This is not a rebuild, folks...

[JM2009]

And Mike G. clearly got more carries and more work

 

You cant just throw a player in every now and then (wasnt even active every game in Jon Williams case) and expect them to put up productive numbers

Well, he'll have his chance now. I think the running game will not be as good this season. We'll see.

[QCity]

And Mike G. clearly got more carries and more work

 

You cant just throw a player in every now and then (wasnt even active every game in Jon Williams case) and expect them to put up productive numbers

 

 

He got more carries and more work because he was a better running back. You don't get playing time if you fumble.

[JM2009]

 

 

He got more carries and more work because he was a better running back. You don't get playing time if you fumble.

True.

[Wayne Arnold]

Hang on, let me get a straw to drink all this Kool-Aid...

 

[John from Riverside]

Well, he'll have his chance now. I think the running game will not be as good this season. We'll see.

They said the same thing when Karlos Williams........

[papazoid]

Hang on, let me get a straw to drink all this Kool-Aid...

 

 

drink slowwwwww

 

my stomach still hurts from when they hired rex

[GunnerBill]

They said the same thing when Karlos Williams........

When Karlos was cut we still had MG who had already really shown something at the tail end of 2015. I hope you are right about JWill John I really do... I just don't have high hopes based on what I saw last year.

[Kirby Jackson]

When Karlos was cut we still had MG who had already really shown something at the tail end of 2015. I hope you are right about JWill John I really do... I just don't have high hopes based on what I saw last year.

Me neither, I thought that his feet were slow.

[Billzgobowlin]

It could really go one of two ways. We either see the talent displayed brightly and the offense and defense click as opposed to one side or the other the past 15 or so years and we make the playoffs or we lose 10+ and start dropping bad contracts and rebuild. Optimistically I say we are the first team and not the second but I am ready for the rebuild. I think the only way Kyle stays this year is if he is promised the winning he hasn't experienced yet.

[GunnerBill]

Me neither, I thought that his feet were slow.

Watched the same games as me Kirby.

[John from Riverside]

 

 

He got more carries and more work because he was a better running back. You don't get playing time if you fumble.

He had a problem with fumbles in his rookie year....yes

 

Guess what.....Karlos Williams fumbled some balls as well......hey so did Shady.

 

I am not trying to make this case that Jon Williams is better then Mike G......EVERBODY loved Mike G. I am saying we have been finding the "next man up" thing with this position work pretty well for us.

 

Also...lets keep in mind that Jon Williams was 1 year sans a pretty major injury which was why he even fell so far in the draft....he did not have fumble issues in college....as a matter a fact he looked fantastic in college.

Edited May 11, 2017 by John from Hemet

[BuffaloHokie13]

He had a problem with fumbles in his rookie year....yes

 

Guess what.....Karlos Williams fumbled some balls as well......hey so did Shady.

 

I am not trying to make this case that Jon Williams is better then Mike G......EVERBODY loved Mike G. I am saying we have been finding the "next man up" thing with this position work pretty well for us.

 

Also...lets keep in mind that Jon Williams was 1 year sans a pretty major injury which was why he even fell so far in the draft....he did not have fumble issues in college....as a matter a fact he looked fantastic in college.

John, I understand it's a small sample size, but let's not get into the everyone fumbles stuff...

 

Karlos Williams fumbled twice in his 104 touches. That's 1.92%

Shady has fumbled 5 times in his 519 touches. That's 0.96%

TD Mike fumbled once in his 163 touches. That's 0.61%

JWill fumbled twice in 28 touches. That's 7.14%

 

It's concerning. Hopefully someone stops swapping his stickum out for grease.

[Prickly Pete]

I don't know how you guys sustain interest in this team.

[reddogblitz]

OK, if rookie head coaches succeed plenty, name ten. But don't count guys like Barry Switzer who took over a team that was already excellent and didn't switch any schemes. Ten rookie coaches who took over losing teams, switched schemes on both sides of the ball and really improved the team in their first year.

 

You might find ten, but I'm betting it takes you a while. For obvious reasons.

I can think of 2 right off the bat.

 

2015 the Fish we're the worst team in our division. 2016 under rookie coach Gase they made the playoffs.

 

2014 the Jets were the worst team in our division. 2015 under rookie coach Bowles they went 10-6.

Edited May 12, 2017 by reddogblitz

[Gugny]

I can think of 2 right off the bat.

 

2015 the Fish we're the worst team in our division. 2016 under rookie coach Gase they made the playoffs.

 

2014 the Jets were the worst team in our division. 2015 under rookie coach Bowles they went 10-6.

 

They both got to play the Bills 2x a year.

[reddogblitz]

They both got to play the Bills 2x a year.

Good news for Gase who went 2-0 vs the Bills.

 

Bad news for Bowles who lost to Bills twice 22-17.

[Thurman#1]

They have no problem dishing out 4 Mil to Vlad Ducasse but you can't keep MG for an extra Mil?

 

Awful allocation of resources. Let me rephrase, the Salary cap SHOULDNT have kept them from retaining MG.

 

Not sure who was responsible, but I have to think that's McDermotts doing considering what transpired as soon as the drafted ended in regards to Whaley.

 

 

Shouldn't have? Well, I don't disagree with you there.

 

Whaley shouldn't have done a crappy job with the cap, but he did. I don't mind Ducasse specifically. I don't really know anything about him except that he's a UMASS guy and that's where I got my Masters. Go Minutemen!!!! But I'm with you that I would rather they had for example not given Shady the raise they did. Or not signed Clay even though it's obvious from the All-22 that he's very open extremely often. Or hadn't signed Harvin so that they were paying him dead cap last year and could have rolled the money over into this year's cap. Or something.

 

Point is, they were in an awful situation and had to let a bunch of guys go that they probably didn't want to ... guys like Gilmore and Zac Brown. And Gillislee.

 

I imagine the cap problems were also a huge part of why Whaley was shown the door. McDermott probably came in, looked at the cap situation they were in, and said "We're in the midst of a 17 year playoff drought and we're in cap hell?? What the hell is this?!"

 

 

I'm totally with you on that, Wayne.

 

And the new guys obviously both care and get it, because we didn't get any of the re-negotiations that just push the problem down the road. I love it that the new regime is just going to take their medicine right now, fight down the nausea at the taste and get a healthy cap as soon as possible.

And this fantastically talented RB Whaley let "get away" was soooo great that every team in the league was chasing him with record-breaking contract offers, right? Come down from the clouds; until he signed with the Bills, who ever heard of him? And while I would have liked to have kept him, Whaley and the pro scouting department's track record says we'll find another MG type without missing a beat. Oh wait, Whaley was fired and there is no pro scouting department at the moment.

 

 

Enough with the "Gillislee was nothing special" nonsense. Nobody is trying to say he's AP, but he's an excellent player for his role, Excellent. Led the league in YPA last year including shading Shady.

 

Got the cheapest team in the league, a team reknowned for not spending much on their run game, to give him an offer to high for Buffalo to match because of their cap problems, an offer that's one of the highest salaries in the league for non-starting RBs.

 

He's a very good player for what his role is, very good, and we'll miss him. Hopefully we can come up with somebody to replace him, but it's not a sure thing by any means.

I can think of 2 right off the bat.

 

2015 the Fish we're the worst team in our division. 2016 under rookie coach Gase they made the playoffs.

 

2014 the Jets were the worst team in our division. 2015 under rookie coach Bowles they went 10-6.

 

 

 

I asked for ten. And said that he might be able to come up with them but that it would take some real time and thought. So that point still stands. Whereas it would be very easy to come up with ten coaches who came in to losing teams and switched schemes and DIDN'T have success their first year.

 

It happens. It's just pretty rare.

[reddogblitz]

I asked for ten. And said that he might be able to come up with them but that it would take some real time and thought. So that point still stands. Whereas it would be very easy to come up with ten coaches who came in to losing teams and switched schemes and DIDN'T have success their first year.

 

It happens. It's just pretty rare.

 

Don't forget Jim Harbaugh.

 

2010 49ers were 3-13. Under rookie HC Jim Harbuagh 12-4

 

I'm just mentioning as I remember because I wasn't the guy you asked for 10 from. Only got 7 to go for them.

[Thurman#1]

 

Don't forget Jim Harbaugh.

 

2010 49ers were 3-13. Under rookie HC Jim Harbuagh 12-4

 

I'm just mentioning as I remember because I wasn't the guy you asked for 10 from. Only got 7 to go for them.

 

 

 

The Niners under Harbaugh went from a 3-4 with occasional plays in a 4-3 ... to pretty much the same thing. Tomsula was highly involved on defense under both systems. They weren't switching schemes. I don't remember on offense, but this does not meet my qualifications. I guess if you wanted to argue I wouldn't bother to counter, but our group is going to have a tougher first year, with different schemes. We'll run a lot on offense, that'll stay the same, but the scheme will change.

 

And the history of this is that I challenged one guy who said it happened all the time to come up with ten, and said that I thought he might, but that it would take time and a lot of thought. So far the fact that one person came up with two and another person came up with one (that really doesn't fit) if anything indicates that I'm not on the wrong track. It's taking time and thought.

 

Here's a list of ten coaches joining losing teams putting in new systems to the best of my recollection, who did NOT turn things around in the first year:

 

1) Chuck Noll

2) Jimmy Johnson

3) Bill Walsh

4) Marv Levy

5) Bill Belichick in either of his two head coaching spots

6) Andy Reid

7) Tom Landry

8) Tom Coughlin in either of his two spots

9) Pete Carroll at the Jets and Seahawks (with the Pats he was 10-6 his first year but the year before NE had had 11 wins)

10) Mike McCarthy (8-8)

 

 

EDIT: Wanna say Landry doesn't count because it was their first year as a team? Fair enough. I'll replace him with Mike Shanahan at all three of his jobs.

 

Took me like seven minutes. That's the difference. It's easy to find them because it's what happens most of the time. I just tried to think of the most respected coaches historically and currently and checked their records.

 

I did find one on your side as I looked. Lombardi went 7-5 in his first year, pretty impressive as they'd been 1-10-1 the year before.

 

 

 

 

It's certainly not impossible that we make a huge turnaround and become a great team. But it's rare, and therefore unlikely.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Thurman#1

[Chandler#81]

He had a problem with fumbles in his rookie year....yes

 

Guess what.....Karlos Williams fumbled some balls as well......hey so did Shady.

 

I am not trying to make this case that Jon Williams is better then Mike G......EVERBODY loved Mike G. I am saying we have been finding the "next man up" thing with this position work pretty well for us.

 

Also...lets keep in mind that Jon Williams was 1 year sans a pretty major injury which was why he even fell so far in the draft....he did not have fumble issues in college....as a matter a fact he looked fantastic in college.

 

So true, John. If the Bills have just one historical positive, it's RB. From Cookie to OJ to Terry Miller to Joe Cribbs to Thurman to Travis Henry to Marshawn to Shady, with a whole smattering of effective back ups/semi-starters like Fred, Kenny Davis, Robb Riddick, Jim Braxton. You'd be hard pressed to name another team with a great RB on nearly every team they've fielded in their existence.