Your Gut Instinct: Are Beane/McDermott On Track to Win Championship(s) or Wasting J. Allen's talent?

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, Chaos said:

Tomlin, Harbaugh and Carroll all did this early in their tenures. They have been resting on those laurels a long time. 

It's not going to be exactly the same because history doesn't repeat itself but if often rhymes.  Point is they're solid head coaches with an elite QB who work for a steady and competent GM with an owner that doesn't meddle.  They've punched a lot of lottery tickets (playoffs) over their careers.

[Bills!Win!]

The bills are really following in the steps of the early 2000s colts and Peyton manning. In that time when the bills were very average, come playoff time I’d find myself rooting for the colts. They has bill polian and the patriots were their nemesis. No matter how many 12-4, 13-3 or 14-2 season they had they’d always come up short against the jets, chargers, Steelers and especially patriots. 
 

I believe the bills will win 1 Super Bowl and probably lose 1 in Allen’s time here. When he retires we will be thinking of how many chances we blew. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Bills!Win!

[BuffaL0L0k0]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:52 AM, Chaos said:

You do understand Elway needed a HC change before he won it all? Or don't you know things?

Denver's timeline is showing ONE factor with HC change, but there are many other factors involved, one of them

was acquiring a stud RB (and , BTW, the last RB to earn an mvp in Super Sunday, to date) named Terrell Davis...

[Chaos]

9 minutes ago, BuffaL0L0k0 said:

Denver's timeline is showing ONE factor with HC change, but there are many other factors involved, one of them

was acquiring a stud RB (and , BTW, the last RB to earn an mvp in Super Sunday, to date) named Terrell Davis...

Reeves wasted nine years of Elways career (if winning super bowls is the goal).  Broncos hurt themselves hanging on to him for far to long.  As an aside Shanahans innovative zone blocking scheme (a coaching concept) allowed Davis to excel the way he did. 

[Nihilarian]

11 hours ago, Billever76 said:

Other teams build superbowl teams in half the time McDermott and this staff have been here...we are going on yr 7 now of this regime...we are no closer now than we were 3 yrs ago!....you can continue to hang your hat on a coaching staff who without josh allen would have this team around a 7-10 record at best!...everyone holds this staff so high bc they accredit the drought being broke to them...thing is the turnaround of this franchise is bc of Josh Allen and diggs...these coaches have held him back from reaching his peak with their outdated approach to the modern nfl

And who masterfully traded up to the #7 spot in the 2018 draft to draft Josh Allen? The very best player in the 2018 NFL draft! And who masterfully traded away a #1 pick to obtain WR Stephon Diggs... when the Vikings said they wouldn't trade him?

 

This franchise had the #1 overall defense last season and its been pretty darn good since McD got to Buffalo. #2 in points allowed in 2019, #3 in yards allowed. #2 in points allowed, #6 in yards allowed this season... even with all the adversity!

 

Exactly how many teams have managed to beat the KC Chiefs the last few years? The very best team in the NFL the last few seasons. You know, the team that won the SB in 2019, that went back to the SB in 2020 and is again in the SB this season! Yeah, that's right Buffalo beat them 2x in the regular season in 2021, 2022. 

 

This HC went to the playoffs with TYROD TAYLOR at QB! Anyone else do that with that QB? So, don't tell me that this would be a 7-10 team without Josh Allen! YES, they lean and depend on him more than they should. Former Bills OC Brian Daboll put a saddle on Josh and rode him to being the New HC of the NY Giants. Looks like new Buffalo OC Ken Dorsey is attempting to do the very same thing. 

 

Any team going 13-3 with all the adversity this team faced this season was doing something right. The #2 offense in points scored, the #2 offense in yards...that is better than most years with Daboll and equaled his best season as Buffalo OC in 2020. The defense #2 in points allowed, #6 in yards allowed after so many devastating injuries to the starters would decimate other teams. 

 

Yes, the 2022 Buffalo Bills were SMOKED by the Cincinnati Bengals 27-10 in a playoff game IN Buffalo. Trust me, I'm not at all happy about it either! the Bengals also knocked off the KC Chiefs in their home in the AFC Championship game last season to go to the SB. Lost this season to the Chiefs in the Championship game. 

 

This happens to be super ELITE talented teams that the Buffalo Bills have faced in the playoffs, (save Texans with Watson in 2019). KC in 2020, KC in 2021, Cincy in 2022. 

 

What team built their SB team in half the time as the Chiefs took 7 years under Reid to get to the big dance. The Bengals went 2-14 in 2019 under new HC Zac Taylor. They went 4-11 in 2020 and drafted Joe Burrow and Tee Higgins #1 overall, #33. Then drafted Ja'Marr Chase in 2021. So they went to the SB in four years under Taylor because of their previous crappy season records. Buffalo managed to build their team drafting near last every year. 

 

The Bucs did it with the GOAT in 2020 and what happened this season 8-9? The Rams went to the SB in McVay's 2nd year and won the SB in McVay's 5th season by going all out for talent as they gave up a #2 pick to Denver for Von Miller. Buffalo gave up no draft picks for him. Philly had just won a SB in 2017 and had been in the playoffs recently 2018, 2019, 2021 and pulled a Rams this season by going after some highly touted veterans, 13 free agents signed from other teams including Suh, Reddick.

 

In 2022, My take is the Buffalo Bills desperately needed that bye week badly and didn't get it. They were emotionally spent after seeing a fellow player fall on the field from a heart attack (among other things). The Bengals showed the Bills their flaws in being dominated on both sides of the line along with little or no pass rush. Josh had no time to throw and with no run game or attempt to build a run attack it put everything on Josh. Let's face it, the Bengals out played and out coached the Buffalo Bills this game.

 

For myself, I have faith that this GM, HC with figure things out for the 2023 season, get the coaches, players focused and on the right track for a SB run.  

[GunnerBill]

11 hours ago, Chaos said:

Reeves wasted nine years of Elways career (if winning super bowls is the goal).  Broncos hurt themselves hanging on to him for far to long.  As an aside Shanahans innovative zone blocking scheme (a coaching concept) allowed Davis to excel the way he did. 

 

So I have a question... McDermott has basically had 3 years of elite QB play - 2020, 2021 and 2022 - and hasn't gotten it done. Josh wasn't elite in 2019. He was decent, but not Suprerbowl winning calibre. 

 

Let's say you are Pegula, you fire McDermott and you hire coach X. If Coach X hasn't got it done in 3 years are you firing him too? Are you just gonna give each guy 3 years of Josh's career in the hope eventually one gets you a Superbowl? 

 

I am not fishing it is a genuine question. 

[davefan66]

I believe in Beane and McD.

 

I need to see what Beane does this off-season though. Will he be able to fill holes and keep players we need?  Will he draft a few starters in key positions, and add quality depth?  Can he hit on a few FA’s that are cap friendly?  Will he “mortgage” the future, or manage the cap without causing future problems?

 

If he can score a WR2, interior Oline, Dback depth and either resign Edmunds or replace him with a good player and I think we would be set for next year. Big shopping list, but let’s see what Beane can do.

 

 

[SoTier]

Of all the crappy polls ever posted on this MB, this one has got to be one of the very worst.   The OP might have tried to have at least one realistic alternative choice.  My "gut feeling" is that the poll deserves at least five thumbs down ...         

[Chaos]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I have a question... McDermott has basically had 3 years of elite QB play - 2020, 2021 and 2022 - and hasn't gotten it done. Josh wasn't elite in 2019. He was decent, but not Suprerbowl winning calibre. 

 

Let's say you are Pegula, you fire McDermott and you hire coach X. If Coach X hasn't got it done in 3 years are you firing him too? Are you just gonna give each guy 3 years of Josh's career in the hope eventually one gets you a Superbowl? 

 

I am not fishing it is a genuine question. 

McDermott will have had 7 years as a coach by the end of this year, not three. If he can't advance past the divisional round again in his 7th season, it is reasonable to make an assessment of what he is likely to achieve with the Bills. I would expect to make the divisional round of the playoffs in the first year with the next coach.  If we failed to make the playoffs, he would likely be one and done. My baseline would be to make the divisional round of the playoffs, and show progress towards winning an AFC Championship in the first three years. And if progress is made I would expect a fourth season. If Allen plays at an elite level through McDermott Season 7 and four seasons of a new coach without an AFC championship, I would publicly apologize too him for wasting his time, and work with him to land with a new team, and hopefully get a trove of draft picks to start over again.  A lot of ifs in there. 

5 minutes ago, SoTier said:

Of all the crappy polls ever posted on this MB, this one has got to be one of the very worst.   The OP might have tried to have at least one realistic alternative choice.  My "gut feeling" is that the poll deserves at least five thumbs down ...         

250 votes, over 200 replies (yours is the only truly useless one), over 5 thousand views.  it has a pretty high level of engagement.  I can't help it that you are not able to understand the question. 

[Gregg]

They are weak up front especially on the OL. They suck in short yardage situations. Allen is their most dangerous threat running the ball. That is not a good look when your QB is your main threat running. Allen is constantly under pressure and lucky for him he can avoid the rush very well. Otherwise, he would be getting killed out there. Defensively they couldn't rush the QB after Von went down. They are inconsistent when it comes to stopping the run. Beane needs to build the lines especially on offense. I would even go with the same receiving group and RB's if we had better lines. Why would you build a finesse football team who has to play in WNY in the elements? That is what the Bills are a finesse football team. 

[Dr. Who]

4 minutes ago, Gregg said:

They are weak up front especially on the OL. They suck in short yardage situations. Allen is their most dangerous threat running the ball. That is not a good look when your QB is your main threat running. Allen is constantly under pressure and lucky for him he can avoid the rush very well. Otherwise, he would be getting killed out there. Defensively they couldn't rush the QB after Von went down. They are inconsistent when it comes to stopping the run. Beane needs to build the lines especially on offense. I would even go with the same receiving group and RB's if we had better lines. Why would you build a finesse football team who has to play in WNY in the elements? That is what the Bills are a finesse football team. 

Your complaint about the lines is, of course, correct, but there aren't enough resources to rebuild both. I say concentrate on the oline. Also, no way I am satisfied with a receiving group that had to bring in Brown and Beasely. You need an upgrade at WR2 (Davis is fine as a #3 option,) a better blocking TE#2, and a bruiser RB to compliment Cook. That's where the resources should go. Let the defensive HC coach up the D with the best we can do after we address the offense as priority #1.

[GunnerBill]

55 minutes ago, Chaos said:

McDermott will have had 7 years as a coach by the end of this year, not three. If he can't advance past the divisional round again in his 7th season, it is reasonable to make an assessment of what he is likely to achieve with the Bills. I would expect to make the divisional round of the playoffs in the first year with the next coach.  If we failed to make the playoffs, he would likely be one and done. My baseline would be to make the divisional round of the playoffs, and show progress towards winning an AFC Championship in the first three years. And if progress is made I would expect a fourth season. If Allen plays at an elite level through McDermott Season 7 and four seasons of a new coach without an AFC championship, I would publicly apologize too him for wasting his time, and work with him to land with a new team, and hopefully get a trove of draft picks to start over again.  A lot of ifs in there. 

 

 

Your concern though, so far as I understand it, is that we might waste Josh Allen. That is a fair concern. But in that context I don't think 2017-19 are years of concern. Against that metric we should be concerned with how far have we gone with elite level Josh in 2020-22. 

 

My understanding is your ideal scenario (while you recognise it isn't happening) is a coaching change now. Which essentially says McDermott has had 3 goes with an elite QB, 1 AFCCG and two Divisional Round exits he is out. 

 

So what if the next guy manages the same in his 3 years? Does the order matter? If he went divisional, divisional, AFCCG would he get year 4? But not the other way around presumably?

 

It took Shanahan 3 years after inheriting Elway (and he missed the playoffs entirely year 1). Took Dungy 5 years after inheriting Manning (I use those two examples because they are more akin to what we have here inheriting elite QBs with miles left on the clock rather than the Gruden / Kubiak examples where it was like a final 1 year roll of the dice without elite QB play and then years of suckitude after). I just think that level of impatience is a risk. 

 

There will come a point when McDermott runs out of chances. Maybe its next year, maybe its the year after, maybe it never happens and he wins one. But even if McDermott goes after next year I'd want to give the guy that follows a proper shot at it too and not just 3 strikes and you're out. 

 

And I certainly wouldn't say you have been elite for 6 and or 7 years (3 under McDermott and 3/4 under his successor) and we haven't won a Superbowl so there you go Josh I'll trade you away. Where is the logic in that? How does that help the Bills to win?

Edited February 6, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Dr. Who]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Your concern though, so far as I understand it, is that we might waste Josh Allen. That is a fair concern. But in that context I don't think 2017-19 are years of concern. Against that metric we should be concerned with how far have we gone with elite level Josh in 2020-22. 

 

My understanding is your ideal scenario (while you recognise it isn't happening) is a coaching change now. Which essentially says McDermott has had 3 goes with an elite QB, 1 AFCCG and two Divisional Round exits he is out. 

 

So what if the next guy manages the same in his 3 years? Does the order matter? If he went divisional, divisional, AFCCG would he get year 4? But not the other way around presumably?

 

It took Shanahan 3 years after inheriting Elway (and he missed the playoffs entirely year 1). Took Dungy 5 years after inheriting Manning (I use those two examples because they are more akin to what we have here inheriting elite QBs with miles left on the clock rather than the Gruden / Kubiak examples where it was like a final 1 year roll of the dice without elite QB play and then years of suckitude after). I just think that level of impatience is a risk. 

 

There will come a point when McDermott runs out of chances. Maybe its next year, maybe its the year after, maybe it never happens and he wins one. But even if McDermott goes after next year I'd want to give the guy that follows a proper shot at it too and not just 3 strikes and you're out. 

 

And I certainly wouldn't say you have been elite for 6 and or 7 years (3 under McDermott and 3/4 under his successor) and we haven't won a Superbowl so there you go Josh I'll trade you away. Where is the logic in that? How does that help the Bills to win?

I appreciate the exasperation of the OP, but your analysis here is impeccable. The clock with developed franchise qb does not start with rookie Josh.

[QCity]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I have a question... McDermott has basically had 3 years of elite QB play - 2020, 2021 and 2022 - and hasn't gotten it done. Josh wasn't elite in 2019. He was decent, but not Suprerbowl winning calibre. 

 

Let's say you are Pegula, you fire McDermott and you hire coach X. If Coach X hasn't got it done in 3 years are you firing him too? Are you just gonna give each guy 3 years of Josh's career in the hope eventually one gets you a Superbowl? 

 

I am not fishing it is a genuine question. 

 

I say this fully aware that McD and Beane aren't going anywhere as long as Allen is under center.

 

The dream scenario is to hire an offensive-minded head coach that will work with Allen for the rest of his career. When you have an elite QB you are going to be burning through offensive coordinators every ~3 years, so in a way we are already in the scenario you described. Allen will likely go through 4+ coordinators in his career. We are already in an evaluation period for Dorsey. I know what the offensive numbers are. Did we hit those because of Dorsey's gameplanning and scheming, or was it all Allen? I would certainly say the latter after year 1. Taylor/Burrow and Reid/Mahomes are at a huge advantage from a continuity standpoint.

 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, QCity said:

 

I say this fully aware that McD and Beane aren't going anywhere as long as Allen is under center.

 

The dream scenario is to hire an offensive-minded head coach that will work with Allen for the rest of his career. When you have an elite QB you are going to be burning through offensive coordinators every ~3 years, so in a way we are already in the scenario you described. Allen will likely go through 4+ coordinators in his career. We are already in an evaluation period for Dorsey. I know what the offensive numbers are. Did we hit those because of Dorsey's gameplanning and scheming, or was it all Allen? I would certainly say the latter after year 1. Taylor/Burrow and Reid/Mahomes are at a huge advantage from a continuity standpoint.

 

 

Taylor isn't the play caller and has only briefly called plays once in his career as interim OC for the Dolphins in 2015 under Dan Campbell. I don't know how much input he has into offensive scheme and planning in Cincinnati but if Brian Callahan gets hired away I think they will be in the same boat of cycling coordinators. Sure, Reid is a different case, it is HIS offense. Not sure that is the case with Taylor. 

[QCity]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Taylor isn't the play caller and has only briefly called plays once in his career as interim OC for the Dolphins in 2015 under Dan Campbell. I don't know how much input he has into offensive scheme and planning in Cincinnati but if Brian Callahan gets hired away I think they will be in the same boat of cycling coordinators. Sure, Reid is a different case, it is HIS offense. Not sure that is the case with Taylor. 

 

The larger point I was making remains.

[Gregg]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I have a question... McDermott has basically had 3 years of elite QB play - 2020, 2021 and 2022 - and hasn't gotten it done. Josh wasn't elite in 2019. He was decent, but not Suprerbowl winning calibre. 

 

Let's say you are Pegula, you fire McDermott and you hire coach X. If Coach X hasn't got it done in 3 years are you firing him too? Are you just gonna give each guy 3 years of Josh's career in the hope eventually one gets you a Superbowl? 

 

I am not fishing it is a genuine question. 

 

5 playoff appearances in 6 years. Three straight division titles. McBean isn't getting fired. I do hope they move on from Frazier. The only way I would consider getting rid of McDermott would be if Bill and the Pats decided to part ways. In that scenario I would offer Bill a blank check and give him total control of the organization. Bill won six Super Bowls with an elite level franchise QB. He would definitely win with Josh. Since that has no chance of happening, we have to hope McBean figures it out. It's not like our (fans) opinion means anything. Only Terry can make real changes and I doubt he is going to right now.

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

250 votes, over 200 replies (yours is the only truly useless one), over 5 thousand views.  it has a pretty high level of engagement.  I can't help it that you are not able to understand the question. 

 

You obviously don't like hearing opinions that don't agree with your own because you created a poll intended to solicit anti-Beane/McDermott responses by providing 2 anti-Beane/McDermott responses and 2 totally unrealistic alternative choices that discouraged responses to your anti-Beane/McDermott choices.   That's the ultimate in a useless poll. 

 

52 minutes ago, Gregg said:

They are weak up front especially on the OL. They suck in short yardage situations. Allen is their most dangerous threat running the ball. That is not a good look when your QB is your main threat running. Allen is constantly under pressure and lucky for him he can avoid the rush very well. Otherwise, he would be getting killed out there. Defensively they couldn't rush the QB after Von went down. They are inconsistent when it comes to stopping the run. Beane needs to build the lines especially on offense. I would even go with the same receiving group and RB's if we had better lines. Why would you build a finesse football team who has to play in WNY in the elements? That is what the Bills are a finesse football team. 

 

Exactly.  While coaching is frequently a difference maker in today's NFL, there's a limit to how much good/great coaching can make up for a lack of talent.  That the Bills lack OL talent has really been exposed this past season, and especially in the playoffs.   How much the Bills missed Von Miller on the defensive line was exposed in the playoffs, too.  It was clear to me even before the first Cinci game that the Bills couldn't run with the Bengals and Chiefs just based on talent, some of it because of injury, possibly because of lack of experience, but a lot of it because some of the linemen, especially on offense, just aren't good enough.   An improved OL will improve the offense far more (and more quickly) than just about any other change.

[Billsfan1972]

22 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

5 playoff appearances in 6 years. Three straight division titles. McBean isn't getting fired. I do hope they move on from Frazier. The only way I would consider getting rid of McDermott would be if Bill and the Pats decided to part ways. In that scenario I would offer Bill a blank check and give him total control of the organization. Bill won six Super Bowls with an elite level franchise QB. He would definitely win with Josh. Since that has no chance of happening, we have to hope McBean figures it out. It's not like our (fans) opinion means anything. Only Terry can make real changes and I doubt he is going to right now.

I vomited at the thought of Bill as the HC!!!

 

McD isn't getting fired.  Only hope is that he and Pegula get into a huge fight over philosophy.

 

I will be over the moon if the Bills win the SB next year with McD/Frazier/Dorsey et al. 

 

Go on all you want about the regular season, however with Allen, the results sorry are a given +- 1 to 2 games.

 

This is Allen's team that will go as far as he takes them. 

[Gregg]

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I vomited at the thought of Bill as the HC!!!

 

McD isn't getting fired.  Only hope is that he and Pegula get into a huge fight over philosophy.

 

I will be over the moon if the Bills win the SB next year with McD/Frazier/Dorsey et al. 

 

Go on all you want about the regular season, however with Allen, the results sorry are a given +- 1 to 2 games.

 

This is Allen's team that will go as far as he takes them. 

 

I would love to see Bill coaching this team. Six Super Bowls with a franchise QB. It's not going to happen of course, but he would bring a Lombardi to Buffalo with Allen as the QB. I would rather see that then McClappy talking about process and Frazier's D leading to another disappointing playoff exit.

[Billsfan1972]

6 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

You obviously don't like hearing opinions that don't agree with your own because you created a poll intended to solicit anti-Beane/McDermott responses by providing 2 anti-Beane/McDermott responses and 2 totally unrealistic alternative choices that discouraged responses to your anti-Beane/McDermott choices.   That's the ultimate in a useless poll. 

 

 

Exactly.  While coaching is frequently a difference maker in today's NFL, there's a limit to how much good/great coaching can make up for a lack of talent.  That the Bills lack OL talent has really been exposed this past season, and especially in the playoffs.   How much the Bills missed Von Miller on the defensive line was exposed in the playoffs, too.  It was clear to me even before the first Cinci game that the Bills couldn't run with the Bengals and Chiefs just based on talent, some of it because of injury, possibly because of lack of experience, but a lot of it because some of the linemen, especially on offense, just aren't good enough.   An improved OL will improve the offense far more (and more quickly) than just about any other change.

And the excuses keep coming.  Cincy was on a hot streak, but were not blowing out or dominating opponents (compare that to the 2020 Bills down the stretch).  They are a very good team, as are the Chjiefs (who too had tight games down the stretch).

 

The difference was the Bills did nothing vs. Cincy and were "out coached".    

 

When others brought up concerns about coaching from the GB game on, as the win streak continued, were told "You don't understand, only winning matters, not how you win" or similar.  Everyone could see things were off and this was particularly due to COACHING. 

[teef]

6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And the excuses keep coming.  Cincy was on a hot streak, but were not blowing out or dominating opponents (compare that to the 2020 Bills down the stretch).  They are a very good team, as are the Chjiefs (who too had tight games down the stretch).

 

The difference was the Bills did nothing vs. Cincy and were "out coached".    

 

When others brought up concerns about coaching from the GB game on, as the win streak continued, were told "You don't understand, only winning matters, not how you win" or similar.  Everyone could see things were off and this was particularly due to COACHING. 

maybe it's time to take a break?

[Billsfan1972]

Just now, teef said:

maybe it's time to take a break?

I am about to take my annual February- September break.

 

As said McD and the band are back, I'll cheer the Bills in 2023 and already expect Allen & the Bills to win the SB in spite of McD et al.

 

Appreciate you being on top of it.

[ArtVandalay]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I have a question... McDermott has basically had 3 years of elite QB play - 2020, 2021 and 2022 - and hasn't gotten it done. Josh wasn't elite in 2019. He was decent, but not Suprerbowl winning calibre. 

 

Let's say you are Pegula, you fire McDermott and you hire coach X. If Coach X hasn't got it done in 3 years are you firing him too? Are you just gonna give each guy 3 years of Josh's career in the hope eventually one gets you a Superbowl? 

 

I am not fishing it is a genuine question. 

You have to look at his decision making as a coach in the previous years as well, not just the end result, to determine if he got the most of out of the team in those years too.

 

Sure, we weren't winning the Superbowl with Tyrod but that 10-3 loss to the Jaguars was brutal and his decision making during the game on the offensive side of the ball was horrendous. We had a long drive that game where virtually every yard was gained by McCoy on the ground or air. We get down to the goal line, 1st and goal on the 1... what do we do? Call a pass to Kelvon Benjamin, take a 10 yard penalty then settle for a FG... it was a horrendous game... now that team wasn't really going anywhere but McDs performance was terrible. But hey, first appearance, you don't have a good QB, it's a learning experience I get it. 

 

You have to keep in mind too that was the year the Bills drafted Nate Peterman, McD swore he was the next best thing, benched Tyrod for him on for Peterman to have the worst appeance by a QB in NFL History, completing 6 of 16 for 66 yards, 0 TD, 5 INT... literally the worst QB debut in NFL history no joke. That's the guy McD thought gave us the best chance to win. Massive mark against him and his futility to have any competence in the offensive side of the ball other than let someone else do it. 

 

Then against Houston we all know how that game went packing the offense in at the end of the first half, purposely settling for FGs once we got in FG range, going up 16-0 in the first half only to lose. Just again, a competely mismanaged game from McD, it was disappointing to see no growth there from the Jaguars game. 

 

Coaches need to develop, grow, and learn as well, but every year in the playoffs we get the same ole timid guy that pisses down his leg and pukes all over his feet. 13 seconds was an abomination by a defensive coach and he took zero accountability for it after the game and instead blamed it on execution. Then this year we just don't show up, completely unprepared for both games.  

 

There's no growth, and I'm fact the team has gone backwards from our Conference Chamionship loss these past two years losing in the Divisional and now firmly behind the Bengals in pecking order as well. 

[teef]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I am about to take my annual February- September break.

 

As said McD and the band are back, I'll cheer the Bills in 2023 and already expect Allen & the Bills to win the SB in spite of McD et al.

 

Appreciate you being on top of it.

it's a game man.  take it in stride.  i've never seen someone so excited to be upset.

[RyanC883]

Who voted JA does not have the talent to win?   He is more talented than past SB winning QBs.  The issue is the roster/coaching around him.  

[Billsfan1972]

38 minutes ago, teef said:

it's a game man.  take it in stride.  i've never seen someone so excited to be upset.

Just letting my frustrations out.  All good and yep know it's a game.  Will see you in September.😗

[HappyDays]

18 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Let's say you are Pegula, you fire McDermott and you hire coach X. If Coach X hasn't got it done in 3 years are you firing him too? Are you just gonna give each guy 3 years of Josh's career in the hope eventually one gets you a Superbowl? 

 

It isn't just about winning the Super Bowl. It's about putting us in position to at least contend for a Super Bowl. 2020 I don't blame McDermott for. We were still getting our playoffs feet wet and weren't on the level of the Chiefs yet. 2021 coaching malpractice cost us a game we had won. 2022 we squeaked by a wildcard team on its 3rd string QB and had a poor gameplan on both sides of the ball in the divisional round and got blown out. So there is actually a downward trend. We are further away from a Super Bowl now than we were in 2020 despite being more experienced in playoff games.

 

Get us to the AFCCG or the Super Bowl and we lose a heartbreaker because the other team's talent makes more plays, you can live with that from your coaches. That was 2020. Getting embarrassed for different reasons in consecutive playoff exits is not something you can live with. It falls on coaching. Next year if we still don't even sniff a Super Bowl appearance then yes I am ready to give someone else a shot.

[Larry mackowiak]

The team is fine...yes last year 13 seconds we were definitely peaking. As far as this year way to many Hurdles to overcome mentally. McDermott kept the team glued beginning of the season serious injuries MILLER ect. Next the snow bug traveling back and forth from Detroit as players and coaches taking care of there families. Next HAMLIN goes down with CARDIAC AREST on the field...WAY TO MANY MENTAL ASPECTS TO MOVE ON FROM...Yes injuries happen but with the other 2 mixed in equals disaster. THE BUFFALO BILLS WILL WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITH ALLEN MCDERMOTT AND BEANE...BE PATIENT MY FRIENDS

[John from Riverside]

You gotta be in it to win it
 

They are in it

[Not at the table Karlos]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:00 PM, Billsfan1972 said:

Called coaching and seemed the later in the season, the more frustrated he was and we saw more long balls.  They had plenty of time to design an offense that worked.  

 

And how about some easy passes and separation by the receivers.  

 

Defenses figured out Dorsey the second half. 

There was easy passes from time to time. Josh would look them off and throw to a receiver with multiple defenders on them. Dorsey is a big problem but so is Josh's decision making. I don't think the two of them are good for each other.

 

I've met, talked to for a while and sat in on Dorsey talking to college and high school players. He struggled to keep people's attention and was kind of awkward. I was texting friends while he was talking that there's no way I'd listen to this guy as my coach.It was painful trying to listen to him talk and most of the players he was talking to tuned him out and started talking to each other instead of listening to him. Listening to him was kind of like watching his offense but with out Josh bailing him out. 

 

I've watched a bunch of coaches and players in that position over the years and the only other coach I saw that happen to was Dick Jauron. Van Pelt could get boring at times but he could clearly communicate what he was trying to say and you were learning something from him. Dorsey you left questioning what point he was trying to get across. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Not at the table Karlos

[John from Riverside]

On 2/4/2023 at 2:35 PM, WideNine said:

 

Marino did a good analysis of this and the numbers bear it out. We stink at screens.

 

A couple other interesting things he pulled out during that podcast was how much better Allen was with play action and how drastically play action was reduced under Dorsey.

 

And one brain twister was that Allen when passing from a clean pocket with time was less efficient than when pressured...

 

Don't know where to go with that assuming it's true.

 

 

 

 

I don’t believe that is true Josh Allen very seldom has a clean pocket

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

There was easy passes from time to time. Josh would look them off and throw to a receiver with multiple defenders on them. Dorsey is a big problem but so is Josh's decision making. I don't think the two of them are good for each other.

 

I've met, talked to for a while and sat in on Dorsey talking to college and high school players. He struggled to keep people's attention and was kind of awkward. I was texting friends while he was talking that there's no way I'd listen to this guy as my coach.It was painful trying to listen to him talk and most of the players he was talking to tuned him out and started talking to each other instead of listening to him. Listening to him was kind of like watching his offense but with out Josh bailing him out. 

 

I've watched a bunch of coaches and players in that position over the years and the only other coach I saw that happen to was Dick Jauron. Van Pelt could get boring at times but he could clearly communicate what he was trying to say and you were learning something from him. Dorsey you left questioning what point he was trying to get across. 

Thank you for your insight. I agree that this can be as simple as Dorsey and Allen don’t mesh well. We’ve already seen Allen be successful with another OC and he’s not going anywhere anytime soon. So swapping out Dorsey would make a lot of sense to me. If not that, then some help/oversight from an experienced offensive mind in a consultant role should be part of the plan. It will be very disappointing if nothing like that happens. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

10 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Thank you for your insight. I agree that this can be as simple as Dorsey and Allen don’t mesh well. We’ve already seen Allen be successful with another OC and he’s not going anywhere anytime soon. So swapping out Dorsey would make a lot of sense to me. If not that, then some help/oversight from an experienced offensive mind in a consultant role should be part of the plan. It will be very disappointing if nothing like that happens. 

We had Mike Shula last year helping him out, he might be back this year. idk how long his contract is for. Plus a bunch of former OCs on staff in Brady, Boras and Kromer. Our offense was still a clunky mess. 

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

It isn't just about winning the Super Bowl. It's about putting us in position to at least contend for a Super Bowl. 2020 I don't blame McDermott for. We were still getting our playoffs feet wet and weren't on the level of the Chiefs yet. 2021 coaching malpractice cost us a game we had won. 2022 we squeaked by a wildcard team on its 3rd string QB and had a poor gameplan on both sides of the ball in the divisional round and got blown out. So there is actually a downward trend. We are further away from a Super Bowl now than we were in 2020 despite being more experienced in playoff games.

 

Get us to the AFCCG or the Super Bowl and we lose a heartbreaker because the other team's talent makes more plays, you can live with that from your coaches. That was 2020. Getting embarrassed for different reasons in consecutive playoff exits is not something you can live with. It falls on coaching. Next year if we still don't even sniff a Super Bowl appearance then yes I am ready to give someone else a shot.

 

I don't think the Cincy one falls on coaching to the same extent that you do. That is the difference. I do think the other team's talent just made more plays than ours did. Our players made some pretty fundamental execution errors on the day and we played our worst game of the season. It's easy to say "eventually it comes back to coaching" but that gets me to my point.... how long does the next guy get to get it done? You are saying McDermott's missed 2 chances, if he misses a third he is done. What if the next guy loses in the playoffs 3 straight years too? Like Dungy did his first 4 years with Manning? Do you ditch him too? Of course a coaching change could work and you could win it all. But what if you still keep falling short? You going to cycle through 3/4 year stints for the next 12 years of Josh's career? That's my question. 

 

And I repeat what I have said before I can see a situation where by the end of next season I think it is time to try something different. But if they do that then unless they really screw up the hire (I mean Rex Ryan level screw up) I'd want that guy to get 5+ years too. 

[BarleyNY]

11 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

We had Mike Shula last year helping him out, he might be back this year. idk how long his contract is for. Plus a bunch of former OCs on staff in Brady, Boras and Kromer. Our offense was still a clunky mess. 

Not exactly an impressive group as far as OCs. I was thinking more along the lines of a very successful offensive mind who was retired with no interest in a full time coaching gig. Bring that person in as a mentor to Dorsey with the understanding that improvement is needed and he is here to help him grow. My preference would be to see Dorsey replaced, but they doesn’t look like it’s happening this off-season. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Not exactly an impressive group as far as OCs. I was thinking more along the lines of a very successful offensive mind who was retired with no interest in a full time coaching gig. Bring that person in as a mentor to Dorsey with the understanding that improvement is needed and he is here to help him grow. My preference would be to see Dorsey replaced, but they doesn’t look like it’s happening this off-season. 

 

Yea. Mike Shula was a bad OC. Boras and Kromer had one shot failed and will not get another. Joe Brady was out of his depth in CAR and needed to take a step back and learn. I get the idea about experienced heads in the room, but they didn't have a real experienced OC in there. 

[Billsfan1972]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think the Cincy one falls on coaching to the same extent that you do. That is the difference. I do think the other team's talent just made more plays than ours did. Our players made some pretty fundamental execution errors on the day and we played our worst game of the season. It's easy to say "eventually it comes back to coaching" but that gets me to my point.... how long does the next guy get to get it done? You are saying McDermott's missed 2 chances, if he misses a third he is done. What if the next guy loses in the playoffs 3 straight years too? Like Dungy did his first 4 years with Manning? Do you ditch him too? Of course a coaching change could work and you could win it all. But what if you still keep falling short? You going to cycle through 3/4 year stints for the next 12 years of Josh's career? That's my question. 

 

And I repeat what I have said before I can see a situation where by the end of next season I think it is time to try something different. But if they do that then unless they really screw up the hire (I mean Rex Ryan level screw up) I'd want that guy to get 5+ years too. 

They made plays because the defense let them.  They had 3 OL's out and the Bills had no pressure.

 

Yes the Bills secondary was decimated, but how about making a play, stepping up or a defensive scheme that made it difficult for Cincy to get thnings done.  It wasn't 2-3 plays, they moved the ball at will and had 30 first downs.

 

Oh & no TO's.  Not surprised because I thought they were not very good the second half of the season either and many were lucky or vs. bad QB's.

 

On the Offensive side, the Bills as they had been much of the second half of the season were/looked disjointed.  Again so many here claimed that wasn't the case when anyone brought it up and that Allen only had to protect the ball better.

 

When they needed just 1 first down prior to the half to get into FG range (heck 5 yards), that should have been their goal and the play calls.  First & goal the second half and 3 lousy calls by Dorsey.

 

And to top it off again 3rd & 2 and a long pass to the one receiver we all know won't make a contested catch, draw a penalty and if at all covered probably drops it Davis, and exactly what happened.

[OldTimer1960]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:24 PM, GoBills808 said:

They don't have the kind of athletes on offense with the physical talent to create offense for themselves. Diggs, as great a technician as he is, has the athleticism of a 5th rounder. He runs phenomenal routes and has great hands but he isn't a real threat after the catch. Davis, similarly, is a fourth rounder. Knox a third. McKenzie and Shakir are both 5th rounders. The Bills just don't have guys on offense with the kind of elite athleticism that can succeed outside play design or scheme.

I disagree on Diggs.  He is plenty athletic and Route running is really the best skill.  Most receivers are not markedly faster than most DBs in the NFL.  Quickness, route running and scheme are important.  Yes super top end speed and leaping ability and size help, but there are plenty of great receivers that are good NFL athletes, not great by NFL standards.

 

Agree that Davis and McKenzie are not top level receivers, but that doesn’t mean only super top athletes succeed at receiver.  Look at the NFL receiving leaders, some are super fast, many aren’t.

[Royale with Cheese]

23 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And the excuses keep coming.  Cincy was on a hot streak, but were not blowing out or dominating opponents (compare that to the 2020 Bills down the stretch).  They are a very good team, as are the Chjiefs (who too had tight games down the stretch).

 

The difference was the Bills did nothing vs. Cincy and were "out coached".    

 

When others brought up concerns about coaching from the GB game on, as the win streak continued, were told "You don't understand, only winning matters, not how you win" or similar.  Everyone could see things were off and this was particularly due to COACHING. 

 

It's not all coaching. 

 

Simple execution from the players was a major problem too.  There wasn't anyone on this board who was more upset about drops than you.  We had a ton of drops and in crucial situations.  That's not on coaching.  What was coached was the play design and that worked, the player didn't.

 

Allen made a ton of mistakes as well.  He couldn't stop turning the ball over, especially in the redzone.  He went from being nearly perfect in the redzone in his first couple of years to now leading the league in giveaways.  That was a major problem for us.

 

We never righted the ship after the GB game and it was a combination of coaching, player execution and several injuries.