Erik Turner: Ken Dorsey bears the brunt of the blame for red zone woes

[Tommy Callahan]

Its not just him.  Have heard a lot of folks like Cover 1 stating our offense is predictable and has gotten much simpler than what debal ran.

[Toyo321]

It just pisses you off when you watch these games and then rewind some of these plays when they get down in the redzone,  and when you as a fan see they have other options underneath for 5 to 8 yards in which Josh and the OC ignore,  these coaches and players are not on same page.   Josh and our OC constantly ignore the players that are open with a higher percentage of gaining 5 to 8 yards if it was selected.  We go down there inside the 20, 1st down pass incomplete, 2nd down play a piss poor run call selection with no motion or pulling on the line that goes for 2 or 3 yards sometimes a loss of yardage up to 5 yards.  The 3rd pass is incomplete because they are forcing the throw into receivers that are covered and its either incomplete or its picked off.  Then the 4th down mistakes speak for themselves.

 

There is such terrible play calling when down in the redzone the percentage of these plays working is got to be less than 40%.

 

Everyone on this forum has seen these bone headed play calls and missed opportunities.   How in the world does the OC & his assistants up in the booth watching this game not see these as we do.   Then try to incorporate that into the game at some point.  There is zero improvising with our OC and his play calling.   It's really like watching a college OC call plays, the same stuff is called over and over that is so generic there is no chance of these plays working against a good team.

 

Dorsey has to start realizing that he is not going to get in trouble running plays from last year's playbook that worked.  Why in the world would he not continue to use what worked and then expand upon that.  It's not like you are going get fined or sued for using plays that were from a previous OC that actually worked.

 

Our coaching is really pathetic and it is the single biggest fault with this team, and it's true on both sides of the ball, Frazier does not get a free pass on this issue either for not adapting his D during games when its sorely needed.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Toyo321

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

On the first INT, McKenzie ran his route OUT OF BOUNDS and then just stood there, OUT OF BOUNDS, keeping his defender (Peterson) in position to make the play.

 

Dorsey is clearly out of his league but there is also a talent problem on offense that many of us were carping about all offseason.

If Mackenzie comes back in and Allen throws to him, it’s a failure on 4th down. I suspect players are coached to stay out in those situations. Allen would have no idea that he gone out of bounds. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

31 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

If he pulls Peterson out of bounds with him, Peterson isn't allowed to touch the ball. It's a niche rule so maybe he didn't know it. But he definitely shouldn't just stand there watching when Peterson intercepts it and runs down the field, like he doesn't even care. Personally I would inactivate McKenzie next week after seeing that on tape. You can't be a clumsy undependable player and also have your head that far out of the game. Send him a message.

 

Then its holding... 

 

Why does Davis get such a pass but Mckenzie get such hate?  

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

10 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Wouldn’t you rather that we did have a HC who was involved with our offense? An Andy Reid or a Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan of sorts? 🤔

Or would you rather have Chan Gailey? Anthony Lynn? Frank Reich? I think we forget the terrible coaches that were here before him, it doesn't give McDermott a free pass but we, including myself might be making too much out of this, every team experiences these types of ups and downs during the season. Now OC Ken Dorsey on the other hand needs to figure things out and quick.

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

Heard a stat on NFL radio about this. They said that it was only the second time in the last 10 years that a QB trying to sneak the ball out of their own EZ fumbled it away for a defensive TD. The crazy thing was that the other time was also Josh Allen. Does anybody else remember that?

Wow when was that?  I was lookin for another similar play in recent history and couldn’t find one.  I couldn’t even find a sneak losing a half yard anywhere on the field for any team 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

On the first INT, McKenzie ran his route OUT OF BOUNDS and then just stood there, OUT OF BOUNDS, keeping his defender (Peterson) in position to make the play.

 

Dorsey is clearly out of his league but there is also a talent problem on offense that many of us were carping about all offseason.

And yet Shakir sees the field now <10 snaps per game? 

 

1. You won't get a concise, open-ended question to Dorsey from our media about this because they are always too concerned about how everyone is feeling.

 

2. McDermott will never address anything football related in a straight forward manner. 

 

So that leaves you with a glacial pace of change with the Bills on personnel usage. 

[HoofHearted]

We're seeing a lot more zone in the Low RZ this year than we have in the past. Dorsey is trying to take advantage of this with the follow concepts, but the spacing has been horrible and the route running has been lazy by the collector (the receiver running the clear) on those concepts. It's also concerning seeing us run a bunch of mesh/shallow concepts and our receivers not recognizing zone vs man. If man they need to continue running the route across the field and run away from the defender in coverage. If zone they need to recognize the soft spots and settle. This is day 1 stuff when these types of concepts are taught. We're so used to getting a ton of mileage out of Beasley on these types of routes, but there's been many times this year where our receivers will continue to work across the field vs zone and essentially run themselves into being covered. Even on our spot concepts I've seen Knox multiple times work to a specific spot on the field and then just sit there even though he's got a backer sitting directly underneath him instead of pushing to the soft spot in the zone.

 

Imo the concepts themselves aren't the issue - or when they're being called - you can see these same concepts being run by every other team in the league every week. They just need to be cleaned up. The spacing, the understanding of rules for man vs. zone, and then the protections to go along with them. It just feels like there's always a misstep by one crucial player every time we get down there.

[HappyDays]

19 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

Then its holding... 

 

A heady player makes sure to subtly bring the DB out of bounds with him. But again I'm not necessarily blaming McKenzie for that, it's a tough play and maybe he doesn't know the rule. The problem is as Peterson intercepts the ball McKenzie still just stands there casually watching him run down field while our QB with an injured elbow makes the extra effort to bring him down. If I'm the coach he's sitting down for the next couple games after that disgusting lack of effort.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

Or would you rather have Chan Gailey? Anthony Lynn? Frank Reich? I think we forget the terrible coaches that were here before him, it doesn't give McDermott a free pass but we, including myself might be making too much out of this, every team experiences these types of ups and downs during the season. Now OC Ken Dorsey on the other hand needs to figure things out and quick.

 

 

Inexcusable to not run the ball one time on 3 plays from 2nd and 2.  If you got sacked or something on 2nd down i could see it, but if you plan on going for it on 4th, run the ball on freaking 3rd.  

 

RPOs are way down, so are PA plays.  His 2021 splits for both are that those are favorable looks for him, yet we call those plays less.   He also has insanely good numbers for both this season... yet we call those plays less.  

 

Other than that numbers are looking fine outside of the turnovers.  Yards per attempt is up, TD% is up, net yards per attempt, rushing yards per attempt, YAC per completion.  He's been pressured a lot less, but sacked a bit more.  

 

Offense just needs some variety.  The drop back and pass from shotgun offense is humming from 20-20. 

 

Last year Allen had 28 TDs and 2 INTs, with another 6 rushing in the RZ.  This year its 12 and 3 with 3 rushing.  Clean up the turnovers, and convert a few more and its literally just as good as last year.  

 

Buffalo had 12 non-allen redzone rushing TDs in 2022, and 5 came in the final 4 weeks.  This year they have 3 non-allen red zone rushing TDs for the entire year through 9 games.  

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

A heady player makes sure to subtly bring the DB out of bounds with him. But again I'm not necessarily blaming McKenzie for that, it's a tough play and maybe he doesn't know the rule. The problem is as Peterson intercepts the ball McKenzie still just stands there casually watching him run down field while our QB with an injured elbow makes the extra effort to bring him down. If I'm the coach he's sitting down for the next couple games after that disgusting lack of effort.

 

I'm not sitting down one of the few weapons that has worked inside 10 yards (4 of 11 TDs).  It was a terrible playcall on 4th and 2.  No Mesh, no rub routes, no stick route.  The play was literally designed for allen to run around instead of just getting the ball out quick which is what teams normally want to do in the RZ.  

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Kinda wonder if Allen forced that last throw to Gabe because he knew the options start looking meager if they had just plodded down to inside the 10. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

11 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Kinda wonder if Allen forced that last throw to Gabe because he knew the options start looking meager if they had just plodded down to inside the 10. 

 

It was a really bad play.  They flushed him and played contain.  His best choice was probably to not go right and to cut back left.  

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, Lost said:

 

Can we just hire this dude to be our OC?

 

After watching that video, a lot of the problem is simply Allen.

 

Dorsey isn’t helping, but my goodness is Allen missing a lot of throws.

[HoofHearted]

28 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

I'm not sitting down one of the few weapons that has worked inside 10 yards (4 of 11 TDs).  It was a terrible playcall on 4th and 2.  No Mesh, no rub routes, no stick route.  The play was literally designed for allen to run around instead of just getting the ball out quick which is what teams normally want to do in the RZ.  

Well that's not true at all. It was a called mesh concept (which by designs incorporates a rub) and also featured a stick/spot concept with Knox.

 

EDIT: Read was Rail > Spot > Shallow. Vikings played zone and everything was thrown off because of pressure and receivers not finding the soft spots in the zone.

Edited November 17, 2022 by HoofHearted

[Einstein]

7 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

After watching that video, a lot of the problem is simply Allen.

 

Dorsey isn’t helping, but my goodness is Allen missing a lot of throws.

 

For example, this interception is not on Dorsey’s play calling. This is on Allen.

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

16 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Well that's not true at all. It was a called mesh concept (which by designs incorporates a rub) and also featured a stick/spot concept with Knox.

 

EDIT: Read was Rail > Spot > Shallow. Vikings played zone and everything was thrown off because of pressure and receivers not finding the soft spots in the zone.

 

And he flushed himself right which gave him exactly 1 target.  Correct on the mesh call - i dont like how everyone ends up in the end zone though.  Also, what the heck is davis doing... again.  

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2022/11/16/23460413/bills-red-zone-offense-josh-allen-patrick-peterson-interception

Edited November 17, 2022 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[HoofHearted]

16 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

And he flushed himself right which gave him exactly 1 target.  Correct on the mesh call - i dont like how everyone ends up in the end zone though.  

Was forced to flush right because of the pressure. You flush to the side contain was lost on. The balls at the 6. Aren't many routes in the route tree under 6 yards. 🤷‍♂️

 

EDIT: Davis is setting up the rub. They're anticipating man down here to set the pick so Diggs can be wide open, once he recognizes it's not man he continues to work his shallow.

Edited November 17, 2022 by HoofHearted

[BarleyNY]

58 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Wow when was that?  I was lookin for another similar play in recent history and couldn’t find one.  I couldn’t even find a sneak losing a half yard anywhere on the field for any team 

I couldn’t remember it either. It didn’t seem like something they’d make up, but I thought maybe I heard it wrong. I thought somebody here would remember if it happened. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

14 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Was forced to flush right because of the pressure. You flush to the side contain was lost on. The balls at the 6. Aren't many routes in the route tree under 6 yards. 🤷‍♂️

 

EDIT: Davis is setting up the rub. They're anticipating man down here to set the pick so Diggs can be wide open, once he recognizes it's not man he continues to work his shallow.

 

I can see it - defense disguised their coverage a bit and had Allen fooled. A junky 2nd down play.  Just a messy 3 play sequence, Allen has to be better.  Dorsey can't burn a play on a weird PA screen either.  There's gotta be a balance between, allen needs the ball he's our best guy - and we need the ball out quick or run it because of how the opposition is playing us.  

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Too many players running in the same direction, ending up in similar spots. 

 

The field gets smushed on roll outs because the sideline becomes a defender. 

 

Allen doesn't have anywhere to go on a lot of these. 

 

There is nothing easy. 

 

So we're going to do the Mike Schopp method of just run Josh Allen every play goal to go. 

[HoofHearted]

6 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I can see it - defense disguised their coverage a bit and had Allen fooled. A junky 2nd down play.  Just a messy 3 play sequence, Allen has to be better.  Dorsey can't burn a play on a weird PA screen either.  There's gotta be a balance between, allen needs the ball he's our best guy - and we need the ball out quick or run it because of how the opposition is playing us.  

 

 

 

Junky because the defensive end sniffed it out and it didn't work, but the concept was good. 2nd and 2 and you show Trap (which is what Singletary had the big run on earlier) with the blocking scheme to pull the inside backer away from the screen. If their end is lined up in anything other than a 9 tech it's likely an easy completion for a first down because of the misdirection. For those talking about lack of creativity this play contradicts that notion.

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

And yet Shakir sees the field now <10 snaps per game? 

 

1. You won't get a concise, open-ended question to Dorsey from our media about this because they are always too concerned about how everyone is feeling.

 

2. McDermott will never address anything football related in a straight forward manner. 

 

So that leaves you with a glacial pace of change with the Bills on personnel usage. 

If a player gets run out of bounds like Mackenzie did, the stupidest thing to do is come back on the field and present himself as a legitimate target, especially on 4th down. He did the right thing there.

[Paup 1995MVP]

11 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Those were both blown plays by Allen imo…although there’s probably plenty of evidence of suspect playcalling by Dorsey I’m sure.  Peterson is kind of full of sh*t there lol 

 

allen had gabe in the back of the end zone for a likely td with minimal risk of anything worse than an incompletion and he completely missed the throw.  
The route concept was perfect  against that defense and Peterson was beat by a step

 

 

the sneak I still believe was the right call Allen just botched that one too…doesn’t at all matter that they telegraphed it.  When have you seen a sneak lose a half yard in nfl history even if the defense is loaded up to stop it and that’s before you could even get leverage from someone pushing from behind.   I think Allen was looking ahead and trying to take away some of the potential difficulty of the following play on the off chance they lost some fraction of a yard and he tried to run before securing the snap. 
 

 

On the pick at the end of OT, you can see Morris #85 dragging across the middle at the 5 yard line.  It was an easy throw and would have given us a 1st down at around the 3-4 yard line.  And Singletary was open in the rt flat and would have gotten at least to the 12 yard line.  Instead Josh got tunnel vision and choked.  He is pressing at times, and needs to start playing within himself when he is passing the ball.  He looked calm as can be on the last drive in regulation that tied the game.  And his running has never been better then it was against the Vikings.  He just needs to relax and stop pressing in the red zone.  

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

13 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

 

Can we adjust? 

Pretty damning.

 

"Its like the defense knows what is coming"

 

Check out the 13:18 mark of the video.

 

Defenses (Miami and KC) are reading what is happening on the field and completely shutting it down

 

[GunnerBill]

He isn't wrong. Dorsey has been disappointing IMO.

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

He isn't wrong. Dorsey has been disappointing IMO.

 

In the RZ but we have the #1 offense in the NFL at over 424 yards and #2 in scoring.  It's not all bad.

 

The answer to the RZ problems?

 

QB Power/QB Pin and Pull from inside the 10 yard line once every series.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Big Turk

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

On the pick at the end of OT, you can see Morris #85 dragging across the middle at the 5 yard line.  It was an easy throw and would have given us a 1st down at around the 3-4 yard line.  And Singletary was open in the rt flat and would have gotten at least to the 12 yard line.  Instead Josh got tunnel vision and choked.  He is pressing at times, and needs to start playing within himself when he is passing the ball.  He looked calm as can be on the last drive in regulation that tied the game.  And his running has never been better then it was against the Vikings.  He just needs to relax and stop pressing in the red zone.  

Yes he's pressing and it's obvious to anyone.  That's what happens when he's expected to be 92% of the offense. Run more. Checkdown more. And eventually your deeper throws to Diggs & Gabe will open up and return. 

[pocoboy]

13 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

The most concerning plays, to me, were two game-changers that displayed an obvious preparation deficiency for the Bills: the backed-up, goal line sneak where Gabe Davis's motion absolutely telegraphed the snap (based on film study) AND the last, OT interception, about which Patrick Peterson admits he knew the route to undercut based on film study. 

 

Just arrogance mostly. Self-scout. It shouldn't take another team's exploitation to realize you have tells. There should be people on the rolls whose job is to identify this stuff so you aren't caught with your pants down. I have felt that Daboll, coming from NE, did this himself.

[T master]

14 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Wouldn’t you rather that we did have a HC who was involved with our offense? An Andy Reid or a Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan of sorts? 🤔

 

Belichek is a HC with a extensive defensive back ground and he's won more SB's than most .. Just saying .

[Victory Formation]

6 minutes ago, T master said:

 

Belichek is a HC with a extensive defensive back ground and he's won more SB's than most .. Just saying .

McD doesn’t coach defenses as good as Bellyacher does, nor should you assume that Belichick knows nothing of offenses.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

McD doesn’t coach defenses as good as Bellyacher does, nor should you assume that Belichick knows nothing of offenses.

 

Belichick is the best ever. But McDermott is a top 3 defensive mind in the NFL. 

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

McD doesn’t coach defenses as good as Bellyacher does, nor should you assume that Belichick knows nothing of offenses.

This notion that defensive coaches know nothing about offense baffles me... how can you defend something you know nothing about?

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Imo the concepts themselves aren't the issue - or when they're being called - you can see these same concepts being run by every other team in the league every week. They just need to be cleaned up. The spacing, the understanding of rules for man vs. zone, and then the protections to go along with them. It just feels like there's always a misstep by one crucial player every time we get down there.

 

We've had this issue since Daboll was the OC. Too many times Allen and his intended target are not on the same page. I've wondered if maybe we have the wrong players for the system we run? It requires cerebral WRs. That's why Julian Edelman was a star in the system, not because of his abilities but because he knew the system so well and played off of Brady to perfection. Guys like Davis and Knox don't strike me as cerebral pass catchers, they are physical freaks. Ideally you'd want them winning with their athleticism and not thinking too much. Diggs fits the system well, I think Shakir could too with some seasoning, but I'm not sure about the other guys.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by HappyDays

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

We've had this issue since Daboll was the OC. Too many times Allen and his intended target are not on the same page. I've wondered if maybe we have the wrong players for the system we run? It requires cerebral WRs. That's why Julian Edelman was a star in the system, not because of his abilities but because he knew the system so well and played off of Brady to perfection. Guys like Davis and Knox don't strike me as cerebral pass catchers, they are physical freaks. Ideally you'd want them winning with their athleticism and not thinking too much. Diggs fits the system well, I think Shakir could too with some seasoning, but I'm not sure about the other guys.

 

If Gronk can determine the difference between man or zone on the fly then anyone can 😆

[ColoradoBills]

Dorsey started out great.

After a few games the DCs got film on him.

He needs to counter to protect what was working.

Bills needs to add other schemes to his attack.

It's rinse and repeat for any good OC.

 

That's how I see it.  It seems pretty obvious. 

[Victory Formation]

15 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This notion that defensive coaches know nothing about offense baffles me... how can you defend something you know nothing about?

Do you really think that McD knows offenses well? I love the Bills as much as you do, but don’t expect me to like everything about them like some sweaty Bills Mafia meatball.

[T master]

1 minute ago, Victory Formation said:

McD doesn’t coach defenses as good as Bellyacher does, nor should you assume that Belichick knows nothing of offenses.

 

I didn't say that he does coach as good as BB or that BB doesn't know anything about offense was just replying to your reply . But how long did it take BB to get to where he is now in comparison to how long McD has been a HC hands on knowledge & in game experience can not be replaces by book study .

 

As a matter of fact he being more of a defensive minded coach which is where he got his start & has most of his historical back ground in since being in the NFL has more wins & more SB's than any offensive minded coach ever such as Andy Ried, Coryell, or most nay other that we could think of ..

 

So just as a reply to your question of ;

 

"Wouldn't you rather have a HC who was involved with our offense ? An Andy Reid or a Sean Mcvay or a Kyle Shanahan of sorts ?"

 

I was just pointing out that just because they are career oriented as a Offensive minded HC that it doesn't necessarily mean that a offense will do better with them at the helm over a D minded coach that's all .

 

But the head coach definitely needs to have the right person in that position & it would help like Bekichek that you know a bit about offense being the "Head Coach" of the team .

 

https://www.windycitygridiron.com/2013/1/9/3857920/do-defensive-coaches-win-super-bowls

 

Here's a little something to read it tells more in depth about coaching in general and their back grounds to determine your own opinion of who is the best for the job .

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

If a player gets run out of bounds like Mackenzie did, the stupidest thing to do is come back on the field and present himself as a legitimate target, especially on 4th down. He did the right thing there.

I have no issue with that. We all know that rule. 

 

Watching on TV and this All-22 Analysis line up. 

 

There is nowhere for Allen to go when throwing in Goal to Go situations. 

 

Guys are covered, the spacing stinks, plays take too long to develop, and there are no underneath throws to make. 

 

So this all goes back on Allen to always make the right decision, or run more. 

 

Plus, the coaching staff is now too good for FGs and instead goes for it when already up multiple scores. 

[JohnNord]

15 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

 

Can we adjust? 

I was skeptical of Erik Turner but he does a bang up job with these film reviews and he definitely knows his *****.  Now Bills players are actually taking notice.  Looking forward to watching this 

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Do you really think that McD knows offenses well? I love the Bills as much as you do, but don’t expect me to like everything about them like some sweaty Bills Mafia meatball.

Yes. You cannot be a successful defensive coordinator if you don't understand what offenses are doing and what the rules are within the schemes they are attacking you with.