Training Camp - 8/3 - 9:45am

[wppete]

15 minutes ago, NickelCity said:

Waiting til 4 is a real pain in the ass for us junkies. 

Where can we watch? 

[Warcodered]

 

[SCBills]

10 minutes ago, balln said:

I’ll help. The chiefs drafted Chris jones in the 2nd. The chiefs drafted Travis kelce in the 3rd. Need to get more IMPACT freaking players / hit on some

picks BEANE! 
 

I think Kincaid will be beanes first outside of Josh Allen. I simply thinks all his other draft picks are JAgS w a few good starters (taron , Milano) 

 

also just think. He’s drafted with a 2 and 2 3s - DS, moss and cook. RBs that haven’t moved the needle or made big impact in a big game (still too early on cook tho) 

Milano is more than a “good starter”, however… he’s an elite LB in a world where you have to hit on QB to be relevant, and then OL, DL & WR to be a contender. 
 

Beane’s biggest issue was the back to back RD2 picks of AJE & Basham, followed by back to back RD3 picks of Bernard & Williams.  
 

If you’re going to do that on consecutive Day 2’s, one of them needs to hit.  
 

He still has time for one of Bernard or Williams, but is running out of it with AJE and Basham - as we’re essentially at a place with AJE where he’s finally a legitimate rotational pass rusher and we get one year of that production from him before we either lose him, or have to allocate cap space to him. 
 

In fairness.. I think Elam, Cook, Kincaid and Torrence may be the guys that swing the pendulum back to Beane’s side. 

[balln]

Just now, SCBills said:

Milano is more than a “good starter”, however… he’s an elite LB in a world where you have to hit on QB to be relevant, and then OL, DL & WR to be a contender. 
 

Beane’s biggest issue was the back to back RD2 picks of AJE & Basham, followed by back to back RD3 picks of Bernard & Williams.  
 

If you’re going to do that on consecutive Day 2’s, one of them needs to hit.  
 

He still has time for one of Bernard or Williams, but is running out of it with AJE and Basham - as we’re essentially at a place with AJE where he’s finally a legitimate rotational pass rusher and we get one year of that production from him before we either lose him, or have to allocate cap space to him. 
 

In fairness.. I think Elam, Cook, Kincaid and Torrence may be the guys that swing the pendulum back to Beane’s side. 

How about back to back 3rd rd really poor RAS RBs but good “character”?

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, balln said:

How about back to back 3rd rd really poor RAS RBs but good “character”?

Agreed.  I think we learned a lesson with those picks.  
 

Our backfield now consists of 3 guys who have distinct high level skills with a weakness.  
 

Cook - elite game speed & pass catching but needs to get better in pass pro. 
 

Harris - Power back with some speed, but is meh at receiving 

 

Murray - Power back, good pass pro, but up there in age 

 

Never again do I want to see us draft 3 down backs who have no high level skills, while doing everything “average to good”.   Which is Singletary in a nutshell. 
 

Moss I had higher hopes for .. he just didn’t work out. 
 

Edited August 4, 2023 by SCBills

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

He’s a good dude.

 

Hopefully he won’t be featured on this again.

 

💤 

 

the only part I enjoyed was Diggs. Why doesn’t Diggs get mic’d up? Think he says no?

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, balln said:

How about back to back 3rd rd really poor RAS RBs but good “character”?

 

Singletary had 3000+ yards and averaged 4.7 YPC over the last 4 years.  He's certainly not all-pro, but he's not far off Miles Sanders and David Montgomery statistically at all.  You can do a lot worse. 

 

Moss on the other hand was injured at times, and wholly ineffective at others.  There were numbers from college that seemed to indicate he was going to be a player outside of his RAS.

 

Also RAS doesn't mean everything - you do want players who are good at football, not working out. 

[GoBills808]

46 minutes ago, balln said:

I’ll help. The chiefs drafted Chris jones in the 2nd. The chiefs drafted Travis kelce in the 3rd. Need to get more IMPACT freaking players / hit on some

picks BEANE! 
 

I think Kincaid will be beanes first outside of Josh Allen. I simply thinks all his other draft picks are JAgS w a few good starters (taron , Milano) 

 

also just think. He’s drafted with a 2 and 2 3s - DS, moss and cook. RBs that haven’t moved the needle or made big impact in a big game (still too early on cook tho) 

Chiefs recent drafts in those mid rounds have been average as well 

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

Yes, I think he drafted poorly in rd 2-3 in the last few years and it may have cost us a a championship.  
 

Brief summary on each pick within your quotation is enough to show how it may have cost us a championship.  
 

I don’t care to get into the %’s of 2nd and 3rd rd picks that succeed.  I didn’t like several of the picks at the time and those picks have done next to nothing to help our team.  In most cases they hurt our team.  Considering that we were a second away from possibly winning a SB 2 seasons ago, I can say that drafting other players instead of the busts COULD have cost us a championship.  Or more.

 

Actually,  no, it's not.  We bring 90 players into camp each season.  Every team drafts players who don't succeed. 

 

So you kind of need to explain a bit more to defend that as a realistic theory as responsible for "no championship".

 

Or not - you can believe it, and I can chalk it up as "not defended, not proven" and it looks like it's spurred some interesting discussion.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Beck Water

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

I mean, if you say so

 

You aren't really contending that Gabe Davis is as good as Jaylen Waddle, are you?

 

The Jaylen Waddle who has 179 catches for 2300 yards in two seasons compared to Gabe's 118 for 1900 in three?

 

The Jaylen Waddle who, as a deep threat, still boasts a almost 70% catch percentage compared to Gabe's 54%? 

 

The Jaylen Waddle who has had Tua, Jacoby Brissett, Teddy Bridgewater and Skylar Thompson throwing to him, not one of the best QB's in football?

 

Man.

Edited August 4, 2023 by FireChans

[NewEra]

Just now, Beck Water said:

 

Actually,  no, it's not.  We bring 90 players into camp each season.  Every team has players who don't succeed. 

 

So you kind of need to explain a bit more to defend that as a theory for "no championship".

No, I don’t have to explain anything anymore than I already have.  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together here. 

If we would’ve drafted some impact players in rd 2 and 3 as opposed to some of the busts that we drafted we may have beaten KC in jan 2022.  Maybe even KC in 21 and cinci in 23.   
 

no, I can’t scientifically prove that we could have won.  I just know that good players help win titles.  Bums don’t.  There were some very good players available when we selected bums.  Different selections MAY HAVE led to different fates the last few years

 

[BillsShredder83]

38 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You aren't really contending that Gabe Davis is as good as Jaylen Waddle, are you?

 

The Jaylen Waddle who has 179 catches for 2300 yards in two seasons compared to Gabe's 118 for 1900 in three?

 

The Jaylen Waddle who, as a deep threat, still boasts a almost 70% catch percentage compared to Gabe's 54%? 

 

The Jaylen Waddle who has had Tua, Jacoby Brissett, Teddy Bridgewater and Skylar Thompson throwing to him, not one of the best QB's in football?

 

Man.

Or "that guy in Cinci"....... like he said, i "must not watch other teams".....

hes the same guy that will say "yards are yards" and be completely oblivious to the fact that Tee having an extra 25 catches, despite "similar" yardage means, helping keep his QB off his back, helping his #1 avoid bracketing, opening things up for your slot, a chit ton of 1st downs that keep drives alive (our biggest offensive struggle last year

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by BillsShredder83

[FireChans]

29 minutes ago, NewEra said:

No, I don’t have to explain anything anymore than I already have.  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together here. 

If we would’ve drafted some impact players in rd 2 and 3 as opposed to some of the busts that we drafted we may have beaten KC in jan 2022.  Maybe even KC in 21 and cinci in 23.   
 

no, I can’t scientifically prove that we could have won.  I just know that good players help win titles.  Bums don’t.  There were some very good players available when we selected bums.  Different selections MAY HAVE led to different fates the last few years

 

This teams doesn't have a lot of "needs," from a week to week standpoint.  But from a Superbowl winning standpoint, we absolutely needed 1-2 more guys who earned second contracts or at least produced during their rookie deals to win one over the last couple years.

 

If Cody Ford worked out, or if we kept Teller, or if Spencer Brown took the starting RT job and never looked back, or AJE became an 8 sack guy and consistent edge setter, or Ed played like one of the best DT's in football, or Edmunds played like an All-Pro for multiple seasons etc. etc. etc.

 

We have a lot of solid guys. Beane is good at finding solid guys.  We needed, and still need, stars. You are 100% correct, IMO.

6 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Or "that guy in Cinci"....... like he said, i "must not watch other teams".....

hes the same guy that will say "yards are yards" and be completely oblivious to the fact that Tee having an extra 25 catches, despite "similar" yardage means, helping keep his QB off his back, helping his #1 avoid bracketing, opening things up for your slot, a chit ton of 1st downs that keep drives alive (our biggest offensive struggle last year

 

Tee also has 1000 more yards....in less games.

Edited August 4, 2023 by FireChans

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

This teams doesn't have a lot of "needs," from a week to week standpoint.  But from a Superbowl winning standpoint, we absolutely needed 1-2 more guys who earned second contracts or at least produced during their rookie deals to win one over the last couple years.

 

If Cody Ford worked out, or if we kept Teller, or if Spencer Brown took the starting RT job and never looked back, or AJE became an 8 sack guy and consistent edge setter, or Ed played like one of the best DT's in football, or Edmunds played like an All-Pro for multiple seasons etc. etc. etc.

 

We have a lot of solid guys. Beane is good at finding solid guys.  We needed, and still need, stars. You are 100% correct, IMO.

Yes it's overall correct but it's not the whole picture

 

The context is the margins are thin esp when youre drafting where we do (and Chiefs as well)...and they're not exactly smashing those midround picks either

 

difference between Bills' and Chiefs' success can't be explained simply by the disparity in value of 2nd/3rd round draft picks imo

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes it's overall correct but it's not the whole picture

 

The context is the margins are thin esp when youre drafting where we do (and Chiefs as well)...and they're not exactly smashing those midround picks either

 

difference between Bills' and Chiefs' success can't be explained simply by the disparity in value of 2nd/3rd round draft picks imo

I agree.  In that context, I would argue the disparity between us and the Chiefs is simply them hitting on OL talent. Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith would both likely start on this team, (you could argue Morse I suppose, but with his age and concussion history he's a timebomb imo)

 

There has never been a year where our OL has been better than their OL, on the whole. And some folks would say, "we don't emphasize it enough" but the proof is in the pudding. We drafted guys like Ford and Brown.  We signed the Spains and Saffolds of the world. We traded away the one guy who would've been a slam dunk for our roster. They drafted good OL players and kept them.

 

It's no surprise the best Bills' season (AFCCG in 2020) was when we had our best OL and our best WR group of this regime.

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by FireChans

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I agree.  In that context, I would argue the disparity between us and the Chiefs is simply them hitting on OL talent. Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith would both likely start on this team, (you could argue Morse I suppose, but with his age and concussion history he's a timebomb imo)

 

There has never been a year where our OL has been better than their OL, on the whole. And some folks would say, "we don't emphasize it enough" but the proof is in the pudding. We drafted guys like Ford and Brown.  We signed the Spains and Saffolds of the world. We traded away the one guy who would've been a slam dunk for our roster. They drafted good OL players and kept them.

 

It's no surprise the best Bills' season (AFCCG in 2020) was when we had our best OL and our best WR group of this regime.

 

Two main personnel disparities between the Bills and Chiefs..

 

-They prioritized, and hit, on OL.  
 

-They have had a gamewrecker on the DL.
 

 Coaching aside, what’s the saying … “the game is won in the trenches”?

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I agree.  In that context, I would argue the disparity between us and the Chiefs is simply them hitting on OL talent. Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith would both likely start on this team, (you could argue Morse I suppose, but with his age and concussion history he's a timebomb imo)

 

There has never been a year where our OL has been better than their OL, on the whole. And some folks would say, "we don't emphasize it enough" but the proof is in the pudding. We drafted guys like Ford and Brown.  We signed the Spains and Saffolds of the world. We traded away the one guy who would've been a slam dunk for our roster. They drafted good OL players and kept them.

 

It's no surprise the best Bills' season (AFCCG in 2020) was when we had our best OL and our best WR group of this regime.

 

100%

 

it's a lesson these guys should have learned by now imo: in terms of importance

 

Investing in oline>>>investing on defense

[BullBuchanan]

On 8/3/2023 at 8:57 AM, BuffaloBillyG said:

Which one? Not which position...which player that was available at that pick should have been taken? Or just take one for the sake of taking one? 

The right pick was taking Trenton Simpson when we created a massive hole at the position. Instead the Ravens took him and we all know they have terrible judgement when it comes to front 7 personnel.

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Two main personnel disparities between the Bills and Chiefs..

 

-They prioritized, and hit, on OL.  
 

-They have had a gamewrecker on the DL.
 

 Coaching aside, what’s the saying … “the game is won in the trenches”?

We prioritized plenty. Just haven't hit plenty. Which sucks even worse lmao.

 

Von/Ed were supposed to be our answer for #2. Maybe this year is the year.

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

We prioritized plenty. Just haven't hit plenty. Which sucks even worse lmao.

 

Von/Ed were supposed to be our answer for #2. Maybe this year is the year.

Yea .. I can’t fault Beane for last year on the DL.  If KC lost Jones for the season, they don’t win the Super Bowl either. 
 

OL .. eh, I can’t agree.  KC has been willing to pay elite LT money and elite G money for Brown and Thuney, along with taking a Center people labeled as “can’t miss” high.  

They hit on Trey Smith, because they are willing to take risks… something I hope doesn’t happen again with Justyn Ross.

 

Weve paid good money to Dawkins and Morse, but up until this past year, went stop gap at Guard and bet on a raw RD3 pick at RT. 
 

Some if it is they hit on Smith, while we are wait and see on Brown .. but they’ve also shelled out big money in addition to a high draft pick. 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Halfway through TC, here is the Bills projected 53 man roster

 

Quarterback: Josh Allen, Kyle Allen, Matt Barkley (3)

 

Running back: James Cook, Damien Harris, Latavius Murray, Reggie Gilliam (4)

 

Wide receiver: Stefon Diggs, Gabriel Davis, Khalil Shakir, Deonte Harty, Trent Sherfield, Justin Shorter, Andy Isabella (7)

 

Tight end: Dawson Knox and Dalton Kincaid (2)

 

Offensive line: Dion Dawkins, Connor McGovern, Mitch Morse, O’Cyrus Torrence, Spencer Brown, Ryan Bates, David Edwards, Tommy Doyle, Brandon Shell(9)

 

Defensive Tackles: Ed Oliver, DaQuan Jones, Poona Ford, Tim Settle (4)

 

Defensive ends: Von Miller, Leonard Floyd, Gregory Rousseau, Boogie Basham, A.J. Epenesa (5)

 

Linebackers: Matt Milano, Tyrel Dodson,Terrel Bernard, A.J. Klein, Tyler Matakevich, Dorian Williams (6)

 

Cornerbacks: Tre’Davious White, Taron Johnson, Kaiir Elam, Christina Benford, Siran Neal, Dane Jackson (6)

 

Safety: Micah Hyde, Jordan Poyer, Taylor Rapp, Damar Hamlin (4)

 

Special teams: Tyler Bass, Sam Martin, Reid Ferguson

 

https://buffalowdown.com/posts/buffalo-bills-updated-53-man-roster-projections-halfway-through-training-camp-01h6pf1w5tac/8

 

[Beck Water]

5 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Halfway through TC, here is the Bills projected 53 man roster

 

Quarterback: Josh Allen, Kyle Allen, Matt Barkley (3)

 

Running back: James Cook, Damien Harris, Latavius Murray, Reggie Gilliam (4)

 

Wide receiver: Stefon Diggs, Gabriel Davis, Khalil Shakir, Deonte Harty, Trent Sherfield, Justin Shorter, Andy Isabella (7)

 

Tight end: Dawson Knox and Dalton Kincaid (2)

 

Offensive line: Dion Dawkins, Connor McGovern, Mitch Morse, O’Cyrus Torrence, Spencer Brown, Ryan Bates, David Edwards, Tommy Doyle, Brandon Shell(9)

 

Defensive Tackles: Ed Oliver, DaQuan Jones, Poona Ford, Tim Settle (4)

 

Defensive ends: Von Miller, Leonard Floyd, Gregory Rousseau, Boogie Basham, A.J. Epenesa (5)

 

Linebackers: Matt Milano, Tyrel Dodson,Terrel Bernard, A.J. Klein, Tyler Matakevich, Dorian Williams (6)

 

Cornerbacks: Tre’Davious White, Taron Johnson, Kaiir Elam, Christina Benford, Siran Neal, Dane Jackson (6)

 

Safety: Micah Hyde, Jordan Poyer, Taylor Rapp, Damar Hamlin (4)

 

Special teams: Tyler Bass, Sam Martin, Reid Ferguson

 

https://buffalowdown.com/posts/buffalo-bills-updated-53-man-roster-projections-halfway-through-training-camp-01h6pf1w5tac/8

 

 

zero chance Beane and McDermott keep 7 WR at the expense of only 2 TE (if they expect TE to be a significant part of the offense).  Bad idea.

Also zero chance Beane and McDermott keep only 4 DTs, given how strongly he believes in DL rotation.

[eball]

6 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Yea.. it’s a message board… obviously it is my opinion some of Beane’s move/lack there of have held the team back from getting to and winning a SB… they aren’t even close if Beane doesn’t draft Josh. I know you like to praise everything this team does, especially as the season gets closer and you get more excited, but he’s got his flaws and I’m not confident in his approach to certain positions will be enough to get them there.

Umm, no. What I and most reasonable fans understand is that expecting every move a GM makes to be perfect is foolish. If these guys are right even half the time they are doing a good job — particularly with drafting. 
 

And by the way, I love how you and others actually hold it against Beane that he oversaw the process that identified Josh as their target and then manipulated the draft to go and get him. That’s priceless. 

 

[FireChans]

35 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Yea .. I can’t fault Beane for last year on the DL.  If KC lost Jones for the season, they don’t win the Super Bowl either. 
 

OL .. eh, I can’t agree.  KC has been willing to pay elite LT money and elite G money for Brown and Thuney, along with taking a Center people labeled as “can’t miss” high.  

They hit on Trey Smith, because they are willing to take risks… something I hope doesn’t happen again with Justyn Ross.

 

Weve paid good money to Dawkins and Morse, but up until this past year, went stop gap at Guard and bet on a raw RD3 pick at RT. 
 

Some if it is they hit on Smith, while we are wait and see on Brown .. but they’ve also shelled out big money in addition to a high draft pick. 

I don't consider Orlando Brown or Jawann Taylor to be much different than Dawkins.

 

The elite G thing is correct.

 

We did bet high on a G that some folks had a first round grade on, who was an absolute bust.

 

I guess I would characterize it that the Bills may not have spent exactly as much as the Chiefs have on OL, but it's not that one-sided. It feels that way because guys like Teller and Ford aren't on the team, guys like Doyle/Brown etc. haven't wowed anyone and guys like Morse/Dawkins have been fixtures.

 

If the Bills had Teller/Smith and the Chiefs had Ford/Brown, there would be no question of which team had the better OL.  A couple costly mistakes is the difference.

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

The right pick was taking Trenton Simpson when we created a massive hole at the position. Instead the Ravens took him and we all know they have terrible judgement when it comes to front 7 personnel.

I can see that. Of course Simpson was picked 5 spots ahead of Williams and wasn't on the board at the time. Also, when it comes to Baltimore they have had their share of misfires on front 7 picks as well. So time will definitely tell the story, but I can appreciate and respect you having a firm name. He will definitely be worth keeping an eye on.

[BullBuchanan]

Just now, BuffaloBillyG said:

I can see that. Of course Simpson was picked 5 spots ahead of Williams and wasn't on the board at the time. Also, when it comes to Baltimore they have had their share of misfires on front 7 picks as well. So time will definitely tell the story, but I can appreciate and respect you having a firm name. He will definitely be worth keeping an eye on.

Yea, this isn't really a situation where we can say he wasn't available though, because he slid a lot further than he should have. He could and arguably should have been the pick in the 2nd round or should have been a priority trade up. Instead we have two 3rd round linebackers in back to back years and neither one of them are likely going to be a long term solution at MLB

[YattaOkasan]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

The right pick was taking Trenton Simpson when we created a massive hole at the position. Instead the Ravens took him and we all know they have terrible judgement when it comes to front 7 personnel.

So you wanted us to spend our second on him and not O'cyrus Torrence.  Cause Simpson went before our 3rd round pick.  Or are you saying we shouldve moved up again?  youre gonna need to explain more about "taking Trenton Simpson" to make it the right pick cause its not a simple as the Creed Humphrey/Basham situation.

45 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Halfway through TC, here is the Bills projected 53 man roster

 

Quarterback: Josh Allen, Kyle Allen, Matt Barkley (3)

 

Running back: James Cook, Damien Harris, Latavius Murray, Reggie Gilliam (4)

 

Wide receiver: Stefon Diggs, Gabriel Davis, Khalil Shakir, Deonte Harty, Trent Sherfield, Justin Shorter, Andy Isabella (7)

 

Tight end: Dawson Knox and Dalton Kincaid (2)

 

Offensive line: Dion Dawkins, Connor McGovern, Mitch Morse, O’Cyrus Torrence, Spencer Brown, Ryan Bates, David Edwards, Tommy Doyle, Brandon Shell(9)

 

Defensive Tackles: Ed Oliver, DaQuan Jones, Poona Ford, Tim Settle (4)

 

Defensive ends: Von Miller, Leonard Floyd, Gregory Rousseau, Boogie Basham, A.J. Epenesa (5)

 

Linebackers: Matt Milano, Tyrel Dodson,Terrel Bernard, A.J. Klein, Tyler Matakevich, Dorian Williams (6)

 

Cornerbacks: Tre’Davious White, Taron Johnson, Kaiir Elam, Christina Benford, Siran Neal, Dane Jackson (6)

 

Safety: Micah Hyde, Jordan Poyer, Taylor Rapp, Damar Hamlin (4)

 

Special teams: Tyler Bass, Sam Martin, Reid Ferguson

 

https://buffalowdown.com/posts/buffalo-bills-updated-53-man-roster-projections-halfway-through-training-camp-01h6pf1w5tac/8

 

Gilliam is a TE, I think Morris also makes it (why is Isabella not a PS player), AJ Klein to PS for Cam Lewis, Quessenberry over Doyle (at least from reports so far), and probably Von to PUP for one last player (maybe Spector)

38 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

zero chance Beane and McDermott keep 7 WR at the expense of only 2 TE (if they expect TE to be a significant part of the offense).  Bad idea.

Also zero chance Beane and McDermott keep only 4 DTs, given how strongly he believes in DL rotation.

We ran with 4 DTs last year.  And I think this assumes Phillips on the PUP so we get reinforcements eventually.  Agree on TE (though Gilliam has been playing with them).  

2 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Yea, this isn't really a situation where we can say he wasn't available though, because he slid a lot further than he should have. He could and arguably should have been the pick in the 2nd round or should have been a priority trade up. Instead we have two 3rd round linebackers in back to back years and neither one of them are likely going to be a long term solution at MLB

Thanks for explaining.  Strong disagree on Simpson over Torrence.  Also surprised youre just writing players off after a year.  Assuming you didn't have high thoughts on Knox then.  Lastly in your proposed trade up scenario we have two 3rd rd linebackers in back to back years and you liked one of them so thats why you think we have long term solution?  Feels much the same but we lose another pick later in the draft.      

Edited August 4, 2023 by YattaOkasan

[BullBuchanan]

Just now, YattaOkasan said:

So you wanted us to spend our second on him and not O'cyrus Torrence.  Cause Simpson went before our 3rd round pick.  Or are you saying we shouldve moved up again?  youre gonna need to explain more about "taking Trenton Simpson" to make it the right pick cause its not a simple as the Creed Humphrey/Basham situation.

Gilliam is a TE, I think Morris also makes it (why is Isabella not a PS player), AJ Klein to PS for Cam Lewis, Quessenberry over Doyle (at least from reports so far), and probably Von to PUP for one last player (maybe Spector)

We ran with 4 DTs last year.  And I think this assumes Phillips on the PUP so we get reinforcements eventually.  Agree on TE (though Gilliam has been playing with them).  

Yes to both. He was a good enough prospect that you could make a case for either pick. If they absolutely had to have Torrence, then you trade up. Based on us having Bates already and virtually nothing at MLB, I would have taken Simpson right there in the 2nd. If they didn't want to do that, iw ould have moved back up to get him like I mentioned previously.

[YattaOkasan]

1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said:

Yes to both. He was a good enough prospect that you could make a case for either pick. If they absolutely had to have Torrence, then you trade up. Based on us having Bates already and virtually nothing at MLB, I would have taken Simpson right there in the 2nd. If they didn't want to do that, iw ould have moved back up to get him like I mentioned previously.

I like the trade up scenario better, but its still 3rd round Lbs in back to back years with just as much confidence they can be the long term solution.  Youre just sore they didnt trade up to get your guy it sounds like.  Presumably they like Williams better?  LB hasnt been such a problem as OL in terms of our ability to draft or develop talent.  

[BullBuchanan]

6 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Thanks for explaining.  Strong disagree on Simpson over Torrence.  Also surprised youre just writing players off after a year.  Assuming you didn't have high thoughts on Knox then.  Lastly in your proposed trade up scenario we have two 3rd rd linebackers in back to back years and you liked one of them so thats why you think we have long term solution?  Feels much the same but we lose another pick later in the draft.      

I wrote off Bernard before he was drafted. He isn't built to play MLB in the NFL and was abysmally bad last season.
Knox is a strawman argument, but no I'm not "high" on him either. He's average, but nothing special at all.

You could only think Williams and Simpson are the same if you knew absolutely nothing about them.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

No, I don’t have to explain anything anymore than I already have.  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together here.

 

Well, what are you trying to accomplish here? 

 

If you're trying to persuade some folks, me in particular, you kind of do.  I fit that "not a rocket scientist" criteria just fine, but given the totality of the Bills decisions, I fail to see how drafting different players in the 2nd or 3rd was the "secret sauce" that would have pushed the Bills over the edge into Championshipland.  There's a lot to unpack, and maybe you've studied it and see it differently, but I don't see that "game changer" available at the 2nd and 3rd from 2019 to 2022 that would have meant "Championship!"

 

I would have liked to see Creed Humphrey instead of Boogie Basham, but since C is one of our OL strengths, it's a pig-in-the-poke to know if he would have really made a difference at G

 

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

If we would’ve drafted some impact players in rd 2 and 3 as opposed to some of the busts that we drafted we may have beaten KC in jan 2022.  Maybe even KC in 21 and cinci in 23.   
 

no, I can’t scientifically prove that we could have won.  I just know that good players help win titles.  Bums don’t.  There were some very good players available when we selected bums.  Different selections MAY HAVE led to different fates the last few years

 

When you go to "may have", you're moving away from the definitive "He’s been really bad drafting rd 2-3 and that is what is keeping this team from being a champion" statement I first responded to.

 

It's really hard to dispute with "MAY".  A lot of things MAY have contributed, so I have no particular disagreement with that. 

[YattaOkasan]

6 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

I wrote off Bernard before he was drafted. He isn't built to play MLB in the NFL and was abysmally bad last season.
Knox is a strawman argument, but no I'm not "high" on him either. He's average, but nothing special at all.

You could only think Williams and Simpson are the same if you knew absolutely nothing about them.

They are only not the same in your evaluation.  at this point having not played a game in the NFL and being drafted in similar spots i think its fair to treat them similarly.  The knox question was getting to your ability to evaluate.  I dont see any reason to trust your evaluation at this point over the staff that found/developed Luke Kuechly, Matt Milano, Tremaine Edmunds (are there any misses really for Beane/McD at LB?).  

[NewEra]

25 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Well, what are you trying to accomplish here? 

 

If you're trying to persuade some folks, me in particular, you kind of do.  I fit that "not a rocket scientist" criteria just fine, but given the totality of the Bills decisions, I fail to see how drafting different players in the 2nd or 3rd was the "secret sauce" that would have pushed the Bills over the edge into Championshipland.  There's a lot to unpack, and maybe you've studied it and see it differently, but I don't see that "game changer" available at the 2nd and 3rd from 2019 to 2022 that would have meant "Championship!"

 

I would have liked to see Creed Humphrey instead of Boogie Basham, but since C is one of our OL strengths, it's a pig-in-the-poke to know if he would have really made a difference at G

 

 

When you go to "may have", you're moving away from the definitive "He’s been really bad drafting rd 2-3 and that is what is keeping this team from being a champion" statement I first responded to.

 

It's really hard to dispute with "MAY".  A lot of things MAY have contributed, so I have no particular disagreement with that. 

I obviously don’t know for a fact if we would’ve been a champions if he was had drafted better in rd 2 and 3.  I thought that was implied.  

 

I’m stating my opinion as to why we aren’t champions yet on a message board.  I didn’t know one had to have proof for their opinion.  
 

i probably say imo or jmo more than anyone on this board just to avoid this type of nitpicking and waste of my time.  
 

Maybe I should start every post with imo or jmo for clarification 

[BullBuchanan]

7 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

They are only not the same in your evaluation.  at this point having not played a game in the NFL and being drafted in similar spots i think its fair to treat them similarly.  The knox question was getting to your ability to evaluate.  I dont see any reason to trust your evaluation at this point over the staff that found/developed Luke Kuechly, Matt Milano, Tremaine Edmunds (are there any misses really for Beane/McD at LB?).  

Well Maybe you should, because Beane didn't draft Kuechly or Milano.

As for misses, yes there are plenty. VoSean Joseph being notable int hat he didn't even make the roster as a rookie and never played a down in the NFL.

Bernard was drafted int he 3rd round last year and was inactive most of the season. Williams was drafted this year in the 3rd round and despite a massive hole int eh middle of our defense, he isn't even being considered for the position. He'll likely be inactive most of the year as well if he can't carve out a role on ST.

A better question to ask than what are the misses is "what are the hits?" They traded up in the 1st round to get Edmunds and throughout his time here he was extremely controversial. Yea, he got signed to a pile of money, but the jury is still very much out on whether or not he's actually a good football player. He made two pro bowls, both as alternates. He has never received more than 2 votes for all-pro

[BuffaloBillyG]

47 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Yea, this isn't really a situation where we can say he wasn't available though, because he slid a lot further than he should have. He could and arguably should have been the pick in the 2nd round or should have been a priority trade up. Instead we have two 3rd round linebackers in back to back years and neither one of them are likely going to be a long term solution at MLB

Well, moving up for Kincaid pretty much meant Beane wasn't moving up on day 2.  Can't place the blame there. We walked out of the 1st 2 rounds potentially filling other big holes as well. 

 

As far as picking him in Rd2, 32 out of 32 NFL GMs decided that would have been too rich. 

[BullBuchanan]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Well, moving up for Kincaid pretty much meant Beane wasn't moving up on day 2.  Can't place the blame there. We walked out of the 1st 2 rounds potentially filling other big holes as well. 

 

As far as picking him in Rd2, 32 out of 32 NFL GMs decided that would have been too rich. 

I don't really put much, if any stock into that. GMs are wrong constantly. They all decided Metcalf shouldn't be taken in the first round too.

[folz]

6 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Wrong. You're the one in denial if you think Gabe is even in the same ballpark as 2 guys you listed that are bordering #1 WRs.

 

Having more than half your games with 2 catches for under 35-40yds is a #3 WR at best. A #2 needs to find a way to contribute. Gabe does nothing with the field Diggs opens up for him, and went over 100yards once.

 

Gabe contribution was to let Stef get bracketed, consequence free. Not help move the chains, and generate incompletions (and 6 ints thrown his way on 48 catches because he cant separate). 

 

I don't think your stat is as definitive as you believe it to be. It is the nature of #2 wide receivers to be a bit up and down throughout the season depending on opponent, game plan, etc. If you've ever played fantasy football...that becomes very clear. And that isn't even taking into account injuries.

 

Plus, you are exaggerating a bit now too. Gabe had 4 games with 2 or fewer receptions (that is 23.5%---not more than half). Gabe did have 8 games with 40 yards or less (still less than 50% in a 17 game season). He did have 10 games with 3 or fewer receptions (finally matching your more than 50% quote). I'm not saying I wouldn't like Gabe to be more consistent and even more productive, that would be great (and he may prove that this year---he's still young)...but it is not uncommon for #2 WRs to have at least a handful of quiet games.

 

And by no means am I comparing Gabe to the players below, just trying to point out that this stat that you are holding on to does not really denote failure for a #2 WR (again, especially when you aren't factoring in injuries).

 

2022

Tee Higgins had 6 games under 50 yards

Jaylen Waddle had 6 games with 1-3 recs and fewer than 50 yards

Davonta Smith had 7 games under 50 yards (including a 0, 17, 22, 23, 39, 44, 50)

 

And those three are currently considered the best #2s in the league right now. Guys who were drafted 33rd, 6th, and 10th overall (compared to Gabe, 128th overall) and who would all be #1s on any team that didn't happen to already have a superstar ahead of them. 

 

Too often, when talking #2 WRs, people compare Gabe to the top 3-5 #2 WRs in the league only (all who were drafted significantly higher than Gabe).

 

Yet, as it is, only 6 #2 WRs had more yards than Gabe last year and only 1 #2 WR had more TDs than Gabe last year. If you compared Gabe to all #2 WRs, not just the top few guys, you would see that Gabe did perform as a top 5/6 #2 WR last season (in all areas but comp. %...and there are reasons for that too beyond just his drops, which he needs to clean up---a lot of low percentage passes thrown his way, i.e. bombs, etc.).

 

But no, that's alright, you go ahead and keep saying Gabe is barely even a #3 WR. 🙄

[BillsShredder83]

4 hours ago, folz said:

 

I don't think your stat is as definitive as you believe it to be. It is the nature of #2 wide receivers to be a bit up and down throughout the season depending on opponent, game plan, etc. If you've ever played fantasy football...that becomes very clear. And that isn't even taking into account injuries.

 

Plus, you are exaggerating a bit now too. Gabe had 4 games with 2 or fewer receptions (that is 23.5%---not more than half). Gabe did have 8 games with 40 yards or less (still less than 50% in a 17 game season). He did have 10 games with 3 or fewer receptions (finally matching your more than 50% quote). I'm not saying I wouldn't like Gabe to be more consistent and even more productive, that would be great (and he may prove that this year---he's still young)...but it is not uncommon for #2 WRs to have at least a handful of quiet games.

 

And by no means am I comparing Gabe to the players below, just trying to point out that this stat that you are holding on to does not really denote failure for a #2 WR (again, especially when you aren't factoring in injuries).

 

2022

Tee Higgins had 6 games under 50 yards

Jaylen Waddle had 6 games with 1-3 recs and fewer than 50 yards

Davonta Smith had 7 games under 50 yards (including a 0, 17, 22, 23, 39, 44, 50)

 

And those three are currently considered the best #2s in the league right now. Guys who were drafted 33rd, 6th, and 10th overall (compared to Gabe, 128th overall) and who would all be #1s on any team that didn't happen to already have a superstar ahead of them. 

 

Too often, when talking #2 WRs, people compare Gabe to the top 3-5 #2 WRs in the league only (all who were drafted significantly higher than Gabe).

 

Yet, as it is, only 6 #2 WRs had more yards than Gabe last year and only 1 #2 WR had more TDs than Gabe last year. If you compared Gabe to all #2 WRs, not just the top few guys, you would see that Gabe did perform as a top 5/6 #2 WR last season (in all areas but comp. %...and there are reasons for that too beyond just his drops, which he needs to clean up---a lot of low percentage passes thrown his way, i.e. bombs, etc.).

 

But no, that's alright, you go ahead and keep saying Gabe is barely even a #3 WR. 🙄

The yards isn't a problem. 48 catches sucks.  He has 48 catches because he's worthless on short routes. Diggs can't do it all as the focal point of the defense.

 

2-3 catch games should not be the norm. He had a 48rec season because he's a deep guy only and needs 5secs to get even minimal separation.  

 

It's true we need someone to step up in the slot and help us move the chains, but we needed Gabe to step up and help out on 3rd downs. 3rd and short and our #2 has to run 30yard routes! He commands zero respect on 3rd and short, feels like lining up with 10 men.

 

I'm a glass half full guy, would love to see him step up... but the Dink n dunk we've run at times is the best our offense has EVER looked... what's his role in that offense? Cause it's not a #2

[4merper4mer]

On 8/3/2023 at 1:25 PM, Bangarang said:

Kid needs to make that catch. 

Who cares?  It’s practice.