Thurman#1 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 (edited) Doubt it might take some time? Look at the Panthers defense: 2010 Panthers: 18th in D in the league McDermott is hired as DC from the Eagles after the 2010 season. 2011 Panthers: 28th in D in the league 2012 Panthers: 10th in D in the league 2013 Panthers: 2nd in D in the league 2014 Panthers: 10th in D in the league 2015 Panthers: 6th in D in the league 2016 Panthers: 21st in D in the league They got worse that first year. Wondering about scoring defense? Here's the figures: 2010: 26th He's hired. 2011: 27th 2012: 18th 2013: 2nd 2014: 12th 2015: 6th 2016: 26th Got worse the first year and still below average the second year. It generally takes some time. Wondering if this was because they were rebuilding? Every defensive starter in 2011, McDermott's first year, had been drafted by the Panthers. (Check ProFootballReference.com). That's not a rebuild or anything close to it. The second year they brought in some FAs, starting to get their own type of guys in place ... Ron Edwards from the Bills, Dwan Edwards from Baltimore and Haruki Nakamura from Baltimore and drafting 9th brought in two defensive starters, Kuechly and Norman. They got a few of their type of guys in place and the system had been in place for a year and things started to look up a bit. Edited May 11, 2017 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr8billsfan Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 The first step of grievance is denial... just saying. The fact is they're rebuilding,without a franchise QB, aging DL and OL, the worries of the WR corp and a whole bunch of other issues.. #1 Step of grievance... New thread please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsGospel Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 ...and I find it amusing that posters are saying things like "give them three years and we'll see" and whatnot. Yes, it's McD's first HC job, and yes, it's Beane's first GM job (although he did serve as interim GM for 10 games in 2012), but these guys are hardly "green" and the Bills' roster cupboard is far from bare. I will be shocked if the Bills aren't at least a 6-7 win team, and I certainly think it's possible they could win 9 or 10. This is not a rebuild, it's a refocus. You call it what you want, both Beane and McDermott will want to build around what kind of vision they see for this team.... Our secondary already lost Aaron Williams, Stephon Gilmore, Corey Graham, Nickel Robey-Coleman, Jonathan Meeks and Duke Williams... Brought in Michah Hyde, Jordan Poyer, Shareece Wright, Leonard Johnson, Trae Elston, Marcus Robertson and drafted Tre'Davious White. You call it what you want but we totally rebuilt the secondary up for better or worse, we'll see come Sept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan692 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 (edited) Doubt it might take some time? Look at the Panthers defense: 2010 Panthers: 18th in D in the league McDermott is hired as DC from the Eagles after the 2010 season. 2011 Panthers: 28th in D in the league 2012 Panthers: 10th in D in the league 2013 Panthers: 2nd in D in the league 2014 Panthers: 10th in D in the league 2015 Panthers: 6th in D in the league 2016 Panthers: 21st in D in the league They got worse that first year. Wondering about scoring defense? Here's the figures: 2010: 26th He's hired. 2011: 27th 2012: 18th 2013: 2nd 2014: 12th 2015: 6th 2016: 26th Got worse the first year and still below average the second year. It generally takes some time. Wondering if this was because they were rebuilding? Every defensive starter in 2011, McDermott's first year, had been drafted by the Panthers. (Check ProFootballReference.com). That's not a rebuild or anything close to it. The second year they brought in some FAs, starting to get their own type of guys in place ... Ron Edwards from the Bills, Dwan Edwards from Baltimore and Haruki Nakamura from Baltimore and drafting 9th brought in two defensive starters, Kuechly and Norman. They got a few of their type of guys in place and the system had been in place for a year and things started to look up a bit. This is all very anecdotal. Different job different team different players different situation. The most confusing part to me is why we are building a case for a few years of failure being okay under the new McDermott regime, but 2 years of better than bills average failure under Rex Ryan was insufferable. Come to think of it wasn't Rex fired because Whaley had pegs ear and wanted him to bench Tyrod and he more or less refused? Enter McDermott who also fights with Whaley over Tyrod, but Peg being wiser at this point realizes it is Whaley that is the problem. Off topic at this point but come on, we (as fans) seem awfully confused about where we have been where we are and where we are going. My general point is: If McDermott can't give us better than Rex his first year then why did we fire Rex and Hire McD? He either IS a better coach, or he ISN'T. I for one think he is a better coach, and that he will have more success than Rex did in the same time frame. I have to believe that is why we chose to fire the old and Hire the new, it's also why I am having trouble understanding most of the logic in this thread. If that turns out not to be the case, I will be disappointed. At least with Rex we were knocking on the door. Edited May 11, 2017 by BillsFan692 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 god...you were obnoxious on the bbmb, and you're even worse here. So you are saying it is your fault. He is your stalker. We could swap the entire operation with the Pats - players, coaches, FO, owner - and a substantial percentage of Bills fans would be moaning about another 6 or 7 win season. Yes most wanting us to bottom out and let our players being grabbed by other teams with Bills getting comp picks. Of course most of those would be complaining about dysfunctional front office and Bills being in "Quarterback Purgatory". We have to accept that this will continue to happen unless Dr. Quack spikes the drinks with hemlock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Great, another 2-3 years with no playoffs? Yep, our 'baby' is now 17. It can enlist in the Armed Forces with a parental note. 2-3 years? It'll be a Sergeant Noplayoffs.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbomb Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Y'all act like you can see into the future. Our schedule is only difficult based on speculation. Aside from NEx2, nobody knows what to expect from any of the team's we are scheduled against this year. You are all simply speculating. Gilmore -> White a downgrade????? We will see about that. Never liked Gilmore at all not sad he is gone. White is a young and promising player, I think at the very least he fills the spot just fine. I am certainly as likely to be right in my speculation as you are. As for everything else, it's all speculation. There have been many instances where new coaches have immediately made an impact. I'm not saying we will go undefeated or That we are "super bowl bound" I'm saying reading some of this loser mentality talk is so bills. Root for your dang team, get excited and hope for the best! I know it's been a long drought but NOTHING lasts forever. In my opinion, the odds of us performing better under McDermott than we did under Rex Ryan are high. i agree, rookie head coaches succeed plenty, as well as rookie players. Good point on the schedule also, there is no guarantee that because a team was good last year they will be good the next.While depth may be a little thin in some areas, every hole has been filled with a rookie or fa pickup. Next year we have plenty of cap, 2 1st round picks, kyle sammy and wood are our only really big fa of which kyle and wood would be cheaper than now if we would choose to keep them because of age and sammy we could franchise if we had too. We are also grooming 2 possible qbs with the possiblity of adding another next year. Im pretty optimistic about next year and the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 (edited) If McDermott can't give us better than Rex his first year then why did we fire Rex and Hire McD? He either IS a better coach, or he ISN'T. I for one think he is a better coach, and that he will have more success than Rex did in the same time frame. I have to believe that is why we chose to fire the old and Hire the new, it's also why I am having trouble understanding most of the logic in this thread. If that turns out not to be the case, I will be disappointed. At least with Rex we were knocking on the door. Why did we fire him if he can't do better in his first year? Because after that first year, another year will follow. And another after that. And it'll just keep going that way, whether McDermott's still here or not until the NFL eventually disappears. And because caring more about the short-term than the long-term is not how smart people and teams proceed. Change is difficult, especially when switching schemes. And it isn't even slightly anecdotal that McDermott's defense took a while to get started in Carolina. The numbers show it. That's the way it's very likely to go. Oh, and how were we "knocking on the door" with Rex? The guy took a 9-7 team, and ran them to 8-8 and then 7-9. i agree, rookie head coaches succeed plenty, as well as rookie players. Good point on the schedule also, there is no guarantee that because a team was good last year they will be good the next. While depth may be a little thin in some areas, every hole has been filled with a rookie or fa pickup. Next year we have plenty of cap, 2 1st round picks, kyle sammy and wood are our only really big fa of which kyle and wood would be cheaper than now if we would choose to keep them because of age and sammy we could franchise if we had too. We are also grooming 2 possible qbs with the possiblity of adding another next year. Im pretty optimistic about next year and the future OK, if rookie head coaches succeed plenty, name ten. But don't count guys like Barry Switzer who took over a team that was already excellent and didn't switch any schemes. Ten rookie coaches who took over losing teams, switched schemes on both sides of the ball and really improved the team in their first year. You might find ten, but I'm betting it takes you a while. For obvious reasons. Edited May 11, 2017 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 If the Bills are expecting to be bad this season and want to rebuild then they're doing it wrong. Instead of what they did, they should have... (1) Kept Rex and his staff (2) Told Kyle Williams to retire or tried to trade him for draft picks (3) Traded Shady or released him (regardless of the cap hit) (4) Let Tyrod walk (5) Released Incognito (6) Traded Sammy (7) Let Lorenzo Alexander walk (8) Not signed RB Mike Tolbert (9) Not signed FB Patrick Dimarco (10) Not signed OG Vladimir Ducasse (11) Not signed FS Micah Hyde (12) Not signed SS Jordan Poyer (13) Not signed WR Andre Holmes (14) Not signed WR Corey Brown (15) Not signed WR Jeremy Butler (16) Not signed DE Ryan Davis (17) Instead, signed countless UD rookie FA's to take those spots and loaded up on comp picks for the 2018 Draft Guaranteed #1 pick in next year's draft. But they didn't do those things. So if they're trying to truly "rebuild" and stink in 2017, then they're doing it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2009 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Salary cap had nothing to do with it. If they tendered him a 2nd for an extra million we wouldn't be having this discussion. Considering they have around 9 million plus in cap space now, it wasn't prohibiting them from the tender. Have to hope Jonathan Williams steps up big this year but duplicating MG's production from last season is a lot to ask, IMO. Prediction: The running game will not be as productive this season.MG was a big loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 We don't often agree but you are spot on here. They are thin at LB, DB, RB, TE and who knows about the depth at WR & QB. I think that they are pretty thin at DE as well. Worlds are colliding here. I think somewhere the space-time continuum has been disrupted. To the OP's point though: We all want to make the playoffs and the sooner the better. If it's this season, great. The likelihood based on roster composition and the positions you've mentioned make it a tough sell. Some of the stronger areas of the team last year may not be in 2017. Yep, our 'baby' is now 17. It can enlist in the Armed Forces with a parental note. 2-3 years? It'll be a Sergeant Noplayoffs.. If it goes further, it can go to officer candidate school or a service academy and become Lieutenant Noplayoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 If the Bills are expecting to be bad this season and want to rebuild then they're doing it wrong. Instead of what they did, they should have... (10) Not signed OG Vladimir Ducasse Guaranteed #1 pick in next year's draft. But they didn't do those things. So if they're trying to truly "rebuild" and stink in 2017, then they're doing it wrong. I don't know....Ducasse might be the worst player in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2009 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 There is absolutely no reason for us to be thin at RB. None. You're right. The one strength of this team was weakened by Whaley's incompetence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Salary cap had nothing to do with it. If they tendered him a 2nd for an extra million we wouldn't be having this discussion. Considering they have around 9 million plus in cap space now, it wasn't prohibiting them from the tender. Have to hope Jonathan Williams steps up big this year but duplicating MG's production from last season is a lot to ask, IMO. So, you're saying salary cap had nothing to do with it ... and then saying that the reason we lost him is that we offered him a million too little for his tender? You're not noticing that those two things might be very much related. And having $9 mill in cap room on a team which has not yet signed it's draftees who will probably take around $3- $4 mill off the cap ... on a team that generally goes into the season with around $5 - $6 mill available in case they need to make some injury signings .. Yeah, exactly. They have almost no money that they feel comfortable spending. Now, they might cut some guys down the line and pick up cheaper replacements, and that could save them a million or two. But cap problems was a huge part of a bunch of the decisions to let guys go this year. Gillislee too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFFacet Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 ...and I find it amusing that posters are saying things like "give them three years and we'll see" and whatnot. Yes, it's McD's first HC job, and yes, it's Beane's first GM job (although he did serve as interim GM for 10 games in 2012), but these guys are hardly "green" and the Bills' roster cupboard is far from bare. I will be shocked if the Bills aren't at least a 6-7 win team, and I certainly think it's possible they could win 9 or 10. This is not a rebuild, it's a refocus. No matter what's "in the cupboard," it takes some amount of time to fully implement and familiarize players with the program. New coordinators and new schemes don't just click overnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 So, you're saying salary cap had nothing to do with it ... and then saying that the reason we lost him is that we offered him a million too little for his tender? You're not noticing that those two things might be very much related. And having $9 mill in cap room on a team which has not yet signed it's draftees who will probably take around $3- $4 mill off the cap ... on a team that generally goes into the season with around $5 - $6 mill available in case they need to make some injury signings .. Yeah, exactly. They have almost no money that they feel comfortable spending. Now, they might cut some guys down the line and pick up cheaper replacements, and that could save them a million or two. But cap problems was a huge part of a bunch of the decisions to let guys go this year. Gillislee too. I imagine the cap problems were also a huge part of why Whaley was shown the door. McDermott probably came in, looked at the cap situation they were in, and said "We're in the midst of a 17 year playoff drought and we're in cap hell?? What the hell is this?!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2009 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 I imagine the cap problems were also a huge part of why Whaley was shown the door. McDermott probably came in, looked at the cap situation they were in, and said "We're in the midst of a 17 year playoff drought and we're in cap hell?? What the hell is this?!" This is spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Not really. And NE will go 19-0. 7-9. Good luck for rooting for your team to go 19-0. Make sure you buy one of the old T-shirts with that record on it so you can show it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Why are fans still wringing their hands over MG? "Dime a dozen" is used too much for backs, but he truly is a dime a dozen kind of guy. Love his burst, but he's really not some sort of special player. We have the cap. They could have made him one of the higher paid #2's, but they didn't. And so what? Williams was a beast in college and would have been a high rounder if not for his injury. I doubt we miss a beat in the running game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 You're right. The one strength of this team was weakened by Whaley's incompetence. Yes all bad decisions were made by Whaley rather than bean counter in charge of cap or coach McCut. I imagine the cap problems were also a huge part of why Whaley was shown the door. McDermott probably came in, looked at the cap situation they were in, and said "We're in the midst of a 17 year playoff drought and we're in cap hell?? What the hell is this?!" Money decisions were not made by Whaley but by cap specialist who is still employed - since playoff drought he has been employed I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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