Training Camp - 8/3 - 9:45am

[Beck Water]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

disagree...ball hit him right in the hands in stride and he just never squeezed it.

 

it was a bad drop

 

 

 

Yeah, that was a clear drop.  He never caught it cleanly, he bodied it.

[FLFan]

23 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but this narrative needs to go away.  He did not drop that ball, there is a big difference in a "drop" and a ball that slightly moved on a diving catch 60 yards down field on a rope from Allen laying out to make the play.  

 

People keep saying "drop" as if he flat out muffed it, but that was not the case and this was not an easy catch to make and maintain control.  Ball traveled 60+ yards on a rope from Allen where he layed out on a diving catch where he made the catch but on the impact the ball slightly moved and as he rolled after hitting the ground the tip of the ball touched the turf.  He never lost the ball and by all accounts it seemed like a clear catch until one angle showed the tip of the ball knick the ground and had to be over turned on replay.  

 

Too much is made of this play as if the ball hit him in the hands and he just dropped it.  

Cold hard facts and logic will get you nowhere in changing this narrative around here.

[HappyDays]

Updates from Matt Parrino and Ryan Talbot today:

 

Quote

Matt here again. Spirited period of 1on1s between WR/DB.

Stefon Diggs and Tre White continue the daily battle. White with perfect coverage on one rep that led to incompletion. Diggs comes back with just insane footwork to separate and make a play on the ball. Refs said he was out of bounds.

Kaiir Elam was the star of the session. He's so aggressive in press man. He had one rep against Deonte Harty that just was wow. Step for step with arguably quickest on team. No window for the QB. Elam also had a Pass breakup vs Diggs.

The catch of the session was Tyrell Shavers. He just cooked Christian Benford and made the TD grab.

 

Quote

Matt back & practice just ended so let me empty out the notebook.

Terrell Bernard played MLB with the 1s and got burned by Dawson Knox for a TD. Taylor Rapp got a rep with the 1s at nickel corner, further proving that he could be used in fun ways with Poyer & Hyde on the field.

Ryan Bates was at right guard with the 1s. David Edward's was back at LG for a few periods with 1s so Connor McGovern could play center with the 2s. McGovern bounced back to first team LG for final few periods,

Stefon Diggs didn't take too kindly from a hard push out of bounds from Micah Hyde after a catch. Diggs turned and threw ball at 23. Didn't hit him.

 

Quote

Kaiir Elam was outstanding today. You can see the Bills putting him in advantageous spots to help him use his skills in press. On one play, Elam was covering Diggs, who was Allen's first read. He waited but had to go to no. 2 because of Elam's coverage. Allen threw to Shakir in back of end zone but he couldn't make catch. Later he locked up 1on1 with Trent Sherfield. Kaiir bumped him off the line and the WR couldn't get to the spot Josh Allen was targeting. Elam stepped in front and picked off the pass.

Dane Jackson turned in highlight play too, picking off a bad throw from Allen (throwing across body) while covering Gabe Davis.

 

[CookieG]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

They discussed the plan at the time.  They like him, they don't want to overload him, they plan to start him learning WLB and playing ST this season and develop from there.  The MLB is a complex role, he has to not only know his role but the role of the other LB, the nickel, the DBs on every play call and then how that changes with pre snap and post snap motion.

There was also a run on MLB's in the 3rd round.  Drew Sanders, Daiyan Henley, Trenton Simpson (who might not be a true Mike) and Overshown were all taken in the 3rd round before DW.  All have some talent, all needed/need some work.  Maybe you can argue that they could have taken Sanders in the 2nd...but I'd rather have Torrance.  Give me what could be the best interior OL for  a team with a shaky OL any day.

 

Maybe you can argue they panicked a bit, watching so many MLBs go off the board.  But idk, I like him..the more I watched his games after the draft, after watching some before, I like what he can do.  When he learns the system, they can find a way to get him into games. 

[Beck Water]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Brandon Aiyuk/Chris Godwin/Mike Williams for sure

 

there are others that are close

 

OK!  Someone with an answer!  And it's a fair one from the point of view that they've been their team's #1 receiver last year or close due to injuries, which changes how they're seen.  So I don't think those teams are taking that deal, but the point is valid that they're one of two very high quality receivers on their team.

 

Sure - if they'd trade them, I'd go for that.

 

So kudos for a plausible answer.

 

 

 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

2 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

You are correct. Don't understand this coaching staff. Elam was the best defender on the field in the playoffs. Was far better than White. 

Let the kid play. 

Blind spot for the coaching staff in that he doesn't fit perfectly with their philosophy. They need to not be so stubborn!

[MasterStrategist]

8 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Yeah, that was a clear drop.  He never caught it cleanly, he bodied it.

It was a drop for sure, but then he follows it up with a clutch late game play:

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/khalil-shakir-with-a-spectacular-catch-for-a-33-yard-gain-bills-vs-dolphins

 

It's this type of potential, he needs to be more consistent which is definitely possible.

[Alphadawg7]

12 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

It’s tough to envision Bernard sticking around at MLB. Obviously he’s there now but that seems more because it’s slim pickings at the position. The depth there is probably why people are even entertaining the idea of Williams playing the position. We’re throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks. I anticipate Williams having a Bernard-esque rookie year. Beyond that, I don’t see where he actually fits in.

 

Don't get me wrong, we have a hole there until someone steps in and takes the job.  And if this is still a hole next offseason, someone will be signed or drafted I am sure so they don't have to rely on someone like Bernard or Dorian if they don't feel they can handle the job.  But I am just saying that I am not too concerned about where Dorian is playing today, they said they didn't want him learning two positions at once.  

[Beck Water]

2 minutes ago, FLFan said:

Cold hard facts and logic will get you nowhere in changing this narrative around here.

 

Except if we're talking about that drop in the Miami game, from the replay it wasn't a clean catch.  it was a difficult catch, but his hands weren't in the right place and it kind of seemed he wasn't "looking it in".  So the cold hard facts and logic kinda go the other way.

[FLFan]

10 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Are you at TC or did you see a replay of this somewhere?  Linky if the latter.  More news, please, if the former.

 

If it's as you described, that's very very tough and sounds like it should have been a catch.  I don't think "the tip of the ball touched the ground" should overturn unless it is clear that happened first, before he got his hands on it.  If it just touched the ground as he rolled, that should be a catch.

He is talking about the play in the playoff game.  I think we all saw that.  

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

If Brown is out, I'd like to see David Edwards get a shot at tackle which he played in college.

[FLFan]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Except if we're talking about that drop in the Miami game, from the replay it wasn't a clean catch.  it was a difficult catch, but his hands weren't in the right place and it kind of seemed he wasn't "looking it in".  So the cold hard facts and logic kinda go the other way.

Whatever you say I guess, but not how I saw it.  It was a tough catch to make.  Could it have been made? Sure, but it is hardly cause for the endless hand wringing around here about Shakir’s so called ball dropping tendencies.  I particularly like the conclusions being based on his “10% drop rate” which anyone should be able to understand is meaningless on a statistically insignificant sample size like 20 targets.  As for the camp critiques based on twitter reports of other people without context, I find those just about as meaningless.  All that is really saying it far too early to write him off.  

Edited August 3, 2023 by FLFan

[78thealltimegreat]

17 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

OK. 

Barring Tee Higgins, DeVanta Parker, Jaylen Waddle, and maybe Tyler Lockett, who you want to trade him for, straight up?

 

Don't say OBJ or DeAndre Hopkins, we'll see about them. 

Someone who was more productive LAST YEAR in terms of receiving yards/game and had a better catch % than Davis.

This should have been rectified in the off season this team is stuck with him so  cross your fingers on everything thrown near him. 

[Alphadawg7]

15 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Are you at TC or did you see a replay of this somewhere?  Linky if the latter.  More news, please, if the former.

 

If it's as you described, that's very very tough and sounds like it should have been a catch.  I don't think "the tip of the ball touched the ground" should overturn unless it is clear that happened first, before he got his hands on it.  If it just touched the ground as he rolled, that should be a catch.

 

No sorry, wasn't about TC today, this was the play he was talking about from the Dolphins playoff game last year that we were discussing. 

[NewEra]

47 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Uh oh...

And thus it begins

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

If Brown is out, I'd like to see David Edwards get a shot at tackle which he played in college.

 

It's worth noting that when Edwards arrived, he made a point that Kromer in LA tried the OLmen at every position but C.  He played behind a very good RT in LA.  But, a lot of G played RT in college and are IOL in the league.

 

It will be "up to" Kromer to assess which of Edwards, Shell (who has started 72 games at RT in the league) or maybe Gouraige is 'next man up'.

 

Tough circumstance for Brown, though.  Back injuries in a big OLman are hard to return from and reach potential.

 

5 minutes ago, FLFan said:

Whatever you say I guess, but not how I saw it.  

 

Can we agree on the point that if it's ambiguous that different people see it differently, it's not a cold hard facts and logic thing?

Edited August 3, 2023 by Beck Water

[Alphadawg7]

13 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Except if we're talking about that drop in the Miami game, from the replay it wasn't a clean catch.  it was a difficult catch, but his hands weren't in the right place and it kind of seemed he wasn't "looking it in".  So the cold hard facts and logic kinda go the other way.

 

A flat out drop and not a clean catch all the way through are not exactly the same thing though.  People keep calling it a drop as if he literally dropped the ball.  And no disrespect to anyone, but most the people being hyper critical on that play don't understand the dynamics of difficulty in that catch.  Ball was on a rope 60 yards in the air, diving catch, and as rookie in his first playoff game with little play time prior to this.  Diggs has flat out dropped easy passes including TD's, yet is a top 5 WR.  But people harp on this one play, that yes would have been nice if he completed it, as if this one play defines the kids career forever.

 

It still is a "drop" on the stat sheet, but this was not like many drops Davis, McKenzie, Knox, etc had on way easier passes last year.  I just think people need to stop over exaggerating and drilling so hard on this one play to condemn this kids entire future.  

 

Shakir may or may not make it in this league, but one thing for sure is that this one play isn't enough to figure that out.  

Edited August 3, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Beck Water]

4 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

This should have been rectified in the off season this team is stuck with him so  cross your fingers on everything thrown near him. 

 

I agree that I would have liked to see the team make more of an off-season move at WR, and I am uncertain about the ROI we'll get from Harty given his obvious talent, but also his obvious size and injury history.

 

Honestly, though, it was not a great year for FA WR.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/wide-receiver/all/

[78thealltimegreat]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

I agree that I would have liked to see the team make more of an off-season move at WR, and I am uncertain about the ROI we'll get from Harty given his obvious talent, but also his obvious size and injury history.

 

Honestly, though, it was not a great year for FA WR.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/wide-receiver/all/

I like Harty they really haven’t had a receiver like him recently 

[Beck Water]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

A drop and not a clean catch are not the same thing though.  People keep calling it a drop as if he literally dropped the ball.  And no disrespect to anyone, but most the people being hyper critical on that play don't understand the dynamics of difficulty in that catch.  Ball was on a rope 60 yards in the air, diving catch, and as rookie in his first playoff game with little play time prior to this.  Diggs has flat out dropped easy passes including TD's, yet is a top 5 WR.  But people harp on this one play, that yes would have been nice if he completed it, as if this one play defines the kids career forever.

 

It still is a "drop" on the stat sheet, but this was not like many drops Davis, McKenzie, Knox, etc had on way easier passes last year.  People need to stop over exaggerating and drilling so hard on this one play to condemn this kids entire future.  

 

Shakir may or may not make it in this league, but one thing for sure is that this one play isn't enough to figure that out.  

 

I don't disagree that one play shouldn't define him. 

 

I think people are more reacting to the combination of that play, along with some reported struggles he seems to be having in camp.

 

And I'm more reacting to the description in your previous post "he made the catch but on the impact the ball slightly moved and as he rolled after hitting the ground the tip of the ball touched the turf".  It seems pretty clear in the replay that he never made a clean catch with both hands on the ball or a hand and his body demonstrating control - it was between his arms and his body which is why it was overturned, not because "he made the catch but on impact the ball slightly moved and the tip of the ball touched".

 

If the receiver has control of the ball with his hands, it's not supposed to matter if the ball moves a little or part of it touches the ground.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Beck Water