Big Turk Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 ive seen that comment before and i dont get where its coming from unless theres something structurally im unaware of. is it just a game of telephone where the details got a bit twisted and its simply a case of it spreading out cap hits down the line which they are guaranteed to have to account for if cut. Either way, you can only go to that well so often before it runs dry and their well is very very close to running dry with some of their bad FA deals they've signed the last few years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProcessAccepted Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 From Dolphins board: "What I do like is the fact that by doing nothing but tagging him, the Dolphins force the Bills to overpay him. Will it prevent them from from getting any particular player? Who knows! But it will limit their ability to acquire talent, including a decent QB (that might make that team somewhat dangerous...). With the stroke of a pen, the Dolphins were able to hinder a rival. That I like. The vindictive !@#$ in me would love to keep Clay just to keep him off the Bills, but I know this is really the best move for the Dolphins." LMAO!! They think they screwed us over and hurt us from signing players...hahahaha sorry Fin fans, we actually know how to manage the cap...had no other choice for 20 years... Who cares what they think. I'll remember this when the 2015 Suh cost that they deferred till 2016 kills them next year. They lost a guy they wanted to keep. Signed a replacement who seems to concussion prone. I think the fact the Phins are so concerned about us means they've given up on being the best team in the division and are settling for 3rd. At least we are trying to dethrone the Pats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Either way, you can only go to that well so often before it runs dry and their well is very very close to running dry with some of their bad FA deals they've signed the last few years... i understand - i just feel like as a matter of discussion its nice to get the information accurate. if there is something else id be curious to hear about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooderson Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I haven't read thru every page of this, but I read on Twitter last night that Clay's catches, yards, and TDs from last year would all set season records for a Bills TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 They would have to convince Clay to take the guarenteed money further down the line, such as 2017 or 2018 if they restructure it...good luck with that... Not really. The way it is now if it stays the same, they pay him 10m cash in 2016 for that bonus and it counts 10m against their cap in 2016. If they convert it to signing bonus they still pay 10m cash which he gets right then but the cap hit is only 2.5m for 2016 (for that bonus). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Not really. The way it is now if it stays the same, they pay him 10m cash in 2016 for that bonus and it counts 10m against their cap in 2016. If they convert it to signing bonus they still pay 10m cash which he gets right then but the cap hit is only 2.5m for 2016 (for that bonus). right - where it could hurt them is if they want to cut him in 2017 it would create an extra 7.5m in dead money (on top of whatever would be there from the original signing bonus, and any 2017 guaranteed dollars-likely little to none). i think that is the issue at play here. not some trick that roster bonuses cant be converted (happens often) or if they do it will somehow penalize clay so he would refuse. really, that 10m has a good shot of us converting it next year too, if we need a little wiggle room and clay looks good this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 right - where it could hurt them is if they want to cut him in 2017 it would create an extra 7.5m in dead money (on top of whatever would be there from the original signing bonus, and any 2017 guaranteed dollars-likely little to none). i think that is the issue at play here. not some trick that roster bonuses cant be converted (happens often) or if they do it will somehow penalize clay so he would refuse. really, that 10m has a good shot of us converting it next year too, if we need a little wiggle room and clay looks good this year. Yep. I never heard of roster bonus not being able to be converted. That seems strange. It's possible that if Clay really wants to play for the Bills that his agent tells the Dolphins he won't restructure but I doubt that happens. The Fins are in a bad spot. They probably really want to match but it would be dumb. He's worth more to the Bills than he is to the Fins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Haven't seen one post on Dolphins board saying Miami should match...most say we are overpaying and downplaying how good he is...others say if Dolphins match the front office should be fired for not giving him a better contract offer to prevent this in the fist place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Haven't seen one post on Dolphins board saying Miami should match...most say we are overpaying and downplaying how good he is...others say if Dolphins match the front office should be fired for not giving him a better contract offer to prevent this in the fist place... Same here. I dont think they will match they would get too much backlash from the fans CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Haven't seen one post on Dolphins board saying Miami should match...most say we are overpaying and downplaying how good he is...others say if Dolphins match the front office should be fired for not giving him a better contract offer to prevent this in the fist place...they screwed themselves by misjudging his value around the league. Should have franchised him if they couldn't agree on an extension but they realized that too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Haven't seen one post on Dolphins board saying Miami should match...most say we are overpaying and downplaying how good he is...others say if Dolphins match the front office should be fired for not giving him a better contract offer to prevent this in the fist place... We definitely are overpaying but you can overpay and still be doing the right thing. The Fins matching this contract, to me, would be overpaying and the wrong thing, because of their offense, Jordan Cameron, and their cap situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 #42 is available too. Some things are just meant to happen.... CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 right - where it could hurt them is if they want to cut him in 2017 it would create an extra 7.5m in dead money (on top of whatever would be there from the original signing bonus, and any 2017 guaranteed dollars-likely little to none). i think that is the issue at play here. not some trick that roster bonuses cant be converted (happens often) or if they do it will somehow penalize clay so he would refuse. really, that 10m has a good shot of us converting it next year too, if we need a little wiggle room and clay looks good this year. Wouldn't it depend on what the Bills plan on paying him for this year, in terms of signing bonus vs base salary, if the Bills would convert that $10mm next season? If they pay him a signing bonus this year, then convert the roster bonus next year, they would just be adding to the dead cap amount at the end of the contract, which would be a bit odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Either way, you can only go to that well so often before it runs dry and their well is very very close to running dry with some of their bad FA deals they've signed the last few years... I read somewhere that the Fins have the fourth highest amount of 'dead cap' money in 2015 (I believe around $18 million-plus). That has to factor into their roster budgeting when it comes to need-to-have vs. want-to-have player decisions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) Wouldn't it depend on what the Bills plan on paying him for this year, in terms of signing bonus vs base salary, if the Bills would convert that $10mm next season? If they pay him a signing bonus this year, then convert the roster bonus next year, they would just be adding to the dead cap amount at the end of the contract, which would be a bit odd. its pretty common around the league these days to pencil in the year 2 roster bonus and then a team plan to convert it in order to get players the big money in the first 2 years (to make a deal more appealing than a similar average offer). its what i was saying the saints did all off season when people where saying they were way over the cap, its what the dolphins did with suh.... as long as the guy is in your long term plans, its not crazy... but if he falls out of favor, it can hurt. any time you see the word re-structure, 99% of the time its doing very similar though (just a matter of how early in the deal - but typically early as you dont otherwise have space to spead the hit the other thing to consider is if we are getting a 12m cap hit, odds are we are paying a fat roster bonus, not signing bonus, this year. otherwise it would be amortized down to a lower number than 12m Edited March 18, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 #42 is available too. Some things are just meant to happen.... CBF The Bills already announced Jerome Felton will wear #42, which is the number he wore in Minnesota. Of course, perhaps he can be persuaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 convert the roster bonus next year, they would just be adding to the dead cap amount at the end of the contract. That would be a risk if they cut him in 2017. But if he's at all productive, he'll likely be on the roster 3-4 or more years, which would mitigate the risk. Whaley appears to be a real risk taker, relative to most GMs. Time will tell if that's prudent, but it sure is fun to watch his plan come together... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I haven't read thru every page of this, but I read on Twitter last night that Clay's catches, yards, and TDs from last year would all set season records for a Bills TE. I don't think so. Clay 2014: 58 receptions 605 yards and 3 TDs Metzelaars 1993: 68 receptions 609 yards and 4 TDs. Keith McKeller never came close, neither did Jay Riemersma, nor Mark Brammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) I read somewhere that the Fins have the fourth highest amount of 'dead cap' money in 2015 (I believe around $18 million-plus). That has to factor into their roster budgeting when it comes to need-to-have vs. want-to-have player decisions... They actually have about $26MM in dead cap. Compare that to the Bills $7MM. its pretty common around the league these days to pencil in the year 2 roster bonus and then a team plan to convert it in order to get players the big money in the first 2 years (to make a deal more appealing than a similar average offer). its what i was saying the saints did all off season when people where saying they were way over the cap, its what the dolphins did with suh.... as long as the guy is in your long term plans, its not crazy... but if he falls out of favor, it can hurt. any time you see the word re-structure, 99% of the time its doing very similar though (just a matter of how early in the deal - but typically early as you dont otherwise have space to spead the hit the other thing to consider is if we are getting a 12m cap hit, odds are we are paying a fat roster bonus, not signing bonus, this year. otherwise it would be amortized down to a lower number than 12m I suppose the other problem would be the player doesn't have any guaranteed money in the later part of his contract. So he could hold out. Signing a new deal wouldn't alleviate the signing bonus from the previous contract would it? I suppose all this doesn't really matter if the salary cap is expected to rise as much as it is. Edited March 18, 2015 by Wayne Cubed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) I don't think so. Clay 2014: 58 receptions 605 yards and 3 TDs Metzelaars 1993: 68 receptions 609 yards and 4 TDs. Keith McKeller never came close, neither did Jay Riemersma, nor Mark Brammer. it was 2013 69 catches -- 759 yards and 6 tds Edited March 18, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I don't think so. Clay 2014: 58 receptions 605 yards and 3 TDs Metzelaars 1993: 68 receptions 609 yards and 4 TDs. Keith McKeller never came close, neither did Jay Riemersma, nor Mark Brammer. It was quoted earlier in the thread and it was about his 2013 season not last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Sound off.... Anyone who thinks the Fins WILL NOT match the offer, type "I" I CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santoro770 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 #42 is available too. Isn't this the number that Jerome Felton will be using? - Here's a fun little snippit from a Dolphins fan perspective. In the comments section from http://dailydolphin.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/03/17/miami-dolphins-gamble-with-charles-clay-didnt-have-to-happen/ "How about a little loyalty too, this is not only on the Phins, Clay is playing games, he has been offered reasonable contracts and has not signed. Let him trade South Beach for Buffalo. and the state income tax that comes with playing in NY. OH who is gonna be his QB? Clay may not be a favorite target there. Also the Dolphin's upside ids muchhigher than the bills" - Dophins upside higher than the Bills? - One more good quote from the comments section of the same source - "Rex Ryan will bury Buffalo in bad contracts. I know I am not the only one saying it. The reason Rex is in Buffalo is to sell tickets, not a because he wins, because it is like a circus.Let them overpay for Clay. We will pay a little to much for the right players like Suh." Can't wait to watch McCoy run right by Suh. Was he a factor at all when Buffalo played Detroit in 2014? Great stuff guys, good discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I suppose the other problem would be the player doesn't have any guaranteed money in the later part of his contract. So he could hold out. Signing a new deal wouldn't alleviate the signing bonus from the previous contract would it? they could, but after what they gave him the first couple years hed be a real jerk. its happened but its not common. and with the high dead money, it practically guarantees dollars past the actual guarantee as you wouldnt cut him. and no, once you pay a guy the signing bonus, you dont get to just forget that money even if you restructure. you have to account for it at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) Sound off.... Anyone who thinks the Fins WILL NOT match the offer, type "I" I Sound off.... I 2 Edited March 18, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Sound off.... I 2 3, 4 CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Overpaying is not necessarily a bad thing as long as you don't do it all the time. If we offered a market-value contract to every FA we wanted, we wouldn't sign many. Some team or another is usually willing to overpay a name FA. So to be competitive, you sometimes have to overpay a few FAs while searching for value elsewhere. It's like going to a fast food restaurant. You might order a few things from the value menu but you might also overpay for one of the premium items to get the meal you really want. The bottom line is the Bills have a lot of talent on offense, defense and special teams and stayed under the same salary cap that Miami, and every other team, has to fit under. Overall, we seem to be spending wisely. If we could only find a QB to spend on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 @RQUINN619: 2015 NFL Free Agency: What Does Charles Clay Bring to #Bills Offense? http://t.co/fL6mXi6THmvia @TheBillsMafia http://t.co/G59bv0B5uw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Can we start a poll now about who thinks the Fins will match the Bills offer? CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Can't wait to watch McCoy run right by Suh. Was he a factor at all when Buffalo played Detroit in 2014? Great stuff guys, good discussion! Good question, and Im glad you asked it because for the past month or so Ive been under the impression that Suh was out for the Bills game and didnt play. I decided to finally go look it up, and sure enough, he did play in the Bills game! But was a complete non-factor. 3 Tackles, 2 Assts and only 1 of those being a stuff. And that was against last year's offensive line. Totally not worried about him now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Can we start a poll now about who thinks the Fins will match the Bills offer? CBF K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Good question, and Im glad you asked it because for the past month or so Ive been under the impression that Suh was out for the Bills game and didnt play. I decided to finally go look it up, and sure enough, he did play in the Bills game! But was a complete non-factor. 3 Tackles, 2 Assts and only 1 of those being a stuff. And that was against last year's offensive line. Totally not worried about him now. I almost think that Orton ran into him for the sack, but could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I almost think that Orton ran into him for the sack, but could be wrong. The probability of this is quite high Chris Brown @ChrisBrownBills 9m9 minutes ago Deadline for Miami to match #Bills offer sheet for Clay is Sunday night - midnight - going into Monday morning. http://ow.ly/KuEmT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills Fan in MD Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Can we start a poll now about who thinks the Fins will match the Bills offer? CBF Or one about how long the Dolphins will take to announce a decision. To me, it's a lock that they make the Bills wait every second possible before announcing a decision. In fact, and assuming they don't match, do they even have to do anything? I realize that it would probably be good form to put out a statement announcing they don't intend to match (and thanking Clay for his time in Miami), but is that technically required? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanM.D. Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 The probability of this is quite high Chris Brown @ChrisBrownBills 9m9 minutes ago Deadline for Miami to match #Bills offer sheet for Clay is Sunday night - midnight - going into Monday morning. http://ow.ly/KuEmT It's all part of Miami's scheme to cause our front office to lose sleep....or so they'll say in South Florida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 @RQUINN619: 2015 NFL Free Agency: What Does Charles Clay Bring to #Bills Offense? http://t.co/fL6mXi6THmvia @TheBillsMafia http://t.co/G59bv0B5uw Quinn must have had that sitting and waiting for the perfect moment. Seriously, some of those moves are sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Isn't this the number that Jerome Felton will be using? - Here's a fun little snippit from a Dolphins fan perspective. In the comments section from http://dailydolphin.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/03/17/miami-dolphins-gamble-with-charles-clay-didnt-have-to-happen/ "How about a little loyalty too, this is not only on the Phins, Clay is playing games, he has been offered reasonable contracts and has not signed. Let him trade South Beach for Buffalo. and the state income tax that comes with playing in NY. OH who is gonna be his QB? Clay may not be a favorite target there. Also the Dolphin's upside ids muchhigher than the bills" - Dophins upside higher than the Bills? Yeh property taxes are higher, but if Clay is raising a family, NY schools are that much better. Services are better unless you are an old person, so the tax argument has two sides. Also sales taxes in FL make up for a lot of the disparity in income and property taxes. Also there are many right offs on Fed from State taxes that he can take advantage of. IMO the reason I am in NY now is because I have kids. When I retire, I will move south to a lower income tax state. Just the way it should work and they can take care of my oldness through medicaid and medicare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt in KC Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Overpaying is not necessarily a bad thing as long as you don't do it all the time. If we offered a market-value contract to every FA we wanted, we wouldn't sign many. Some team or another is usually willing to overpay a name FA. So to be competitive, you sometimes have to overpay a few FAs while searching for value elsewhere. It's like going to a fast food restaurant. You might order a few things from the value menu but you might also overpay for one of the premium items to get the meal you really want. The bottom line is the Bills have a lot of talent on offense, defense and special teams and stayed under the same salary cap that Miami, and every other team, has to fit under. Overall, we seem to be spending wisely. If we could only find a QB to spend on. I like the analogy! People regularly overpay for soft drinks (like free agents) because they are focused, rightly, on the overall meal (team), not each item on the menu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l< j Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Sound off.... Anyone who thinks the Fins WILL NOT match the offer, type "I" I CBF Sound off.... I 2 I don't think that's a 1, but a lowercase 'L'. As in Lupati. kj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I read somewhere that the Fins have the fourth highest amount of 'dead cap' money in 2015 (I believe around $18 million-plus). That has to factor into their roster budgeting when it comes to need-to-have vs. want-to-have player decisions... It's almost $27 million actually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts