Bills coaches want to move on from training staff, FO dysfunction

[The Big Cat]

 

 

The awkwardness coming from him not writing the reporter's articles for them.

 

I used to work in PR/PA...that's pretty much how it works. I've had reporters of MAJOR dailies print things nearly verbatim as they came from our shop.

 

Sports reporting is like that on steroids.

[C.Biscuit97]

Do people really believe Graham has Bills "sources" any more? i think he has burned a lot of bridges. When's the last time someone from the local media broke a Bills story before the a national reporter? I'd take everything that comes out of the Buffalo News (with the exception of Mark Gaughan) with a huge grain of salt?

Edited February 24, 2014 by C.Biscuit97

[Justice]

The trainer of the year, Kevin O'Neill, has become available recently. Maybe the Bills want this guy, even though he took part in the Martin fiasco in Miami.

[Coach Tuesday]

My point is, in the big picture Berchtold doesn't matter. The other 2 are a problem and they have been for a very long time. I liken Berchtold to a pimple on the ass. It may bother you a bit, but you can live with it. The other 2 are cancer (IMO).

 

 

Edit...if it helps Brandon to "save" Berchtold while cutting the other 2...then I'm all for it.

 

Beerball, you can remain dug in there if you like, but I'd encourage you to think about it some more. The issue with Berchtold is transparency and accountability - both of which are important to "changing the culture" as Marrone likes to put it. Yes he has the least impact of the on-the-field outcome, but this is about a bigger and deeper concern. We have heard for years that big name coaches have avoided coming here (and one of our coaches actually quit!), in part because they are concerned about being undermined and embarassed by upper-management. Berchtold's role is important to that aspect of things.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Coach Tuesday

[The Big Cat]

My point is, in the big picture Berchtold doesn't matter. The other 2 are a problem and they have been for a very long time. I liken Berchtold to a pimple on the ass. It may bother you a bit, but you can live with it. The other 2 are cancer (IMO).

 

 

Edit...if it helps Brandon to "save" Berchtold while cutting the other 2...then I'm all for it.

 

Agreed, but I think this ARTICLE is the pimple and it's a cancerous lump for everyone to see. Detection is the first step in recovery.

[Beerball]

Do people really believe Graham has Bills "sources" any more? i think he has burned a lot of bridges.

His future depends on it.

 

How does this play out for you...Parker calls Graham and tells him..."hey, we can't get anywhere with the Bills because of the unholy triumvirate." Graham goes to the 2 Dougs and says...this is what I hear...

 

Doesn't it serve them well to make their case public?

 

Detection is the first step in recovery.

110% agree

[C.Biscuit97]

His future depends on it.

 

How does this play out for you...Parker calls Graham and tells him..."hey, we can't get anywhere with the Bills because of the unholy triumvirate." Graham goes to the 2 Dougs and says...this is what I hear...

 

Doesn't it serve them well to make their case public?

 

110% agree

 

Fair point. However if I was a GM, I would never tell the media a thing. Especially a guy like Graham who seems like he is dying to make a name for himself.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I used to work in PR/PA...that's pretty much how it works. I've had reporters of MAJOR dailies print things nearly verbatim as they came from our shop.

 

Sports reporting is like that on steroids.

 

Yep. On the other hand, I'm not sure anyone would write an article putting himself directly in the cross-hairs. That's all I was saying, BC.

[Jerry Jabber]

Is Russ Brandon a puppet CEO? Are the puppetmasters Littmann, Overdorf, and Berchtold? It could seem that Russ’ huffing and puffing he did about leaving no stone unturned in making the Bills a winner last year when he was named the CEO was just another marketing scheme.

[BillsVet]

His future depends on it.

 

How does this play out for you...Parker calls Graham and tells him..."hey, we can't get anywhere with the Bills because of the unholy triumvirate." Graham goes to the 2 Dougs and says...this is what I hear...

 

That doesn't explain why the first story came out with regard to the training staff. That's got nothing to do with Parker.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Fair point. However if I was a GM, I would never tell the media a thing. Especially a guy like Graham who seems like he is dying to make a name for himself.

 

yea - even if i was going to, im still having a hard time wrapping my head around "alright guys, we are going to make a big play to try and blow up the old guard, can someone DM tim graham on twitter to fill him in?" but i guess you could find advantages of using timmah, potentially.

[Dawgg]

Do people really believe Graham has Bills "sources" any more? i think he has burned a lot of bridges. When's the last time someone from the local media broke a Bills story before the a national reporter? I'd take everything that comes out of the Buffalo News (with the exception of Mark Gaughan) with a huge grain of salt?

Tim Graham may be annoying, but make no mistake: he has sources -- reporting something that significant with no sources would be a major breach of ethics that would inevitably catch up to him. He has been around long enough not to make an idiotic mistake like that.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Dawgg

[NoSaint]

 

Tim Graham may be annoying, but make no mistake: he has sources -- reporting something that significant with no sources would be a major breach of ethics that would inevitably catch up to him. He has been around long enough not to make an idiotic mistake like that.

 

 

yea but i think C. Biscuit is questioning whether graham is the guy on whaley/marrones speed dial for anonymous info to get floated. surely someone spoke to him though.

[Beerball]

Beerball, you can remain dug in there if you like, but I'd encourage you to think about it some more. The issue with Berchtold is transparency and accountability - both of which are important to "changing the culture" as Marrone likes to put it. Yes he has the least impact of the on-the-field outcome, but this is about a bigger and deeper concern. We have heard for years that big name coaches have avoided coming here (and one of our coaches actually quit!), in part because they are concerned about being undermined and embarassed by upper-management. Berchtold's role is important to that aspect of things.

Let me try it this way...this is Brandon's first true test. He has people in his organization stating publicly that it's dysfunctional. Maybe Brandon feels that he can't get 3 firings past Ralph. Maybe he thinks that he can go to Ralph and support Berchtold, but, at the expense of Littmann & Overdorf. To me that's a win.

 

To put it yet another way...if you could get rid of 2 of the 3 which 2 would you choose?

 

That doesn't explain why the first story came out with regard to the training staff. That's got nothing to do with Parker.

Agree, and it doesn't have to.

[Dawgg]

yea but i think C. Biscuit is questioning whether graham is the guy on whaley/marrones speed dial for anonymous info to get floated. surely someone spoke to him though.

Seriously doubt it's Whaley or Marrone. But it doesn't have to be. His article states that scouts and coaches share this feeling. Scouts are in regular contact with Whaley. Coaches are in regular contact with Marrone. I think dots can be connected here with little room for the skepticism that Biscuit seems to have.

[Sisyphean Bills]

yea but i think C. Biscuit is questioning whether graham is the guy on whaley/marrones speed dial for anonymous info to get floated. surely someone spoke to him though.

 

A reporter's job is to get people to talk. And, people talk. And, Tim Graham is a reporter.

 

Just sayin'.

[YoloinOhio]

Let me try it this way...this is Brandon's first true test. He has people in his organization stating publicly that it's dysfunctional. Maybe Brandon feels that he can't get 3 firings past Ralph. Maybe he thinks that he can go to Ralph and support Berchtold, but, at the expense of Littmann & Overdorf. To me that's a win.

 

To put it yet another way...if you could get rid of 2 of the 3 which 2 would you choose?

 

Agree, and it doesn't have to.

This has to burn Russ like nothing else, no? He is a PR guy by nature.

[C.Biscuit97]

Seriously doubt it's Whaley or Marrone. But it doesn't have to be. His article states that scouts and coaches share this feeling. Scouts are in regular contact with Whaley. Coaches are in regular contact with Marrone. I think dots can be connected here with little room for the skepticism that Biscuit seems to have.

 

Again, what's the last story a Buffalo News reporter has broken? If his sources are as you say, why hasn't he broken any stories?

 

I used to like Graham but he has become thin skinned and seems to relish stirring up things.

 

And if there really is a leak, if I'm the Gm (hopefully in a few year ), someone is losing their job.

Edited February 24, 2014 by C.Biscuit97

[NoSaint]

 

 

Again, what's the last story a Buffalo News reporter has broken? If his sources are as you say, why hasn't he broken any stories?

 

I used to like Graham but he has become thin skinned and seems to relish stirring up things.

 

And if there really is a leak, if I'm the Gm (hopefully in a few year ), someone is losing their job.

 

if for no other reason, for choosing graham over a reasonable and professional reporter to partner with.

[RealityCheck]

Who is to say this dynamic was not part of Pettine's desire to leave for Cleveland, or that he hasn't leaked some of this stuff himself. He left quite the oil slick on his way out of New York. These stories have emerged during the combine.

[BADOLBILZ]

It is so weird that we can read the same piece and come away with 2 completely different takes. To me this says that those people are right. Instead of just going with it as we have seen Jauron and Gailey do, they are directly questioning and challenging it. You even say as much in your first paragraph.

 

I agree completely that these guys are the problem. Littman and Overdorf have been around for a looooonnng time and had success 20+ years ago in a non salary cap era. The only thing they have been successful at lately is lining Ralph's pockets. Marrone and Whaley are actually interested in winning and that does not coincide with the make as much money as possible ideology that has been par for the course for quite some time here.

 

If there is going to be real change it will start now. Obviously, it hasn't happened yet. It didn't happen when Russ replaced the scapegoats last year. Marrone came in talking about what he was going to do and the bosses didn't think it applied to them. They are the epitome of unaccountable. If they were held accountable they would have been fired long ago.

[C.Biscuit97]

Who is to say this dynamic was not part of Pettine's desire to leave for Cleveland, or that he hasn't leaked some of this stuff himself. He left quite the oil slick on his way out of New York. These stories have emerged during the combine.

 

I seriously doubt that and it would reflect terrible on MP. The Bills helped him get a head coaching job. Why would there be any bitterness on his part?

[YoloinOhio]

Who is to say this dynamic was not part of Pettine's desire to leave for Cleveland, or that he hasn't leaked some of this stuff himself. He left quite the oil slick on his way out of New York. These stories have emerged during the combine.

I don't think this has anything to do with that, seeing as when he went to Cleveland they had this situation on steroids with Banner.

[The Big Cat]

Again, what's the last story a Buffalo News reporter has broken? If his sources are as you say, why hasn't he broken any stories?

 

I used to like Graham but he has become thin skinned and seems to relish stirring up things.

 

And if there really is a leak, if I'm the Gm (hopefully in a few year ), someone is losing their job.

 

it's an awfully big whopper if TG's just trolling. The kind that would cost a guy his career (as has been said in this thread already).

[BuffaloBillsForever]

I look at this front office mutiny as a good thing. We have people currently in the organization that are coming to realization what informed fans knew a decade ago.

Edited February 24, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever

[seq004]

Mr. Pantiesinabunch Graham has a story this morning that Bills coaches would like to move on from Bud Carpenter and his "old school" training staff because their methodologies are "behind the times". I say the proof is in the pudding and get on with it. However the story suggests the front office is not behind the potential move. Who wins out?

Bud has been great, but thank God D&D are finally trying to change the culture at OBD!

[NoSaint]

Who is to say this dynamic was not part of Pettine's desire to leave for Cleveland, or that he hasn't leaked some of this stuff himself. He left quite the oil slick on his way out of New York. These stories have emerged during the combine.

 

would be shocked by that one

[boyst]

Question. Simply asked.

 

Is whoever the source is "accountable?"

 

Is there any reason to believe he is on Marrone's inner circle?

[The Big Cat]

Question. Simply asked.

 

Is whoever the source is "accountable?"

 

Is there any reason to believe he is on Marrone's inner circle?

 

yes x 2

[Dawgg]

Again, what's the last story a Buffalo News reporter has broken? If his sources are as you say, why hasn't he broken any stories?

 

I used to like Graham but he has become thin skinned and seems to relish stirring up things.

 

And if there really is a leak, if I'm the Gm (hopefully in a few year ), someone is losing their job.

 

No doubt -- local news hasn't broken many stories of late, in large part because Berchtold runs a tight ship and only rewards national reporters in order to curry favor. That said, it has been pretty obvious to me that Tim Graham has some sources within the organization. Nothing he has reported has been ground-breaking, but he has been able to provide a little bit more "color" than his counterparts of late.

 

The second factor that I think you are overlooking: this is a different coaching staff. These are younger coaches who come from winning organizations and are used to having their way. Same can't be said about Gaileys and Jaurons of the world. As a result of this dynamic, some coaches are more willing to talk than previous regimes were in the past.

 

The combination of the above two factors is what led to this report, which I think is 100% accurate.

 

It's very weird that Jim Overdorf and Russ Brandon are the ones talking to and negotiating with agents at the scouting combine when Whaley has the title of GM. Clearly Overdorf has defacto GM powers and it has to frustrate both the coach and the GM, because they are ultimately responsible if the team fails to produce on the field.

[mousetrap08]

Of course the Betamax aren't worth much since they took the tvs out.

I had one of those beta machines back when my son was 1 year old and he will be 30 this summer.

[boyst]

 

 

yes x 2

so why isn't the source Marrone?

[Coach Tuesday]

It's very weird that Jim Overdorf and Russ Brandon are the ones talking to and negotiating with agents at the scouting combine when Whaley has the title of GM. Clearly Overdorf has defacto GM powers and it has to frustrate both the coach and the GM, because they are ultimately responsible if the team fails to produce on the field.

 

This, 100%, is the issue. It's right there on display for everyone to see, including us fans, although there are still a dogged few who would prefer to keep their heads in the sand, perhaps because they can't bear the thought that things haven't changed. And the fact that someone voiced his gripes to TG indicates that the free agency season isn't off to a strong start, and folks are already lining up the CYAs... Like I said, it's depressing.

[Beerball]

Question. Simply asked.

 

Is whoever the source is "accountable?"

 

Is there any reason to believe he is on Marrone's inner circle?

I'll answer your questions with another.

 

Who stands to gain the most if there is a shakeup at OBD?

[The Big Cat]

so why isn't the source Marrone?

 

honestly, in my mind, i haven't ruled out that possibility

[BADOLBILZ]

This has to burn Russ like nothing else, no? He is a PR guy by nature.

 

If it doesn't burn him, it scares him. Russ is a notorious liar, it's been illustrated numerous times and that is basically how the organization handles criticism without changing their ways. They create a front. Ralph may be in a fog now for all we know, but he set the course that this franchise is on. If the team is winning big, he will invest in it. If not, he will take from it. The problem is that in that kind of situation.....once you start losing...... you need an extraordinary personnel man as a GM and/or a great coaching staff to defeat the odds that are stacked against them. Polian did it, but times were different then. There were A LOT of organizations that weren't committed to winning back then. There are far less now. Ralphs' way doesn't work. At some point, when you are down you have to go all-in and stay all-in.

[YoloinOhio]

[RealityCheck]

It's quite curious that the bean counters are actively limiting their ability to keep their most expensive and important commodity healthy. They chose to play it cheap and then go really cheap on the "human" maintenance. An NFL team OWES it to their players to give them top-notch trainers and medical staff. Byrd intimated in his interviews upon returning from his hold out that the trainers' advice from the year before lead to the delays in his foot recovery citing "bad advice".

[boyst]

I'll answer your questions with another.

 

Who stands to gain the most if there is a shakeup at OBD?

the most. Martine

The least Russ

 

I just don't think a tree that big can be shook. It either stands or it gets blown down. You can't take an axe to it because you'll never make a dent in jt

Edited February 24, 2014 by jboyst62

[The Big Cat]

If it doesn't burn him, it scares him. Russ is a notorious liar, it's been illustrated numerous times and that is basically how the organization handles criticism without changing their ways. They create a front. Ralph may be in a fog now for all we know, but he set the course that this franchise is on. If the team is winning big, he will invest in it. If not, he will take from it. The problem is that in that kind of situation.....once you start losing...... you need an extraordinary personnel man as a GM and/or a great coaching staff to defeat the odds that are stacked against them. Polian did it, but times were different then. There were A LOT of organizations that weren't committed to winning back then. There are far less now. Ralphs' way doesn't work. At some point, when you are down you have to go all-in and stay all-in.

 

can you please give three examples of Russ's notorious lies?