but better guys went around him that year" otherwise. In all honesty Im not worried about this right now....sacks come in bunches for these guys and by the end of the season I think he will have a respectable total.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianFan Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) Great find Wayne. Thanks for the post! I think this is fitting in with the expectation that he would do well in this 4-3 D. Edited September 13, 2017 by CanadianFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Well, he's definitely no Paxton Lynch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 Here's Shaq being "sluggish" and showing no explosion. What a bum. https://twitter.com/Cover_1_/status/907969281371131904 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I agree with you. I am a huge Shaq fan. But I do think we have to get pass rush numbers to say "good first round pick". You might end up saying "good player for us but better guys went around him that year" otherwise. Let's put it this way: If Shaq doesn't become a 7-8 sack per year guy by the end of next season, his fifth year option will be declined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I agree with you. I am a huge Shaq fan. But I do think we have to get pass rush numbers to say "good first round pick". You might end up saying "good player for us but better guys went around him that year" otherwise. The sack totals are not always reflective of effectiveness. If he is putting consistent pressure on the qb and he is containing the play on his side then he is doing his job. The failure rate for first round picks is high. Getting a good and responsible player is not something to fret over. He is not going to be an elite pass rusher but that doesn't mean that he won't be an effective player. I consider him to be a good draft selection with no regrets over the pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 The sack totals are not always reflective of effectiveness. If he is putting consistent pressure on the qb and he is containing the play on his side then he is doing his job. The failure rate for first round picks is high. Getting a good and responsible player is not something to fret over. He is not going to be an elite pass rusher but that doesn't mean that he won't be an effective player. I consider him to be a good draft selection with no regrets over the pick. Honestly sometimes I'd rather a 1st round pick turn out to be solid instead of elite. If every 1st round turns out elite you can't pay them all. Nothing wrong with having a couple role players with medium salaries. Kind of weird thinking but that's how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Here's Shaq being "sluggish" and showing no explosion. What a bum. https://twitter.com/Cover_1_/status/907969281371131904 He doesn't demonstrate explosion on that play, he demonstrates strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 He doesn't demonstrate explosion on that play, he demonstrates strength. Explosion and strength is not mutually exclusive. If bursting into the backfield before the running back can reach the line of scrimmage isn't 'explosion' then we have entirely different definitions of the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Honestly sometimes I'd rather a 1st round pick turn out to be solid instead of elite. If every 1st round turns out elite you can't pay them all. Nothing wrong with having a couple role players with medium salaries. Kind of weird thinking but that's how I see it.[/n] Don't apologize for your weird line of reasoning! Your thinking may be weird to some but to me you are demonstrating your adroitness. You bring up a good point that hits at the core of what differentiates successful franchises from mediocre franchises in the cap system. It is the matching of salaries to talent. Smart organizations know how much to play players relative to their talent and they know how to balance out the roster from a cap standpoint. It's very complicated and tricky. The best way to manage in this financial system is having a good qb. By taking care of that position you can overcome your position deficiencies which all teams have to contend with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Explosion and strength is not mutually exclusive. If bursting into the backfield before the running back can reach the line of scrimmage isn't 'explosion' then we have entirely different definitions of the word. He doesn't "burst." He pushes his blocker over backwards and then falls over that blocker into the backfield. I'm not saying it wasn't a great play - it was. But it's not a play that demonstrates any kind of elite passrushing skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 He doesn't "burst." He pushes his blocker over backwards and then falls over that blocker into the backfield. I'm not saying it wasn't a great play - it was. But it's not a play that demonstrates any kind of elite passrushing skills. You have no idea what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 You have no idea what you're talking about. You're the poster child for ill-informed takes, Wayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Is it too early to begin running him out of town? I do so love a good tar and feathering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 He doesn't "burst." He pushes his blocker over backwards and then falls over that blocker into the backfield. I'm not saying it wasn't a great play - it was. But it's not a play that demonstrates any kind of elite passrushing skills. Just curious....do you know what power to speed conversion is as it applies to a DE's pass rush technique? And im not trying to embarris you.......I just want to understand your take Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Just curious....do you know what power to speed conversion is as it applies to a DE's pass rush technique? And im not trying to embarris you.......I just want to understand your take I do, but how is that relevant to describing the play depicted in that video clip? He pushes his man and then falls on top of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 I do, but how is that relevant to describing the play depicted in that video clip? He pushes his man and then falls on top of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 At his floor he is a good run defender average to below average pass rusher. Im fine with him playing first and second down as essentialy a rookie. Sacks are flashy but developing an everydown DE is hard to find too. I think by mid season he earns those passing down reps. He makes a few plays on first and second down on the qb he earns the money third and long. Right now loarax rushing is smart becauae he is a better pass rusher at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I do, but how is that relevant to describing the play depicted in that video clip? He pushes his man and then falls on top of him. Im not really talking about that specific play in particular to Shaq...just his overall play You dont get into the backfield like Shaq does if you dont have the power to speed ratio.......lets keep in mind here that he was hurt last year...this is really his first true rookie season. Gotta give him some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 Im not really talking about that specific play in particular to Shaq...just his overall play You dont get into the backfield like Shaq does if you dont have the power to speed ratio.......lets keep in mind here that he was hurt last year...this is really his first true rookie season. Gotta give him some time. Coach Tuesday thinks defensive linemen speed past OLinemen untouched like a cornerback blitz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Coach Tuesday thinks defensive linemen speed past OLinemen untouched like a cornerback blitz. That is Jerry Hughes game Shaq Lawson is never going to be Jerry...their games are different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I'm still waiting for the definitive answer to the burning question, "Is Stevie Johnson a #1 Receiver?" And you expect me to weigh in on Shaw Lawson already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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