Stadium Construction Discussion (No PSL/Seat selection posts)

[JoPoy88]

3 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

No one gives a crap about the price, everyone just wants it built as you say.  

 

But a mere few months after signing the deal and already nearly 40% over budget?

 

That couldn't possibly have been all Raccuia's fault.  

 

Fewer details than with any other stadium project at this point in time.  As Blank Stare implied, it's very odd.  

 

Remember, NY State is involved.  

 

 

SoFi was initially budgeted to cost $2.66B. It actually cost $5.5B. Extreme example, but all these things end up costing way more than the price announced when they close the deal for one.

 

If that thing in Tennessee (which is hideous, btw) ends up costing $2.1B I’ll eat my hat.

 

https://www.mecreeled.com/how-much-did-it-cost-to-build-the-sofi-stadium/#:~:text=The cost of the arena,constructed as of this writing.

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

SoFi was initially budgeted to cost $2.66B. It actually cost $5.5B. Extreme example, but all these things end up costing way more than the price announced when they close the deal for one.

 

If that thing in Tennessee (which is hideous, btw) ends up costing $2.1B I’ll eat my hat.

 

https://www.mecreeled.com/how-much-did-it-cost-to-build-the-sofi-stadium/#:~:text=The cost of the arena,constructed as of this writing.

 

Indeed, but we don't care, that only impacts Pegula.  

 

 

[JDHillFan]

8 hours ago, PBF81 said:

know this is going to get red x's and thumbs down, but just sayin'.  

Correct

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

35 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Indeed, but we don't care, that only impacts Pegula.  

 

 

If it impacts pegula, it impacts the fans in the wallet. You don't seriously think he's gonna pay that outta pocket, do you?

[PBF81]

5 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

If it impacts pegula, it impacts the fans in the wallet. You don't seriously think he's gonna pay that outta pocket, do you?

 

Not all of it, but what's he gonna do, have $25,000 PSLs for the cheap seats.  

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

10 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Anybody trying to downplay ours and talking up other people's stadiums are disrespecting the bills

Who is doing that and why is it disrespectful if someone likes one stadium over another?

6 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Because spending nearly $2 billion on a stadium without a closed roof is crazy. We’ve been told for decades that Buffalo can’t afford a dome.

Inflation.  A done is another billion ( give or take).  You throwing out a dollar amount assuming you can do more with it, do you have data to show how they could have had a dome for the same price?   Also there is significant debate in the dome thing.  Why do you have to be right because you are on one side of that fence?

[LabattBlue]

…and the virtual center for season ticket holders is yet to open. Maybe price “adjustments” and changes to renderings(not in a good way) prior to fans being “blown away”?  I can’t wait to see the posts of the first wave of people who get to visit this wallet emptying experience. 😂

 

 

The buffalo’s out in front have already been downsized…

 

https://aceflag.com/products/the-original-blue-buffalo-lawn-ornament-made-in-usa

 

 

[Lost]

43 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Who is doing that and why is it disrespectful if someone likes one stadium over another?

Inflation.  A done is another billion ( give or take).  You throwing out a dollar amount assuming you can do more with it, do you have data to show how they could have had a dome for the same price?   Also there is significant debate in the dome thing.  Why do you have to be right because you are on one side of that fence?

 

The data is the Titans are getting a dome for their projected 2.1 billion vs. the 1.9 billion we're up to now.   Maybe theirs will end up costing 3-4 billion when is said and done but I think that's what we're comparing too at this time since both teams signed deals around the same time.  

 

[Gregg]

22 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

…and the virtual center for season ticket holders is yet to open. Maybe price “adjustments” and changes to renderings(not in a good way) prior to fans being “blown away”?  I can’t wait to see the posts of the first wave of people who get to visit this wallet emptying experience. 😂

 

 

The buffalo’s out in front have already been downsized…

 

https://aceflag.com/products/the-original-blue-buffalo-lawn-ornament-made-in-usa

 

 

 

To be fair the Jets had to adjust their prices as well when MetLife was being built. I have seats in the endzone (row 3) and initially they were charging $10,000 per seat PSL fee. Sales were so disappointing at that price in those sections that the PSL fee eventually got reduced to $5,000 per seat. The Bills will have to adjust their prices to what the demand is. They want to sell those seats so they will have to work with what the market can afford. PSL's were/are a disaster in a big market like the NYC area. It will be no different in Buffalo. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Gregg

[Matt_In_NH]

5 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

The data is the Titans are getting a dome for their projected 2.1 billion vs. the 1.9 billion we're up to now.   Maybe theirs will end up costing 3-4 billion when is said and done but I think that's what we're comparing too at this time since both teams signed deals around the same time.  

 

I figured that is where you would go.....lets see what the overruns are in Tennessee too.   Also, there can be things making construciton more or less expensive in different locations/regions.  Maybe it costs less to build anything in Tennessee than in NY with all the red tape, 100% union labor, labor laws, restrictions on everything.   It would be more than 200M more to put a roof on the thing.

[Fallser]

6 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

SoFi was initially budgeted to cost $2.66B. It actually cost $5.5B. Extreme example, but all these things end up costing way more than the price announced when they close the deal for one.

 

If that thing in Tennessee (which is hideous, btw) ends up costing $2.1B I’ll eat my hat.

 

https://www.mecreeled.com/how-much-did-it-cost-to-build-the-sofi-stadium/#:~:text=The cost of the arena,constructed as of this writing.

But they'll have air conditioned football! A must have for today's cotton candy fans...

Edited August 10, 2023 by Fallser

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Who is doing that and why is it disrespectful if someone likes one stadium over another?

Inflation.  A done is another billion ( give or take).  You throwing out a dollar amount assuming you can do more with it, do you have data to show how they could have had a dome for the same price?   Also there is significant debate in the dome thing.  Why do you have to be right because you are on one side of that fence?

A dome isn’t that much more. A dome downtown yes because there’s more infrastructure money needed around the stadium.

 

A dome in OP would’ve probably been $200-$300 million more.

 

I don’t really care if the Bills played outdoors or indoors. I’m going to the games either way. I wanted a dome because players would’ve preferred it and it would attract the fans that don’t like sitting outside.

[Gregg]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

A dome isn’t that much more. A dome downtown yes because there’s more infrastructure money needed around the stadium.

 

A dome in OP would’ve probably been $200-$300 million more.

 

I don’t really care if the Bills played outdoors or indoors. I’m going to the games either way. I wanted a dome because players would’ve preferred it and it would attract the fans that don’t like sitting outside.

 

With this Bills team they aren't really built to play in the cold. They don't run the ball very well. They rely on Allen throwing it all over the place. For a team that might have to deal with poor weather especially the 2nd half of the season you would think they would be built better for the tough elements.

[Bob Jones]

12 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

I'm pretty sure that there definitely would be a noticeable difference in cost....for building the same thing....in NY vs in Tennessee. Cost of doing business in NY is higher for various/obvious reasons.

 

32 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

I figured that is where you would go.....lets see what the overruns are in Tennessee too.   Also, there can be things making construciton more or less expensive in different locations/regions.  Maybe it costs less to build anything in Tennessee than in NY with all the red tape, 100% union labor, labor laws, restrictions on everything.   It would be more than 200M more to put a roof on the thing.

Yes, good point! 😉

[Buffalo_Stampede]

12 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

With this Bills team they aren't really built to play in the cold. They don't run the ball very well. They rely on Allen throwing it all over the place. For a team that might have to deal with poor weather especially the 2nd half of the season you would think they would be built better for the tough elements.

And Allen won’t play forever. I honestly hated when we searched for a QB and had to eliminate anyone without a big arm. 

[Fallser]

That stadium is $2.1B Tennesseean dollars, in NY state, you’d have to add a billion for that monstrosity. 

[Gregg]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

And Allen won’t play forever. I honestly hated when we searched for a QB and had to eliminate anyone without a big arm. 

 

The Bills need to be more the like the Bills teams of the early 90's. Balanced on offense. Kelly threw it all over the field as well. But he had a great OL, and the Bills could run the ball down teams throats with Thurman. I love this Bills team and watching Allen make plays throwing it all over the field is fun to watch. I just wish they could run it better when needed. Especially when the weather dictates that.

[Royale with Cheese]

7 hours ago, PetermansRedemption said:

Just because they have a far nicer stadium doesn’t mean anyone is jumping to Titans fandom. You can be both a Bills fan and realize that another team is building a far more appealing stadium. 

 

Why is the design of a pizza box, PS2 or record player more appealing?

 

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

10 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Why is the design of a pizza box, PS2 or record player more appealing?

 

 

 

Better than a toilet.

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Better than a toilet.

 

It doesn't look like a toilet.  

 

If you want to say it's the same shape as a bed pan, sure.  But other stadiums are shaped like that and not just in football.

 

 

[nucci]

20 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Why is the design of a pizza box, PS2 or record player more appealing?

 

 

 

agree but the surrounding area and inside look kinda cool

[TheFunPolice]

22 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Why is the design of a pizza box, PS2 or record player more appealing?

 

 

 

 

This could be a dumb question, because I don't follow the thumbtacks. Is that Titans stadium actually trying to look like a turntable because of the music city theme?

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, nucci said:

agree but the surrounding area and inside look kinda cool

 

Ours is going to look good inside as well.  We don't need to replicate Nashville.  

[May Day 10]

I just hope they dont start skrimping on some things and cutting costs for cheaper, less durable building materials, and cheaper seats and such.  The Arena downtown is a decent example of that.  It is clearly a lot cheaper than its contemporaries and it shows in so many ways and now we are stuck with a bad arena, poorly designed, and bad sight lines.

[nucci]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Ours is going to look good inside as well.  We don't need to replicate Nashville.  

yep, I wasn't comparing

[Royale with Cheese]

13 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

This could be a dumb question, because I don't follow the thumbtacks. Is that Titans stadium actually trying to look like a turntable because of the music city theme?

 

That's actually a pretty good observation.  Very well could be!

[May Day 10]

And to join the "theirs looks cooler" fray.  Yeah, Nashville looks great for that city.  It has emerged as a Vegas of the East.  Destination.  It has all sorts of decks people can stand on and socialize, look out on the activity in the city, etc.  It looks perfect for Nashville.  Good for them and their city.

 

Buffalo's stadium was designed to fit Buffalo and our fans.  We are football-focused.  The emphasis seems to be in the seats and on the field.  We cant have an open end or many 'character' type of elements that New England or Seattle have for example as the wind is/can be just too severe.  With being enclosed, we are pretty much getting as close to an indoor stadium as possible without going indoor.  Say what you want about indoor vs outdoor (I personally think indoor venues lack character, especially considering we would likely get/afford a cookie-cutter one like Detroit.  Every game seems miscellaneous and the same.  Here, the weather, temp, etc is part of the story and adds a dimension.  In Detroit, SNF looks like a 1PM game.  In our current stadium, Primetime games look special).  

I think the enclosed stadium and design will make the interior extremely noisy and it should bring most/all NFL stadiums to shame.  The only reason we arent the loudest is all the open space Highmark has (and KC's is basically enclosed).

 

I am also a little puzzled as why we have only gotten a small handful of very simplistic renderings with little detail.  Will they come out with a bunch more once PSLs become available to try to maximize the hype to reduce sticker shock?

[TheFunPolice]

I think the Bills new stadium is perfect for WNY. 

 

Football belongs outdoors. 

[jwhit34]

The projected cost overruns are likely the result of the subcontractors' bids coming in higher than expected. It's not necessarily because the work to date has been more expensive. My guess is that since Ron Raccuia was overseeing the project, he was responsible for final signoff on the budget that was used to get funding. Connecting the dots between this and Raccuia's exit, it would be easy to surmise that this played a big role in his exit. 

 

This process started 18-24 months ago and we all know that we have just gone through the worst inflationary period in the past 40 years. If I'm Raccuia 12 months ago I am letting everyone know that the bids are going to come in higher because of that - maybe that wasn't done. Also companies in the building trades have been extremely busy since late 2020, so contractors have jacked up their prices because they have plenty of work - simple supply and demand. 

 

I think some people may be thinking "they just started how can they be over budget by that much?" It is not for the work done but for the work contracted for in the future. None of us know what percentage of the work has been contracted for already, so who knows how much more it will change. 

 

This is how it goes, we recently did an addition on our house and redid some outdoor living space and despite a firm contracted price, with some changes that could not be anticipated until doing the work the price escalated by about 11%. 

 

11% increase on the stadium amounts to a little over $150 million, so projecting out 3 years $300 million isn't a real shocker. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

37 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

I think the Bills new stadium is perfect for WNY. 

 

Football belongs outdoors. 

I absolutely hate that talk. What does that even mean? WNY has the worst weather in the NFL. How can an open roof stadium be perfect for WNY. It makes no sense.

 

We’re not even a historically tough football team like Pittsburgh or Green Bay. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

It doesn't look like a toilet.  

 

If you want to say it's the same shape as a bed pan, sure.  But other stadiums are shaped like that and not just in football.

 

 

I like those style stadiums, just not in Buffalo. It’s better than completely open for sure. It’s going to be a great stadium, no doubts about it. I just think we’ll wish we had a dome. This is a 50 year stadium. It’s probably the only stadium I’ll ever see built.

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I absolutely hate that talk. What does that even mean? WNY has the worst weather in the NFL. How can an open roof stadium be perfect for WNY. It makes no sense.

 

We’re not even a historically tough football team like Pittsburgh or Green Bay. 
 

 

I like those style stadiums, just not in Buffalo. It’s better than completely open for sure. It’s going to be a great stadium, no doubts about it. I just think we’ll wish we had a dome. This is a 50 year stadium. It’s probably the only stadium I’ll ever see built.

 

I used to be all about a dome too.  Then I went to the Detroit Brown's game last year.  It's definitely a more comfortable environment...you're sitting inside at 72 degrees with no wind.  I just didn't feel the intensity like I do in outdoor stadiums. 

I've watched the Bills in a dome about 4 times now and it's less energy IMO....you get too comfortable.  I really took notice of it last year.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I used to be all about a dome too.  Then I went to the Detroit Brown's game last year.  It's definitely a more comfortable environment...you're sitting inside at 72 degrees with no wind.  I just didn't feel the intensity like I do in outdoor stadiums. 

I've watched the Bills in a dome about 4 times now and it's less energy IMO....you get too comfortable.  I really took notice of it last year.

Buffalo would be a lot like New Orleans but crazier. It would be the loudest stadium in the world.

[PBF81]

3 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

…and the virtual center for season ticket holders is yet to open. Maybe price “adjustments” and changes to renderings(not in a good way) prior to fans being “blown away”?  I can’t wait to see the posts of the first wave of people who get to visit this wallet emptying experience. 😂

 

 

The buffalo’s out in front have already been downsized…

 

https://aceflag.com/products/the-original-blue-buffalo-lawn-ornament-made-in-usa

 

 

 

LOL 

 

Shades of Stonehenge in Spinal Tap.  

 

 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Gregg said:

 

The Bills need to be more the like the Bills teams of the early 90's. Balanced on offense. Kelly threw it all over the field as well. But he had a great OL, and the Bills could run the ball down teams throats with Thurman. I love this Bills team and watching Allen make plays throwing it all over the field is fun to watch. I just wish they could run it better when needed. Especially when the weather dictates that.

 

Well, that then leads into a discussion about the OL and why more hasn't been done to create an OL like we had back then.  I'm not sure now is the time to discuss that, ... again, for the umpteenth time.  LOL  

 

The season is upon us.  If the "new and improved" (?) OL antes up, great.  But if not, I firmly believe that fan and media pressure are going to start bearing down significantly on McBeane.  

 

We'll see, but what, 32 days away from the season opener, it's time to be positive and hope for the best all the way around.  There will be plenty of time for discussion of that nature upon the conclusion of the season.  

 

GO BILLS!!! 

 

 

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Why is the design of a pizza box, PS2 or record player more appealing?

 

 

 

 

What's the huge arm do, arbitrarily sprinkle snow/rain throughout the stadium at random times?   

 

 

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

It doesn't look like a toilet.  

 

If you want to say it's the same shape as a bed pan, sure.  But other stadiums are shaped like that and not just in football.

 

 

 

We can call it the Commodium.  

 

  

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

What's the huge arm do, arbitrarily sprinkle snow/rain throughout the stadium at random times?   

We can call it the Commodium.  

 

  

 

We should build one and just have it windshield wiper over the visiting sidelines spraying yellow snow.  If Miami gives us the yellow sun, we will give them yellow urine.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, jwhit34 said:

The projected cost overruns are likely the result of the subcontractors' bids coming in higher than expected. It's not necessarily because the work to date has been more expensive. My guess is that since Ron Raccuia was overseeing the project, he was responsible for final signoff on the budget that was used to get funding. Connecting the dots between this and Raccuia's exit, it would be easy to surmise that this played a big role in his exit. 

 

This process started 18-24 months ago and we all know that we have just gone through the worst inflationary period in the past 40 years. If I'm Raccuia 12 months ago I am letting everyone know that the bids are going to come in higher because of that - maybe that wasn't done. Also companies in the building trades have been extremely busy since late 2020, so contractors have jacked up their prices because they have plenty of work - simple supply and demand. 

 

I think some people may be thinking "they just started how can they be over budget by that much?" It is not for the work done but for the work contracted for in the future. None of us know what percentage of the work has been contracted for already, so who knows how much more it will change. 

 

This is how it goes, we recently did an addition on our house and redid some outdoor living space and despite a firm contracted price, with some changes that could not be anticipated until doing the work the price escalated by about 11%. 

 

11% increase on the stadium amounts to a little over $150 million, so projecting out 3 years $300 million isn't a real shocker. 

 

Some good points there.  Keep in mind however, perhaps Pegula also told Raccuia to make sure that it came in under a certain budgeted figure that he was willing to dish out.  Clearly the money's a concern for Pegula.  

 

 

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We should build one and just have it windshield wiper over the visiting sidelines spraying yellow snow.  If Miami gives us the yellow sun, we will give them yellow urine.

 

A shitspreader.  LOL 

 

 

[Shaw66]

14 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

 

 

If psl prices quadruple, will Bills fans be able to afford ?

That is exactly the problem. You can be sure the Bills' financial experts have been studying the market very carefully to figure out how far they go on ticket prices and PSLs. They can't afford to outprice the market.  

 

They'll be forced to eat some of it.  

[wppete]

9 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Because spending nearly $2 billion on a stadium without a closed roof is crazy. We’ve been told for decades that Buffalo can’t afford a dome.

Who cares how much they pay? Just build it and we will come. Lets them figure out how it’s payed for. The state dishes out a lot more money to nonesense then a stadium and the Pegulas will be on the hook for a lot of it. I’m sure the Pegula can afford it. 

[PBF81]

14 minutes ago, wppete said:

Who cares how much they pay? Just build it and we will come. Lets them figure out how it’s payed for. The state dishes out a lot more money to nonesense then a stadium and the Pegulas will be on the hook for a lot of it. I’m sure the Pegula can afford it. 

 

Indeed, agree, and he can afford it.  My concern is that he doesn't want to afford it.  LOL   He wants others to pick up the tab.  Remember, Kim said that they couldn't afford it, that they had a lifestyle to maintain.  I don't see why that's changed.  Between that and the Raccuia thing and the focus on "the business side" of it all, it makes me antsy.  Then factor in NYS's involvement, etc.  

 

As of now he's on the hook for very little.  I'd like to see some serious cement in place soon.  

 

 

[brianthomas]

Just think, with the news of the cost overruns, in hindsight we very well could've afforded a dome, had we just simply managed the costs more efficiently elsewhere with the project? Thats what im taking away from the AP article thats got everyone fired up.

This cost excuse was likely never the reason why we didnt decide on a dome, its Pegula's belief we should be outdoors, simple as that. Everything else seems just a supporting rationalization for Pegula's wishes. Whether one believes them or not, its up for debate i guess. Football "purists" aside, in a troubled economy where the slices of pie to go around are fewer & fewer, it doesnt make financial sense to spend $2B on a building used 12 times a year. It just doesnt & no amount of attempts to rationalize this will ever succeed, because at its core its simply irrational. But hey, now that im likely priced out of going to the games, maybe i can watch the games on TV hopefully going forward, so i guess i shouldnt complain? The BILLS are staying here for years to come.

Whole thing literally makes me facepalm whenever i think of it. Guess i shouldnt haha.