Pro Football Focus… Bills now have number 4 oline in the league

[clayboy54]

4 hours ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Where the hell is Cleveland? Absurd they're not in the top 10.

Look, I get it but the sack numbers Watson took were unreal. Maybe their run blocking makes the top 10, but not their on-field performance pass blocking this season.

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Cleveland’s 2 starting OTs, 1st rounders and awesome, have been out most of the year. It is absolutely amazing what that coaching staff is doing right now. 

100%! Those guys are amazing. Bill Callahan might be the goat, but I’ve done some clinic work with Scott Peters the assistant OL coach and he is going to climb the coaching ranks. He is the real deal, tremendous knowledge and melded OL technique with MMA principles. He is doing some incredible stuff. 

[Shaw66]

6 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

The Top Ten for the entire season so far is 

1. The Philadelphia Eagles

2. The Detroit Lions

3. Baltimore Ravens 

4. Buffalo Bills

5. Atlanta Falcons

6. Dallas Cowboys

7. Denver Broncos

8. Indianapolis Colts

9. Minnesota Vikings

10. Las Vegas Raiders

 

This the highest the Bills have ever rated out for a season on oline since PFF started their grading system. I’m sure Josh being as elusive helps but an honorable mention and hats off to Aaron Kromer guy can definitely coach an oline. 

1, 3, 4, 6, and 7 all have scrambling QBs.  

 

I don't trust PFF analysis, ever, even when it makes the Bills look good.   

[Ralonzo]

1 hour ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I’m wondering if Bates is in their plans at C next season, in the event they feel they can shave $$ from Morse without losing too much talent. They signed him to a 4 year deal for a reason, and I imagine they always envisioned him potentially playing significant snaps at some point for this team. 

 

I'm ok with Bates for his role as a fill-in with versatility, but I loved Anderson preseason tape. His RAS out of college I recall as being kind of weak strength-wise (15 reps or something), but he has that farmboy core hoss strength coming out of the Calivalley and he was moving and turning 1T's, and then comboing to the next level in preseason. He was very good at G, but definitely limited in T reps. Would like to see him get C reps vs 1's next preseason. Plus personality wise, seems like almost a clone of Spencer Brown.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Ralonzo

[78thealltimegreat]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

1, 3, 4, 6, and 7 all have scrambling QBs.  

 

I don't trust PFF analysis, ever, even when it makes the Bills look good.   

Probably because pocket passers after Brady retired are dinosaurs. Pass rushers are so fast off the ball anymore that if you can’t generate plays with your legs here and there you won’t be in the league too long. The are only a few outliers to this anymore Burrow and Stafford come to mind and it depends on your opinion of Goff. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by 78thealltimegreat

[Punching Bag]

3 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Probably because pocket passers after Brady retired are dinosaurs. Pass rushers are so fast off the ball anymore that if you can’t generate plays with your legs here and there you won’t be in the league too long. The only ones who might be an outliers to this are Burrow and maybe Stafford. 

 

Yes NFL will need to create a rule to slow them down.  Maybe they will need to say "one Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi" before they can cross line of scrimmage.

[wettlaufer]

8 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I’m sure Josh being as elusive helps but an honorable mention and hats off to Aaron Kromer guy can definitely coach an oline. 

Josh holds the ball for a long time (and makes plays doing so). That takes offensive line talent. If Tua gets it out in two seconds and Josh holds it for four seconds, that's twice the work for the line. Which, sure, we all see.

 

But to weaponize that line talent into a multiple attack is what very much sets Brady apart from Dorsey *and* Daboll.

 

The quality of the D-line * the quality of the offensive line will be a decisive element in upcoming games.

 

I am so here for it.

[NoSaint]

8 hours ago, dma0034 said:

Credit Kromer and the the fact they've been healthy all year for this.

 

O'Cyrus Torrence has been great in Year 1

he’s always been a favorite of mine (kromer)

 

his history developing jahri evans, and Carl nicks at guard have me excited about the clay he has with ocyrus… I was admittedly nervous about the fit but it seems the floor is pretty high and ceiling could be rare air

[hondo in seattle]

I've complained about the OL pretty much every year since I was spat out of my mother's womb.  I was tired of seeing other QBs sit back and scan the field for open receivers while our QBs scrambled for their life.  And other RBs run through gaping lanes while our RBs struggled just to get back to the LOS.  

 

I think #4 is a stretch.  But it's been fun to see the progression of the OL this year.  The Dallas game was something special.  

[ShakAttack]

Most position groups are injured by this point in the season. The fact we have had zero injuries on the OL all season is incredible and it’s an automatic bonus when going up DLines every week that are no longer the same group that started the season. 
 

not trying to take anything away here, but if every team in the NFL still had their starters at OL, we probably aren’t 4th best in any OL ranking.  Some teams have been shuffling their OL every week all season it seems. 
 

We probably won’t be this fortunate in the injury department next season (on offense) so I hope we can take advantage!

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

1, 3, 4, 6, and 7 all have scrambling QBs.  

 

I don't trust PFF analysis, ever, even when it makes the Bills look good.   

 

Dak? I mean sure he scrambles now and then. But I wouldn't put him in the Allen, Jackson, Hurts category. They are weapons when they run. Dak isn't a statue. But he is a pocket Quarterback.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

I've complained about the OL pretty much every year since I was spat out of my mother's womb.  I was tired of seeing other QBs sit back and scan the field for open receivers while our QBs scrambled for their life.  And other RBs run through gaping lanes while our RBs struggled just to get back to the LOS.  

 

I think #4 is a stretch.  But it's been fun to see the progression of the OL this year.  The Dallas game was something special.  

 

Yea I'd say #4 is a stretch too. But not a huge one. Somewhere 7-12 feels right. Philly, Detroit, Indy and Atlanta feel hard to argue with. Then I think Dallas, the Rams, Baltimore, Buffalo and the Vikings would be my next group. I think Houston was a top 10 line before the injury bug hit too. They have struggled down the stretch though with guys getting hurt and more backups having to play.

[Utah John]

Got two guards who can play, and a RT who finally figured things out.  Presto!  It only took about 25 years to rebuild the entire line after the great line we had during the SB years.  

 

Cleveland has a great interior G-C-G but didn't make the list I guess because their tackles are pretty bad.

[JerseyBills]

incredible.. 

Because Torrence and this stud

 

Dawkins Morse were always elite. Brown good, still has major upside and potential 

 

 

 

 

[Lost]

9 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Probably because pocket passers after Brady retired are dinosaurs. Pass rushers are so fast off the ball anymore that if you can’t generate plays with your legs here and there you won’t be in the league too long. The are only a few outliers to this anymore Burrow and Stafford come to mind and it depends on your opinion of Goff. 

 

TUA is a pocket passer and arguably injury prone but thankfully McDaniel seems to understand the league today and his players capabilities so has designed his offensive scheme so his QB is getting rid of the ball in under 2.5 seconds.   Tua despite not being very mobile has 3rd fewest sacks among starting QBs this year.   

[NewEra]

16 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Not really. Good rookie year for sure but he's been our weak link IMO.

 

Here are the individual PFF grades for each member of the OL:

 

Dawkins 73.7

McGovern 58.9

Morse 64.5

Torrence 56.6

Brown 69.2

 

Very good on the edges, but slightly below average on the interior.

 

I think two things are helping our ranking here:

1) Continuity. I can't remember the last time the Bills had so many consecutive games with the same starting 5. IIRC McGovern missed the first game, but otherwise the starting 5 has never changed. That is massively important. I doubt more than a couple other teams have this advantage.

2) Relative lack of good OL play across the league. The individual rankings above don't scream "top 5 OL" but most teams have just average OLs right now. I doubt there is a ton of separation between say the 5th best OL and the 20th best OL, at least not enough to make a real difference. There are a couple extremes at both ends and then a lot of average in the middle.

-Ed oliver has a 64 pff rating

-Leonard Floyd has a 57 pff rating

-Bernard is 65…..

-while Dodson is the 2nd best LB in the game at 89+, but he’s not the 2nd best LB in the league

 

mcgovern and Torrance have been better than their off rating suggests.  

 

pff can be a decent gauge.  It can also provide false narratives if that’s how you were to grade a player

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I'd say #4 is a stretch too. But not a huge one. Somewhere 7-12 feels right. Philly, Detroit, Indy and Atlanta feel hard to argue with. Then I think Dallas, the Rams, Baltimore, Buffalo and the Vikings would be my next group. I think Houston was a top 10 line before the injury bug hit too. They have struggled down the stretch though with guys getting hurt and more backups having to play.

 

What sort of schemes or concepts is the OL leaning on, now that Brady is in charge? 

[Mr. WEO]

17 hours ago, SWATeam said:

He also holds the ball longer than anyone.

 

this is wrong as well. 13 QBs hold it longer.

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw

14 hours ago, BearNorth said:

Bills have given up 20 sacks on the season which is best in the league.  They have recorded 50 sacks, which is 3rd in the league. 

 

Top five teams in net sacks are: Bills, +30; Dolphins,+25;Chiefs, +23; Ravens, +18; 49ers, +15 - these are all top teams.

 

 

This is mainly because Josh leaves the pocket quickly, not necessarily because he has a lot of time in the pocket.  Similar for Mahomes and obviously Jackson.

[SWATeam]

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

this is wrong as well. 13 QBs hold it longer.

 

LOL, and those 13 include Deshaun Watson, Tommy DeVito, Josh Dobbs, Jimmy Garoppolo and Zach Wilson...

 

Josh is actually quicker to throw this year than in the past.  But as much as he helps out the line with his mobility, he also forces the line to sustain blocks longer than most which can be challenging. 

[Mr. WEO]

38 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

LOL, and those 13 include Deshaun Watson, Tommy DeVito, Josh Dobbs, Jimmy Garoppolo and Zach Wilson...

 

Josh is actually quicker to throw this year than in the past.  But as much as he helps out the line with his mobility, he also forces the line to sustain blocks longer than most which can be challenging. 

 

 

mentioning that certainly doesn't change the fact that your comment was incorrect.  re: holding the ball longer than anyone else--he's not even close.

 

There's no question he makes this O-line look better.  

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

-Ed oliver has a 64 pff rating

-Leonard Floyd has a 57 pff rating

-Bernard is 65…..

-while Dodson is the 2nd best LB in the game at 89+, but he’s not the 2nd best LB in the league

 

mcgovern and Torrance have been better than their off rating suggests.  

 

pff can be a decent gauge.  It can also provide false narratives if that’s how you were to grade a player

 

 

I don't blindly trust PFF grades, that is fair. I'm just saying even by their own grading system calling us the 4th ranked OL is somewhat of a mirage. The 4th ranked DL would be elite. The 4th ranked group of pass catchers would be elite. Because OL talent across the league is so bad this year, unless you have a top 2 OL it's not really making a difference in the game. I don't think our OL has been a true advantage this year. But it has been good enough which is all you can ask for in the modern NFL.

 

On Torrence, I think a narrative has formed that he has performed better than he really has, likely because fans are comparing it to the truly awful play that we got last year. He has had major issues getting beaten inside for most of the season. He's pretty consistently been the weak link. But similar to what I said above, most OLs have a weak link or two so relative to the rest of the league it's not a huge deal. Hiding a guard is easy anyways, as long as they aren't so awful they wreck game plans like Saffold did.

 

I'm not saying Torrence was a bad pick by the way. You have to be patient with rookie o-linemen these days and he's certainly shown a strong foundation for development. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a top 10 guard by his 3rd season.

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, SWATeam said:

LOL, and those 13 include Deshaun Watson, Tommy DeVito, Josh Dobbs, Jimmy Garoppolo and Zach Wilson...

 

Why did you happen to select that group of QBs? Also below Josh are Jackson, Mahomes, and Hurts. I assume you can see the pattern here?

 

Here's the top 10 in that stat:

 

Tua

Mac Jones

Siemian

Lawrence

Burrow

Zappe

Ridder

Carr

Browning

Mayfield

 

My takeaway is that it's a totally meaningless stat that tells you nothing about the quality of the QB or of the OL.

[SWATeam]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Why did you happen to select that group of QBs? Also below Josh are Jackson, Mahomes, and Hurts. I assume you can see the pattern here?

 

Here's the top 10 in that stat:

 

Tua

Mac Jones

Siemian

Lawrence

Burrow

Zappe

Ridder

Carr

Browning

Mayfield

 

My takeaway is that it's a totally meaningless stat that tells you nothing about the quality of the QB or of the OL.

I was identifying guys included in that number that have not really played a ton this year.  When you say "13 guys below him" you would think that would be starting QB's, not just anyone that has played QB this year.

 

Agree on the stat not meaning much regarding the quality of the QB.  A lot of the current best QB's hold it.  My only point is that style puts additional pressure on the OL for having to sustain blocks.  While Josh does make the line better by getting out of trouble with his mobility, he also makes it tough on them at times by being among the league leaders for holding the ball.  That's it.

[Big Blitz]

Yep. 
 

 

[SoonerBillsFan]

I believe it.  By this time next year OT better be the RG all pro choice.

[somnus00]

They've certainly improved. But so has Josh's pocket awareness. There have been games where he is running for his life and avoids the sacks.

 

I believe, last I saw, the Bills were like 11th in pressures allowed, but 1st in sacks allowed.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't blindly trust PFF grades, that is fair. I'm just saying even by their own grading system calling us the 4th ranked OL is somewhat of a mirage. The 4th ranked DL would be elite. The 4th ranked group of pass catchers would be elite. Because OL talent across the league is so bad this year, unless you have a top 2 OL it's not really making a difference in the game. I don't think our OL has been a true advantage this year. But it has been good enough which is all you can ask for in the modern NFL.

 

On Torrence, I think a narrative has formed that he has performed better than he really has, likely because fans are comparing it to the truly awful play that we got last year. He has had major issues getting beaten inside for most of the season. He's pretty consistently been the weak link. But similar to what I said above, most OLs have a weak link or two so relative to the rest of the league it's not a huge deal. Hiding a guard is easy anyways, as long as they aren't so awful they wreck game plans like Saffold did.

 

I'm not saying Torrence was a bad pick by the way. You have to be patient with rookie o-linemen these days and he's certainly shown a strong foundation for development. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a top 10 guard by his 3rd season.

 

So on Torrence it is in part because he was really good the first 5 or 6 weeks. Teams were putting their best defensive tackles on him and he was winning. Consistently. And the narrative built. What happened is teams watched film and they started using hybrid types or out and out edge players inside to speed rush the inside shoulder. Torrence does have a weakness there. And I think to an extent he always will because his foot speed is sub-optimal (which was the fit point some of us worried about when he was coming out). I expect the Bills staff to really work hard on technique in trying to mitigate that in the offseason and they can probably do so to an extent. But it will always be there. That said, his anchor continues to be really impressive and if he gets the first punch in on a defender it is rep over and he is a run game mauler (and has played a big part in turning us around in that regard).

[Capco]

3 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

Yep. 
 

 

Interesting use of the word "battery".  Does he basically mean "connection"?

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't blindly trust PFF grades, that is fair. I'm just saying even by their own grading system calling us the 4th ranked OL is somewhat of a mirage. The 4th ranked DL would be elite. The 4th ranked group of pass catchers would be elite. Because OL talent across the league is so bad this year, unless you have a top 2 OL it's not really making a difference in the game. I don't think our OL has been a true advantage this year. But it has been good enough which is all you can ask for in the modern NFL.

 

On Torrence, I think a narrative has formed that he has performed better than he really has, likely because fans are comparing it to the truly awful play that we got last year. He has had major issues getting beaten inside for most of the season. He's pretty consistently been the weak link. But similar to what I said above, most OLs have a weak link or two so relative to the rest of the league it's not a huge deal. Hiding a guard is easy anyways, as long as they aren't so awful they wreck game plans like Saffold did.

 

I'm not saying Torrence was a bad pick by the way. You have to be patient with rookie o-linemen these days and he's certainly shown a strong foundation for development. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a top 10 guard by his 3rd season.

I hear ya.  
 

I think our OL might be a top 4-5- hard to say.  I don’t watch enough in depth OL play from the other teams.  When watching non Bills games, I feel that the most offensive lines are below average and that the level of OL play is lesser now than ever.  It seems that most fans think their OLs are bad. 

[Billy Claude]

22 minutes ago, Capco said:

Interesting use of the word "battery".  Does he basically mean "connection"?

 

I think Gruden is using it in the way the pitcher and catcher is called the battery in baseball, so yes "connection".

[Capco]

Just now, Billy Claude said:

 

I think Gruden is using it in the way the pitcher and catcher is called the battery in baseball, so yes "connection".

Ahh I wasn't aware of the baseball reference.  That makes sense.  Thanks!

[Big Blitz]

6 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

I believe it.  By this time next year OT better be the RG all pro choice.

You mean we aren’t going to be discussing that Spencer Brown contract all summer?

 

I’d get ahead of it - we know we have a quality starter.  He may take it to free agency or maybe we lock him up to a 4 year 30 million dollar deal or something like that.  
 

Puts him right in the middle here:

 

https://overthecap.com/position/right-tackle

 

One less hole to fill - we’re going to have enough on the D line.  

[GunnerBill]

16 hours ago, SWATeam said:

I was identifying guys included in that number that have not really played a ton this year.  When you say "13 guys below him" you would think that would be starting QB's, not just anyone that has played QB this year.

 

Agree on the stat not meaning much regarding the quality of the QB.  A lot of the current best QB's hold it.  My only point is that style puts additional pressure on the OL for having to sustain blocks.  While Josh does make the line better by getting out of trouble with his mobility, he also makes it tough on them at times by being among the league leaders for holding the ball.  That's it.

 

Yea. Time to throw is a mismash of so many things. Your OL. Your QB's speed in his progressions. Your offensive design. It can show you things. And generally when Josh is at his best his time to throw is down slightly and that is because it generally means he is in command, confident and reading things decisively so gets the ball out. But the way he extends plays he is never going to be a Joe Burrow in that stat. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I always knew Spencer Brown would turn into a good OT. 🤥

[bmur66]

Shhhhhh. Don’t talk about it.

[Bermuda Triangle]

Looking stellar so far today.

[Julio Hopkins]

Are they graded on passing blocking or do they ignore that part of the game?