vegas55 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 It's great to see the Bills running game make such giant strides, but the NFL of 2015, with its rules so heavily favoring passing, makes this offensive philosophy problematic. The biggest problem with it is that in general no matter how much your team is dominating the game, this offensive style tends to keep the game close. In a game that is close as the 4th quarter winds down, anything can happen. And with the Bills that is generally a bad thing. Take Sunday's game for example. I listen to Chris Brown and Sal C. go on about how well the Bills played, how great the offensive design was etc etc. True enough, but with all that going for them, and all their talent, playing at home with zero turnovers, this game was TIED with less than two minutes to go. A blown coverage gets them the win, but we all know in that situation ANYTHING could happen, and a tipped ball or fumble could have cost them a game wherein they played so well and dominated. Why? Because a conservative, ground and pound O kept the score close, and even a journeyman QB like Hoyer, behind in the game and forced to air it out, brings them back to a toss up with less than two minutes to go. Doug Marone loved to pound the ball, and loved to tell everybody how important winning the turnover battle was. But check the Bills record under him, and you will see that they lost an inordinate amount of games when they WON the turnover battle, and squeaked out wins when they won that battle by a margin of two or three. Why - because his ground and pound kept the other team close, and an unlucky break or bad last half of fourth quarter cost them games they dominated in turnovers and play. Not dissing the run game, but simply pointing out the downside of that O philosophy, given the rules we have in NFL 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The Bills scored 30 points last week and missed an extra point. There are only three teams in the league that average 31 points a game and they are all right around 31. We are tenth overall in scoring and that is with a lot of injuries and a first year HC and OC and system and QB and 2 RB and TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The Bills are 5-1 when they rush for 130 or more. It opens up the passing game, which is clicking. Ground and pound away. Also, defenses are being built more to stop the passing game than a power run game because of where many offenses are going/have gone. This is advantage Bills if they can do both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Ground & pound It's more like shake & bake with Shady in there & i can't for the life of me figure out why they brought Felton in & paid him what they did because they sure aren't getting much if any return on the money they spent ! Especially in a "Ground & Pound" type scheme i don't know that the guy has been on the field for 30 plays this year has ha ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOVABillsFan Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The Bills are 5-1 when they rush for 130 or more. It opens up the passing game, which is clicking. Ground and pound away. Also, defenses are being built more to stop the passing game than a power run game because of where many offenses are going/have gone. This is advantage Bills if they can do both. I recall similar in years past. Then the Bills rush (individual over 100 or team for)130 or more they typically win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Grant Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Shady & Karlos are more "slash and bash." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Shady & Karlos are more "slash and bash." Smash and Dash! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Grant Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Smash and Dash! Okay yeah, that's better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Smash and Dash! Rosencrantz and Guildenstern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The Bills are 5-1 when they rush for 130 or more. It opens up the passing game, which is clicking. Ground and pound away. Also, defenses are being built more to stop the passing game than a power run game because of where many offenses are going/have gone. This is advantage Bills if they can do both. Is there a team that has a losing record when they rush for 130 or more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Ground & pound It's more like shake & bake with Shady in there & i can't for the life of me figure out why they brought Felton in & paid him what they did because they sure aren't getting much if any return on the money they spent ! Especially in a "Ground & Pound" type scheme i don't know that the guy has been on the field for 30 plays this year has ha ?? I remember some posts in here saying the same thing about Felton. I agreed. This past week Felton appeared to make much more of an impact. They seem to like using him on that sweep play as an extra pulling Olineman. McCoy is by far the best RB we have seen since Thurman. McCoy gets 9 yards when most backs would get stopped at the line or maybe a few yards. If McCoy stays healthy i like the Bills shot at the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The great Bills offense of 1990 with Kelly and Thurman, which was #1 in the league, averaged 200 yards passing and 130 yards rushing per game. 130 yards per game was pretty awesome back then. The Bills are currently #4 in the NFL in rushing at 140.9 yards per game. We're also #10 in scoring at 24.7 points per game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I'm really glad someone found a reason to start another thread focusing on something to worry about. Geez. The Bills scored 21 first half points on Sunday. Robert Woods fell down to foul up a 2nd half TD, and Charles Clay dropped a wide open pass across the middle to extend a drive. They missed a FG. And they still scored 30. Relax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The Bills are currently #4 in the NFL in rushing at 140.9 yards per game. We're also #10 in scoring at 24.7 points per game. With an average defense and entirely crappy special teams and a boatload of injuries, combined with, as stated above, a new HC, OC, QB, RB, TE and system. That's more than decent production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Pass to score, run to win. Running and being able to stop the run will NEVER be passe in this league. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prissythecat Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I remember some posts in here saying the same thing about Felton. I agreed. This past week Felton appeared to make much more of an impact. They seem to like using him on that sweep play as an extra pulling Olineman. McCoy is by far the best RB we have seen since Thurman. McCoy gets 9 yards when most backs would get stopped at the line or maybe a few yards. If McCoy stays healthy i like the Bills shot at the playoffs. I thought from the many Freddie fans that Freddie is the best we have had since Thurman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBBullsfan Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 the problem with ground and pound is that offensive lines are rarely good enough to do it anymore. Dallas did it last year... Can you think of any other recent examples where an O line was that dominant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 It's great to see the Bills running game make such giant strides, but the NFL of 2015, with its rules so heavily favoring passing, makes this offensive philosophy problematic. The biggest problem with it is that in general no matter how much your team is dominating the game, this offensive style tends to keep the game close. In a game that is close as the 4th quarter winds down, anything can happen. And with the Bills that is generally a bad thing. Take Sunday's game for example. I listen to Chris Brown and Sal C. go on about how well the Bills played, how great the offensive design was etc etc. True enough, but with all that going for them, and all their talent, playing at home with zero turnovers, this game was TIED with less than two minutes to go. A blown coverage gets them the win, but we all know in that situation ANYTHING could happen, and a tipped ball or fumble could have cost them a game wherein they played so well and dominated. Why? Because a conservative, ground and pound O kept the score close, and even a journeyman QB like Hoyer, behind in the game and forced to air it out, brings them back to a toss up with less than two minutes to go. Doug Marone loved to pound the ball, and loved to tell everybody how important winning the turnover battle was. But check the Bills record under him, and you will see that they lost an inordinate amount of games when they WON the turnover battle, and squeaked out wins when they won that battle by a margin of two or three. Why - because his ground and pound kept the other team close, and an unlucky break or bad last half of fourth quarter cost them games they dominated in turnovers and play. Not dissing the run game, but simply pointing out the downside of that O philosophy, given the rules we have in NFL 2015. The Bills score plenty of points this year, especially when the run game is working. Ground and Pound got the Seahawks to back to back Super Bowls, and they would have won the 2nd had they stuck to the Ground and Pound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 It's fine when your defense is playing at a high level. We just don't have that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 It's not the ground and pound, it's the defense. If we we were still 4th in the NFL, led the league in sacks, led in run defense, and was scoring on offense, rushing and deep threat passing like we are today, we would be at 9-3. Remember the defense has the capability like last year to give us great field position with deep sacks where they can't make up for 3-23. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I thought from the many Freddie fans that Freddie is the best we have had since Thurman? Freddie was a good back and a better team mate and person. He is not in the same class talent wise. Did you see last week just before the half where McCoy stayed in bounds and took a hit to keep the clock going? Almost every back allows themselves to get taken out of bounds there. Talent and brains and i think he is warming to playing in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) It's great to see the Bills running game make such giant strides, but the NFL of 2015, with its rules so heavily favoring passing, makes this offensive philosophy problematic. The biggest problem with it is that in general no matter how much your team is dominating the game, this offensive style tends to keep the game close. In a game that is close as the 4th quarter winds down, anything can happen. And with the Bills that is generally a bad thing. Take Sunday's game for example. I listen to Chris Brown and Sal C. go on about how well the Bills played, how great the offensive design was etc etc. True enough, but with all that going for them, and all their talent, playing at home with zero turnovers, this game was TIED with less than two minutes to go. A blown coverage gets them the win, but we all know in that situation ANYTHING could happen, and a tipped ball or fumble could have cost them a game wherein they played so well and dominated. Why? Because a conservative, ground and pound O kept the score close, and even a journeyman QB like Hoyer, behind in the game and forced to air it out, brings them back to a toss up with less than two minutes to go. Doug Marone loved to pound the ball, and loved to tell everybody how important winning the turnover battle was. But check the Bills record under him, and you will see that they lost an inordinate amount of games when they WON the turnover battle, and squeaked out wins when they won that battle by a margin of two or three. Why - because his ground and pound kept the other team close, and an unlucky break or bad last half of fourth quarter cost them games they dominated in turnovers and play. Not dissing the run game, but simply pointing out the downside of that O philosophy, given the rules we have in NFL 2015. I strongly agree! It leaves little room for error in a game where humans make errors. You need to grab the other team by the throat when you can and bury them. Win the game in the first half if you can. I think of it like the coaches are trying to win a game of chess instead of letting the players ein the game.the problem with ground and pound is that offensive lines are rarely good enough to do it anymore. Dallas did it last year... Can you think of any other recent examples where an O line was that dominant?Dallas yes. San Fran recently. Seattle when they had Walter Jones, Steve Hutchison and crew. That line made Shaun Alexander look like a HOF and dominated. It is rare to have an oline that can dominate the entire game, every game. But, that is the exception to the original post. Edited December 9, 2015 by Manther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) hate for facts to get in the way; top rushing Seattle- Tampa- Panthers- Buffalo- Minnesota- Pittsburgh- Chiefs- Arizona- Bengals thats a lot of the teams in the playoffs, or may be soon top passing Patriots-Saints-Arizona-San Diego-Pittsburgh-Atlanta-Giants-Raiders-Lions-Ravens Pats, Cards balanced offense, Pitt balanced offense the rest are done Edited December 9, 2015 by CardinalScotts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Is there a team that has a losing record when they rush for 130 or more? go look it up I thought from the many Freddie fans that Freddie is the best we have had since Thurman? Count me as a fan, I don't know how someone couldn't be. Doesn't mean he's better than McCoy, also doesn't mean Jackson wasn't the best since Thurman until McCoy arrived. It's fine when your defense is playing at a high level. We just don't have that You prefer more passing which typically gives the opposition more offensive plays? Your point doesn't have a point. (IMO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 It's great to see the Bills running game make such giant strides, but the NFL of 2015, with its rules so heavily favoring passing, makes this offensive philosophy problematic. The biggest problem with it is that in general no matter how much your team is dominating the game, this offensive style tends to keep the game close. In a game that is close as the 4th quarter winds down, anything can happen. And with the Bills that is generally a bad thing. Take Sunday's game for example. I listen to Chris Brown and Sal C. go on about how well the Bills played, how great the offensive design was etc etc. True enough, but with all that going for them, and all their talent, playing at home with zero turnovers, this game was TIED with less than two minutes to go. A blown coverage gets them the win, but we all know in that situation ANYTHING could happen, and a tipped ball or fumble could have cost them a game wherein they played so well and dominated. Why? Because a conservative, ground and pound O kept the score close, and even a journeyman QB like Hoyer, behind in the game and forced to air it out, brings them back to a toss up with less than two minutes to go. Doug Marone loved to pound the ball, and loved to tell everybody how important winning the turnover battle was. But check the Bills record under him, and you will see that they lost an inordinate amount of games when they WON the turnover battle, and squeaked out wins when they won that battle by a margin of two or three. Why - because his ground and pound kept the other team close, and an unlucky break or bad last half of fourth quarter cost them games they dominated in turnovers and play. Not dissing the run game, but simply pointing out the downside of that O philosophy, given the rules we have in NFL 2015. you mentioned Marrone. thats points against you right away : ) Controlling the time of possession wins games and seasons. We are living proof. Keeping the defense upon the field is the way to tire them and take advantage. that's how Bills have been beaten. for years and years Not turning the ball over means you control field position, even if you punt. If you could run all day and get more conversions than not? It may or may not be boring. But it could be very effective towards wins. Rex needs to hold the line on Defense to win this battle method. Or create those turnovers. Thats how he rolls. slowly it is coming around. I strongly agree! It leaves little room for error in a game where humans make errors. You need to grab the other team by the throat when you can and bury them. Win the game in the first half if you can. I think of it like the coaches are trying to win a game of chess instead of letting the players ein the game. Dallas yes. San Fran recently. Seattle when they had Walter Jones, Steve Hutchison and crew. That line made Shaun Alexander look like a HOF and dominated. It is rare to have an oline that can dominate the entire game, every game. But, that is the exception to the original post. If you can threaten with the pass, you have something. Defense needs to stay balanced somewhat. O line just needs to be consistent not super. and add TT run to pass threat. now ya really got a conundrum Chip ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Tyrod is 6-0 when the Bills pass 30 times or FEWER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 go look it up Count me as a fan, I don't know how someone couldn't be. Doesn't mean he's better than McCoy, also doesn't mean Jackson wasn't the best since Thurman until McCoy arrived. You prefer more passing which typically gives the opposition more offensive plays? Your point doesn't have a point. (IMO) I was not all aboard with this move initially. while considering this move. i am thinking Roman really does know exactly what he is doing. I was wrong Full on McCoy fan these days. full on. An man oh man , G Ro designs some sweet stuff for him lately. Tyrod is 6-0 when the Bills pass 30 times or FEWER. Yep. Why pass when you can just go beat the snot out of the defense by pushing them around? Luckily for Bills it working lately. O line is and those pass catchers are blocking up a storm. Even Felton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOVABillsFan Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) Tyrod is 6-0 when the Bills pass 30 times or FEWER. I believe the actual stat is 29 times or fewer. Loss to NE game #1 he was 23 for 30, in W over Miami he was 21 for 29. 200 yard rushers in a Loss. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=4042 Going back to 1978, and not including 2009, a team has rushed for 200 or more yards on 1,110 occasions. 135 of those teams lost the game. So, the short answer is, about 12.2% of the time. Is there a team that has a losing record when they rush for 130 or more? http://iqfb.com/league-facts/rushing-for-200-yards-and-still-losing-the-game/ this is the game I remember 2002 – Ricky Williams – Miami Dolphins Ricky Williams carried the ball 27 times for 228 yards and two touchdowns in a 38-21 loss to the Buffalo Bills. Edited December 9, 2015 by NOVABillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog69 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 The main problems with a "Ground and Pound" or run focused offense like the Bills have are: 1.)When you get behind more 2-3 scores in a game. At that point, you need a more pass focused offense and a QB who can scan the field for open receivers. Tyrod hasn't yet proven to be consistently capable of doing this. (Not saying he won't be able to develop this ability, I just haven't seen it enough yet) 2.) The two minute drill. When you get in the last 2 minutes of a close game an need to score, you need to be able to consistently pass the ball. Just like above, Taylor hasn't yet shown the ability to do this consistently. The tempo of the offense is also an issue. They are bad at clock management and slow to get plays in and get to the line of scrimmage. That will need to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOVABillsFan Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) The main problems with a "Ground and Pound" or run focused offense like the Bills have are: 1.)When you get behind more 2-3 scores in a game. At that point, you need a more pass focused offense and a QB who can scan the field for open receivers. Tyrod hasn't yet proven to be consistently capable of doing this. (Not saying he won't be able to develop this ability, I just haven't seen it enough yet) 2.) The two minute drill. When you get in the last 2 minutes of a close game an need to score, you need to be able to consistently pass the ball. Just like above, Taylor hasn't yet shown the ability to do this consistently. The tempo of the offense is also an issue. They are bad at clock management and slow to get plays in and get to the line of scrimmage. That will need to improve. #2 is a concern. I have not, to the best of my recollection, seen an efficient 2 minute drill being run, either at the half or at the end of the game for whatever reason. What exactly is it? Coaching issues, communications issues, player execution??? Edited December 9, 2015 by NOVABillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I think one of the problems getting plays in for 2 minute drills is the size of Roman's playbook. He has a lot of plays. We have heard from multiple sources that nobody has more run plays in their play book than Greg Roman. I assume they have a slimmed down list of plays they want to use inside 2 minutes - but it looks like it could do with reducing even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I think one of the problems getting plays in for 2 minute drills is the size of Roman's playbook. He has a lot of plays. We have heard from multiple sources that nobody has more run plays in their play book than Greg Roman. I assume they have a slimmed down list of plays they want to use inside 2 minutes - but it looks like it could do with reducing even further. That might make sense since it's not just problems in the 2 minute drill. For example, on the deep bomb to Sammy, that was a 1st down play, and the first play of the drive. We KNEW we dialed that play up. But when they hit it, they weren't ready with a follow-up play and had to call a time out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) Most games in the NFL are very close, so close that one or two plays usually determines the outcome of each. Unless a team is good enough to play a wide variety of offensive schemes, they have a vulnerability. The main vulnerability of the ground and pound, like the Bills run, is that it almost always relies on completing deep passes at least a few times a game with a relatively high success rate. I think we all have seen what failing to do so meant in some of the losses. It's also why the Bills took such a big chance on Harvin and gave him the contract they did. They had to have a guy like that opposite Watkins. Just look at how teams are beating the Bills now that he took a powder. The KC game is a perfect example. 1st half: safety help was consistiently late helping the CB covering Wakins (our only deep threat). 2nd half: safety lined up over Wakins with CB playing bump and run on him. Acquiring a deep threat (or two for depth) will be a priority in the offseason. Edited December 9, 2015 by BarleyNY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 The hallmark of good teams is that they can win the close games. I think 90% of NFL coaches would sign up for each of their games to be tied in the fourth quarter with two minutes to go. The pressure is on at that point. It's the fans whose guts are in a knot and their hands clenched in white-knuckled fists that are sweating the outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsmovinup Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Seattle seems to have done OK with this philosophy as has Alabama in college ball. Really don't get these people who insist that the only teams that win are the ones that throw it 90 times a game. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) I, for one, was very worried about our OL this year. Even now, I'll say Henderson hasn't been great and Miller - when healthy - often looked like the rookie he is. And yet Roman has put together a very nice running attack. In fact, despite starting an inexperienced QB, we've been putting up points. There are calls and tendencies that you can question. But, overall, I think we have to be happy with Roman. The offense is doing better than expected while the defense is doing worse. Let's worry about that if we worry about something. Edited December 9, 2015 by hondo in seattle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clearwater cadet Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Marv said, "you use the run to set up the pass.", and I believe Marv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 It's fine when the the backs and linemen stay healthy. But the more you do it, the greater the chance of injuries to your skill players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 @buffalobills Can December "ground and pound" football get you to the playoffs? Rex has done it before: http://bufbills.co/KWQ0mF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonprophet Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Ground & pound It's more like shake & bake with Shady in there & i can't for the life of me figure out why they brought Felton in & paid him what they did because they sure aren't getting much if any return on the money they spent ! Especially in a "Ground & Pound" type scheme i don't know that the guy has been on the field for 30 plays this year has ha ?? And they're not even using him as a halfback when Karlos is injured, promoting a PS guy instead. Is he a fumble machine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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