This is not a rebuild, folks...

[teef]

What's in the past is past and can not be changed. What's in the future can be changed if you go about it the right way.

 

This is related to the post -

The other day Barry Trotz told the Caps - the past, lets play for today. Since then the Caps have dominated with the same talent that was getting beaten by the Pens.

exactly. it's time for this entire organization to move forward.

[Success]

What's exciting about this season is that we have no idea how good McD is. I mean, for all we know, he could be the league's next great coach.

 

After learning just how disorganized things were under Rex, even a decent coach might be all this team needs.

[row_33]

what happened for the last 17 years has no bearing on this upcoming season. if that's what you were implying.

 

Of course the 17 has no direct impact on the team.

 

On our minds and souls and livers and relationships with significant others it has impact, with promises to all of those things that year 18 will be diff.

[teef]

 

Of course the 17 has no direct impact on the team.

 

On our minds and souls and livers and relationships with significant others it has impact, with promises to all of those things that year 18 will be diff.

i can't argue with you on the second line.

[BringBackOrton]

 

So the best response you have is to repeat that the HC and GM are in first-year roles?

 

How many games did Gilmore win for us? Who are the other five players you reference? Woods? Hurt all the time. Gillislie? Backup RB. Brown? Did you watch the Pittsburgh game?

 

We'll see who is closer to being right.

How many games did Tyrod, Dareus, Kyle, McCoy, Watkins and Darby win us?

 

Oh. The same amount as Gilmore and Woods. Guess we don't need any of them either.

[Wayne Arnold]

 

 

We did lose like.. a ton of players... and needed upgrades all over the place. The key is structuring contracts better if you want to get comp picks (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/02/13/some-teams-are-using-option-years-to-enhance-compensatory-draft-picks/).

 

Needed: Kicker, backup QB, WR2, WR3, TE2, FB1, CB1, CB3, DE3/4, WLB, FS, SS, RT

 

Several of those players were released - Graham, Robey-Coleman, A-will from their contracts because of cost/performance and don't count in a comp-pick situation. Couple those 3 with the loss of gilmore, and we have a ton of holes in the secondary.

 

If we waited to sign replacements, we're left with many of the players we released/let walk.... See below

 

Aaron Williams Corey Graham Dan Carpenter Marcus Easley Percy Harvin Corbin Bryant Reggie Bush Jerome Felton Leger Douzable James Ihedigbo Corey White Brandon Spikes Sergio Brown Scott Crichton IK Enemkpali Dri Archer Chris Gragg Jonathan Meeks Phillip Thomas Gerald Christian Greg Salas

 

 

Those players were released because they're (a) too injured or over-paid, or (b) trash

 

If they were looking to rebuild in 2017, then Kyle Williams wouldn't still be here and they would have replaced those players above with undrafted FA rookies instead of veteran free agents.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

What's exciting about this season is that we have no idea how good McD is. I mean, for all we know, he could be the league's next great coach.

 

After learning just how disorganized things were under Rex, even a decent coach might be all this team needs.

He's got to be better than RR, DM, CG and GW

Did I miss any?

[Success]

He's got to be better than RR, DM, CG and GW

 

Did I miss any?

Wasn't Mularkey coach for awhile?

 

I've blocked a lot of it out. Therapy is helping.

[Ron Burgundy]

The complete lack of optimism for the upcoming season says a lot about the fan base. I count myself with the rest to be honest, we're writing off this season (with several valid reasons) even though teams make quick turnarounds all the time in the NFL. I doubt our new Carolina braintrust is thinking they are "rebuilding". I think their plan going in is to make the playoffs. These guys don't seem like the types to go into a season hoping to draft high next year. That's obviously complete speculation.

[eball]

And because it's not a rebuild, it's why we always go 7-9 or 6-10 most seasons.

 

Yes, we could sneak into the playoffs and I will be very happy. But odds are we're winning 6 or 7 games & might not have the ammo to pick a top qb to end this mediocre cycle.

 

I believe this is a talent team. I think with a top qb we are easily a playoff team. Tyrod is fine and certainly not a major problem. But I don't know if he will ever be a difference maker. And until we get that, our margin for error is so small.

 

 

I see this a lot like you do. This season has a different feel but I expect similar results. The Bills aren't bad enough to be a 3-13 type of team. That would allow them to grab a top QB prospect and rebuild quickly. They have a shot at the playoffs (I would say 20%ish) but are not Super Bowl contenders. If they do win 9 games (as an example) and just miss the playoffs what do they do next year? The problem is it's hard to go from the middle to the top. I wish that they either went all in this year (re-sign Gilmore, BPA at 10, re-sign MG, etc..) and tried to contend or blew it up. I am willing to let this play out but this feels like a decent football team that won't be good enough to win it all or bad enough to add major talent.

 

Guys, I think you're both basically agreeing with me. I'm not predicting a 10 win season, I'm just saying not to expect a 3-4 win season.

[John from Riverside]

The complete lack of optimism for the upcoming season says a lot about the fan base. I count myself with the rest to be honest, we're writing off this season (with several valid reasons) even though teams make quick turnarounds all the time in the NFL. I doubt our new Carolina braintrust is thinking they are "rebuilding". I think their plan going in is to make the playoffs. These guys don't seem like the types to go into a season hoping to draft high next year. That's obviously complete speculation.

why are you speaking for the fan base.....and what fan base

 

the punchbowl pissers you can count with your toes dont count

[BillsVet]

 

Name a team that isn't thin at some key position(s). My only point is that it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that a new approach yields better results, and the roster isn't talent-poor.

 

You've conflated the discussion into all teams having depth at positions. Well, yeah but that's not the point. Buffalo has starting and depth issues all over the field, save for perhaps interior OL and DL. Name another position where they are strong other than...FB.

 

And I would point out that players age, player performance isn't always carried over from season to season, the schedule will be challenging, and their depth will be challenged.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

You've conflated the discussion into all teams having depth at positions. Well, yeah but that's not the point. Buffalo has starting and depth issues all over the field, save for perhaps interior OL and DL. Name another position where they are strong other than...FB.

 

And I would point out that players age, player performance isn't always carried over from season to season, the schedule will be challenging, and their depth will be challenged.

We don't often agree but you are spot on here. They are thin at LB, DB, RB, TE and who knows about the depth at WR & QB. I think that they are pretty thin at DE as well.

[John from Riverside]

We don't often agree but you are spot on here. They are thin at LB, DB, RB, TE and who knows about the depth at WR & QB. I think that they are pretty thin at DE as well.

I think what we have are a lot of unknowns in the depth areas

 

I actually we are now pretty good at WR

Edited May 10, 2017 by John from Hemet

[Kirby Jackson]

I think what we have are a lot of unknowns in the depth areas

 

I actually we are now pretty good at WR

I think WR has a chance to be decent but it's certainly an unknown. I like Watkins and Jones quite a bit as the top 2 but have no idea behind them. It may be ugly and it may be solid.

 

They only have one safety, one TE, one RB and a couple of DEs. The LBs and corners have some questions but they have some guys that are unknowns. It's possible a guy or 2 emerges.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

 

Guys, I think you're both basically agreeing with me. I'm not predicting a 10 win season, I'm just saying not to expect a 3-4 win season.

Agreed and that's the problem. Honestly, if you don't have a franchise qb, you're better off hitting rock bottom if you're going to kiss the playoffs.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

It's a complete rebuild. Top to bottom left to right.

 

The key question is how many of the pieces they need to rebuild the team into what they want, do they have or will they get in the coming months?

[QCity]

This could be the last year in a Bills uniform for Kyle Williams, Shady, Tyrod, and possibly Watkins. I'd say the 2018 season is when the rebuild truly begins.

[JustWinPlease]

...and I find it amusing that posters are saying things like "give them three years and we'll see" and whatnot.

 

Yes, it's McD's first HC job, and yes, it's Beane's first GM job (although he did serve as interim GM for 10 games in 2012), but these guys are hardly "green" and the Bills' roster cupboard is far from bare.

 

I will be shocked if the Bills aren't at least a 6-7 win team, and I certainly think it's possible they could win 9 or 10. This is not a rebuild, it's a refocus.

A full-blown rebuild like the Sabres have gone through? No, it's not. But it is a rebuild, of the entire organization. If you're not rebuilding, and you're not contending...what are you doing?

 

I see several positions that need to be seriously strengthened for us to be a solid football team...not including more solid depth across the entire roster.

 

I see it like this...looking down the road. (Starters first, backups second, and so on...positions in need represented with a "?.")

 

QB: Tyrod (for how long?), Peterman

RB: Shady (for how long?), Williams, ? (this is a tough position, it needs to be rebuilt if Williams doesn't pan out.)

FB: Dimarco

WR: Watkins (for how long?), Jones, (after that we really just don't know)

TE: Clay (for how long?), O'Leary, ?

OT: Glenn, Dawkins, ?

OG: Incognito (for how long?), Miller, Groy

C: Wood (for how long?), Groy

 

DE: Hughes (for how long?), Lawson, ?, ?

DT: Dareus (for how long?), Williams (for how long?), Washington, Worthy

OLB: Alexander (for how long?), Milano/Vallejo, ?, ? (this position needs some SERIOUS work)

MLB: Ragland, Brown (for how long?), ?, ?

CB: Darby, White, Seymour, ?, ? (depth is a concern)

FS: Poyer, ?

SS: Hyde, ?

 

K: Hauschka

P: Schmidt/Rehkow

 

There's a lot of question marks and guys who could be leaving one way or another within a year...this roster needs some work, and these guys need some time to do it.

 

And knowing the Carolina way, it is going to be done through the draft...not in free agency.

Edited May 10, 2017 by JustWinPlease

[John from Riverside]

A full-blown rebuild like the Sabres have gone through? No, it's not. But it is a rebuild, of the entire organization. If you're not rebuilding, and you're not contending...what are you doing?

 

I see several positions that need to be seriously strengthened for us to be a solid football team...not including more solid depth across the entire roster.

 

I see it like this...looking down the road. (Starters first, backups second, and so on...positions in need represented with a "?.")

 

QB: Tyrod (for how long?), Peterman

RB: Shady (for how long?), Williams, ? (this is a tough position, it needs to be rebuilt if Williams doesn't pan out.)

FB: Dimarco

WR: Watkins (for how long?), Jones, (after that we really just don't know)

TE: Clay (for how long?), O'Leary, ?

OT: Glenn, Dawkins, ?

OG: Incognito (for how long?), Miller, Groy

C: Wood (for how long?), Groy

 

DE: Hughes (for how long?), Lawson, ?, ?

DT: Dareus (for how long?), Williams (for how long?), Washington, Worthy

OLB: Alexander (for how long?), Milano/Vallejo, ?, ? (this position needs some SERIOUS work)

MLB: Ragland, Brown (for how long?), ?, ?

CB: Darby, White, Seymour, ?, ? (depth is a concern)

FS: Poyer, ?

SS: Hyde, ?

 

K: Hauschka

P: Schmidt/Rehkow

 

There's a lot of question marks and guys who could be leaving one way or another within a year...this roster needs some work, and these guys need some time to do it.

 

And knowing the Carolina way, it is going to be done through the draft...not in free agency.

I would throw Tolbert in there with the running backs

[eball]

 

You've conflated the discussion into all teams having depth at positions. Well, yeah but that's not the point. Buffalo has starting and depth issues all over the field, save for perhaps interior OL and DL. Name another position where they are strong other than...FB.

 

And I would point out that players age, player performance isn't always carried over from season to season, the schedule will be challenging, and their depth will be challenged.

 

Ok, I'll change the focus. When I hear rebuild I think purge the big salaries and get rid of any higher priced vet who isn't expected to be a contributor in two seasons. I don't think they are doing that, and the reason is because there's enough talent that if some things break their way they are right in the mix. They've got three rookies from last year who barely contributed (Lawson) or not at all (Ragland, Listenbee). Their first three picks this season are expected to contribute. That's six new pieces right there. With the admitted talent on the OL and DL, and an adequate presence at QB, who is to say this will be a schittshow?

 

This isn't a pollyanna perspective and I'm not predicting playoffs.

Edited May 10, 2017 by eball

[8-8 Forever?]

...and I find it amusing that posters are saying things like "give them three years and we'll see" and whatnot.

 

Yes, it's McD's first HC job, and yes, it's Beane's first GM job (although he did serve as interim GM for 10 games in 2012), but these guys are hardly "green" and the Bills' roster cupboard is far from bare.

 

I will be shocked if the Bills aren't at least a 6-7 win team, and I certainly think it's possible they could win 9 or 10. This is not a rebuild, it's a refocus.

works for me

[C.Biscuit97]

The inevitable departure of shady next year and lack of depth behind him magnifies the head scratching decision to let MG go.

The last thing I give a crap about is backup RB. It's actually embarrassing how much Bills fans care about a freaking backup running back in a league that begs you to pass.

 

And there are two positions the Bills can actually draft well - RB and cb. Stop crying about a guy we picked up off waivers.

[Augie]

This could be the last year in a Bills uniform for Kyle Williams, Shady, Tyrod, and possibly Watkins. I'd say the 2018 season is when the rebuild truly begins.

So, we're going to win the comp pick war? YAY!

 

I won't pretend to know how this will turn out, but I sure am interested to watch it unfold.

[teef]

The inevitable departure of shady next year and lack of depth behind him magnifies the head scratching decision to let MG go.

scott...you are far too obsessed over a back up rb. i like the guy too, and prefer him on the team, but it's not the situation you want to make it out to be.

[VABills]

Ok, I'll change the focus. When I hear rebuild I think purge the big salaries and get rid of any higher priced vet who isn't expected to be a contributor in two seasons. I don't think they are doing that, and the reason is because there's enough talent that if some things break their way they are right in the mix. They've got three rookies from last year who barely contributed (Lawson) or not at all (Ragland, Listenbee). Their first three picks this season are expected to contribute. That's six new pieces right there. With the admitted talent on the OL and DL, and an adequate presence at QB, who is to say this will be a schittshow?

 

This isn't a pollyanna perspective and I'm not predicting playoffs.

Why aren't you predicting playoffs? Figure one more win at end of season if Whaley hadn't forced EJ into the starting lineup. Then the Miami game when we couldn't stop them after we went ahead. Steelers or Raiders should not have been losses. Heck Seattle we should have won, if it wasn't for the defense.

We should be a 10-11 win team this year.

[BADOLBILZ]

This is not a full-scale Cleveland Browns type of rebuild. That's clearly the case. But in my view this is a mini-rebuild that will take a few years before this team becomes a contending team. We can fruitlessly get into a semantical argument of the definition of a rebuild but what's the point in arguing that. What is very probable is that it is going to take at least three years to get back to being a serious team.

 

The Bills are a 7 win caliber of team, reasonable arguments can be made for -1 or +1 from that estimate. It's going to take because of our qb situation at least another two or three years before it climbs out of its generational rut.

 

With good coaching and smart personnel moves it wouldn't surprise me if this team got better although in the short run it still wasn't reflected by its record.

 

 

A few years is an eternity in the NFL today.

 

We tend to forget this as Bills fans.

 

Progress is also not linear in the NFL.

 

Could this just be a 4-6 win team next year? Yeah.

 

But they have difference makers at key positions that teams pay big $ for........Watkins(WR) Dareus(pass rush) Taylor(QB) and Glenn(LT)...........so they could also have a very healthy season and win 10-11 games and make some noise in the playoffs.......but then still have to re-tool again and possibly take a step back in 2018.

 

So I can't get down with these broad notions of re-builds or some 3 year plan.......that's mythology in todays NFL......ask Andrew Luck and the Colts about "trajectory".

 

The first Brady SB team had a shaky roster.......they were in a bad spot with a roster that looked like it had missed it's window........but everything came together and they won a SB.

 

Not linear.

 

I doubt anyone in the organization considers this a rebuild of any sort......the personnel choices weren't a conscious step back but rather financial decisions.

 

Mistakes perhaps, but not "oh well, we gotta' lose now so we can win in 3 years" decisions.

Edited May 10, 2017 by #BADOL

[billsfan_34]

 

I am generally optimistic but it happens every year. This roster is already competitive. You don't think a more structured and disciplined approach will lead to better results than under Rex?

This Roster has many holes in it and lacks depth. Linebacker and Defensive Backfield are 2 areas. Lets not even mention WR and a crippled Clay. Couple all that without a franchise QB and it spells for a long season again.

[billykaykay]

We don't often agree but you are spot on here. They are thin at LB, DB, RB, TE and who knows about the depth at WR & QB. I think that they are pretty thin at DE as well.

they have 4 QB's

[Rico]

I don't think it's a big rebuild of talent, but it certainly is a huge rebuild for attitude. Who on the roster knows anything about winning in the NFL? Hyde? Houshka? TT with the Ravens? McD will have his hands full just changing the losing culture. In my eyes, he and BB have got 3 years... if he can turn it around sooner, all the more power to him.

[BADOLBILZ]

scott...you are far too obsessed over a back up rb. i like the guy too, and prefer him on the team, but it's not the situation you want to make it out to be.

 

 

Scott's right.......it was foolish to not tender MG higher........and risky not matching.

 

Should have kept the strength intact.

 

Better to be dominant in one area than robbing an area of strength to get slightly better at a weakness........the Cowboys strung together a hell of a season last year with a loaded offense and a well coached, journeyman laden defense.

 

A great strength can negate a lot of weaknesses.

[John from Riverside]

 

 

Scott's right.......it was foolish to not tender MG higher........and risky not matching.

 

Should have kept the strength intact.

 

Better to be dominant in one area than robbing an area of strength to get slightly better at a weakness........the Cowboys strung together a hell of a season last year with a loaded offense and a well coached, journeyman laden defense.

 

A great strength can negate a lot of weaknesses.

I do wonder if the Mike G. situation had any part in the final evaluation of DW.

[3rdand12]

I don't think it's a big rebuild of talent, but it certainly is a huge rebuild for attitude. Who on the roster knows anything about winning in the NFL? Hyde? Houshka? TT with the Ravens? McD will have his hands full just changing the losing culture. In my eyes, he and BB have got 3 years... if he can turn it around sooner, all the more power to him.

I agree with another poster that 4 years is a nice number if we draft a QB next year in sincerity.

 

Changing the losing and getting the horses pulling in the same direction is the "game changer" here. If they stick to their guns i suspect we will see better team this year. Maybe not W/L but less of the costly errors. More cohesive coherent play upon the field and off it too.

 

Rebuild? loose term. But i guess it qualifies.

Because i do not expect to look like it has for the last 4+ years at least.

I bet we feel the change during preseason.

 

wheres my Koolaid pitcher ?

I do wonder if the Mike G. situation had any part in the final evaluation of DW.

I dont think it was Whaley's players that pushed the button for Pegula .

[NewMexBills]

this sure looks like a rebuild to me, its gonna be awhile until we win just face it!

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

I am generally optimistic but it happens every year. This roster is already competitive. You don't think a more structured and disciplined approach will lead to better results than under Rex?

Nope

[Delusional Bills Optimist]

Delusional?

My ears are burning...

[John from Riverside]

Nope

LOL

[Sweats]

It's not a rebuild?

 

Well, lets look at some facts, Jack...........

 

1) we've got a 1st time HC

2) we've got a 1st time GM

3) the scouting dept. was blown-up

4) we barely have a mediocre team to hit the field each week

5) we've got arguably the toughest schedule we've had in years

6) we'll be lucky to pull out 6 wins this season

7) we'll be the Pats door mats yet again this year

8) the guy who somewhat had a say in this years draft was fired the next day

9) we're desperately in need of cap room re-structuring

 

...........not a rebuild, you say?

 

Shameful...........just shameful.

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

LOL

Without a QB, improvement is impossible

[stapha4]

I feel bad for Shady... The team let him down by not building a team to be more competitive this yr.

 

With the tough schedule this team, gonna be lucky to be 8-8 this yr. With Tyrod on only a 1yr deal.. next year we will be bringing in a young QB so it is definitely gonna be rebuilding time then.

 

The playoff drought is going to continue until we get a real QB..