In light of Beane’s weak drafting maybe he should move up in the early rounds.

[Beast]

1 hour ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

You don't need 2 1st round corners for a zone defense. Over-prioritized.

 

A lot of good it did us against Cincinnati.

 

I wonder what Josh Allen could do with WRs like that?

 

Na, let's have 2 of 3 starting WRs be dudes who can't catch while we burn 2nds and 3rds on defensive backups.

Be honest, did you or anyone else have an issue with Gabe Davis being our 2nd WR at this time last season?

 

Please show me a post from last off-season where you were saying WR was a weakness.

 

Last off-season the Bills were looked upon as a big favorite to win the SB for a reason.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Beast

[PBF81]

3 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

And people actually wanted another corner in the 2nd last year after taking one in the 1st.

 

Most people tend to look at the draft in a vacuum, as a bunch of individual players/positions, not as a unit in a big picture mentality.  This leads to the thinking that if "oh, if we could only get [this] player who would put up huge stats we'd be great." 

 

But it's much more of a zero-sum game and if you're going to build a great TEAM, then a big-picture approach is necessary.  ... despite Beane not even hitting on most of his picks for where they were taken.  (i.e.  Oliver's good, but hardly 9th overall good)  So far we haven't seen that under McBeane.  

 

One simple example is that for every defensive player you draft, you can't draft an offensive one.  Common sense but seemingly overlooked by McBeane.  And again, a mere one example in a list that runs on.  But it seems that Beane lacks simple understanding of the Draft in that way.  Without having landed Allen, McD likely wouldn't have been extended and Beane likely wouldn't be here anymore, and we'd be talking about "The last 25 Years." 

 

The reason why we're as good as we are, after Allen, and we're no better than what we were over "The last 20 Years" without him, had more to do with free agents, not or draftees.  

 

You're much better off with a team full of above-average players at all positions and no superstars, than you are with two or three superstars and a bunch of mediocre and fair players otherwise. 

[Beast]

29 minutes ago, wppete said:

I think if Beane screws this draft also he should be fired. 

Like I said minutes ago, we go from being the envy of the league 6 months ago to wanting our GM fired.

 

I get the disappointment. All of us are disappointed in the way our season progressed and ended but get the hell over it and look at the big picture. This team still has a lot of talent.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

14 minutes ago, Beast said:

Be honest, did you or anyone else have an issue with Gabe Davis being our 2nd WR at this time last season?

 

Please show me a post from last off-season where you were saying WR was a weakness.

 

Last off-season the Bills were looked upon as a big favorite to win the SB for a reason.

I've been pounding the table for a 1st round, or early-round WR every year for a long time.

 

I didn't want Davis to be the only option. It was very much up in the air whether he could be the prolific full-time starter we needed him to be. Last year my attitude was 'yes we have Davis who has a chance to be good but don't get caught with your pants down at such an important spot.' Also if Davis works out and so does the new draft pick, great, now you have three of em!

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, Beast said:

Like I said minutes ago, we go from being the envy of the league 6 months ago to wanting our GM fired.

 

I get the disappointment. All of us are disappointed in the way our season progressed and ended but get the hell over it and look at the big picture. This team still has a lot of talent.

 

Josh and the offense were bipolar all season.  For my money it stemmed from the Daboll to Dorsey change.

I'm not saying Daboll was elite as OC but the team on O had a scheme and a way to set up Ds.

 

Dorsey did a lot of good things but couldn't put good "specific" game plans together to take advantage of the oppositions D's

weaknesses as well as Daboll.  Us fans will just have to hope that Dorsey improves at his job.  You can't change the OC again IMO.

Next year will tell if Ken is the guy or not.

 

Beane has to improve the OL and with some innovative offensive play calling all will be better.

 

The continuous injuries on D were a challenge.  Some important UFAs will walk this year and Beane will have to plug that the best he can.

[Beast]

Just now, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

I've been pounding the table for a 1st round, or early-round WR every year for a long time.

 

I didn't want Davis to be the only option. It was very much up in the air whether he could be the prolific full-time starter we needed him to be. Last year my attitude was 'yes we have Davis who has a chance to be good but don't get caught with your pants down at such an important spot.' Also if Davis works out and so does the new draft pick, great, now you have three of em!

For a long time?

 

They did use a 1st to get Diggs. That counts in my book and pretty much everyone else’s.

 

Please, again, the Bills were a legit favorite to win the SB 6 months ago. If you can point me to a post of yours that said WR was a weakness last off-season I’ll be quiet and tip my hat to you.

 

You know what was a weakness? CB was. Our #1 was recovering from and ACL and our 2 guy was signed by the Steelers in free agency. Taking Elam where they did made perfect sense and the kid, IMO, showed well.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

6 minutes ago, Beast said:

For a long time?

 

They did use a 1st to get Diggs. That counts in my book and pretty much everyone else’s.

 

Please, again, the Bills were a legit favorite to win the SB 6 months ago. If you can point me to a post of yours that said WR was a weakness last off-season I’ll be quiet and tip my hat to you.

 

You know what was a weakness? CB was. Our #1 was recovering from and ACL and our 2 guy was signed by the Steelers in free agency. Taking Elam where they did made perfect sense and the kid, IMO, showed well.

Diggs is one guy. You start 3 WRs. Yes, I've wanted a 1st round WR every year for a long time. Do whatever the h*** you want with your hat.

[finn]

22 minutes ago, Beast said:

Be honest, did you or anyone else have an issue with Gabe Davis being our 2nd WR at this time last season?

 

Please show me a post from last off-season where you were saying WR was a weakness.

 

Last off-season the Bills were looked upon as a big favorite to win the SB for a reason.

I wouldn't let Beane off the hook that easily. Yes, Davis looked ready to step into the #2 role, but Beane didn't have a backup plan in case he wasn't ready, just like he had no backup plan if Saffold and/or Brown failed. As it happens, all three did. The GM doesn't get a pass because his judgment matched the consensus on a fan forum. He's got to do his homework. He didn't. Not on those three, or Araiza, or Bernard, whom he obviously overvalued. 

 

I'm not expecting perfection. But I'm not impressed by Beane's recent performance. 

[Beast]

7 minutes ago, finn said:

I wouldn't let Beane off the hook that easily. Yes, Davis looked ready to step into the #2 role, but Beane didn't have a backup plan in case he wasn't ready, just like he had no backup plan if Saffold and/or Brown failed. As it happens, all three did. The GM doesn't get a pass because his judgment matched the consensus on a fan forum. He's got to do his homework. He didn't. Not on those three, or Araiza, or Bernard, whom he obviously overvalued. 

 

I'm not expecting perfection. But I'm not impressed by Beane's recent performance. 

The Bills were being praised early on as having the best depth in the NFL.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

So Tre White will miss a few months...panic? Mortgage the future and make a poor decision for your roster? You ignore huge needs on offense because you have a short-term injury? Now Tre White is back and we have a waste of resources and poor talent around Josh Allen.

 

Really WR should have been addressed prior to that draft though, I'll give you that. But Kaiir Elam was a luxury pick on a roster that wasn't as good as they thought it was.

 

 

No he was a forced pick on a roster that had taken its 3 stars in defensive backfield for granted. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

But Kaiir Elam was a luxury pick on a roster that wasn't as good as they thought it was.

 

Based on the behind-the-scenes footage the team released and the looks on the faces of Beane & Gray when KC moved up and drafted McDuffie, I think Elam was a panic pick after KC took their guy.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

28 minutes ago, Beast said:

For a long time?

 

They did use a 1st to get Diggs. That counts in my book and pretty much everyone else’s.

 

Please, again, the Bills were a legit favorite to win the SB 6 months ago. If you can point me to a post of yours that said WR was a weakness last off-season I’ll be quiet and tip my hat to you.

 

You know what was a weakness? CB was. Our #1 was recovering from and ACL and our 2 guy was signed by the Steelers in free agency. Taking Elam where they did made perfect sense and the kid, IMO, showed well.

Quote

The Bills themselves only have one WR anywhere approaching the ballpark of elite, PLUS a lack of depth. Maybe work on that deficiency so you don't become the Packers wasting Aaron Rodgers 'cause you stubbornly left his weapons locker light.

 

Time to be quiet then, if your word means the bandwidth it's written on. Eat your hat out, Beasty!

Edited February 19, 2023 by 2020 Our Year For Sure

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Based on the behind-the-scenes footage the team released and the looks on the faces of Beane & Gray when KC moved up and drafted McDuffie, I think Elam was a panic pick after KC took their guy.

 

This is not what happened. The Bills were never drafting McDuffie. You can take that to the bank.

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

 

Time to be quiet then, if your word means the bandwidth it's written on. Eat your hat out, Beasty!

 

I also said multiple times last offseason that receiver was a weakness so on that we are in agreement. But what you are doing is obssessing over 1 pick - Elam in your case because he is literally the only corner Beane has ever taken in the first two days of the draft in 5 years and 15 picks - a bit like the people in Green Bay who obssess over the Jordan Love pick as being the reason Rodgers had no receivers (when in fact Green Bay's issue WAS multiple day 1&2 picks used on defensive backs to no avail). 

 

The Bills overinvestment for limited return has been on the defensive line. Pure and simple. 

[Virgil]

The logic of this thread is hysterical 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I also said multiple times last offseason that receiver was a weakness so on that we are in agreement. But what you are doing is obssessing over 1 pick - Elam in your case because he is literally the only corner Beane has ever taken in the first two days of the draft in 5 years and 15 picks - a bit like the people in Green Bay who obssess over the Jordan Love pick as being the reason Rodgers had no receivers (when in fact Green Bay's issue WAS multiple day 1&2 picks used on defensive backs to no avail). 

 

The Bills overinvestment for limited return has been on the defensive line. Pure and simple. 

I agree Elam was not the only misstep. I'm talking about it because the criticism still gets pushback, at this point nobody is deluding themselves into thinking Epenesa and Basham were great picks so there's no discussion. Your attempt to shame me into not disagreeing with you with a word like "obsession" is a real gas.

 

The Elam pick was poor team-building strategy, and it did represent over-investment for a limited return. A premium asset and we're getting very little out of it, both short- and long-term. The Bills system de-emphasizes cornerbacks.

[Lofton80]

Well, I think Beane is one of the best GM's in the game. A healthy Von Miller likely changes the narrative of these comments. Beane took over one of the worst cap space messes imaginable and created a roster that is pretty impressive most weeks. I am more disappointed in the coaching than Brandon Beane. He does his job. 

[somnus00]

Maybe he can move up to 9, and draft an undersized DT.

 

Seriously, though. It's about scouting. Scouting of prospects, and scouting of self (team). Not about where you draft so much. Mixing in a little luck wouldn't hurt.

Edited February 19, 2023 by somnus00

[RiotAct]

7 hours ago, BillsFan692 said:

I think we should keep signing and drafting locker room guys.

lunch pail fellas!!!

[Einstein]

26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is not what happened. The Bills were never drafting McDuffie. You can take that to the bank.

 

I know that’s been your opinion based on scheme but the footage tells a different story.

 

KC’s general manager also alluded to him thinking that Beane wanted McDuffie.

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Multiple elite defenses that included Tre White. That is the difference. They under valued corner for years and when White went down it forced them into a position where they had to draft a corner early.

But they really didn't have to @GunnerBill. They could've waited and selected Tariq Woolen. This goes back to the scouting. Woolen had all the measurables of Elam. The only real difference was the level of competition they played against. 

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, Beast said:

Be honest, did you or anyone else have an issue with Gabe Davis being our 2nd WR at this time last season?

 

Please show me a post from last off-season where you were saying WR was a weakness.

 

Last off-season the Bills were looked upon as a big favorite to win the SB for a reason.

I remember when Beane/McDermott first arrived they spoke about competition at every position. Iron sharpening iron. Davis didn't have that this season. 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, finn said:

I wouldn't let Beane off the hook that easily.  Yes, Davis looked ready to step into the #2 role, but Beane didn't have a backup plan in case he wasn't ready, just like he had no backup plan if Saffold and/or Brown failed.  As it happens, all three did.  The GM doesn't get a pass because his judgment matched the consensus on a fan forum.  He's got to do his homework.  He didn't.  Not on those three, or Araiza, or Bernard, whom he obviously overvalued. 

 

I'm not expecting perfection. But I'm not impressed by Beane's recent performance. 

 

Here's the thing, and let's start with the premise of this thread, ... 

 

Quote

In light of Beane’s weak drafting maybe he should move up in the early rounds

 

... that sounds wonderful, and we have the 27th, so what, trade up for the 20th?  But then couldn't the same thing be said, and move up to the 12th?  Then couldn't the same thing be said and move up to the 5th?  ... then to the 1st overall at exorbitant expense?  Sure it could.  All that tells me is that Beane needs to be in a position to make a "no-brainer" pick to "succeed."  But he's getting paid to think and do much more, finding value at lower picks, not merely pluck the fruit that everyone's eyes are on.  

 

But the two highest draft picks we've had besides Allen, and one involved in a significant trade-up as such, were the 9th (Oliver) and 16th (Edmunds), neither of which we got the draft-spot value for.  Trading up only makes sense, in fact any draft pick is optimized, only when the appropriate value or better is obtained from that particular draft spot.  Beane has hardly shown, much less proven a propensity for being able to do that.  

 

Same for trading away picks for proven players, like when we made that trade of our 1st (et al) for Diggs, everyone said it was the same thing.  But was it, is it?  

 

For Diggs we paid an average of $24M/season out of the gate.  Mid-1st-Round picks get an average of $4-5M/season.  So it's clearly not the same.  

 

Going the free-agent route always costs more, which makes sense.  But this is what GMs get paid to do, and to be able to avoid cap issues.  

 

Beane got some lattitude for "inheriting a cap mess," which was overstated.  Yes, it wasn't good but it was also hardly the nightmare that many made it out to be.  Either way he's had five years now to straighten that out, which is three years more than necessary and to install his own program, which under good management would not see a rehash of the same thing.  But we do have the same thing, yet worse.  

 

This is largely because of Beane's overreliance upon free agency, ... because his Drafts haven't been good enough to offset the need for going to free-agency.  We're not getting nearly enough impact from our "cheap labor" draft picks.  Most of Beane's biggest free agents also haven't produced to standards in that way.  Lotulolei was an enormous waste of money and he provided very little for that money.  That's on Beane.  

 

Vernon Butler and Mario Addison were brought on, not crazy expensive, but also not cheaply, but neither really added much that JAG could have for much less.  They were among our highest paid players those seasons.  That's on Beane.  

 

Trent Murphy and John Brown were also among our highest paid players and same there, we didn't get much out of them that a much less expensive JAG could have gotten.  That's on Beane.  

 

Quinton Jefferson and Ty Nsecke while not crazy expensive were among our most expensive OL-men.  Did they perform to that standard?  Hardly.  That's on Beane.  

 

Von Miller was an enormous risk, high-risk high-reward kinda thing.  Well, we've reaped the high-risk side of that relegating that decision to similar to the above.  At 34 next year and recovering from an injury that typically takes a good year for a younger healthier person to recover from, is hardly an odds-on proposition going forward.  That's also on Beane.  He swung for the fences, great!  But he also missed, and that shouldn't be overlooked either.  And let's not overlook the reason for having had to take such a risk, it was because his drafts have come up empty as such despite putting an enormous amount of draft resources into our DL/F7.  

 

Our best players with only the exceptions of Allen, Dawkins (not Beane), and Milano (not Beane) were not drafted.  That's on Beane.  In short he has one good draft pick, Allen, who's carrying both his and McD's water.  We'd be more of the same of "The Last 20 Years" if not worse without Allen.  

 

OK, so here we are today, arguably with a worse cap mess than Beane inherited.  So why is there any discussion that he's done a great job?  

 

A "great job" as a GM is A, not allowing yourself to get to this point, B, drafting well so that you don't have to overcome your poor drafts with far more expensive free agents, and C., doing this so as to stock an entire team, not merely a flashy position or two or three.  

 

Being able to spot talent, and more particularly, hopefully find talent available when your pick is up that should have gone higher.  Beane does the opposite.  He makes risky picks and generally gets value of notably lower rounds from those picks, if those players even see the field at all.  

 

You've seen the posts here about how many of our draft picks are starting, but that's not a good thing, because we typically don't have above-average play at most positions.  So yeah, they're starting, typically our Day 3 picks, but that's only because Beane's priciest free agents and Day 1 & 2 draft picks haven't worked out to the level of their picks or the free-agent prices of their contracts, ... per above.  

 

So now we've come full circle, we've got another cap situation, but this one is entirely of Beane's own making.  So why is anyone defending him?  I don't get it.  He's had five seasons now to get us out of the [nominal] cap situation we were in and do his thing, and prevent us from repeating that.  Not only has he failed, but apart from Allen, it's actually worse than it was.  

 

And let's be honest if we can here, the only reason why we're not discussing "The Last 25 Years" right now, is entirely because Allen's on our team and for no other reason.  We wouldn't have won a single division title without him much less challenged for anything in the playoffs.  This team would be below-average without Allen.  No need to get into McD's contributions to this current situation, but he's hardly free of responsibility in the matter either.  

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by PBF81

[finn]

1 hour ago, Beast said:

The Bills were being praised early on as having the best depth in the NFL.

My reply is the same. GM's should be judged on outcomes, not on how well their choices reflected popular opinion at the time. Most people thought Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell were great picks when they were drafted. The GMs who took them blew it. They don't get a pass because they went with the consensus. 

 

As it turns out, the Bills depth sucked: OT, OG, C, LB, CB, S, WR... pretty much everywhere it was tested. You think that's ok because in August ESPN though they had the best depth in the NFL? 

[BillsFan692]

1 hour ago, Lofton80 said:

Well, I think Beane is one of the best GM's in the game. A healthy Von Miller likely changes the narrative of these comments. Beane took over one of the worst cap space messes imaginable and created a roster that is pretty impressive most weeks. I am more disappointed in the coaching than Brandon Beane. He does his job. 

Yah but doesnt it feel like now it was all not quite good enough? We didnt win and now we are in an even worse cap situation than we started with and our roster is getting worse not better since we are so up against the cap.

 

I dont know. What you said makes sense if we had won or even appeared in the SB but its been 5 years and we havent sniffed too close lately and this year we were easily handled.

 

Its not good!!!

[Bill from NYC]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No. Beane didn't draft White. Beane drafted Taron in the 4th and Kaiir in the 1st. His other defensive bacm picks are day 3. 

 

Of course not. McDermott did and was probably responsible for trading up for Elam. 

 

It is not unusual for a head coach to have more power than a GM. I can't prove it but imo McDermott has far more power than Beane and some of it needs to be stripped away.

 

Again, jmo.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Bill from NYC

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Here's the thing, and let's start with the premise of this thread, ... 

 

 

... that sounds wonderful, and we have the 27th, so what, trade up for the 20th?  But then couldn't the same thing be said, and move up to the 12th?  Then couldn't the same thing be said and move up to the 5th?  ... then to the 1st overall at exorbitant expense?  Sure it could.  All that tells me is that Beane needs to be in a position to make a "no-brainer" pick to "succeed."  But he's getting paid to think and do much more, finding value at lower picks, not merely pluck the fruit that everyone's eyes are on.  

 

But the two highest draft picks we've had besides Allen, and one involved in a significant trade-up as such, were the 9th (Oliver) and 16th (Edmunds), neither of which we got the draft-spot value for.  Trading up only makes sense, in fact any draft pick is optimized, only when the appropriate value or better is obtained from that particular draft spot.  Beane has hardly shown, much less proven a propensity for being able to do that.  

 

Same for trading away picks for proven players, like when we made that trade of our 1st (et al) for Diggs, everyone said it was the same thing.  But was it, is it?  

 

For Diggs we paid an average of $24M/season out of the gate.  Mid-1st-Round picks get an average of $4-5M/season.  So it's clearly not the same.  

 

Going the free-agent route always costs more, which makes sense.  But this is what GMs get paid to do, and to be able to avoid cap issues.  

 

Beane got some lattitude for "inheriting a cap mess," which was overstated.  Yes, it wasn't good but it was also hardly the nightmare that many made it out to be.  Either way he's had five years now to straighten that out, which is three years more than necessary and to install his own program, which under good management would not see a rehash of the same thing.  But we do have the same thing, yet worse.  

 

This is largely because of Beane's overreliance upon free agency, ... because his Drafts haven't been good enough to offset the need for going to free-agency.  We're not getting nearly enough impact from our "cheap labor" draft picks.  Most of Beane's biggest free agents also haven't produced to standards in that way.  Lotulolei was an enormous waste of money and he provided very little for that money.  That's on Beane.  

 

Vernon Butler and Mario Addison were brought on, not crazy expensive, but also not cheaply, but neither really added much that JAG could have for much less.  They were among our highest paid players those seasons.  That's on Beane.  

 

Trent Murphy and John Brown were also among our highest paid players and same there, we didn't get much out of them that a much less expensive JAG could have gotten.  That's on Beane.  

 

Quinton Jefferson and Ty Nsecke while not crazy expensive were among our most expensive OL-men.  Did they perform to that standard?  Hardly.  That's on Beane.  

 

Von Miller was an enormous risk, high-risk high-reward kinda thing.  Well, we've reaped the high-risk side of that relegating that decision to similar to the above.  At 34 next year and recovering from an injury that typically takes a good year for a younger healthier person to recover from, is hardly an odds-on proposition going forward.  That's also on Beane.  He swung for the fences, great!  But he also missed, and that shouldn't be overlooked either.  And let's not overlook the reason for having had to take such a risk, it was because his drafts have come up empty as such despite putting an enormous amount of draft resources into our DL/F7.  

 

Our best players with only the exceptions of Allen, Dawkins (not Beane), and Milano (not Beane) were not drafted.  That's on Beane.  In short he has one good draft pick, Allen, who's carrying both his and McD's water.  We'd be more of the same of "The Last 20 Years" if not worse without Allen.  

 

OK, so here we are today, arguably with a worse cap mess than Beane inherited.  So why is there any discussion that he's done a great job?  

 

A "great job" as a GM is A, not allowing yourself to get to this point, B, drafting well so that you don't have to overcome your poor drafts with far more expensive free agents, and C., doing this so as to stock an entire team, not merely a flashy position or two or three.  

 

Being able to spot talent, and more particularly, hopefully find talent available when your pick is up that should have gone higher.  Beane does the opposite.  He makes risky picks and generally gets value of notably lower rounds from those picks, if those players even see the field at all.  

 

You've seen the posts here about how many of our draft picks are starting, but that's not a good thing, because we typically don't have above-average play at most positions.  So yeah, they're starting, typically our Day 3 picks, but that's only because Beane's priciest free agents and Day 1 & 2 draft picks haven't worked out to the level of their picks or the free-agent prices of their contracts, ... per above.  

 

So now we've come full circle, we've got another cap situation, but this one is entirely of Beane's own making.  So why is anyone defending him?  I don't get it.  He's had five seasons now to get us out of the [nominal] cap situation we were in and do his thing, and prevent us from repeating that.  Not only has he failed, but apart from Allen, it's actually worse than it was.  

 

And let's be honest if we can here, the only reason why we're not discussing "The Last 25 Years" right now, is entirely because Allen's on our team and for no other reason.  We wouldn't have won a single division title without him much less challenged for anything in the playoffs.  This team would be below-average without Allen.  No need to get into McD's contributions to this current situation, but he's hardly free of responsibility in the matter either.  

 

 

 

I read the whole post. Throughly enjoyed the in-depth analysis and opinions. 

 

I couldn't agree more with what you said and how you said it.

 

Of course, we have to give Beane and McD credit for turning around a losing organization to a winning one.

 

Six straight playoff appearances is definetly no small accomplishment.

 

Clearly, the Allen pick is the major reason for the success. That pick was by no means a safe one. No doubt it was more than the right one. Beane hit the grand slam and arguably has earned less criticism because of it. 

 

You elegantly lay out the many Beane errors and the state of the team because of it.

 

As a neutral fan, it appears the Bills are on a descending path while many teams are trending in the opposite direction. 

 

So many things have to go right for the Bills to maintain their playoff and divisional edge. Health, player development, draft and free agency, and coaching. It seems unlikely that everything will fall in place. The Bills organization are in this position because of Beane and McD. There is little to argue about that. 

 

Do you view the regime's six years as a success? Hard to say it hasn't been successful. It depends on how you see things and what's the end goal. Clearly, no Super Bowl appearance or ring is disappointing. I think that is a realistic goal once you land your franchise QB. 

 

As a biased Bills fan, the last six years of football has largely been a joy to watch. The playoff run has been a lot of fun. The KC game, win vs Colts, pick 6 vs Balt, beat down vs NE to name a few. Of course, it comes with some major disappointment too. Most notably the last two years of playoff failure.

 

I'm seriously starting to doubt this current coaching staff and regime can get it done. The path is becoming much more difficult because of the Beane and McD failures. 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by newcam2012

[Meatloaf63]

10 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

This may increase his percentage of success in finding better talent, hopefully it takes more risk out of his selections. The only thing left for acquiring better talent this year seems to be the draft. Right now finding quality of player is the biggest challenge facing McBeane during their tenure imo.

I agree, I would reach into next years draft to get people who can help us now. We need some difference makers, once that won’t cost us for a few years. Time to think out of the box. We don’t need 5th and 6th round talent. We need 1st and low second round now. 

[PBF81]

26 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

I agree, I would reach into next years draft to get people who can help us now. We need some difference makers, once that won’t cost us for a few years. Time to think out of the box. We don’t need 5th and 6th round talent. We need 1st and low second round now. 

 

I would argue that this isn't exactly "thinking out of the box," it's what good GMs regularly do.

[JohnNord]

10 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

This may increase his percentage of success in finding better talent, hopefully it takes more risk out of his selections. The only thing left for acquiring better talent this year seems to be the draft. Right now finding quality of player is the biggest challenge facing McBeane during their tenure imo.

No… based on his track record they should trade down.  The Bills have had better success in later round than in early ones 

[Meatloaf63]

7 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I would argue that this isn't exactly "thinking out of the box," it's what good GMs regularly do.

Seems to be out of the Box for Beane though. We don’t need lots of useless picks, we need a few quality picks that actually add something, difference makers, not just take up space.

[ColoradoBills]

2 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

No… based on his track record they should trade down.  The Bills have had better success in later round than in early ones 

 

I'm usually the guy that is not for trading up or down BUT this year if a top OL or WR is not at 27 then trade down some if you can.

[Chaos]

8 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

No… based on his track record they should trade down.  The Bills have had better success in later round than in early ones 

Josh Allen says hello. 

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

Whoever they draft, the GM and Coach will say that’s the guy they targeted.

[JohnNord]

23 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Josh Allen says hello. 

So do the drafts from 2019-2022

[PBF81]

48 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Seems to be out of the Box for Beane though. We don’t need lots of useless picks, we need a few quality picks that actually add something, difference makers, not just take up space.

 

Well, exactly, so why does he have so much support then.  I realize it's a rhetorical question, but a serious question nonetheless.  

 

[ProcessTruster]

for a 55-21 team, this board certainly is an angry mob isn't it?  must be the mid February blues.  

[Big Blitz]

Production.  Draft guys that can produce.  
 

I know we don’t exclusively go by it, but I don’t want to hear about projects like Spencer Brown and RAS scores that will take years to develop. 
 

In later rounds target guys that were studs at small school like Benford.  

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I read the whole post. Throughly enjoyed the in-depth analysis and opinions. 

 

I couldn't agree more with what you said and how you said it.

 

Of course, we have to give Beane and McD credit for turning around a losing organization to a winning one.

 

Six straight playoff appearances is definetly no small accomplishment.

 

Clearly, the Allen pick is the major reason for the success. That pick was by no means a safe one. No doubt it was more than the right one. Beane hit the grand slam and arguably has earned less criticism because of it. 

 

You elegantly lay out the many Beane errors and the state of the team because of it.

 

As a neutral fan, it appears the Bills are on a descending path while many teams are trending in the opposite direction. 

 

So many things have to go right for the Bills to maintain their playoff and divisional edge. Health, player development, draft and free agency, and coaching. It seems unlikely that everything will fall in place. The Bills organization are in this position because of Beane and McD. There is little to argue about that. 

 

Do you view the regime's six years as a success? Hard to say it hasn't been successful. It depends on how you see things and what's the end goal. Clearly, no Super Bowl appearance or ring is disappointing. I think that is a realistic goal once you land your franchise QB. 

 

As a biased Bills fan, the last six years of football has largely been a joy to watch. The playoff run has been a lot of fun. The KC game, win vs Colts, pick 6 vs Balt, beat down vs NE to name a few. Of course, it comes with some major disappointment too. Most notably the last two years of playoff failure.

 

I'm seriously starting to doubt this current coaching staff and regime can get it done. The path is becoming much more difficult because of the Beane and McD failures. 

 

Thanks!  Appreciate it!  

 

Allow me to comment on this part of your comments in particular, as well as answer your question ... 

 

Quote

 

Of course, we have to give Beane and McD credit for turning around a losing organization to a winning one.

 

Six straight playoff appearances is definetly no small accomplishment.

 

Clearly, the Allen pick is the major reason for the success. That pick was by no means a safe one. No doubt it was more than the right one. Beane hit the grand slam and arguably has earned less criticism because of it. 

 

... 

 

Do you view the regime's six years as a success? Hard to say it hasn't been successful. It depends on how you see things and what's the end goal. Clearly, no Super Bowl appearance or ring is disappointing. I think that is a realistic goal once you land your franchise QB. 

 

As a biased Bills fan, the last six years of football has largely been a joy to watch. The playoff run has been a lot of fun. The KC game, win vs Colts, pick 6 vs Balt, beat down vs NE to name a few. Of course, it comes with some major disappointment too. Most notably the last two years of playoff failure.

 

I'm seriously starting to doubt this current coaching staff and regime can get it done. The path is becoming much more difficult because of the Beane and McD failures. 

 

 

To start, we had an incredible amount of luck getting into the playoffs in 2017, so let's not credit McD entirely for that.  Beane's influence wasn't even a factor then since he wasn't involved in the 2017 Draft other than as a spectator.  

 

After that and otherwise, it's only been four straight playoff appearances, not six.  But point taken.  But I would turn that into how have we performed in those playoffs.  Apart from the Miami game with Skylar "Who's He" Thompson leading the Fins a month ago, we've allowed an average of 410 yards in the 7 playoff games prior to that in those four seasons.  Is that good?   Hardly.  

 

I would also argue that we lost to the Texans in the 2019 Playoffs, to the Chiefs in 2021, and to the Bengals this season, all games that we should have won.  

 

The Allen pick was not only the major reason for it, I think that it's quite safe to say that it's the only reason for it.  Which other picks by Beane have contributed to a significant extent to it?  I don't see one.  His free agents helped, feeding into my original argument, but no draft picks otherwise.  

 

So if Allen was the reason for it, and since all of our other coaches and GMs have "sucked," which generally they have, and I don't think that any of them would have taken us to the promised land either, even with Allen, but wouldn't a fair way to look at this then be how would those coaches and GMs have been viewed had the unique Allen come along on their watch?  

 

I'll say firmly right now, that strip off Allen, and IMO many of the teams over that "Last 20 Years" stretch were better apart from the QB position.  Our OLs alone in most of those years were notably better than the one we have now.  We definitely had better RBs, and while we didn't have a Diggs, we did have Jackson, Henry, Lynch, McCoy, Moulds, Johnson, Evans, Price, Riemersma, Chandler on offense, and on defense we had Schobel, Kyle Williams, Whitner, Kelsay, Fletcher, Clements, Milloy, McGee, Byrd, McKelvin, Aaron Williams, Hughes, etc.  

 

Now imagine if Allen had been on those teams.  "The Last 20 Years" wouldn't even be a thing, and any number of those coaches and GMs would have been getting the fanfare that McBeane are.  

 

On the flip side, take Allen off this team and IMO we're looking at the worst single era of football under McBeane than we've seen since the pre-Levy days.  (coach that is, not GM Levy)  

 

This team does not have a lot of talent on it, and what it does have is largely bought talent of known players, not anything having to do with Beane's prowess as a talent evaluator from the NCAA ranks.  As I essentially said up top.  So it's really a matter of perspective.  

 

So in answering your question ... 

 

Quote

Do you view the regime's six years as a success?

 

... the answer to that is wholly dependent upon the perspective.  I would ask a "success" predicated upon what?  

 

If the simple criteria is "making the playoffs," then the fact answers the question.  But the moment a "why?" is introduced, everything changes.  

 

If the criteria is, as you cited, "a joy to watch the games," "a playoff run," a few plays in isolation, ... sure, I guess it's a success by that standard.  

 

But I would first define what "success" in this case is, and for me it's different.  I've noticed that many of the posters here are older guys that went thru that Super Bowl stretch (and we haven't even sniffed a Super Bowl yet) and have been there, done that regarding "making the playoffs."  I was at every one of our home playoff games back then, like many here (other than the comeback game for me, LOL), experienced that level of excitement.  I could go into details but let's just say it was just as exciting back then.  I've also noticed a number of poster having said that they'd even be fine with the team moving if we'd win a Super Bowl first, myself among them.  

 

So for those whose standard is a Championship, no, we wouldn't call it a success.  But I would go even further.  

 

I've always maintained that I'm good with whatever outcomes occur as long as we do the best that we can with the resources that we have, both on the field as well as drafting, offseason, etc.  Do you think that we've done the most we could with the resources we've had on their watch?  You've already answered that and said no, so that's clear.  And I apply the same to myself personally, I've always said that if I get beat on a field/court, but I played my best and did everything that I could to win, I'm good with it.  That's all one can do. 

 

But what we have here is the opposite.  McBeane are "succeeding" despite themselves and their decisions, because the bar is not a championship, or even building a complete team even if we don't win a championship.  We have anything but a complete team.  We have tons of holes despite Beane now having had 5 seasons to work his magic, and on-field performance that leaves much to be desired after six seasons of McD's "Process."  In fact, we have a worse cap situation now than when Beane inherited the team.  That hardly spells that he's doing a great job given the fact that he doesn't even have a solid overall roster as the reason for the cap issues.  

 

If you ask me, had Allen been here instead of Bledsoe, Fitzpatrick, or those transitionary QBs in between, we're not even having this conversation.  

 

So perspective really is the lion's share of one's perspective on this.  But at the end of the day, both Beane's and McD's efforts have not only fallen short given what they've had to work with, but the reason is because of them, their methodologies.  I mean who's to blame for "13 Seconds" and not having the team prepared for the Skylar-Led Miami and Cinci this season?  McD is, clearly.  Who's responsible for having B & C level talent across our roster and depth chart other than for Allen and a few players that predated Beane, coupled with a significant salary-cap issue caused by an overreliance on expensive free agents?  Beane is, clearly.  

 

I realize that you agree with that, but I'm saying at some point you have to fish or cut bait, and I see absolutely nothing on the table here that tells me that either McD's process or Beane's team building methodologies are for some entirely unbeknownst much less entirely unsubstantiated reason are going to bring home the hardware.  Sure, if we move on then we may not find a coach or GM that can, but that then becomes the job of Pegula, Reccuia, or someone else in the organization to find them that can.  But I find it incredibly difficult to believe that just about any coach or GM that we would replace them with would do worse as long as Allen's here.  The job that they've done, while "having made the playoffs," is all but entirely attributable to Allen, particularly since our D goes on vacation once the regular season ends, and if Allen's here, any coaching would do similarly  I don't see how it's possible to do a much worse job than Beane's done having stocked the team with no A-List players beside Allen, who we both acknowledge was another enormously risky decision, from our drafts.  Again, Dawkins and Milano don't count for Beane.  Which brings up a point, we can argue that we did better in the drafts without Beane that one season.  That was by far and away one of our best drafts and arguably our best draft since our 2001 Draft which produced Clements, Schobel, and Henry.  

 

It's all about perspective, but it's a terminal mistake to say that McBeane have done better than their predecessors since 2000 or so without considering what those teams would have been like if A, Allen had been on them and McBeane had had what those GMs/HCs had for QBs, and B, comparing how the rosters of those teams stacked up to our current roster apart from Allen.  

 

51 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

for a 55-21 team, this board certainly is an angry mob isn't it?  must be the mid February blues.  

 

I don't see a lot of anger, I see a lot of dissatisfaction.  There's a difference.  

Edited February 19, 2023 by PBF81

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

I agree Elam was not the only misstep. I'm talking about it because the criticism still gets pushback, at this point nobody is deluding themselves into thinking Epenesa and Basham were great picks so there's no discussion. Your attempt to shame me into not disagreeing with you with a word like "obsession" is a real gas.

 

The Elam pick was poor team-building strategy, and it did represent over-investment for a limited return. A premium asset and we're getting very little out of it, both short- and long-term. The Bills system de-emphasizes cornerbacks.

 

It really doesn't. You don't need elite physical gifts to play zone in the Bills scheme but it doesn't mean you can plug and play just round 6 and 7 players and UDFAs. 

 

The Bills were literally there if they didn't draft Elam. And I say that as someone who did not really want a corner in round 1 last year. But their lack of investment in the position previously forced them into that pick. It is UNDER investment at corner.

4 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I know that’s been your opinion based on scheme but the footage tells a different story.

 

KC’s general manager also alluded to him thinking that Beane wanted McDuffie.

 

I have had it confirmed to me too. It isn't just my opinion on scheme. 

4 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

But they really didn't have to @GunnerBill. They could've waited and selected Tariq Woolen. This goes back to the scouting. Woolen had all the measurables of Elam. The only real difference was the level of competition they played against. 

 

I liked Woolen. But he was the most boom or bust guy I have ever scouted. He boomed. But I understand why the Bills were not thrilled with him as plan A.