What’s the Coverage? Who’s to blame? Waddle TD

[EmotionallyUnstable]

I’ve rewatched this a ton of times trying to figure out what the coverage was supposed to be and who you’d hang the TD on.

 

Set the scene: 

 

3rd Quarter: 3rd&4 

 

Dolphins in the gun, trey tight formation (3WRs to one side, TE to the opposite end of LOS).

 

Defensive Alignment Pre Snap:

 

Two shell look, with White playing 5-6 yards off of WR1, Taron locked on the slot (Hill) and WR 3 (Waddle) uncovered. 

 

Dane to the TE side playing a wide outside shade.

 

Post snap:

 

WR 1 drags across the field, pulling Edmunds up into the middle button hook. WR2 runs a skinny post, essentially attempting to hold Hamlin deep. WR 3 runs the opposite hash seam.

 

Tua eyes the crosser on WR 1 and Poyer jumps it, only to let Waddle fly behind him for the TD, exposing what appears to be Hamlin being beat deep.

 

Ive heard people assigning blame to #3 for this play because he is the one chasing. In my view, this appears to be on Poyer. 
 

Based on Dane’s initial alignment and drop post-snap, paired with the LBs (including Taron) who seem to be playing deep hook/curl window and White appearing to read WR2 (and calls out the drag) thus explaining his depth in his drop, makes me think this is cover 2.

 

Am I wrong here? Is this on Hamlin like many think, or is Poyer the one that should be catching heat?

 

 

[dma0034]

It was on Poyer. Edmunds pointed it out too and Poyer misplayed it

 

 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

It look like they are in a cover 3 sky post snap… disguised as Tampa 2 look 

 

poyer is in the deep third but rotated over slowly … they are clearly signaling speed in the middle and for him to get over into his deep third 

If he was playing the deep 3rd, why’d he jump the crosser? He is almost looking like a robber dropped into the hole post-snap…also, Milano’s drop was curious as he races out to hook/curl with no outside threat. Could this potentially be cover 6 to the trips? That’s make the Poyer jump even more egregious if he was playing deep half

Edited December 22, 2022 by EmotionallyUnstable

[Buffalo716]

It looks like they are in a cover 3 look disguised as 2 deep with pattern matching 

 

and there are obviously communication issues but Hamlin looks to be playing the deep third and does not rotate over 

 

17 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

If he was playing the deep 3rd, why’d he jump the crosser? He is almost looking like a robber dropped into the whole post-snap…also, Milano’s drop was curious as he races out to hook/curl with no outside threat. Could this potentially be cover 6 to the trips? That’s make the Poyer jump even more egregious if he was playing deep half

I retyped it… I meant it looks like Hamlin is the deep third not poyer

 

There’s clearly a miscommunication issue because poyer absolutely does not think he’s playing deep third … it looks like Hamlin rotated late

 

i don’t think it’s cover 6 based on outside corners and safeties … it was just a mess … I think it was a lot of Miscommunication 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Buffalo716

[EmotionallyUnstable]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

It looks like they are in a cover 3 look disguised as 2 deep 

 

and there are obviously communication issues but Hamlin looks to be playing the deep third and does not rotate over 

 

I retyped it… I meant it looks like Hamlin is the deep third not poyer

 

There’s clearly a miscommunication issue because poyer absolutely does not think he’s playing deep third … it looks like Hamlin rotated late

 

i don’t think it’s cover 6 based on outside corners and safeties 

If it’s 3, who has the other 3rd? Hamlin, White and ? 
 

Dane is clearly playing outside in while sitting on the flat/out

[Einstein]

If I recall correctly it was Cover 1 disguised as Cover 2 pre-snap. Poyer moves down after the snap, and the Dolphins put Hamlin in conflict by sending two deep middle routes.  

 

Hamlin was to blame, in my opinion, but also not to blame as he was darned if he did and darned if he didn’t. The 2nd deep middle receiver may have been open if Hamlin goes to Waddle.

[without a drought]

Dorsey

[Buffalo716]

Just now, EmotionallyUnstable said:

If it’s 3, who has the other 3rd? Hamlin, White and ? 
 

Dane is clearly playing outside in while sitting on the flat/out

Dane can also be squatting on the route since it’s a TE knowing he can’t be beat vertical … There could also be pattern matching which we don’t know

 

Poyer is not bad enough to play cover 6 like that … when he has half field …It might be cover 4 palms with matching

 

Honestly the more you watch it looks like a blown coverage 

 

 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

32 minutes ago, dma0034 said:

It was on Poyer. Edmunds pointed it out too and Poyer misplayed it

 

 

 

 Was going to post the same thing. Edmunds literally showed Poyer where Waddle's route was going to go and Poyer still messed it up and gave up a td.

 

 

 

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

If I recall correctly it was Cover 1 disguised as Cover 2 pre-snap. Poyer moves down after the snap, and the Dolphins put Hamlin in conflict by sending two deep middle routes.  

 

Hamlin was to blame, in my opinion, but also not to blame as he was darned if he did and darned if he didn’t. The 2nd deep middle receiver may have been open if Hamlin goes to Waddle.

Certainly doesn’t look like Taron Johnson is playing man 

 

 

[Buffalo716]

@EmotionallyUnstable

 

trips ALWAYS changes the principles of your call … there are always checks in place for trips packages which can exploit defensive coverages 

 

I think the back end was not in sync with the check for the formation … the linebacker’s  DID know

[EmotionallyUnstable]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Dane can also be squatting on the route since it’s a TE knowing he can’t be beat vertical … There could also be pattern matching which we don’t know

 

Poyer is not bad enough to play cover 6 like that … when he has half field …It might be cover 4 palms with matching

 

Honestly the more you watch it looks like a blown coverage 

 

 

It’s so hard to tell what the assignment is. Even if you could figure it out, you’re 100% right: there is so much variation based on down and distance, alignment, personnel, etc. the best you can do is guess. 
 

It’s still fun to speculate and look at it through a different viewpoint. 

10 minutes ago, Einstein said:

If I recall correctly it was Cover 1 disguised as Cover 2 pre-snap. Poyer moves down after the snap, and the Dolphins put Hamlin in conflict by sending two deep middle routes.  

 

Hamlin was to blame, in my opinion, but also not to blame as he was darned if he did and darned if he didn’t. The 2nd deep middle receiver may have been open if Hamlin goes to Waddle.

Im not sure where you get cover one from this. What you’re insinuating regarding a Hamlin bind would be a product over cover 3 zone, but running two vertical seams challenging the middle third defender to lean one way. Cover 1 man would undoubtedly have someone matched up on Waddle, even in off coverage.

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

@EmotionallyUnstable

 

trips ALWAYS changes the principles of your call … there are always checks in place for trips packages which can exploit defensive coverages 

 

I think the back end was not in sync with the check for the formation … the linebacker’s  DID know

It’s interesting: You see White clearly point out the drag back into the formation while gaining depth in his drop, Edmunds presnap signaling the seam. It seems well coached, just poorly executed. 

[Motorin']

19 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 Was going to post the same thing. Edmunds literally showed Poyer where Waddle's route was going to go and Poyer still messed it up and gave up a td.

 

 

 

 

Poyer had his eyes on the QB the whole time and didn't seem to watch where the wr was running at all. He was the only guy on the field that didn't match his coverage with the wr entering his zone. Except Hamlin, and he appeared to be playing a deep zone mirroring Hill. 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, dma0034 said:

It was on Poyer. Edmunds pointed it out too and Poyer misplayed it

 

 

I miss Micah

[Motorin']

56 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I miss Micah

 

Everytime I've seen the replay of the Tyreek TD where Hamlin was too late, I  couldn't help but think Micah would have picked that rainbow off just like he did against McCorkle in the playoffs. 

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

It’s so hard to tell what the assignment is. Even if you could figure it out, you’re 100% right: there is so much variation based on down and distance, alignment, personnel, etc. the best you can do is guess. 
 

It’s still fun to speculate and look at it through a different viewpoint. 

Im not sure where you get cover one from this. What you’re insinuating regarding a Hamlin bind would be a product over cover 3 zone, but running two vertical seams challenging the middle third defender to lean one way. Cover 1 man would undoubtedly have someone matched up on Waddle, even in off coverage.

It’s interesting: You see White clearly point out the drag back into the formation while gaining depth in his drop, Edmunds presnap signaling the seam. It seems well coached, just poorly executed. 

Yep … The post play execution is weak 

 

But we have a very complex coverage scheme and these lapses don’t happen too often

[Ethan in Cleveland]

I posted during the game that it looked like Poyer blew his assignment and should have been deeper. 

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

I posted during the game that it looked like Poyer blew his assignment and should have been deeper. 

That’s possible… but it’s an awfully strange coverage that they’re running with two safeties back… Hamlin is rotating deep… 

 

if poyer is also it’s a very strange cover 2 … cover 6 is possible But that would be the biggest blown assignment by Poyer ever … An all pro usually doesn’t forget he’s in two deep coverage and play a robber 

 

unless the players and coaches Tell us … It’s probably a combination coverage with checks that we’re not privy too and a coverage was blown 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

i don’t think it’s cover 6 based on outside corners and safeties … it was just a mess … I think it was a lot of Miscommunication 

 

Yea communication breakdown rather than someone blowing an assignment I think. I agree they were in a cover 1 look some seemed based on the checks to come out of that and others stayed. 

 

It is an example of why Micah and Jordan as a pair are greater than the sum of their parts because in 5 years together they have probably had fewer communication breakdowns than we have had in a single season with that pairing broken up. 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea communication breakdown rather than someone blowing an assignment I think. I agree they were in a cover 1 look some seemed based on the checks to come out of that and others stayed. 

 

It is an example of why Micah and Jordan as a pair are greater than the sum of their parts because in 5 years together they have probably had fewer communication breakdowns than we have had in a single season with that pairing broken up. 

You would expect in a cover 1 robber or 1 hole that Milano would run with the RB not TE tho … 

 

It looks like he’s doing a hook to curl 

 

 

[RocCityRoller]

I don't know the specifics of DB coverage as well as some others, but this thread verifies what my eyes were telling me all game. The safeties felt out of position the whole game.

 

This game may end up being a useful coaching tool to clean up those calls and coverages for the game against Cincy who will deploy three capable WR most of the game.

[Richard Noggin]

Great thread. I'll bet there is outside analysis (Cover-1?) on this particular play that could add a perspective, but not sure I have the focus at this hour to find it.

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Great thread. I'll bet there is outside analysis (Cover-1?) on this particular play that could add a perspective, but not sure I have the focus at this hour to find it.

There is 0 identifiable coverage 

 

it’s obviously miscommunication but probably a combination coverage 

[Richard Noggin]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

There is 0 identifiable coverage 

 

it’s obviously miscommunication but probably a combination coverage 

Agreed. It kind of HAS to be related to the pre-snap communication between Edmunds and Poyer, yes? Or if not, then it's just a blatant blown assignment by a guy who tends not to blow assignments. 

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Agreed. It kind of HAS to be related to the pre-snap communication between Edmunds and Poyer, yes? Or if not, then it's just a blatant blown assignment by a guy who tends not to blow assignments. 

Like most calls, In our complicated coverage scheme… There are checks that get dictated by the offenses formation or personnel 

 

And they adjust based on the look given

 

It’s Not just The trips right that Would definitely signal a check to me… Trips right plus waddle inside 100% check to adjust 

 

but with all the factors it’s impossible to know what they checked too because it’s definitely a combination of things … and I think the roles were lost in communication 

 

 

[Da webster guy]

This exact same play was the reason we lost the 1st game to Miami.  Deep cross wide open Waddle.

 

I was at the Florida game and remember saying theres no way Poyer/Hyde wouldve blown that coverage, then the exact same play hits us again at home w Poyer on the field.  He also took a crappy angle on the Dalvin Cook long TD which he never does.

 

Funny he gets pro bowl in a season with some major errors, and in the past hes played very long stretches of flawless ball and doesnt get the nod.

[babulator]

The only thing for certain is Tremaine saw the lapse and tried to communicate it.

 

Just thought I'd throw that out there +1 Maine 

[Rochesterfan]

 

I am not going to assign blame - I think the Dolphins just had a perfect route combo against a defense and made the play.

 

My guess is if you talked to the players - Poyer would blame himself for coming to far down and not getting back and Hamlin would blame his positioning and his angle, but sometimes the offense wins.

 

It looked like a trick combo coverage - they show a standard 2 high shell, but on the snap rotate to a 1 high safety, but it looks like the intention was for Hamlin to maintain his deep half over the trips side.

 

I think the Bills developed the defense for a formation like that expecting the Dolphins to run a shorter crossing route with Waddle or Hill right into Poyer and Hamlin over the top in case the other Hill or Waddle went deep,

 

In this case, the Dolphins ran Waddle on the deep over and Hill deep at Hamlin and with Poyer rotating up it left the huge gap that Hamlin could not cover.

 

I believe Tremaine (or Tremont if you want to use the name Mark uses) - recognized the spacing and communicated with Poyer and Poyer got over anxious and overplayed his hand and it left the massive hole.  
 

To me it looked like the Bills created a defensive scheme to counter something the Dolphins have done and the Dolphins countered with different patterns and it burned the Bills - no blame - just something that happens from time to time.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Rochesterfan

[ALLEN1QB]

It was my fault got up for a drink instead of staying on the couch....sorry guys

[Robert Paulson]

10 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Every time I've seen the replay of the Tyreek TD where Hamlin was too late, I  couldn't help but think Micah would have picked that rainbow off just like he did against McCorkle in the playoffs. 

same thought here- Micah makes them pay

2 hours ago, babulator said:

The only thing for certain is Tremaine saw the lapse and tried to communicate it.

 

Just thought I'd throw that out there +1 Maine 

i was screaming TIME OUT TIME OUT TIME OUT when i saw Tremaine gesturing but the Ref didn't hear me 

[gonzo1105]

It is defintely zone not man coverage. To me its either Cover 3 with a Robber safety dropping in the hole and Hamlin has to rotate or its Cover 6 and Poyer messes up. If its Cover 6, the Cover 4 is to the field and the Cover 2 is to the boundary which means that Poyer screwed it up. 

 

I believe its Cover 6 because Jackson on the left turns and starts slide stepping reading the QB and his eyes. Hamlin backpedals in a straight fashion and doesn't look like he rotates in the slightest. Milano has the flat on the other side while you see Tre White getting to the deep quarter. I think Poyer got sucked up when he has the deep quarter.

Edited December 22, 2022 by gonzo1105

[John from Riverside]

I have been a Hamlin supporter and I still him. I think he does some nice things on the field. I think he is a solid back up level player, but every time I see a big gain against us in the secondary, I see Hamlin diving at somebody and missing. 

[dave mcbride]

5 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

This exact same play was the reason we lost the 1st game to Miami.  Deep cross wide open Waddle.

 

I was at the Florida game and remember saying theres no way Poyer/Hyde wouldve blown that coverage, then the exact same play hits us again at home w Poyer on the field.  He also took a crappy angle on the Dalvin Cook long TD which he never does.

 

Funny he gets pro bowl in a season with some major errors, and in the past hes played very long stretches of flawless ball and doesnt get the nod.

Poyer didn’t play in the Minnesota game. Do we forget Cam Lewis so easily?

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea communication breakdown rather than someone blowing an assignment I think. I agree they were in a cover 1 look some seemed based on the checks to come out of that and others stayed. 

 

It is an example of why Micah and Jordan as a pair are greater than the sum of their parts because in 5 years together they have probably had fewer communication breakdowns than we have had in a single season with that pairing broken up. 

I think it is more a case of Miami’s ability to run at will finally brought Poyer up to check that, and Miami had the perfect answer. If the Bills had been more effective at stopping the run, these things don’t happen. Good play call by McDaniel, who is a smart offensive mind.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

6 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

This exact same play was the reason we lost the 1st game to Miami.  Deep cross wide open Waddle.

 

I was at the Florida game and remember saying theres no way Poyer/Hyde wouldve blown that coverage, then the exact same play hits us again at home w Poyer on the field.  He also took a crappy angle on the Dalvin Cook long TD which he never does.

 

Funny he gets pro bowl in a season with some major errors, and in the past hes played very long stretches of flawless ball and doesnt get the nod.

 

Poyer didn't play against minnesota, and edmunds was out at that point in the game.  Hamlin made his run fit, i think benford missed the tackle? and dodson had a terrible pursuit angle.  

[John from Riverside]

So I know this is hard to fathom, but sometimes really good players make plays it whenever they play on other teams
 

for some it’s like they don’t even bother to watch other games. All they do is watch the bills and have their mind wrapped around the way that they should be perfect.

[gonzo1105]

10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

So I know this is hard to fathom, but sometimes really good players make plays it whenever they play on other teams
 

for some it’s like they don’t even bother to watch other games. All they do is watch the bills and have their mind wrapped around the way that they should be perfect.

 

I think some people, especially people like myself, who have been in the game a long time as a player(HS,College), a coach(HS), and a Recruiter(College), like to look at things more analytically than the typical fan. 

 

I am not knocking you or anyone else that just watches the game and enjoys it without looking at coverages and what happened wrong etc its just its different when you have been in the game for a long time. 

 

I go to games and I'm not drunk, I don't scream my head off when the Bills are on defense, I'm intently watching what we are doing as a team and what the other team is doing as a team moreso than anything. Of course I cheer if they make a big play or score and hi five but I feel like the average Bills fan thinks i'm weird in the stands with my arms crossed just watching. 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, gonzo1105 said:

 

I think some people, especially people like myself, who have been in the game a long time as a player(HS,College), a coach(HS), and a Recruiter(College), like to look at things more analytically than the typical fan. 

 

I am not knocking you or anyone else that just watches the game and enjoys it without looking at coverages and what happened wrong etc its just its different when you have been in the game for a long time. 

 

I go to games and I'm not drunk, I don't scream my head off when the Bills are on defense, I'm intently watching what we are doing as a team and what the other team is doing as a team moreso than anything. Of course I cheer if they make a big play or score and hi five but I feel like the average Bills fan thinks i'm weird in the stands with my arms crossed just watching. 

My point is, you can take a breakdown in defensive coverage that happens in a bills game and you could turn around and you could watch other teams and they will have the exact same breakdowns more of them even given the defensive ranking of the bills
 

I’m not saying don’t criticize if somebody ***** up they ***** up, but I just wish people would understand that it’s not a bills thing when waddle and he’ll have been terrorizing the fences all year

 

 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

It is defintely zone not man coverage. To me its either Cover 3 with a Robber safety dropping in the hole and Hamlin has to rotate or its Cover 6 and Poyer messes up. If its Cover 6, the Cover 4 is to the field and the Cover 2 is to the boundary which means that Poyer screwed it up. 

 

I believe its Cover 6 because Jackson on the left turns and starts slide stepping reading the QB and his eyes. Hamlin backpedals in a straight fashion and doesn't look like he rotates in the slightest. Milano has the flat on the other side while you see Tre White getting to the deep quarter. I think Poyer got sucked up when he has the deep quarter.

That would be the worst cover six by an all pro ever… He has Half field responsibilities in that

 

It’s almost impossible for a player that caliber to lose track of his Assignment that bad… I’m supposed to have Half field responsibility but I’m gonna sink in and play robber and ignore the call?

 

Also in cover six in the nickel.. On the cover 2 side … You would expect the corner to have the flat… and Milano hook to Seam or curl

 

McDermotts defense is so complex… Rarely is it a straight up look… There are checks and principles to every offensive formation and personnel Including when trips line up

 

When trips lineup… And they’re typically in a cover three look… Whether it’s disguised or not… That would instantly call for a check to a matching principal so they don’t get beat vertically 

 

that could be the miscommunication 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Buffalo716

[gonzo1105]

16 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

That would be the worst cover six by an all pro ever… He has Half field responsibilities in that

 

It’s almost impossible for a player that caliber to lose track of his Assignment that bad… I’m supposed to have Half field responsibility but I’m gonna sink in and play robber and ignore the call?

 

Also in cover six in the nickel.. On the cover 2 side … You would expect the corner to have the flat… and Milano hook to Seam or curl

 

McDermotts defense is so complex… Rarely is it a straight up look… There are checks and principles to every offensive formation and personnel Including when trips line up

 

When trips lineup… And they’re typically in a cover three look… Whether it’s disguised or not… That would instantly call for a check to a matching principal so they don’t get beat vertically 

 

that could be the miscommunication 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So after rewatching it it still look like cover 6 Jackson goes to the flat, Milano does go hook to seam(I got him and Johnson mixed up), Poyer drops in the hole, Hamlin straight backpedals trying to get depth, White is in the Deep Quarter and Johnson chucks and goes to the flat. Seems like some variation of Cover 6 with a Robber Safety. Now maybe its a Cover 6 disguise with a 3 Robber look, I think that is very plausible as well. 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

 

So after rewatching it it still look like cover 6 Jackson goes to the flat, Milano does go hook to seam(I got him and Johnson mixed up), Poyer drops in the hole, Hamlin straight backpedals trying to get depth, White is in the Deep Quarter and Johnson chucks and goes to the flat. Seems like some variation of Cover 6 with a Robber Safety. Now maybe its a Cover 6 disguise with a 3 Robber look, I think that is very plausible as well. 

It could be a cover 6 with a Robber concept expecting a quick hitter up the middle 

 

That does leave the entire deep left half open tho … trips definitely made the secondary make a check at the LoS