The Bills biggest problem on offense remains unchanged

[Alphadawg7]

You cant fix everything in one offseason...the OL is playing much better overall, Bills are even 5th in rushing yards in the NFL without Allen running a whole lot this year.  

 

Every team has an area or player that needs a certain upgrade.  Bills are doing what is necessary to help make this work right now, and I am supremely confident that  if Brown doesn't put it together this season then one of our first 2 draft picks next year will include a RT (if they don't bring one in via trade or free agency first).  

 

 

[NewEra]

No cap. 
 

If he continues this level of play all season, this should look to trade him.

[The Jokeman]

Take a look at other starting right OTs in the league, Spencer's penalties and sack against are better/comparable than those of the Chiefs, 49ers, Dolphins just to name teams in the discussion as leagues best.

[Chaos]

3 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Take a look at other starting right OTs in the league, Spencer's penalties and sack against are better/comparable than those of the Chiefs, 49ers, Dolphins just to name teams in the discussion as leagues best.

[Coldfronts]

You bring up a good point.  It's undeniable that the tight ends are handing off defensive ends to Brown. This is a question that should be asked of the coaches. I wish the media would ask it

[The Jokeman]

@Chaosthank you.

[NewEra]

30 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Actually, I don't think the adjustments have been a problem.  We have faced two of the best defensive lines in the league and their damage has been limited.  Against lesser competition the plan could differ significantly.

 

And my opinion of a different biggest problem on offense was deemed off-topic?

The jets DL wrecked us and was one of the reasons we lost.  Josh didn’t trust them and made bad decisions because of it. 
 

The raiders DL is awful minus one player….which is easy to avoid and chip.  

 

The pass protection vs Washington was very good, but we also had to keep our weapons in to help a good amount because the coaching staff knows they can’t trust Brown.  The Washington DL is great but the rest of the D sucked, so we were able to get away with it.  
 

I hope we continue to give brown help in pass pro all season…..because he needs it more than most starting OTs….. but it’s terrible that we have to go to such measures as much as we do.  I don’t think any team does it as much as us, but I could be wrong. 

[Brand J]

Brown has the temperament, athleticism, and long arms to be a very good RT, but he’s just so tall and angular that I’d like to see him put on 20 pounds of functional weight/strength. Since his center of gravity is so high, DEs have the option of bull rushing or going right around him. If he was stronger and heavier I feel like he’d have more of a chance to hold off his defender once he got his hands on him. Right now he’s not strong enough so the height works against him. 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Nope.  It’s picking out a punching bag.  Happens every year.  

It’s because of consistent weakness that one becomes a punching bag

[SoMAn]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Just don't agree with the OP. Brown has been good enough against good competition.  He's been better than Dawkins. 

The problems on offense is the inability to execute a screen play, the inability to get more downfield throws to Knox and Kincaid, and the failure of the two new WRs to make any impact. 

Why this team can't execute a screen is beyond me. 

Not getting Kincaid and Knox deep down the seams is on Dorsey.

The true slot WR spot should go to Shakir. No he isn't a gadget guy but he is a solid WR that finds ways to get open. He is a slightly less quick Beasley 2.0.

My hope is that some of the missing elements in the offense you’ve cited are due to not needing them, at least in the last 2 lopsided wins.  
Could be they’re reserving some of their playbook for bigger threats like the one coming up next weekend. Maybe we’ll see a few wrinkles that haven’t yet made their was to the field. 

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Simon said:

 

The suggestion that he's shown improvement is not in any way a "fact".

Yea Simon I don’t agree with that

 

Has he even given up a sacked this year?

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

No cap. 
 

If he continues this level of play all season, this should look to trade him.

I never understood this line of thinking if the player improves and they’re young why would you trade away something that you actually need for your team yourself?

 

I mean, it’s not like any of this is going to happen the bills obviously love Spencer Brown they stuck with him through his injury and his poor play

[Airseven]

They don’t love Spencer Brown. They’re simply committed to (stuck with) him, in part because of cap issues, and trying to make the best of it.

[Mr. WEO]

It seems like only yesterday the board was fawning over young Spencer Brown....

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Oh, true,  There are the pass plays which get blown up, or where Josh evades, or where he gets hit.

 

I didn't say almost every play - I said almost every pass play.  I give Spencer Brown his propers - he's a mauler in run blocking.

You do understand when Brown rides a guy past Allen and Allen steps up in the pocket that is good pass blocking.  I don't think you understand oline blocking nor the level of competition he has been facing.

I don’t recall a single play where Brown was "blown up" in the last two weeks

 First week yes there were several. If you can point them out happy to look.

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Why do so many fans feel the need to assign a player as the designated punching bag?  This year it’s Brown.  Last few year Edmunds with a sprinkling of Oliver and Saffold.  Brown has done OK so far.

 

 

Why would anyone consider naming a weak link on a team akin to making him "a punching bag"?  I never understood this.

 

For example, Saffold was a disaster.  Does saying so make him "a punching bag"?  

[oldmanfan]

52 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Why would anyone consider naming a weak link on a team akin to making him "a punching bag"?  I never understood this.

 

For example, Saffold was a disaster.  Does saying so make him "a punching bag"?  

I get the point several have made.  My point is there seems to be an effort to single guys out even before the season starts.  Brown is this year.  He’s not an All Pro but if you watched the game Sunday he did pretty good.  

[4BillsintheBurgh]

5 hours ago, Simon said:

It continues to be the same problem that has been plaguing them for three years, and that problem is Spencer Brown.

I give them credit for the solid job they have done hiding him so far, but the fact that they continue to have to go out of their way to protect him every week is absolutely handicapping what should be a much more efficient offense. When you have to commit skill players to blocking roles that often, it's like they're playing 10 on 11 out there.

If you wonder why Kincaid and Knox aren't having big impacts check and see how long it takes them to actually get into their routes when they have to spend extra time protecting Spencer Brown before they can leave the LOS.

If you wonder where Damien Harris and Latavius Murray are, look how often they are being asked to cover Spencer Brown. Hell, the Bills are actually using Murray on the LOS just to engage DE's while Brown is still getting set up in pass pro.

 

I really like Spencer Brown and am glad he is on the roster. You tell him to bury the guy in front of him on a 34 dive, and that's what he'll usually do. But he simply does not have the feet to be a complete OT in the modern NFL and is never going to. The necessity for the Bills to take skill players and put them on their heels to protect Brown instead of using them to attack defenses is making it impossible for them to maximize their offensive talent. And as long as they insist on putting a Tackle out there who can't play Tackle in this league, it's going to continue to be a problem all year.

I'm not a GM and have no idea what the in-season solution could be, or if there is even one available. The time to address the issue was the offseason and they didn't do enough solve the problem. I'm not saying it is going to sink their season down the road, but it is certainly going to make things much harder then they needed to be on offense for the rest of this year.

I think they did the right thing by bringing in Shell this off-season, I'd be interested to sit down with him to understand if he retired because of a coaching decision. It's too bad they haven't found someone else to try and compete a little, but it would be difficult at this point.

One option on the roster if it gets really bad would be to move Dawkins over there and send in Van Demark. You'd like to swap Van Demark and Brown, but Van Demark hasn't looked good on the right side. I don't see that swap happening unless there is an injury, might be tough on Dawkins too.

I've gotta think that will be the biggest issue on offense in the offseason, it will be interesting to see what resources are thrown at RT or OT in general. At this point I'm thinking another vet and a 1st or 2nd round draft pick and let them sort it out.

[harryS]

7 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The Bills just destroyed the Commanders in a game in which we had something like NINE sacks while our starting RB nearly broke 100 yards and we choose now to complain about the offensive line? Okie Dokie? 

 

The goal isn't to beat Washington.

 

Plus, criticism is sometimes best received after victory.  A win doesn't mean you're perfect.

[NewEra]

5 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Yea Simon I don’t agree with that

 

Has he even given up a sacked this year?

I never understood this line of thinking if the player improves and they’re young why would you trade away something that you actually need for your team yourself?

 

I mean, it’s not like any of this is going to happen the bills obviously love Spencer Brown they stuck with him through his injury and his poor play

I said “if he continues this level of play (which is poor imo) we should trade him”.  I don’t think he’s that much improved in pass pro.  We’re just giving him a lot more help, making him look much improved.  
 

so, you don’t understand why I’d want to trade a player that isn’t good?  🤷🏻‍♂️

[John from Riverside]

4 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I said “if he continues this level of play (which is poor imo) we should trade him”.  I don’t think he’s that much improved in pass pro.  We’re just giving him a lot more help, making him look much improved.  
 

so, you don’t understand why I’d want to trade a player that isn’t good?  🤷🏻‍♂️

I disagree that he isn’t playing well there are a lot of right tackles in the league they get that same kind of help
 

And he isn’t getting help on every play

[Matt_In_NH]

Dude he wasn’t even the starter theee years ago to start the season.  He has had struggles but if that is the biggest problem it shows how good this roster is.  Show me a team without a hole.  
 

spencer has exceptional athletic ability and I think he has improved some but his torso is so long he gets off his center easily.  Maybe he is not the long term answer but the RT being an issue  is something that can be worked around.  You can’t have all pros everywhere and you have to rely on your ability to develop talent.  I will also point out josh holds the ball longer than most qbs and moves around a lot even when he does not need to.   He is difficult to block for

[Since1981]

9 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

 

I'd still like to see them acquire a "real" deep threat with reliable hands. 

 

Agreed. There is more than one way to improve. I’ll reiterate again.
 

 bills have 1 thing that sets them apart from 31 teams. Josh. His super power is a huge body and strongest arm in NFL.

 

A fast receiver accentuates this team super power. I don’t understand why this is so hard for mgt to grasp. Don’t need more D, don’t need FB….no punt gods. 

receiver = leverage team super power  

[Pete]

9 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

All last season he was our worst  OLineman after Saffold. Now for 3 straight weeks he's still our lowest rated lineman. 

this doesn't make sense. 

 

Brown was second worst OL last year and still the worst

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Just don't agree with the OP. Brown has been good enough against good competition.  He's been better than Dawkins. 

 

 

That is simply not true. Dion got beat on a 3rd down on Sunday (I think by Chase Young) but it is like his only major lost rep in 3 games. He has been very good to start this season. Especially in pass protection.

[NewEra]

45 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I disagree that he isn’t playing well there are a lot of right tackles in the league they get that same kind of help
 

And he isn’t getting help on every play

I disagree, he isn’t “playing well”

 

better than a dumpster fire, sure.  

[Blackbeard]

I’m sure Brown being a weak link was a factor in bringing in Murray and Kincaid. 
 

It’s a tough position to find good personnel for.  

[John from Riverside]

46 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I disagree, he isn’t “playing well”

 

better than a dumpster fire, sure.  

But weren’t we expecting him to be a dumpster fire?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Uh oh, someone's been putting stock in pff grades again 

[Chaos]

43 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Uh oh, someone's been putting stock in pff grades again 

All 32 teams use PFF Team Services.  So do many NCAA programs.  You may want to consider marketing your "Pine Barrens Mafia Eye Test" as a replacement. You could save the NFL a lot of money that way. 

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I get the point several have made.  My point is there seems to be an effort to single guys out even before the season starts.  Brown is this year.  He’s not an All Pro but if you watched the game Sunday he did pretty good.  

 

before the season started, he was singled out because of his performance last year.

 

these aren't random comments people are making.

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I disagree that he isn’t playing well there are a lot of right tackles in the league they get that same kind of help
 

And he isn’t getting help on every play

John, he is this year's target.  Not much you can say to remove the target from his back.  He is not the best RT in the league, but not the worst either.  Good run blocker but given his size can be susceptible to getting off balance at times in pass protection.  Horrors.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

John, he is this year's target.  Not much you can say to remove the target from his back.  He is not the best RT in the league, but not the worst either.  Good run blocker but given his size can be susceptible to getting off balance at times in pass protection.  Horrors.

I mean it’s not the hill I’m gonna die on. I would also like to have an all pro it right tackle. Can someone please run down and get one of those from the Walmart for me please

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

before the season started, he was singled out because of his performance last year.

 

these aren't random comments people are making.

But if one actually watches the games thus far and focus in on him he is doing OK.  Like any guy in the league he got beat a couple times.  

 

You tell me, what should we be looking for in terms of performance?  No pressures or sacks given up?  There's a name for tackles like that:  HOFers.

[John from Riverside]

31 minutes ago, Chaos said:

All 32 teams use PFF Team Services.  So do many NCAA programs.  You may want to consider marketing your "Pine Barrens Mafia Eye Test" as a replacement. You could save the NFL a lot of money that way. 

PFF is sometimes full of ***** there. I said it.

[oldmanfan]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

I mean it’s not the hill I’m gonna die on. I would also like to have an all pro it right tackle. Can someone please run down and get one of those from the Walmart for me please

I think for RT's it's Target you go to, but I'd have to double check.

[Chaos]

There are three separate complaints in the original post 

1. Brown's play 
2. Beane's "failure to do anything about it".  
3. Dorsey's scheme to deal with the problem 

 

1. Brown's play -  Objectively his play is mediocre compared to NFL peers, not awful. 
2. Beane's failure to do anything about it.   I think this is not a reasonable complaint. There are only so many options.  And all options require speculation. For example, I was very high on Broderick Jones in the draft. He went 15th overall to the Steelers.  So far he has played four snaps this season.  Beane chose to improve the line in general, to alleviate some pressure on the Browns spot.  The McGovern and Torrence picks did this. He brought in veteran RBs skilled at blocking. 
3. Dorsey's scheme to deal with the weakness at right tackle.  - I am not sure what the alternative's are to the current scheme of using Kincaid, Knox, Murray and Harris to help.  Almost every NFL team has weaknesses on the offensive line.  What other schemes do teams use that are better than what Dorsey is doing? 

5 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

PFF is sometimes full of ***** there. I said it.

No statistical analysis is perfect.  Those that understand how to use and interpret the statistics understand that basic point. It does not mean the statistics are not useful.  But they are only useful to people that understand them. 

What problems do you see in the PFF analysis of the top four AFCs tackles I posted in the thread? That would be the main relevent point here. 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Chaos said:

There are three separate complaints in the original post 

1. Brown's play 
2. Beane's "failure to do anything about it".  
3. Dorsey's scheme to deal with the problem 

 

1. Brown's play -  Objectively his play is mediocre compared to NFL peers, not awful. 
2. Beane's failure to do anything about it.   I think this is not a reasonable complaint. There are only so many options.  And all options require speculation. For example, I was very high on Broderick Jones in the draft. He went 15th overall to the Steelers.  So far he has played four snaps this season.  Beane chose to improve the line in general, to alleviate some pressure on the Browns spot.  The McGovern and Torrence picks did this. He brought in veteran RBs skilled at blocking. 
3. Dorsey's scheme to deal with the weakness at right tackle.  - I am not sure what the alternative's are to the current scheme of using Kincaid, Knox, Murray and Harris to help.  Almost every NFL team has weaknesses on the offensive line.  What other schemes do teams use that are better than what Dorsey is doing? 

To address each of your points:

 

1.  Spot on.  He is good in run blocking, must continue to improve on pas protection.  

2.  Beane bought in Shell but he retired.  He then brought in Ifedi.  That's called addressing the position.  And if we had drafted a RT and then stayed with drafting Torrence in round 2 the complaints would be that nothing was done to give Allen more weapons.  

3.  None

[SoCal Deek]

4 hours ago, harryS said:

 

The goal isn't to beat Washington.

 

Plus, criticism is sometimes best received after victory.  A win doesn't mean you're perfect.

I get all of that. It’s the timing of the thread that had me a little perplexed. We just throttled two NFL opponents in consecutive weeks in what could only be described as cakewalks by league standards…something we’re told is almost impossible to do because of the elite level of talent across the NFL. In neither of the last two games, even with the Bills facing REALLY good defensive lines on both the Raiders and WTFs, did the offensive line, including Brown, get repeatedly embarrassed. So once again, while we as fans can always find something to complain about, this seems like a really odd time to bring up what we all already know:

 

Yes, Spencer Brown is the weakest link on the Bills offensive line. 

[quinnearlysghost88]

12 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

0 sacks.

 

He’s had help, but he’s been ok. The fact he’s shown improvement thus far says let’s see how much improvement he continues to make over the season. 

The 0 sacks is because of the help. Again we’re pinning our TEs to the line instead of going out for passes to help. It’s handicapping us. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

The 0 sacks is because of the help. Again we’re pinning our TEs to the line instead of going out for passes to help. It’s handicapping us. 

It’s only a small sample size so far. The Bills have PURPOSELY game played to go up against some top level D Line teams in the Jets, Raiders and Commanders. Anyone know how the Dolphins D Line has been playing? (We’ve obviously all heard about their offense.)