Beerball Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Brandon on Jan 2, 2013: "Buddy Nix will be the general manager for a long, long time" I've got some more reading to do, but, this isn't exactly a whopper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Well...It's not just Carpenter they're after...And I get the feeling that they have talked about the big things (Littmann, Overdorf, Berchtold) and got met with less-than-favorable answers...That's frustrating enough when you are in charge and ultimately responsible for the on-the-field results...Then when they wanted to change out something that was much less significant like the training staff, and were met with the same push-back, they decided enough was enough...That's just my guess... Carpenter was the guy who was mentioned in TG's first blog on the matter yesterday. It seemed gratuitously harsh to me. As I recall, at the end of the blog, TG threw in that the Bills have not made the playoffs in 14 years or words to that effect. As I mentioned above, I have no use for Littman - ever since his role in Polian leaving. Regarding Overdorf, I have no vested interest - I just do not see that he has much authority. I am pretty sure he is given the financial parameters and tries to negotiate deals within the parameters. Berchtold also has nothing to do with the Bills not going to the playoff. He is the guy in charge of communications for the Bills and has nothing to do with the on field product. I would not be surprised if this piece (and perhaps the rest) is made up given that the local media seems to have an adversary relationship with the Bills (and Sabres for that matter). As for Russ, I like him and think that it is good that a guy from the area is in charge - which makes it more likely that the Bills will stay in Buffalo. Edited February 24, 2014 by Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Big Cat, who are you in relation to Brandon or who are you on the Bills staff. Only someone who works for him and drinks his Koolaid or is a family Member would ignore what a flat out liar and ralph Wilson clone he is. The guy hasn't fixed jack ****. So far nothing has changed. First step is to do what the GM And HC are asking you to do, punt kick this old ass who is way behind the times in treatment practices of players and lets move on. Personally I don't have much of an opinion about Brandon. He did hire that coach and GM you talk about though. What are the lies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Carpenter was the guy who was mentioned in TG's first blog on the matter yesterday. It seemed gratuitously harsh to me. As I recall, at the end of the blog, TG threw in that the Bills have not made the playoffs in 14 years or words to that effect. As I mentioned above, I have no use for Littman - ever since his role in Polian leaving. Regarding Overdorf, I have no vested interest - I just do not see that he has much authority. I am pretty sure he is given the financial parameters and tries to negotiate deals within the parameters. Berchtold also has nothing to do with the Bills not going to the playoff. He is the guy in charge of communications for the Bills and has nothing to do with the on field product. I would not be surprised if this piece (and perhaps the rest) is made up given that the local media seems to have an adversary relationship with the Bills (and Sabres for that matter). As for Russ, I like him and think that it is good that a guy from the area is in charge - which makes it more likely that the Bills will stay in Buffalo. I also like the fact that Brandon is from the area, however, the new owner will determine if Bills stay or go and unless Brandon turns this team's fortunes around on-the-field,, before there is an ownership change, he will be one of the first that is either fired or his power is stripped and he's back to being a marketing guy for the team. Edited February 24, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Nice list, but isn't success on-field measured in wins ? How do you feel about the changes he has made in the past year? Marrone? Whaley? If you like those choices then you give it time. If you don't like those choices then nothing said will make any difference to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Nice list, but isn't success on-field measured in wins ? and the guys he hired have (presumably) made noise that members of the organization not-named-Brandon are the ones standing in the way of that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsguy Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I'm never happy about anyone losing their job... Why would any professional team not want to be on the cutting edge in this area? Exactly! I favor an update in this area. Some people still think you can "shake off" a concussion or "rub dirt on it" to fix everything. It's 2014, not 1974. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) How do you feel about the changes he has made in the past year? Marrone? Whaley? If you like those choices then you give it time. If you don't like those choices then nothing said will make any difference to you. I liked the hires of Marrone and Whaley at the time, and still do. I liked the extension of Wood. I do not like the fact that Levitre and Byrd were not signed to extensions. I didn't like the way they dealt with Fitz contract and the dead money being spread into 2014. I don't like the fact that he re-upped the Toronto series and is continuing it (as far as we all know). So, on balance, over the past year, there are more negatives than positives. That isn't counting the issues that pre-date his declaration that he was "in complete charge" Edited February 24, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) A couple thoughts that have popped into my dome because of this thread: - Overdorf and Littman are obviously the de facto co-GMs. This makes me want to reassess the string of bad GMs we have had, because maybe they were handcuffed. -Someone asked why TG would be approached with this information. It is perfect. Very few people take him seriously, so the public might not believe it, but the people inside are still embarrassed by the report. Edited February 24, 2014 by sodbuster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 A couple thoughts that have popped into my dome because of this thread: - Overdorf and Littman are obviously the de facto co-GMs. This makes me want to reassess the string of bad GMs we have had, because maybe they were handcuffed. -Someone asked why TG would be approached with this information. It is perfect. Very few people take him seriously, so the public might not believe it, but the people inside are still embarrassed by the report. Oh, the motivation for airing these grievances is very legit. Putting Sr. VP's and the media guy in a bad light in the city's major daily sends a DIRECT message. There aren't a lot of dots to connect for why Marrone/Whaley would float this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) I liked the hires of Marrone and Whaley at the time, and still do. I liked the extension of Wood. I do not like the fact that Levitre and Byrd were not signed to extensions. I didn't like the way they dealt with Fitz contract and the dead money being spread into 2014. I don't like the fact that he re-upped the Toronto series and is continuing it (as far as we all know). So, on balance, over the past year, there are more negatives than positives. That isn't counting the issues that pre-date his declaration that he was "in complete charge" I'm happy the team moved on from Fitzpatrick. No good would have come from retaining him. They had room under the cap last season and they most likely will this (when all is said and done). I can't put Wood or Byrd in his lap. For me they belong to Whaley and/or the bean counters. Just like you don't blame a Fortune 500 CEO for the hiring/firing of low level managers you shouldn't put it on Brandon IMO. Edited February 24, 2014 by Beerball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I don't think it matters if you have an old school trainer or a a cutting-edge training staff & equipment, when you have 200-300lb freakishly agile athletes hitting each other at high speeds, injuries are bound to happen. Nagging injuries are bound to happen as well. I believe it was the year Pegula installed all those hyperbolic chambers and crap that the Sabres set some sort of record for man-games missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
808 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 and the guys he hired have (presumably) made noise that members of the organization not-named-Brandon are the ones standing in the way of that... i like the hires but if you hire a guy and then do not support the guy the guys you hire it is a recipe for failure. we don't know if its true or not yet. but you could hire bill belicheat at this point and have these kinda rumors be true and fail. if the FO isn't behind the GM/HC 100% then its pretty much failure waiting to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 What is there to discuss here? I can't believe the amount of people rushing to protect these guys. Over the last 14 years of futility the Bills have replaced numerous players, coaches and GMs and that's gotten us nowhere. It's way past the time we start weeding out the guys on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I don't think it matters if you have an old school trainer or a a cutting-edge training staff & equipment, when you have 200-300lb freakishly agile athletes hitting each other at high speeds, injuries are bound to happen. Nagging injuries are bound to happen as well. I believe it was the year Pegula installed all those hyperbolic chambers and crap that the Sabres set some sort of record for man-games missed. This makes my top 10 things said on tbd that I disagree with list. It most certainly does. Maintenance and preparation of these athlete's bodies allows them to be much more healthy if done correctly. Look at some of the things Chip Kelly implemented in Philly and listen to what McCoy has to say about them. For a different sport look at the Phoenix Suns training staff. They are widely recognized as the best in all of sports and they routinely have great recovery and low injury count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I'm happy the team moved on from Fitzpatrick. No good would have come from retaining him. They had room under the cap last season and they most likely will this. I can't put Wood or Byrd in his lap. For me they belong to Whaley and/or the bean counters. Just like you don't blame a Fortune 500 CEO for the hiring/firing of low level managers you shouldn't put it on Brandon IMO. If Brandon can't tell Littman and Overdorf what to do, he shouldn't have the title of President / CEO next to his name. I agree on moving on from Fitz, but who made the decision in first place to give him that extension ? Littman, Nix, Brandon, Overdorf ? What's the saying, "success has a thousand fathers but defeat is an orphan" --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) I don't think it matters if you have an old school trainer or a a cutting-edge training staff & equipment, when you have 200-300lb freakishly agile athletes hitting each other at high speeds, injuries are bound to happen. Nagging injuries are bound to happen as well. I believe it was the year Pegula installed all those hyperbolic chambers and crap that the Sabres set some sort of record for man-games missed. obviously injuries will still happen, and some of them very bad. some years you might even see a lot of them. but im not sure how anyone could ever argue quality of care doesnt effect health both preventative and recovery over the long haul. Edited February 24, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I think Marrone is, like a lot of college HCs who go to the NFL struggling with lack of power as compared to what they have as the head of a college program. This is also going on with Harbaugh and has affected Schiano, Saban, and others. Pete Carroll doesn't deal with it because he is also in a high level personnel role along with being the HC. This is why Jim Tressel took a phone call from the Browns but didn't interview, because of Banner's control shield. Maybe he thought he could affect change with Whaley and it hasn't happened fast enough for whatever reason, but these struggles exist in many organizations. The positive is that Whaley and Marrone are on the same page. I don't know what Russ told them coming in, if he is trying to get where he said he would, and what the other side of the story is. I hope it gets worked out - the proverbial ball is in Russ's court to either smooth things out or make changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 This makes my top 10 things said on tbd that I disagree with list. It most certainly does. Maintenance and preparation of these athlete's bodies allows them to be much more healthy if done correctly. Look at some of the things Chip Kelly implemented in Philly and listen to what McCoy has to say about them. For a different sport look at the Phoenix Suns training staff. They are widely recognized as the best in all of sports and they routinely have great recovery and low injury count. I'll definitely give you the Suns. Case in point, Steve Nash. As for Philly, of course the players will react differently for the new methods being introduced. Why criticize the ways of an ambitious, new coach. But wouldn't anyone be in better condition w/o Reid's Taco Tuesdays and pizza days. I'll admit, I have no numbers to back up my assumption. And it's merely just that. But after pursuing other team's message boards throughout the years, this situation/discussion is not native to the Bills by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 What is there to discuss here? I can't believe the amount of people rushing to protect these guys. Over the last 14 years of futility the Bills have replaced numerous players, coaches and GMs and that's gotten us nowhere. It's way past the time we start weeding out the guys on top. I don't remember anyone saying anything nice (or even close to it) about Littmann, Overdorf or Berchtold. Please point out these many posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 obviously injuries will still happen, and some of them very bad. some years you might even see a lot of them. but im not sure how anyone could ever argue quality of care doesnt effect health both preventative and recovery over the long haul. You're correct. I just fail to believe that the care these guys are getting are decades behind the times. I could be wrong. But like I mentioned before, the Sabres injury numbers didn't curtail overnight with the introduction of all their new training methods and equipment. I'm just envisioning Carpenter being the fall guy for the likes of Littman and Overdorf and I don't like that one bit. I suppose my argument has more to do with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Kind of a fascinating situation, really. Now that this is out there, it really needs to be addressed by someone in the FO. Otherwise, the fans are going to believe that Whaley and Marrone are working with one hand tied behind their backs, and who's going to support that? Especially after last year's pronouncement that Brandon's the one overseeing everything. Will he just ignore this and hope it goes away? Will he try to spin it differently? Will he take action? All avenues have some sort of repercussion, it would seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 If Brandon can't tell Littman and Overdorf what to do, he shouldn't have the title of President / CEO next to his name. I agree on moving on from Fitz, but who made the decision in first place to give him that extension ? Littman, Nix, Brandon, Overdorf ? What's the saying, "success has a thousand fathers but defeat is an orphan" --- Just like a CEO takes high level hiring/firing to the board so must Brandon take Littmann and Overdorf to Ralph (if he so chooses). We may find out some very important things about Brandon and his standing with the team over the next couple weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Just like a CEO takes high level hiring/firing to the board so must Brandon take Littmann and Overdorf to Ralph (if he so chooses). We may find out some very important things about Brandon and his standing with the team over the next couple weeks. Do we know how mentally capable Ralph is these days? Can you imagine a situation where if Ralph can't answer for himself there will be a standoff between the Overdorf/Littman axis claiming to speak for Ralph and the Brandon/Marrone/Whaley axis? PTR Edited February 24, 2014 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Do we know how mentally capable Ralph is these days? Can you imagine a situation where if Ralph can't answer for himself there will be a standoff between the Overdorf/Littman axis claiming to speak for Ralph and the Brandon/Marrone/Whaley axis? PTR that's some drawn straws but dang if it couldn't come down to that. By accounts here and in the media Ralph is fit as a fiddle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Brandon is the President/CEO of the Bills but Litmann controls Ralph's overall finances. It is like being the president of the news division of NBC. You are still at the mercy of the people at corporate. Littman is in charge, always had Ralph's ear and probably always will. Brandon is more than a figure head, but less than a final authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Do we know how mentally capable Ralph is these days? Can you imagine a situation where if Ralph can't answer for himself there will be a standoff between the Overdorf/Littman axis claiming to speak for Ralph and the Brandon/Marrone/Whaley axis? PTR Hopefully this is when Brandon would use his executive authority and can those corncobs. But I envision Littman and Overdorf having get-out-of-jail cards they'll pull out at the last second negating any attempt to remove them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 You're correct. I just fail to believe that the care these guys are getting are decades behind the times. I could be wrong. But like I mentioned before, the Sabres injury numbers didn't curtail overnight with the introduction of all their new training methods and equipment. I'm just envisioning Carpenter being the fall guy for the likes of Littman and Overdorf and I don't like that one bit. I suppose my argument has more to do with this. ill say its probably not as extreme as some might paint, and even if hes not cutting edge hes likely a reasonable medical professional still.... of course every team thinks their injuries are the worst, and few if any fans can grasp their teams vs whats around the league - yet alone if one trainers recovery times are 5% quicker on muscle related injuries, or with 3% lower reinjury rate. its not so much a light switch effect as much as a long term investment where if you keep the best around itll hopefully pay off. that both byrd and mario seemed to take some variety of issue with treatment the last two years, and now rumblings are coming up again.... its set some questions in my head but im not gathering up my pitchfork either -truly, its a bit beyond our area of knowledge as fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KollegeStudnet Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Didn't Polian call out Littman and Overdorf before? I was 7 when all the Polian stuff came down, but reading this article, I want to say it's somewhat similar to what's going on with Whaley and the FO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Kind of a fascinating situation, really. Now that this is out there, it really needs to be addressed by someone in the FO. Otherwise, the fans are going to believe that Whaley and Marrone are working with one hand tied behind their backs, and who's going to support that? Especially after last year's pronouncement that Brandon's the one overseeing everything. Will he just ignore this and hope it goes away? Will he try to spin it differently? Will he take action? All avenues have some sort of repercussion, it would seem. Gonna be interesting.... ....only in Buffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Gonna be interesting.... ....only in Buffalo i wouldnt go that far.... whether it be the dysfunction within our division in miami and NY, or the rumors that even on a successful team in san fran that coach and GM are no longer on speaking terms.... lots of egos fighting for their share out there. we will see what this amounts to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Gonna be interesting.... ....only in Buffalo No, not just in B-lo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 People are guessing this was leaked by Marrone or Whaley. What if it was leaked by Brandon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I would love to hear from Kelly the Dog on this - he's often the voice of reason on these types of issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Brandon is supposed to be President and CEO and in HIS words from HIS press conference, Ralph told him "He told me he was passing the torch to me to run the franchise in totality. He has granted me full authority to run the franchise with zero restrictions and zero limitations." --- If this is the case, Brandon, like a good CEO would set the strategy and responsibilities for Littman, Whaley, Overdorf etc -- so, he is either complicit or incompetent, take your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 People are guessing this was leaked by Marrone or Whaley. What if it was leaked by Brandon? That thought crossed my mind. Just a funny thought, what if it was Marrones dog? He's probably sick of the lonely nights after losing efforts. Gets on the phone with TG. I mean, it would make sense that his source is a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 People are guessing this was leaked by Marrone or Whaley. What if it was leaked by Brandon? Perhaps it was Pettine's daughter . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Do we know how mentally capable Ralph is these days? Can you imagine a situation where if Ralph can't answer for himself there will be a standoff between the Overdorf/Littman axis claiming to speak for Ralph and the Brandon/Marrone/Whaley axis? PTR Until we see otherwise, it's Marrone/Whaley vs. Brandon/Littman/Overdorf(aka Ralph's stooges). Ralph may not be calling the direct shots anymore, but standard operating procedures at OBD have never changed. When it comes to the bottom line, everything is set up exactly the way he wants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) timmah is on twitter answering some questions - i normally avoid it but in an effort to wrap my head around this story i peeked. some tidbits dropped amongst his normal nonsense. in response to a question about Littman and Overdorff being defacto co-GMs: Tim Graham @ByTimGraham 50m @slcrubes That's probably not entirely fair, but they have significant control over football matters Whaley does not. And I highly doubt it RT @danmetzger any chance of an organizational shakeup as a result of this? also Benjamin Kota @benjaminkota 15h @ByTimGraham who in the org has the final say to fire the old guard? Tim Graham @ByTimGraham @benjaminkota Ralph, technically. But probably Jeff Littmann. and of course a bunch of jabs at people, such as these: So I've reached a new low. A guy who runs a sportscard shop an sells figurines is mocking me for not being able to get women. #Buffalove Trying to rag on people with your business account. That's the joke. Go sort some Paul Gaustad rookies, Mr. Grown Up. Edited February 24, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Tim Graham reported "team sources" not people outside the organization. Fabricating sources is unethical and can get a reporter terminated, ruining their career. For all we know this could be coming from a pissed off janitor who's tired of trying to scrub urine smell out of the conference room chairs from all the cranky inconvenient fossils at OBD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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