PFF Top 50 Players for 2023 - Josh Allen at 12, Diggs at 24

[Lost]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff50-ranking-50-best-players-2023

 

Josh Allen is the second best QB ranked presumably behind Mahomes but still they don't see him as a top 10 player 🤯

 

 Diggs is the 5 best receiver ranked.  

[Airseven]

Allen isn't ranked second best.

[wppete]

Absolutely insane they have Josh Allen at #12.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

8 minutes ago, Airseven said:

Allen isn't ranked second best.

[BananaB]

His turnovers pushed him outside the top 10

[Robert James]

18 minutes ago, Airseven said:

Allen isn't ranked second best.

I'm guessing Mahomes, Burrow, and Jalen Hurts are all ranked ahead of him.  They've got to be in the top 50.

[Mikie2times]

They have Rogers at 45 and Herbert at 35. That tells me this has nothing to do with positional value. Clearly Josh is easily a Top 10 and likely Top 5/3 with positional value. 
 

They have to have Burrow and Hurts ahead of him. Obviously Mahomes as well. I won’t argue Burrow, but I would disagree Hurts has shown enough. Let’s see him do it again this year. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Mikie2times

[Lost]

17 minutes ago, wppete said:

Absolutely insane they have Josh Allen at #12.

 

Yeah.  I can't really come up with another player in this league who if you removed them from the field would cause the team to basically implode moreso than Josh Allen.   Mahomes is pretty vital to his team but even when they threw in Chad Henne in during the playoff game against the Bengals, he went on a 98yd scoring drive with them.

 

One could make a case that Von Miller is the best edge rusher in the modern era but we went on a 6 game win streak without him last season.  

[Airseven]

14 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I'm guessing Mahomes, Burrow, and Jalen Hurts are all ranked ahead of him.  They've got to be in the top 50.

 

Indeed. It makes sense that Allen would be outside the top 10 as the #4 ranked player at his position. The Allen/Hurts/Herbert debate is a good one. Mahomes and Burrow are on another level. Allen needs to cut down on the crushing mistakes...and reach a Super Bowl...to achieve elite QB status (as opposed to his current elite athlete status). 

[Airseven]

19 minutes ago, Lost said:

I can't really come up with another player in this league who if you removed them from the field would cause the team to basically implode moreso than Josh Allen.   Mahomes is pretty vital to his team but even when they threw in Chad Henne in during the playoff game against the Bengals, he went on a 98yd scoring drive with them.

 

This ranking is of the 50 best players. It's not ranking most valuable players to their team.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Airseven

[Billl]

24 minutes ago, Airseven said:

 

Indeed. It makes sense that Allen would be outside the top 10 as the #4 ranked player at his position. The Allen/Hurts/Herbert debate is a good one. Mahomes and Burrow are on another level. Allen needs to cut down on the crushing mistakes...and reach a Super Bowl...to achieve elite QB status (as opposed to his current elite athlete status). 

Herbert doesn’t belong anywhere near that group.  He’s in the Cousins and Dak range.

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Airseven said:

 

Indeed. It makes sense that Allen would be outside the top 10 as the #4 ranked player at his position. The Allen/Hurts/Herbert debate is a good one. Mahomes and Burrow are on another level. Allen needs to cut down on the crushing mistakes...and reach a Super Bowl...to achieve elite QB status (as opposed to his current elite athlete status). 

You can make an argument that Mahomes is on another level above Allen based on his extraordinary playoff production.  But Joe Burrow?  Sorry he is at best even with Allen.

 

Reaching a Super Bowl is not a distinguishing factor for elite QB play. Reaching multiple Super Bowls and winning multiple Super Bowls is.  If a one off Super Bowl appearance makes you elite then Trent Dilfer was elite.

 

The Bills finished 14 - 4 and lost ONLY one game due to Allen's "crushing mistakes". 

 

 

 

 

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

12 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

You can make an argument that Mahomes is on another level above Allen based on his extraordinary playoff production.  But Joe Burrow?  Sorry he is at best even with Allen.

 

Reaching a Super Bowl is not a distinguishing factor for elite QB play. Reaching multiple Super Bowls and winning multiple Super Bowls is.  If a one off Super Bowl appearance makes you elite then Trent Dilfer was elite.

 

The Bills finished 14 - 4 and lost ONLY one game due to Allen's "crushing mistakes". 

 

 

 

 

 

For me it always will come back to the situation they ended up in. If you take Burrow and put him in Buffalo for last year...how many games do they win? With a rookie OC and Diggs his only great target...I don't see 13 wins. Maybe 11...10?

 

Now put Allen in the Cincinnati offense. Offensive minded HC. Chase, Higgins, Boyd. Mixon with a run game. They (IMO) make the Super Bowl and win by 2 TDs. 

 

Now, Burrow has skill and is calm under pressure. But in no way shape or for can I see him even equal to Allen skill wise without the plush situation he landed in. 

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, Airseven said:

 

Indeed. It makes sense that Allen would be outside the top 10 as the #4 ranked player at his position. The Allen/Hurts/Herbert debate is a good one. Mahomes and Burrow are on another level. Allen needs to cut down on the crushing mistakes...and reach a Super Bowl...to achieve elite QB status (as opposed to his current elite athlete status). 

Lol what has Burrow done to be ranked above Allen

[Billsflyer12]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Lol what has Burrow done to be ranked above Allen

More passing attempts, completions, yards, and touchdowns.  Fewer interceptions and turnovers.  Made a Super Bowl and AFC Championship games in back to back years.

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Billsflyer12 said:

More passing attempts, completions, yards, and touchdowns.  Fewer interceptions and turnovers.  Made a Super Bowl and AFC Championship games in back to back years.

is this the part where we pretend he didn't rush for 760 yards and 7TDs

[KDIGGZ]

Hurts isn't better than Josh Allen lol. He's Tua minus the injuries. He's a limited player who they don't ask to do too much

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

I love this

[Nelius]

3 hours ago, Airseven said:

 

Indeed. It makes sense that Allen would be outside the top 10 as the #4 ranked player at his position. The Allen/Hurts/Herbert debate is a good one. Mahomes and Burrow are on another level. Allen needs to cut down on the crushing mistakes...and reach a Super Bowl...to achieve elite QB status (as opposed to his current elite athlete status). 

Always gotta get that weird stretch jab in…
 

Hurts/Allen is maybe a debate. Herbert is nowhere near them and an objective analyst like yourself should be fully aware of this. By all accounts Herbert was disappointing last year because he clearly didn’t take the step forward that many were waiting for. Want 280 yds 1 Td and few impactful plays? That’s Herbert every single week. I’d take Lawrence before him easy.

[Billsflyer12]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

is this the part where we pretend he didn't rush for 760 yards and 7TDs

I would take Allen, but while they are different QBs they are really close.  I could make lots of good arguments for Burrow being better.  I could NOT make any arguments other then he made Super Bowl for Hurts being better then Allen.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Billsflyer12

[Airseven]

44 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Reaching a Super Bowl is not a distinguishing factor for elite QB play.

Reaching a Super Bowl is a distinguishing factor in separating the upper echelon. If Hurts is ranked #9-10, I bet his Super Bowl appearance was the trump card over Allen.

[NewEra]

Mahomes, Allen and Burrow, They’re all beyond amazing QBs.  On any given Sunday each one can be the best player on the planet.  Hurts is knocking on that door.  Another season like last and I’d have no problem if someone wanted to include him on that list.  He was special last year.  
 

Hurts and Mahomes also have the advantage of having elite OLs in front of them while Allen and Burrow have had poor OL.  Hurts, Burrow and Mahomes have the advantage of having played with elite playmakers as well as having great offensive head coaches.  
 

Allen has definitely behind the 8 ball with “what a QB wants and needs” when compared to the other top QBs.  Hopefully the additions this offseason will turn out to be take our to the next level.  
 

 

kincaid-HoF

14 minutes ago, Airseven said:

Reaching a Super Bowl is a distinguishing factor in separating the upper echelon. If Hurts is ranked #9-10, I bet his Super Bowl appearance was the trump card over Allen.

what if he’s ranked 2nd-8th?

 

19 turnovers to 8 turnovers. You said it earlier in the thread why allen isn’t in the top 10.  Crushing mistakes and turnovers.  Hurts played pretty much error free ball all season.  That’s why he’s ahead of him imo

[Ya Digg?]

So the knock against Allen a couple of years ago was because he had only done it for one season, so he shouldn’t be in front of other QBs-why are the goal posts changing for Hurts? Allen was better in most statistics his 3rd year compared to Hurts. Do it for another season and then people can put him up there, but not yet.

 

Is Burrow really blowing people out of the water with his 200 yards and 1 touchdown a game average in the playoffs???? I understand his team beat the Bills last year and he has gone to a Super Bowl, but has he ever played exceptionally well in the playoffs? 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

4 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

So the knock against Allen a couple of years ago was because he had only done it for one season, so he shouldn’t be in front of other QBs-why are the goal posts changing for Hurts? Allen was better in most statistics his 3rd year compared to Hurts. Do it for another season and then people can put him up there, but not yet.

 

Is Burrow really blowing people out of the water with his 200 yards and 1 touchdown a game average in the playoffs???? I understand his team beat the Bills last year and he has gone to a Super Bowl, but has he ever played exceptionally well in the playoffs? 

 

I was arguing with some co-workers about this. 

 

Josh has 3 playoff games (Colts, Patriots, Chiefs) that are far and away better than Burrow's best playoff game. 

 

I think it's silly to say that Burrow is a better playoff performer just because he has a defense that actually shows up. 

[julian]

Am I missing something here, I just seen Sam Monson interviewing on one Bills drive and said Allen is #12 but the #2 QB on the list.

Edited July 21, 2023 by julian

[NoHuddleKelly12]

4 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

How did Shatner slip past the Emmys with acting chops like this??? 😂

[Airseven]

51 minutes ago, NewEra said:

what if he’s ranked 2nd-8th?

 

19 turnovers to 8 turnovers. You said it earlier in the thread why allen isn’t in the top 10.  Crushing mistakes and turnovers.  Hurts played pretty much error free ball all season.  That’s why he’s ahead of him imo

Fair. If there’s more separation between them then more factors in play. 
 

The fact Allen is still gaffe prone after five seasons is a limiting factor. You’d think by now his ball security, decision making, accuracy/touch, and footwork (and composure) would be a little more polished. He’s still a rollercoaster. Fun, no doubt. But still goes off the cliff.

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, Airseven said:

Fair. If there’s more separation between them then more factors in play. 
 

The fact Allen is still gaffe prone after five seasons is a limiting factor. You’d think by now his ball security, decision making, accuracy/touch, and footwork (and composure) would be a little more polished. He’s still a rollercoaster. Fun, no doubt. But still goes off the cliff.

I think he had a wonky run last year partly because he had no confidence going over the middle to anyone except Diggs.  Also partly due of his injury. Speculation on my part. He made some head scratching throws- don’t get me wrong.  He has his faults. 
 

allen only had 3 more ints than Burrow.  His many fumbles were partly on him- but also because he has to play Superman more often than not because he doesn’t have the OL, Playmakers or offensive coaching the others have

[Nelius]

still goes off a cliff...like a rollercoaster?

[Doc Brown]

Top 10 guess in no order considering none were in 11-50: 

 

Nick Bosa, Myles Garrett, Patrick Mahomes, Travis Kelce, Micah Parsons, Aaron Donald, Trent Williams, Chris Jones, DeVantae Adams, Joe Burrow.

 

That leaves Hurts out of the top 50 behind Lamar and Herbert.  Eagles fans are going to be thrilled.

 

 

 

 

53 minutes ago, julian said:

Am I missing something here, I just seen Sam Monson interviewing on one Bills drive and said Allen is #12 but the #2 QB on the list.

He was #2 on Monson's list but this is PFF as a whole's list.  He's the #3 QB on this list.

[GoBills808]

18 minutes ago, Nelius said:

still goes off a cliff...like a rollercoaster?

my least favorite kind of rollercoaster

[Franco_92]

In the playoffs, Joe Burrow has played 7 games, Allen has played 8. Burrow has 10 TDs (9 pass, 1 run), Allen has 20 TDs (17 pass, 2 run, 1 catch). Allen has 5 turnovers, Burrow has 4. 

Allen's team's defense has gifted him 7 turnovers, Burrow's has gifted him 13. 

 

In Burrow's super bowl run the offense had 45 drives by my count, and scored 7 touchdowns. In 2021 alone, Josh Allen led the Bills offense to 12 touchdowns in 16 drives

 

Burrow has led NO fourth quarter touchdown drives in 7 career postseason games

 

I don't really want to hear about how "Burrow has made it to a Super Bowl and Allen hasn't"

Allen probably has 2 super bowl wins if he was the Bengals QB for the 21 and 22 playoff runs.

 

[julian]

34 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Top 10 guess in no order considering none were in 11-50: 

 

Nick Bosa, Myles Garrett, Patrick Mahomes, Travis Kelce, Micah Parsons, Aaron Donald, Trent Williams, Chris Jones, DeVantae Adams, Joe Burrow.

 

That leaves Hurts out of the top 50 behind Lamar and Herbert.  Eagles fans are going to be thrilled.

 

 

 

 

He was #2 on Monson's list but this is PFF as a whole's list.  He's the #3 QB on this list.

Ahhh.. ok thanks brother

[Alphadawg7]

6 hours ago, Airseven said:

Allen isn't ranked second best.

 

If the NFL drafted today, he would more often than not be drafted 2nd overall behind Mahomes.  Some would (foolishly) take Burrow, but more would take Allen after Mahomes.  

 

Its crazy to me the amount of crap Allen gets despite being universally recognized as one of the top 5 QB's in the league, even by his detractors.  I am not sure I have never seen a top 5 QB get so much flack for basically not being ranked #1.  And the reality is, Allen has mostly been as good as Mahomes has while working with less on offense.  It wasn't Allens fault the ST and Defense mailed it in over those 13 seconds, otherwise he might already have his SB ring.  But even with the D and ST letting him down, Allen is still 2-1 vs Mahomes the last 2 years, all in KC too.  

2 hours ago, Airseven said:

Reaching a Super Bowl is a distinguishing factor in separating the upper echelon. If Hurts is ranked #9-10, I bet his Super Bowl appearance was the trump card over Allen.

 

This is unfortunately true, and it is why some say Burrow is better when Allen literally obliterates Burrows playoff stats as a QB.  But Burrow reaching a SB after the 13 second debacle cost us our shot the week before against KC and the Bengals taking advantage of a flat Bills team makes people rank Burrow ahead of Allen even though Burrow has statistically been dwarfed by Allen in the playoffs as a QB.  

 

40 minutes ago, arcane said:

In the playoffs, Joe Burrow has played 7 games, Allen has played 8. Burrow has 10 TDs (9 pass, 1 run), Allen has 20 TDs (17 pass, 2 run, 1 catch). Allen has 5 turnovers, Burrow has 4. 

Allen's team's defense has gifted him 7 turnovers, Burrow's has gifted him 13. 

 

In Burrow's super bowl run the offense had 45 drives by my count, and scored 7 touchdowns. In 2021 alone, Josh Allen led the Bills offense to 12 touchdowns in 16 drives

 

Burrow has led NO fourth quarter touchdown drives in 7 career postseason games

 

I don't really want to hear about how "Burrow has made it to a Super Bowl and Allen hasn't"

Allen probably has 2 super bowl wins if he was the Bengals QB for the 21 and 22 playoff runs.

 

 

This.  1000 times over...this.  

Edited July 21, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

Top 10 guess in no order considering none were in 11-50: 

 

Nick Bosa, Myles Garrett, Patrick Mahomes, Travis Kelce, Micah Parsons, Aaron Donald, Trent Williams, Chris Jones, DeVantae Adams, Joe Burrow.

 

That leaves Hurts out of the top 50 behind Lamar and Herbert.  Eagles fans are going to be thrilled.

 

Maybe Donald is the odd man out after his down year, injury and age?

[Mikie2times]

Allen has higher highs. Burrow has lower lows. Both have crap offensive lines. Burrow is better in the pocket as a pure thrower. Faster to his reads and more accurate. Allen is responsible for basically everything the offense produces. Assuming Allen would just do better as Bengals is just not the case. Just as Burrow would struggle to carry the weight Josh has to carry. Josh would struggle to be as consistent and methodical as Burrow is. They’re completely different players. At this point in his maturity I think Burrow is more in the mold of a Super Bowl QB than Josh. But that can also change pretty quickly if Josh takes a few steps (which he appeared to do until the end of 2022). Understood all the reasons why that could have occurred. We will see if they play out this year or not. 

[Doc Brown]

13 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Maybe Donald is the odd man out after his down year, injury and age?

There's no way they're leaving Donald off the top 50.  He's at least top 10 and should pry be top 5.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Doc Brown

[Doc Brown]

3 hours ago, Airseven said:

Reaching a Super Bowl is a distinguishing factor in separating the upper echelon. If Hurts is ranked #9-10, I bet his Super Bowl appearance was the trump card over Allen.

Hurts won't even be in the top 50.  PFF knows what he has around him.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

9 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

There's no way they're leaving Donald off the top 50.  He's at least top 10 and should pry be top 5.

looks like you are correct. 
 

pff has Donald as the #1 DT still and Hurts is the #7 QB.

 

But they have Allen as the #2 QB but somehow have Burrow ahead of him on this list.

 

Makes a lot of sense. Lol.

 

 

[Doc Brown]

8 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

looks like you are correct. 
 

pff has Donald as the #1 DT still and Hurts is the #7 QB.

 

But they have Allen as the #2 QB but somehow have Burrow ahead of him on this list.

 

Makes a lot of sense. Lol.

 

 

I'm always correct about half the time.  My guess is the collective PFF staff overruled Monson's rankings and put Burrow ahead of Allen.  The Burrow/Allen debate for QB2 is really splitting hairs.  They're definitely in that second tier by themselves behind Mahomes.