The defense sucked....again

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Huh?

 

It clearly did not cost them the game as the the Vikings didn't score!  They turned it over on downs (aided by the Bills D with 12 men on the field).  

 

The Bills had 2 more possessions in regulation--the one leading, one behind.  The fumble in the EZ cost them the game in regulation.

 

The lazy int toss by Josh cost them the game in OT.

 

What are you talking about?

The 12 men on the field play was in OT — the play where Cook lost 3 yards on first and goal from the 2. If the penalty is called, it’s first and goal from the one and they probably score.

[transient]

59 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Huh?

 

It clearly did not cost them the game as the the Vikings didn't score!  They turned it over on downs (aided by the Bills D with 12 men on the field).  

 

The Bills had 2 more possessions in regulation--the one leading, one behind.  The fumble in the EZ cost them the game in regulation.

 

The lazy int toss by Josh cost them the game in OT.

 

What are you talking about?

Are you trying to play devil's advocate here? If Lewis bats the ball down the game is over. The Vikings were out of time outs and the Bills run out the clock. If that ball is not completed the Bills win, plain and simple. It cost them the game.

 

Edit: My mistake, the Vikings had 1 time out, but the point still stands. If the Bills gain a first down the game is over, and if they don't they're punting with seconds left on the clock. Regardless, the degree to which you are trying to overlook the gravity of Lewis's mistake is puzzling to me.

 

Edit #2: The ball is at the Vikings' 25 yd line. If the Bills don't get a 1st to ice the game they're already in FG range. I stand by my assessment that if Lewis makes the smart play the game is over.

Edited November 14, 2022 by transient

[CSBill]

Going into this game (with all the uncertainties at QB), I thought this is one the Defense needs to win for us.

 

They didn’t. 
 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by CSBill

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

15 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Come on.  It's not "inexplicable".  That ball was sailing over Jeffersons head--naturally the DB is going to put his hands together thinking he's catching an INT.  Jefferson makes an insane catch.  That's not one I'm putting on Lewis.  

 

Punch that ball to the effing ground.  I'm putting that one on Lewis.

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, CSBill said:

Going into this game (with all the uncertainties at QB), I thought this is one the Defense needs to win for us.

 

They didn’t. 
 

 

 

Hold a team to 23 and create two turnovers in the process. In this day and age that's a solid defensive outing. The issue was we turned the ball over 4 times.

[Jerome007]

15 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

Are Tim Settle and DaQuan Jones playing?

 

Didn’t notice them at all.  

The D Line were monsters at putting pressures on QBs to start the year. Since? They are average now, at best. The secondary got burned bad yesterday but HELP THEM. They are mostly rookies. 

[nosejob]

1 hour ago, ALLinALLEN said:

 

 

I would start by maybe blitzing an immobile QB to force more passes into severely inexperienced DB's who struggle to cover. That would be a pretty easy start. But Frazier will die on the "I dont blitz" hill for some reason. 

 

 

Amen, I'm pretty sure I only saw one blitz in the 1st half....and nowhere's near enough in the 2nd. If you have rookies and backups playing knowing the Vikings game plan revolves around Jefferson, Hotch and Cook, you don't give a pedestrian QB all day to throw.

 

Last year we had the likes of Harry , Starr, Addison and Butler and our rush four only ain't much better. The absolute pig headed stubbornness to not try to get creative pressure is maddening.

 

If McD doesn't step in and do something about this 1990 Defensive game planning, Brissett will also look like Mahommes and he's sure as Hell a lot more mobile than Cousins.

[HoofHearted]

1 minute ago, nosejob said:

Amen, I'm pretty sure I only saw one blitz in the 1st half....and nowhere's near enough in the 2nd. If you have rookies and backups playing knowing the Vikings game plan revolves around Jefferson, Hotch and Cook, you don't give a pedestrian QB all day to throw.

 

Last year we had the likes of Harry , Starr, Addison and Butler and our rush four only ain't much better. The absolute pig headed stubbornness to not try to get creative pressure is maddening.

 

If McD doesn't step in and do something about this 1990 Defensive game planning, Brissett will also look like Mahommes and he's sure as Hell a lot more mobile than Cousins.

This is simply not true.

[transient]

37 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

The D Line were monsters at putting pressures on QBs to start the year. Since? They are average now, at best. The secondary got burned bad yesterday but HELP THEM. They are mostly rookies. 

The D line were monsters at the start of the year because the secondary was able to give them that extra half second to get home with lockdown coverage.

[RyanC883]

5 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

 

What's the adjustment that should be made to stop that run yesterday?

When you are out of phase this is what is taught - play the receivers hands not the ball.

 

the adjustment to stop the run?   Better tackling fundamentals, safety in the box.  And you only “face-guard” a WR if you are way out of position. Jackson was not. 

[CincyBillsFan]

As others have pointed out the 81 yard TD run was the worst thing to happen to the Bills on Sunday and that includes the two fumbles and two INT's. 

 

*  The Bills had just taken a commanding 27 - 10 lead and one play later the momentum was flipped.

*  There will be lots of NFL games this season with red zone interceptions and fumbles recovered for TD's. But I bet this will be by far the longest TD run.

*  To allow the Vikings back in the game on an off tackle 81 yard TD run was a disgrace.

 

I keep hearing people say that the Bills offense had plenty of opportunities to put the Vikings away.  Well guess what they did when they went up 27 - 10 late n the 3rd quarter at home.  That should have put the Vikings away.

 

I think that the defenses inability to consistently get off the field while also giving up the big play AFTER the Bills O takes a big lead:  see 24 -7; 27 - 10 against GB, 14 - 3 against the Jets and 27 - 10 against the Vikes, puts pressure on Allen and the O to get that last score to end the game.  And with an anemic running game unable to grind out a drive it places huge pressure on Allen and he makes mistakes. 

 

This is different then a shoot out where each team is going up and down the field.  It's trying to clinch the game while protecting a big lead and not making any mistakes in doing it. 

 

The defense is a much bigger problem then their ranking indicates. 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 hours ago, transient said:

Are you trying to play devil's advocate here? If Lewis bats the ball down the game is over. The Vikings were out of time outs and the Bills run out the clock. If that ball is not completed the Bills win, plain and simple. It cost them the game.

 

Edit: My mistake, the Vikings had 1 time out, but the point still stands. If the Bills gain a first down the game is over, and if they don't they're punting with seconds left on the clock. Regardless, the degree to which you are trying to overlook the gravity of Lewis's mistake is puzzling to me.

 

Edit #2: The ball is at the Vikings' 25 yd line. If the Bills don't get a 1st to ice the game they're already in FG range. I stand by my assessment that if Lewis makes the smart play the game is over.

The Lewis play on the ball ultimately pulled down by Jefferson was both unfortunate and rare because there are few plays on intermediate to deep balls where the Bills CB's actually turn and see the ball coming.  The play was one of several where the Vikings got bailed out on long yardage to go for a first down.  

The thing is with all the starters out the Bills secondary just isn't good in pass coverage or for that matter run support.  In fact, I'd say this back up group gives the Bills a bottom 10 in the league secondary.  Getting the injured players back will fix a lot of this problem.

With that my big bone to pick is with Frazier.  When Cousins had time and when his receivers had time to run their deeper routes, they were very successful.  Yet he refused, just refused to bring any pressure on the QB in this 3rd or 4th and long situations. It's like Leslie just has no ability to situationally approach the specific conditions and circumstances.  Just keep rushing 4 and let the QB pick apart our depleted secondary.  Dorsey is the opposite.  While Frazier refuses to take a lot of chances Dorsey takes too many.  Its up to McDermott to level the two off in the middle.  But will he? 

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Huh?

 

It clearly did not cost them the game as the the Vikings didn't score!  They turned it over on downs (aided by the Bills D with 12 men on the field).  

 

The Bills had 2 more possessions in regulation--the one leading, one behind.  The fumble in the EZ cost them the game in regulation.

 

The lazy int toss by Josh cost them the game in OT.

 

What are you talking about?

I disagree.  The 81 yard TD run immediately after the Bills had taken a commanding 27 - 10 lead late in the 3rd quarter cost them the game. Everything after that was window dressing. 

 

Had the Vikings taken 5 or 6 minutes to drive for that TD then the lead would have been cut to ten with about 11 - 12 minutes left.  Then the Bills likely would have kicked the FG to take a 13 point lead halfway through the 4th quarter after their drive stalled.  The long TD run was a back breaker responsible for everything that followed.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

The 12 men on the field play was in OT — the play where Cook lost 3 yards on first and goal from the 2. If the penalty is called, it’s first and goal from the one and they probably score.

 

correct.

 

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, transient said:

Are you trying to play devil's advocate here? If Lewis bats the ball down the game is over. The Vikings were out of time outs and the Bills run out the clock. If that ball is not completed the Bills win, plain and simple. It cost them the game.

 

Edit: My mistake, the Vikings had 1 time out, but the point still stands. If the Bills gain a first down the game is over, and if they don't they're punting with seconds left on the clock. Regardless, the degree to which you are trying to overlook the gravity of Lewis's mistake is puzzling to me.

 

Edit #2: The ball is at the Vikings' 25 yd line. If the Bills don't get a 1st to ice the game they're already in FG range. I stand by my assessment that if Lewis makes the smart play the game is over.

 

No I'm pointing out that the result of the 4th and 18 was no points scored by the Vikings.  The Bills still led with under a minute to go and the ball.  In the heat of the moment, a DB was making a play on the ball.  It's not as bizarre as you are desperate to make it.

 

While "knocking down the ball" may have ended the game.  Failing to do so clearly did not cost them the game.  That could have won but for actual boneheaded errors that followed and actually cost them the game.  

 

 

[HoofHearted]

3 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

the adjustment to stop the run?   Better tackling fundamentals, safety in the box.  And you only “face-guard” a WR if you are way out of position. Jackson was not. 

Better tackling fundamentals is not an adjustment you can make in game. Putting a Safety in the box is completely dependent on the offensive formation. And if you are out of phase with a receiver - meaning your shoulder is not on top of his DBs are taught to play the hands.

[LABILLBACKER]

6 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Punch that ball to the effing ground.  I'm putting that one on Lewis.

I don't want to see Cam Lewis or Juquan Johnson play another snap. If you want to bury em on ST fine. Pass rush didn't even touch Cousins till halfway into the 4th qtr. 

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

. Pass rush didn't even touch Cousins till halfway into the 4th qtr. 

 

This is not true at all.

Oliver was banging on him all game and he also got tagged multiple times by several other defenders.

[gobills404]

 

[RyanC883]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

Better tackling fundamentals is not an adjustment you can make in game. Putting a Safety in the box is completely dependent on the offensive formation. And if you are out of phase with a receiver - meaning your shoulder is not on top of his DBs are taught to play the hands.

 

so why did we get gashed in the running game AGAIN in the second half.  

 

you are not taught to play the hands.  that is a clear way to get a PI at best unless extremely lucky.  Turn around, play the ball, and any contact is permitted.  What Jackson did was faceguarding. 

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

This is not true at all.

Oliver was banging on him all game and he also got tagged multiple times by several other defenders.

AJ Epenesa got a QB hit + a sack.

Boogie Basham got a QB hit + a sack.

Von Miller 2 QB hits + a sack.

Shaq Lawson got 2 QB hits. 05 sack.

Ed Oliver got 4 QB hits .5 sack. 

 

10 QB hits, 4 sacks

[HoofHearted]

8 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

so why did we get gashed in the running game AGAIN in the second half.  

 

you are not taught to play the hands.  that is a clear way to get a PI at best unless extremely lucky.  Turn around, play the ball, and any contact is permitted.  What Jackson did was faceguarding. 

A missed tackle, but that’s not something that you can adjust in-game like I said. It’s taught over a period of time.

 

I don’t know how to make it any more clear to you that if a DB is out of phase with a receiver they are taught to play through the receivers hands. If you don’t want to agree with me then that’s fine, but that’s literally what they are taught.

 

Also faceguarding is not a thing.

[RyanC883]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

A missed tackle, but that’s not something that you can adjust in-game like I said. It’s taught over a period of time.

 

I don’t know how to make it any more clear to you that if a DB is out of phase with a receiver they are taught to play through the receivers hands. If you don’t want to agree with me then that’s fine, but that’s literally what they are taught.

 

Also faceguarding is not a thing.

 

 

 

faceguarding IS a thing.   Required contact (becomes PI above HS).  

 

https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/691/ask-the-official-face-guarding-in-itself-is-illegal-only-within-high-school-rules

 

Jackson was not out if phase.  He simply had poor technique.  

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

 

 

faceguarding IS a thing.   Required contact (becomes PI above HS).  

 

https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/691/ask-the-official-face-guarding-in-itself-is-illegal-only-within-high-school-rules

 

Jackson was not out if phase.  He simply had poor technique.  

Come on man… people are that lazy?

 

”Many people mistakenly called this face guarding, but there is no rule against face guarding in the NFL. The defender doesn't really have to turn and look for the ball as long as he doesn't forcibly contact the receiver.”

 

it’s the first thing that pops up if you Google it…

 

and he was out of phase - this conversation is pointless though.

[RyanC883]

Just now, HoofHearted said:

Come on man… people are that lazy?

 

”Many people mistakenly called this face guarding, but there is no rule against face guarding in the NFL. The defender doesn't really have to turn and look for the ball as long as he doesn't forcibly contact the receiver.”

 

it’s the first thing that pops up if you Google it…

 

and he was out of phase - this conversation is pointless though.

 

I said there was no rule against it, and that it requires contact in the NFL.  Actually read what I wrote.  He had poor positioning and was in phase. Period.  He needed to turn his head, and he had a play on the ball.  Instead, TD.  

[HoofHearted]

9 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

I said there was no rule against it, and that it requires contact in the NFL.  Actually read what I wrote.  He had poor positioning and was in phase. Period.  He needed to turn his head, and he had a play on the ball.  Instead, TD.  

Bro, he was behind the receiver!!! By definition this is out of phase! 🤣

Edited November 15, 2022 by HoofHearted

[MPT]

On 11/14/2022 at 7:44 AM, Mr. WEO said:

 

Nah, Tre's not taking that ball away from Jefferson.

 

there was never a point where there were not 3 hands on the ball.  Jefferson in front of Lewis had position to pull it away.  It would have been a n insane INT if Lewis came down with it.

 

It wouldn't have been an "insane" INT. The ball was thrown right to him. He had two hands on the ball all the way to the ground and Jefferson pulled it away with one hand. If anything, he just helped Jefferson catch the ball. It would have been extremely easy to knock the ball away or pull it away from Jefferson. He didn't do either because he was more focused on the catch than the situation.

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, MPT said:

 

It wouldn't have been an "insane" INT. The ball was thrown right to him. He had two hands on the ball all the way to the ground and Jefferson pulled it away with one hand. If anything, he just helped Jefferson catch the ball. It would have been extremely easy to knock the ball away or pull it away from Jefferson. He didn't do either because he was more focused on the catch than the situation.

 

worse take yet.  congrats.

[MPT]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

worse take yet.  congrats.

 

It's not a take. That's just what happened. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, MPT said:

 

It's not a take. That's just what happened. 

 

the ball was thrown right to him, he had both hands on it the whole time, yet he couldn't make the catch because he was too focused on the catch.

 

ok

[MPT]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

the ball was thrown right to him, he had both hands on it the whole time, yet he couldn't make the catch because he was too focused on the catch.

 

ok

 

Yes, he was too focused on making an interception and didn't either a) knock the ball down or b) realize Jefferson was making a play on the ball and secure it better.

 

He said himself in an interview that he thought the ball was over Jefferson's head and made a mistake.

Edited November 16, 2022 by MPT

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

Yes, he was too focused on making an interception and didn't either a) knock the ball down or b) realize Jefferson was making a play on the ball and secure it better.

 

there were never fewer than 3 hands on that ball the whole time.

 

You need a bigger TV

[MPT]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

there were never fewer than 3 hands on that ball the whole time.

 

You need a bigger TV

 

Yeah, that's what I've been saying. Lewis had two hands on it, Jefferson had one. If you can't read my posts then don't waste my time replying to them.

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, MPT said:

 

Yeah, that's what I've been saying. Lewis had two hands on it, Jefferson had one. If you can't read my posts then don't waste my time replying to them.

 

'you said it would have been an extremely easy INT.  no chance that's true

[Eastport bills]

Does anyone deny Edmunds importance to this flawed defense. With his influence on the run and underneath passing game coupled with Milano, we will be competitive. The secondary must improve and get solid coaching. 

[MPT]

13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

'you said it would have been an extremely easy INT.  no chance that's true

 

Look, I'm sorry you can't read but please stop. Lewis made a mistake. End of story.

[Billever76]

On 11/13/2022 at 9:37 PM, SirAndrew said:

The 80 yard touchdown run was inexcusable. You can’t give up that type of play on the ground with a lead. If the opponent is going to run, at least make them use up some clock. The defense is quite depleted, but we constantly give up big runs. It reminded me of the long run Taylor had for the Colts when we got crushed at home last season. Being dominated by the run and giving up long runs has been a theme, regardless of who’s on the field. That’s a scheme/coaching issue imo. 

Or the long run by the pats rb in the wind game that sealed the deal....or the long Henry run against titans that pretty much sealed the deal....but wait there is more...Houston wildcard game ot loss....hail murray......13 seconds and now the sneak......ladies and gents we have a coaching problem...problem is we can't just fix that...I hope and pray they prove me wrong but 2020 afccg was peak ceiling of this staff...now throw in a rookie oc ....I'd be highly surprised a first year OC wins the superbowl smh

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

Look, I'm sorry you can't read but please stop. Lewis made a mistake. End of story.

 

it's painful sometimes---reading can be a curse

[GreggTX]

I'll tell you what the hallmark of a good defense is since you're asking -- 2 probowl safeties, an all pro CB, 2 1st round picks from the last 2 years and another 1st rounder from 4 years ago. Again, what's the mystery?

[purple haze]

On 11/14/2022 at 6:16 AM, Billz4ever said:

Most of that is due to the fact Frazier rarely blitzes and seems to be fine with rushing 4 and not getting pressure.  Tells me he's scared to death of his secondary and thinks we need 7 in coverage every play.

Same D he’s run from the beginning of his and McD’s tenure.  The same D McD ran in Carolina.  It’s not fear; they believe in a 4 man rush with a rotation of D lineman.  You don’t have to like it but it is a defensive principal they believe in.